The Wordbearer

[Melcar]

Hello guy... after talking tier 1 / OP /IMBA/ broken PrC I wanted to throw one out there for comparison. I know this is not a core WoTC product but a Mongoose Publishing 3ed party product, but I wanted to know what you guys think anyways. It's from The Quintessential Wizard

I hope you will give some thought on it!
Here it is: Its a 5 level prestige class... (abbreviated description follows)

Hit Dice: d4

PREREQUISITES
Feats: Quicken Spell
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 13 ranks
Special: Ability to cast power word, blind, power word, kill, or power word, stun
Special: Spend 2 months studying an ancient libram (specific)

Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier

CLASS FEATURES
Words of Power: The save DC to resist a word's effects equals 20 + Int modifier.
Word of Power, Sleep: forces a single foe within 60 feet to collapse to the ground, deeply asleep (only affects creatures vulnerable to sleep spell) for 1d4 hours unless the target makes a will save. Usable 3/day.
Word of Power, Terror: Causes crippling fear in a single target, paralyzing him for 2d4 rounds unless he makes a Will save. A successful save still leaves the target shaken for 2d4 rounds. Usable 3/day.
Word of Power, Pain: Target falls to the ground in agony, suffering 3d6 damage and rendered helpless for 1d4 rounds with no save allowed. Usable 3/day.
Word of Power, Destroy: A single creature's body bursts into flame, causing 3d6 points of damage per round and -2 penalty to all checks, saves, and attacks for 2d4 rounds. A creature reduced to -10 hit points disintegrates into dust. Damage cannot be restored by regeneration or fast healing abilities (though cure spells work normally). Usable 2/day.
Word of Power, Annihilate: A cone area of effect that has multiple effects. All spells and spell-like abilities are affected as if by greater dispelling cast at the Wordbearer's character level. All creatures must make a Fort. save or suffer "2d4 points of permanent ability damage to each ability score," and 10d6 damage. A successful save negates ability damage and halves hit point damage. The cone area of effect ignores all cover, cleaving through stone, metal, and other obstacles until it reaches the edge of its area of effect. Usable 1/week.

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Yeah, the no save word of pain ability is pretty powerful... the last one is pretty rough, too. Sleep and Terror aren't such a big deal, and Destroy looks like it can be handled (as far as not being too powerful).

Thanks

[Max Caysey]

Hello guy... after talking tier 1 / OP /IMBA/ broken PrC I wanted to throw one out there for comparison. I know this is not a core WoTC product but a Mongoose Publishing 3ed party product, but I wanted to know what you guys think anyways. It's from The Quintessential Wizard

I hope you will give some thought on it!
Here it is: Its a 5 level prestige class... (abbreviated description follows)

Hit Dice: d4

PREREQUISITES
Feats: Quicken Spell
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 13 ranks
Special: Ability to cast power word, blind, power word, kill, or power word, stun
Special: Spend 2 months studying an ancient libram (specific)

Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier

CLASS FEATURES
Words of Power: The save DC to resist a word's effects equals 20 + Int modifier.
Word of Power, Sleep: forces a single foe within 60 feet to collapse to the ground, deeply asleep (only affects creatures vulnerable to sleep spell) for 1d4 hours unless the target makes a will save. Usable 3/day.
Word of Power, Terror: Causes crippling fear in a single target, paralyzing him for 2d4 rounds unless he makes a Will save. A successful save still leaves the target shaken for 2d4 rounds. Usable 3/day.
Word of Power, Pain: Target falls to the ground in agony, suffering 3d6 damage and rendered helpless for 1d4 rounds with no save allowed. Usable 3/day.
Word of Power, Destroy: A single creature's body bursts into flame, causing 3d6 points of damage per round and -2 penalty to all checks, saves, and attacks for 2d4 rounds. A creature reduced to -10 hit points disintegrates into dust. Damage cannot be restored by regeneration or fast healing abilities (though cure spells work normally). Usable 2/day.
Word of Power, Annihilate: A cone area of effect that has multiple effects. All spells and spell-like abilities are affected as if by greater dispelling cast at the Wordbearer's character level. All creatures must make a Fort. save or suffer "2d4 points of permanent ability damage to each ability score," and 10d6 damage. A successful save negates ability damage and halves hit point damage. The cone area of effect ignores all cover, cleaving through stone, metal, and other obstacles until it reaches the edge of its area of effect. Usable 1/week.

