The Stealthiest Stealther

[lordkronos187]

in short i would like to optimize my halfling rogues ability to stay out of sight in as many ways as possible. every min/max, or optimal build focuses heavily on combat and frankly i dont have to. in combat i can get around and provide support but this characters goal is staying out of sight and collecting information.

its a table top Pathfinder game, all Paizo material allowed and im 2nd level rogue. i looked at master spy and its great for going undetected but i didnt feel like it adds enough to stealthing around or getting out of sticky situations. i hear the shadowdancer is garbage but i feel like people say that because of the lack of combat abilities, but maybe its good for my characters motives? i dont know. id really apreciate opinions.

oh and back in 3.5 there were books that had mundane items that added all sorts of random bonuses to skill checks. does pathfinder have that? like ninja tabi that add +1 stealth, and things of the like?

[HylianKnight]

It all depends on what you want to do with the Shadowdancer. It's garbage for any min/max optimizer, but honestly it's probably my favorite prestige class for how fun and flavorful it is to play. If you're just looking for tools to make your character more stealthy, then a one level dip is the way to go.

If you're looking for a prestige class to go into, then you have to be a little bit more careful with the Rogue-Shadowdancer progression. One, Shadowdancer's don't get Sneak Attack dice, so be wary of that. You say you're not necessary looking to combat focused tough, so HiPS combined with shadow jumping along with being able to cast shadow illusion/call/power can be insanely useful.

Note that if you do Shadowdancer beyond 1st level you'll want to have a Rogue archetype. You get evasion and uncanny dodge from the prestige class, which is useless as a rogue since you already get those. Being something like the Scout archetype means you're gaining more abilities and benefits from advancing through Shadowdancer, which is a good thing. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes

Finally, note that Shadowdancer class abilities are Charisma-based (excellent since you're a halfling), and to get the most out of it you'd want to wait to progress passed 2nd level until you're a level 10 rogue so you can choose from the Advanced Rogue Talents with those shadowdancer levels (absolutely not a requirement though).

For other ways to increase stealth, a cheap Cloak of Elvenkind will get a +5 bonus. At higher levels it can be replaced with armor with the shadow enchantement (it's the same bonus so they wouldn't stack). Taking the feats Skill Focus (Stealth) and Stealthy are practically a requirement for you then. Remember that in Pathfinder the max ranks you can take is equal to your character level, which means those bonuses are no joke, and any edge over your opponents perception modifier is huge. Also the feats themselves get a boast, doubling when you get 10 ranks in the skill.

Assuming you have an 18 Dex, at level five taking those two feats and getting that cloak will give you a Stealth mod of: 4+5 (ranks)+2+3+5+3 (class skill) = 22. And that's before your roll, and you're at 5th level.

Other random boosts include taking 1 level of the Inquisitor archetype Inquisitor to add your Wisdom mod to your stealth if that happens to be high. Taking a level of arcane bloodline sorcerer (or wizard) gets you a familiar, the Cat gives you a +3 stealth bonus.

Finally in the most recent printing of the Core Rule Book, they slightly changed the stealth rules (a good thing!) to make it clear that by using stealth you can remain hidden until you explicitly do something to change that. So just make sure you're using the latest updates (found here: http://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj) as they'll help you tremendously.

[lordkronos187]

It all depends on what you want to do with the Shadowdancer. It's garbage for any min/max optimizer, but honestly it's probably my favorite prestige class for how fun and flavorful it is to play. If you're just looking for tools to make your character more stealthy, then a one level dip is the way to go.

If you're looking for a prestige class to go into, then you have to be a little bit more careful with the Rogue-Shadowdancer progression. One, Shadowdancer's don't get Sneak Attack dice, so be wary of that. You say you're not necessary looking to combat focused tough, so HiPS combined with shadow jumping along with being able to cast shadow illusion/call/power can be insanely useful.

Note that if you do Shadowdancer beyond 1st level you'll want to have a Rogue archetype. You get evasion and uncanny dodge from the prestige class, which is useless as a rogue since you already get those. Being something like the Scout archetype means you're gaining more abilities and benefits from advancing through Shadowdancer, which is a good thing. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes

Finally, note that Shadowdancer class abilities are Charisma-based (excellent since you're a halfling), and to get the most out of it you'd want to wait to progress passed 2nd level until you're a level 10 rogue so you can choose from the Advanced Rogue Talents with those shadowdancer levels (absolutely not a requirement though).

For other ways to increase stealth, a cheap Cloak of Elvenkind will get a +5 bonus. At higher levels it can be replaced with armor with the shadow enchantement (it's the same bonus so they wouldn't stack). Taking the feats Skill Focus (Stealth) and Stealthy are practically a requirement for you then. Remember that in Pathfinder the max ranks you can take is equal to your character level, which means those bonuses are no joke, and any edge over your opponents perception modifier is huge. Also the feats themselves get a boast, doubling when you get 10 ranks in the skill.