==============================
Yeah, the no save word of pain ability is pretty powerful... the last one is pretty rough, too. Sleep and Terror aren't such a big deal, and Destroy looks like it can be handled (as far as not being too powerful).

Thanks


This is maybe the most OP thing I have seen. Forget about Gate loops and Shapechange, this will blow any #¤%&/() out the water!!!!

I would say... Dont go there. I have seen the material you mention being used to good effect, but this class is tooo crazy... Cant remember, are divine rank 18 gods immune to critical hits???

[CRtwenty]

That is ridiculous. The Pain one is a 3/day "I Win" button on 99.9% of everything you encounter.

[Spuddles]

It's not very good, not compared to top notch prestige classes. Power Word spells are (enchantment)[compulsion]. Using those at 15th level isn't particularly amazing.

[Der_DWSage]

It's...kind of silly, but honestly, this isn't as OP as you're thinking. Some of the formatting I'll assume is your own shorthand of the class, but I want to point out some things.

Before I start into the nitty gritty of this:This is assuming that it does not advance caster level and spells per day. You didn't state it did, and that's something that stands out to most people.


Words of Power: The save DC to resist a word's effects equals 20 + Int modifier.
Let's start here. Kinda worrying, but then I realize there's no way to pump it up further beyond just...increasing intelligence. The saves are high, so let's look at the actual effects here.


Word of Power, Sleep: forces a single foe within 60 feet to collapse to the ground, deeply asleep (only affects creatures vulnerable to sleep spell) for 1d4 hours unless the target makes a will save. Usable 3/day.
If this is exactly as the Sleep Spell? Hope you really needed that 4th level fighter to take a nap, because it's useless otherwise.

If it simply means vulnerable to enchantment and not an Elf? This is a longer-lasting Hold Person/Monster, and Hold Person/Monster already does everything this does, more often, and without giving up a caster level.


Word of Power, Terror: Causes crippling fear in a single target, paralyzing him for 2d4 rounds unless he makes a Will save. A successful save still leaves the target shaken for 2d4 rounds. Usable 3/day.
Once again, Hold Person/Monster. The only difference being save DCs, duration, and that this gives a completely negligible penalty to rolls for a few rounds.


Word of Power, Destroy: A single creature's body bursts into flame, causing 3d6 points of damage per round and -2 penalty to all checks, saves, and attacks for 2d4 rounds. A creature reduced to -10 hit points disintegrates into dust. Damage cannot be restored by regeneration or fast healing abilities (though cure spells work normally). Usable 2/day.

Know what else can cause up to 24d6 (And more) damage to a single target and reduce them to dust? Disintegrate. A spell you'd have by now if you weren't focusing on this weird prestige class. And at level 13, a -2 penalty to everything is very negligible.


Word of Power, Annihilate: A cone area of effect that has multiple effects. All spells and spell-like abilities are affected as if by greater dispelling cast at the Wordbearer's character level. All creatures must make a Fort. save or suffer "2d4 points of permanent ability damage to each ability score," and 10d6 damage. A successful save negates ability damage and halves hit point damage. The cone area of effect ignores all cover, cleaving through stone, metal, and other obstacles until it reaches the edge of its area of effect. Usable 1/week.

Oh hey, something actually decent. Something like a DC 26 Fortitude save vs. massive stat drain and 10d6 damage...once a week.

Let me repeat that. Once a week.

Know what else you could do once a week? Alter reality 21 times over. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm)

In short, you have some pretty strong DCs, which is useful for someone in low-to-mid op games, but they're all single target attacks...except for one that can only be used once. A. Week.

I'll just keep advancing Wizard, thank you very much. And even if it did advance spellcasting? I'd rather have something more reliable, like a Fatespinner or Abjurant Champion.

EDIT:Whoops. I somehow missed this guy my first time through. Dunno how that happened.


Word of Power, Pain: Target falls to the ground in agony, suffering 3d6 damage and rendered helpless for 1d4 rounds with no save allowed. Usable 3/day.

Hey look, your one helpful thing. No save is pretty nifty, admittedly. It's not worth giving up three levels of Wizard, in my opinion. Especially since Irresistable Dance is right around the corner at that point, as are several more useful things.

[Melcar]

I have forgotten to write the following:


Words of power ignore spell resistance. The energies and effects caused by a word of power draws their power from ancient, primordial sources that predate the creation of the universe. Thus they scythes through barriers that would normally deflect magical spells.



This means that Globe of invulnerable, Protection from spells and Prismatic Sphere is useless against this.

And yes... caster level does not advance through this class!

[Spuddles]

Mindblank still grants immunity.

Does the PrC progress spellcasting? I was under the assumption that it did. If it doesn't, then the class is basically worthless.

[edit]



Caster level does not advance through this class!


Oh wow, yeah, then it's absolutely horrid. Get all the way to level 7 spells, then give up on Wish, Shapechange, and Time Stop? No thanks.

[eggynack]

And yes... caster level does not advance through this class!
Huh. I was about to post that in a vacuum, it's an obvious assumption that a wizard prestige class advances casting. I'm pretty glad that I didn't post that now. Yeah, this class is the opposite of overpowered, in that it's underpowered. There's nearly nothing in the entire game that's more powerful than wizard casting, and this prestige class isn't in that phenomenally small group. It just doesn't give nearly as much power as just being a wizard would, and that goes double when it's compared to super powerful prestige classes that do advance casting.

[Max Caysey]

I was under the impression that the word of power, pain was so powerful that it would make up for the lack of spell caster progression.

[eggynack]

I was under the impression that the word of power, pain was so powerful that it would make up for the lack of spell caster progression.
Not really, no. It's powerful, sure, but it's nowhere near as powerful as three levels of wizard progression. Wizards get just a crazy amount of stuff, especially at the levels where you'd be able to take this prestige class. Losing access to that for a nifty stunning effect isn't worth it. This is especially true because I don't have the ability in front of me, so I don't know what the defenses against it are. I'd probably need to see the whole thing in order to decide that it's unstoppable, but as is, I'm pretty sure that it's not.

[Spuddles]

I was under the impression that the word of power, pain was so powerful that it would make up for the lack of spell caster progression.

A level 17 wizard with 28 int (mot that hard to get) has two 9th level spell slots. If it's an elf generalist, a specialist wizard, a focused specialist, or a domain wizard, then that is 3-4 9th level slots, instead.

That's 11 hours of Shapechange. Which means at will disintegrate (beholder), astral projection & etherealness (nightmare), xp-costless wish (Zodar), as well as a bunch of other ridiculous stuff, thanks to getting all Su abilities.

3/day making something that isn't immune to mind-affecting helpless for 1d4 rounds just isn't worth it.

[eggynack]

3/day making something that isn't immune to mind-affecting helpless for 1d4 rounds just isn't worth it.
If it's mind affecting, that's basically it right there. The OP didn't mention it as far as I can tell, though it looks like mind affecting is a quality of all power words, so you're almost certainly correct. It feels like this PrC just keeps getting worse and worse. Immune to mind affecting is common enough that the entire school of enchantment's been classed as one of the worst schools of magic, despite the pretty large amount of high power effects. I don't see why any wizard in their right mind would trade three spell levels for an attack against targets that aren't immune. I was thinking that this could be used against super powered targets, and therefore be theoretically worthwhile, but anything worth using this on would just be immune, so this class is as a butt.