Assuming you have an 18 Dex, at level five taking those two feats and getting that cloak will give you a Stealth mod of: 4+5 (ranks)+2+3+5+3 (class skill) = 22. And that's before your roll, and you're at 5th level.

Other random boosts include taking 1 level of the Inquisitor archetype Inquisitor to add your Wisdom mod to your stealth if that happens to be high. Taking a level of arcane bloodline sorcerer (or wizard) gets you a familiar, the Cat gives you a +3 stealth bonus.

Finally in the most recent printing of the Core Rule Book, they slightly changed the stealth rules (a good thing!) to make it clear that by using stealth you can remain hidden until you explicitly do something to change that. So just make sure you're using the latest updates (found here: http://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj) as they'll help you tremendously.

thanks for the reply. you got some real good ideas there. i guess the shadowdancer appealed to me cause of the darkvision (i cant see a thing when im "in my element") the shadow jump, the shadow companion. i give no effs about the loss of sneak attack die. our DM is very OG about his DMing style and its a very roleplay heavy campaign. he tries to give us at least 1 combat per session but not always. we get rewarded for creativity and things so combat is far from my mind. our ninja, fighter, summoner have that pretty well handled.

unfortunately i cant take any archtypes cause we have already started gaming and as much as i like the sorc lvl idea i should have mentioned that id rather not cross class to anything that isnt "rogue related". and now that i think about it i really need to think about other ways to neutralize opponents. cause if i can stealth and shadowjump and blah blah itll be a gas to stun/paralyze etc.

but i digress. good call on the cloak. and i forgot about skill focus lol maybe shadowdancer is perfect afterall. gonna be a while before i have the prereqs though. i still cant bring myself to not take improved initiative with a rogue :P my dex is 16 and i have the reactionary trait and i love a +9 initiative

[Kudaku]

On the off chance that your wisdom modifier is decent, you could take Ki pool and Vanishing Trick from the Ninja to have an on-demand invisibility effect - useful for those awkward "oh - I rolled a 1" moments.

[lordkronos187]

On the off chance that your wisdom modifier is decent, you could take Ki pool and Vanishing Trick from the Ninja to have an on-demand invisibility effect - useful for those awkward "oh - I rolled a 1" moments.

hmmm. that could be plausible. with a ninja in the group he could "teach" me and i could take the levels. the dm doesnt allow random crossclassing without a little roleplaying and story flavor ;)

[Kudaku]

Taking a few ninja levels would work, but I was thinking the talent route:

Ninja Trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/ninja-trick-ex) is a rogue talent that lets you pick up one ninja trick, but you'll need a Ki pool in order to use Vanishing Trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja#TOC-Ninja-Tricks). The Ki Pool (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/ki-pool-ex) talent gives you a ki pool equal to your wisdom modifier.

However, that ties up two rogue talents and it relies on a high wisdom modifier or else your ki pool will be tiny.

You have some other options. Like you mentioned, you could dip a few levels of Ninja, or you could even retrain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining) your rogue levels into the ninja class.

[lordkronos187]

Taking a few ninja levels would work, but I was thinking the talent route:

Ninja Trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/ninja-trick-ex) is a rogue talent that lets you pick up one ninja trick, but you'll need a Ki pool in order to use Vanishing Trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja#TOC-Ninja-Tricks). The Ki Pool (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/ki-pool-ex) talent gives you a ki pool equal to your wisdom modifier.

However, that ties up two rogue talents and it relies on a high wisdom modifier or else your ki pool will be tiny.

You have some other options. Like you mentioned, you could dip a few levels of Ninja, or you could even retrain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining) your rogue levels into the ninja class.

oh wow. that retraining thing is great. might be a hard sell on this dm but i think i can pull it off. looks like theres a lot more ways i can do this than i thought before

[Kudaku]

Retraining is detailed in Ultimate Campaign. I've been GMing with something similar (though homebrewed) for a while and I find it works well - it means people who make mistakes or are just plain unfortunate with their builds can rectify them, which means it's easier to enjoy the character you've made.

It does tax the credulity of the game somewhat - a level 1 elf rogue can retrain to a wizard by spending a week and some gp learning what takes a normal 1st level wizard between 10 and 60 years to master, for instance.

That said, sometimes you need to suspend "realism" in favor of good gameplay mechanics.

[lordkronos187]

Retraining is detailed in Ultimate Campaign - I've been GMing with something similar (though homebrewed) for a while and I find it works well - it means people who make mistakes or are just plain unfortunate with their builds can rectify them, which means it's easier to enjoy the character you've made.

That said, it does tax the credulity of the game somewhat - a level 1 elf rogue can retrain to a wizard by spending a week and some gp learning what takes a normal 1st level wizard between 10 and 60 years to master, for instance.

That said, sometimes you need to suspend "realism" in favor of good gameplay mechanics.

luckily my gm favors fluidity. shouldnt be a problem to work in with this guy