[Melcar]

I dont see it as mindeffecting. Its some form of otherworldly magic so any "standard" arcane magic is not going to help agains it. As I see it.

As it says in the writeup. The Word of Power, Pain is affects any creature not immune to critical hits. So anything except Undead, Construct, Elementals, Oozes and Plants. But basically anything else!

[eggynack]

I dont see it as mindeffecting. Its some form of otherworldly magic so any "standard" arcane magic is not going to help agains it. As I see it.

As it says in the writeup. The Word of Power, Pain is affects any creature not immune to critical hits. So anything except Undead, Construct, Elementals, Oozes and Plants. But basically anything else!
Do you have the ability in front of you for posting purposes? That'd probably help out with the whole evaluation thing. I mean, there's nearly nothing in existence that'll make up for three lost caster levels, but it'd be nice to have some specifics.

Edit: Just found it. I'll give more evaluation in a bit.

Double edit: Yeah, it looks like it's not mind effecting, for some reason. Still, deafness is a defense, so that could help out a bit. The whole thing is really oddly formatted. I don't know if it requires line of sight, or line of effect, or anything. I suppose that you can effect anyone who hears you, but it's a targeted effect, which is an odd thing. Still, upon immediate examination, immunity to criticals and deafness are the big two ways around this.

[Spuddles]

Crit immunity is REALLY easy to get.

[Melcar]

Do you have the ability in front of you for posting purposes? That'd probably help out with the whole evaluation thing. I mean, there's nearly nothing in existence that'll make up for three lost caster levels, but it'd be nice to have some specifics.

Edit: Just found it. I'll give more evaluation in a bit.

Double edit: Yeah, it looks like it's not mind effecting, for some reason. Still, deafness is a defense, so that could help out a bit. The whole thing is really oddly formatted. I don't know if it requires line of sight, or line of effect, or anything. I suppose that you can effect anyone who hears you, but it's a targeted effect, which is an odd thing. Still, upon immediate examination, immunity to criticals and deafness are the big two ways around this.

I would not say, that because you are putting your fingers in your ears going lalalalala not being able to hear the wordbearer you could awoid the effects of the words. At least I would not rule Deafness to be a way around it!


Word of Power, Pain: When the victim of the word of power hears its dreaded syllables, he immediately crumples to the ground in searing agony. The target of this ability suffers 3d6 point of damage and is rendered helpless, as describes above, for 1d4 rounds with no saving throw allowed. Creatures immune to critical hits are not affected by this word of power.

[eggynack]

I would not say, that because you are putting your fingers in your ears going lalalalala not being able to hear the wordbearer you could awoid the effects of the words. At least I would not rule Deafness to be a way around it!
Why not? The ability says, "When the victim of this word of power hears its dreadful syllables..." so deafness should be a perfect immunity. The fact that the actual power words specifically call out their ability to effect those that can't hear them actually lends further credence to my claims. You're going to have to give an actual reason for your ruling on this one.

[Der_DWSage]

Hm. Okay, now that I've looked at it a little more closely, some further details about the class.

1)Speaking these words are a free action. I admit, that makes them much more tempting than my initial assumption from the OP. They're probably intended to be Swift, as this is 3.0 stuff.

2)It's...a little vague in exactly what does and does not protect against Words of Power. However, the words 'Thus, they scythe through barriers that would normally deflect magical spells.' implies that they're just not subject to SR and Mind Blank. Being deaf (Which is admittedly rare) is still a valid defense, as is being mindless.

3)Word of Sleep explicitly calls it out as 'vulnerable to the Sleep spell.' RAW, anything above 4 HD is immune. RAI? Anything not an Elf, most likely. Still, it's a weird way to write it, and it shows that third party formatting.

4)Word of Terror, admittedly, becomes much more tempting as a Free/Swift action. Open something up for your Rogue buddy.

5)Word of Pain is...okay, that makes this a tempting 3-level dip for a 17th level wizard. You've already got your 9th level spells, and 3 CL is not the equivalent of only having access to 7th level spells. However, Mindless and Immunity to Crits are ridiculously common at high level play, so not as great as you'd hope. Still, it makes a nice way to make a chump of Evil McEvilton BBEG.

6)Word of Destruction is still pretty weak, though. 3d6 per round at 14th level? Kinda laughable, even as a swift action.

7)Word of Annihilation is still a laughably weak capstone. Seriously, 1/week? Once. Per. Week.



With this new info on the table...I dunno. It could make a tempting 3-level dip for a Wizard just for that one ability, but at the same time, Wizards already have tons of no-save ways to screw people over. The Words of Power being swift action brings this up from 'laughably weak' to 'notable,' but still on par or slightly weaker than actually getting casting progression.

[Melcar]

Why not? The ability says, "When the victim of this word of power hears its dreadful syllables..." so deafness should be a perfect immunity. The fact that the actual power words specifically call out their ability to effect those that can't hear them actually lends further credence to my claims. You're going to have to give an actual reason for your ruling on this one.

I see your point, but somehow if the powers can scythe through stone, then it can’t be whether or not you have eardrums or whether or not there is loud music in the vicinity. But whether or not the target is within effectible range.

[Melcar]

5)Word of Pain is...okay, that makes this a tempting 3-level dip for a 17th level wizard. You've already got your 9th level spells, and 3 CL is not the equivalent of only having access to 7th level spells. However, Mindless and Immunity to Crits are ridiculously common at high level play, so not as great as you'd hope. Still, it makes a nice way to make a chump of Evil McEvilton BBEG.


Why was it again that you deem mindless being immune to the effects?

[Der_DWSage]

For Word of Pain, the main reason is that it doesn't explicitly spell out what is and is not a valid way of resisting the Words of Power. So we're left with figuring out Rules as Intended, rather than going by RAW.

The phrase 'Thus, they scythe through barriers that would normally deflect magical spells.' implies that it only cuts through magical defenses, and not innate ones. And for all its fancy talk, Power Words are still Mind-Affecting spells. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerWordKill.htm) I'd agree that it cuts through Mind Blank by the wording of the ability, but not innate mindlessness.

Also, it makes very little sense for, say, an ooze to crouch over in pain. They have no pain receptors. They don't feel pain. Why would this stun them like that? Same for Constructs. You can remove a Construct's arm, and the most it will do is stand there and wait for you to put it back.

The only on where I'd agree that being mindless and deaf is not a resistance is against Word of Annihilation, where it explicitly destroys objects as well as targets.

[Melcar]

For Word of Pain, the main reason is that it doesn't explicitly spell out what is and is not a valid way of resisting the Words of Power. So we're left with figuring out Rules as Intended, rather than going by RAW.

The phrase 'Thus, they scythe through barriers that would normally deflect magical spells.' implies that it only cuts through magical defenses, and not innate ones. And for all its fancy talk, Power Words are still Mind-Affecting spells. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerWordKill.htm) I'd agree that it cuts through Mind Blank by the wording of the ability, but not innate mindlessness.

Also, it makes very little sense for, say, an ooze to crouch over in pain. They have no pain receptors. They don't feel pain. Why would this stun them like that? Same for Constructs. You can remove a Construct's arm, and the most it will do is stand there and wait for you to put it back.

The only on where I'd agree that being mindless and deaf is not a resistance is against Word of Annihilation, where it explicitly destroys objects as well as targets.

Well these are no "ordinary" power words spells... And so, would not follow all the same rules! I would use the "whether the creature can hear the word or not." wording of Powerword Kill, but I would not deem it a [mind-effecting] ability. FOr two reasons. 1) That would make the class suck 2) It seems to employ powers that are not mind-effecting due to some of the text which implies that it is a reality altering abilities not only something that tekes effect inside the mind. And thus, I dont read it as mind-effecting even though the normal Powerword spells are.

I might be wrong ofc, but thats my take on it!:smallsmile:

[eggynack]

Well these are no "ordinary" power words spells... And so, would not follow all the same rules! I would use the "whether the creature can hear the word or not." wording of Powerword Kill, but I would not deem it a [mind-effecting] ability. FOr two reasons. 1) That would make the class suck 2) It seems to employ powers that are not mind-effecting due to some of the text which implies that it is a reality altering abilities not only something that tekes effect inside the mind. And thus, I dont read it as mind-effecting even though the normal Powerword spells are.

I might be wrong ofc, but thats my take on it!:smallsmile:
I don't see why you'd adopt the effective against deafness clause from the power words, without adopting the mind affecting thing as well. If you're going to template the class after the spells, you should go all the way. As is, you should maintain the ability of these words to hit targets with immunity to mind affecting, and also maintain their lack of ability to effect deaf targets. The latter is at least true for pain, which is the only relevant ability of the bunch. Also, the sleep one shouldn't be able to get through immunity to mind affecting, because it says it can only hit what sleep can hit, and sleep is mind affecting.

[Spuddles]

It says that the spells overcome barriers that deflect magic. I suppose you could read that in the most open way possible, but I think heavy fortification, gem of fortification, living undeath, amorphous form, a talisman of undying fortitude, Plant Devotion, Plant Body, all four Heart spells up, stone body, elemental body, iron body, or veil of undeath will all negate all these things.

Not to mention type based immunities.

[Melcar]

It says that the spells overcome barriers that deflect magic. I suppose you could read that in the most open way possible, but I think heavy fortification, gem of fortification, living undeath, amorphous form, a talisman of undying fortitude, Plant Devotion, Plant Body, all four Heart spells up, stone body, elemental body, iron body, or veil of undeath will all negate all these things.

Not to mention type based immunities.

Heavy fortification is a force effect that block blows, so no way I would deem that enough. Elemental and Iron body and the likes yes!

[Der_DWSage]

That's actually kind of a problem with the class. It's poorly worded, and doesn't explicitly state...anything. Just that SR doesn't affect it. For all we know, SR might be the only thing it's intended to 'scythe through,' and the more I read it, the more I come to that conclusion.

If you want it to not be mind-affecting so that it 'doesn't suck,' that's up to your GM and your table. The original author of the class was frustratingly vague in his terminology, and didn't even state if they were (Su), (Sp), or heck, (Ex). No mention of if they're still beholden to the laws of regular Power Words (IE, that they're mind-affecting enchantments) or if they're their own thing, or...

So yeah. Long story short:RAW is actually more vague on this thing than it is on IHS.

[Melcar]

After reading about special abilities, I think I would deem the words to be supernatural abilities... With a twist! In other words an extraordinary ability which are magical. So more or less a mix! If that is possible!

[Der_DWSage]

No, the real question here is whether the abilities are (Su) or (Sp). They are not (Ex), no matter how badly you want to use it inside an antimagic field. (Ex) would be things like Flurry of Blows and Sneak Attack, not the ability to speak a word and destroy walls.

The long and short of it is that this is as badly written as first-pass homebrew. It has some passable ideas, but it's not well laid out, it doesn't try to nail down anything to what they're supposed to be, and they were just thrown out there to look cool and interesting.

It's also not nearly as broken as it looks at first glance. The no-save paralysis is pretty debilitating, but that's 3/day, and it requires you give up 3 levels of spellcasting, and we all know that spellcasting is the best class feature.

[Melcar]

No, the real question here is whether the abilities are (Su) or (Sp). They are not (Ex), no matter how badly you want to use it inside an antimagic field. (Ex) would be things like Flurry of Blows and Sneak Attack, not the ability to speak a word and destroy walls.

The long and short of it is that this is as badly written as first-pass homebrew. It has some passable ideas, but it's not well laid out, it doesn't try to nail down anything to what they're supposed to be, and they were just thrown out there to look cool and interesting.

It's also not nearly as broken as it looks at first glance. The no-save paralysis is pretty debilitating, but that's 3/day, and it requires you give up 3 levels of spellcasting, and we all know that spellcasting is the best class feature.

I will then say, that is must be a supernatural ability. After reading about Fortification it cant possible give immunity to the 3ed class level ability. Further I will say, that I think it could still work well, as long as DM and player talk things over befor the class is taken.

Personally I think the idea is very cool. Like the dragon shouts of Skyrim!!!

[Spuddles]

I will then say, that is must be a supernatural ability. After reading about Fortification it cant possible give immunity to the 3ed class level ability. Further I will say, that I think it could still work well, as long as DM and player talk things over befor the class is taken.

Personally I think the idea is very cool. Like the dragon shouts of Skyrim!!!

If you rule them as Su abilities, that should cover most of the problems. It is a pretty cool idea for a class, but with a d4 HD, poor BAB, and following 15 levels of an arcane caster class, it's not really worth taking levels in.

[Max Caysey]

No, the real question here is whether the abilities are (Su) or (Sp). They are not (Ex), no matter how badly you want to use it inside an antimagic field. (Ex) would be things like Flurry of Blows and Sneak Attack, not the ability to speak a word and destroy walls.

The long and short of it is that this is as badly written as first-pass homebrew. It has some passable ideas, but it's not well laid out, it doesn't try to nail down anything to what they're supposed to be, and they were just thrown out there to look cool and interesting.

It's also not nearly as broken as it looks at first glance. The no-save paralysis is pretty debilitating, but that's 3/day, and it requires you give up 3 levels of spellcasting, and we all know that spellcasting is the best class feature.

I don’t know if you know forgotten realms setting, but since "normal" magic runs on the weave maintained by Mystra, I would say this could in fact run without it. The magic predates the rising of the weave. I’m seeing it, like this sort of magic vibrates with a different frequency than normal magic, and that is why it is unaffected by the normal spell resistance or protection spells.

I personally think "rules as intended" are that this is a very powerful PrC. Usually mongoose produces some very OP options for players, and this would be the one exception to confirm the rule if this was not equally so. For instance 20+ int for the saves are just like the standard 10+int+spell level, if these abilities were a level 10 effect.

Personally I would rule the 5 abilities as follows:


1) Exactly like the spell Sleep with a different save.

2) Affects anyone who does not have an innate immunity to fear. Again being mindless, (not be means of any arcane or divine spell), will grant you immunity to this ability.

3) Anything short of Constructs, Elements, Oozes, Plants, Undead and Ethereal, crumbles to the floor in agonizing pain. Transmuting into a creature lacking respiratory functions like that of undead, or construct, thus being immune to critical hits, will grant immunity to this ability. An armor of Fortification does not block this, because such an armor negates critical hits, it does not grant immunity to them and in no way alters your respiratory system.

4) I would rules this as being a raw magical energy flame, thus not susceptible to fire resistance. Again innate mindless creatures would not have to make a will save. But I would not deem this a [mind-effecting] ability and so intelligent undead would still have to save, constructs would not. This would still damage any creature.

5) This I would rule to effect any creature. Even creatures immune to ability damage, who does not make their saves. Further the dispel magic effect would have no limit. Meaning a level 45 wizard/ 5 Wordbearer would have a dispel magic with +50.

I know this makes the class a lot more potent than "RAW" would make it, but knowing mongoose I think this is the way their intended it. This is obviously just my way of reading it, and how I would rule it. It goes without saying that I like the class idea.

One big problem though I can’t seem to fully deduct is the range of the abilities. Ability 1) works at 60 ft. or 20 yards or 18,2 meters. This is very close, but it’s my best guess. I would probably rule as such.

[Melcar]

I don’t know if you know forgotten realms setting, but since "normal" magic runs on the weave maintained by Mystra, I would say this could in fact run without it. The magic predates the rising of the weave. I’m seeing it, like this sort of magic vibrates with a different frequency than normal magic, and that is why it is unaffected by the normal spell resistance or protection spells.

I personally think "rules as intended" are that this is a very powerful PrC. Usually mongoose produces some very OP options for players, and this would be the one exception to confirm the rule if this was not equally so. For instance 20+ int for the saves are just like the standard 10+int+spell level, if these abilities were a level 10 effect.

Personally I would rule the 5 abilities as follows:


1) Exactly like the spell Sleep with a different save.

2) Affects anyone who does not have an innate immunity to fear. Again being mindless, (not be means of any arcane or divine spell), will grant you immunity to this ability.

3) Anything short of Constructs, Elements, Oozes, Plants, Undead and Ethereal, crumbles to the floor in agonizing pain. Transmuting into a creature lacking respiratory functions like that of undead, or construct, thus being immune to critical hits, will grant immunity to this ability. An armor of Fortification does not block this, because such an armor negates critical hits, it does not grant immunity to them and in no way alters your respiratory system.

4) I would rules this as being a raw magical energy flame, thus not susceptible to fire resistance. Again innate mindless creatures would not have to make a will save. But I would not deem this a [mind-effecting] ability and so intelligent undead would still have to save, constructs would not. This would still damage any creature.

5) This I would rule to effect any creature. Even creatures immune to ability damage, who does not make their saves. Further the dispel magic effect would have no limit. Meaning a level 45 wizard/ 5 Wordbearer would have a dispel magic with +50.

I know this makes the class a lot more potent than "RAW" would make it, but knowing mongoose I think this is the way their intended it. This is obviously just my way of reading it, and how I would rule it. It goes without saying that I like the class idea.

One big problem though I can’t seem to fully deduct is the range of the abilities. Ability 1) works at 60 ft. or 20 yards or 18,2 meters. This is very close, but it’s my best guess. I would probably rule as such.

This is basically the way I thought the abilities functioned! I feel this is a good version of "rules as intended"

[Spuddles]

Sleep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleep.htm) is such a terrible spell past the first few levels. Getting that in cone shape at level 16 is pretty much the worst thing ever.

[Melcar]

Sleep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleep.htm) is such a terrible spell past the first few levels. Getting that in cone shape at level 16 is pretty much the worst thing ever.

Not quite sure how or where a cone of sleep enters the picture, but that would indeed suck!

[Karnith]

Not quite sure how or where a cone of sleep enters the picture, but that would indeed suck!

Word of Power, Sleep: forces a single foe within 60 feet to collapse to the ground, deeply asleep (only affects creatures vulnerable to sleep spell) for 1d4 hours unless the target makes a will save. Usable 3/day.
By my reading of what you've posted, Word of Power, Sleep only affects creatures that are vulnerable to the sleep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleep.htm) spell, and hence it cannot affect any creature with more than 4 HD, nor can it affect creatures immune to mind-affecting effects.

Or, at least, that's where I think it came from (not so sure about the whole cone thing).

EDIT: Seeing the actual class description now, it still looks pretty terrible.

Word of Power, Sleep: With the pronouncement of a single, primal syllable, the wordbearer forces a single foe within 60 ft. to collapse to the ground, deeply asleep. This word forces a creature’s mind to immediately shut down and enter the state of sleep. This ability works only against creatures that are capable of hearing spoken words and vulnerable to the sleep spell. The victim of this ability may make a Will save to resist its effects. A creature forced asleep by this power awakens in 1d4 hours or if forcefully shaken or disturbed, as per the sleep spell. The wordbearer may speak this word three times per day.
(Emphasis mine)

[Melcar]

By my reading of what you've posted, Word of Power, Sleep only affects creatures that are vulnerable to the sleep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleep.htm) spell, and hence it cannot affect any creature with more than 4 HD, nor can it affect creatures immune to mind-affecting effects.

Or, at least, that's where I think it came from (not so sure about the whole cone thing).

EDIT: Seeing the actual class description now, it still looks pretty terrible.

(Emphasis mine)

Indeed... The first level abilty sucks big time... no doubt there!

[Spuddles]

Oh, my bad, thought first ability made a cone. Didn't know where I got that idea. :smallredface: