Guys: Stop Being The White Knight, Doormat, Nice Guy, Etc...

[Crow]

So after seeing another friend get burned by this, I am putting this out there so that any other dudes in similar situations can't say they weren't warned.

I know that we all want to feel wanted sometimes. That is fine, but you guys need to stop attaching yourselves to these women who are constantly in need of being rescued. Girls like it when you do things for them, and you know that, but you are going about the whole situation in the wrong way.

You shouldn't be having to fulfill her basic needs. One of my friends has picked up lunch on the way to work for his girl at least a dozen times because she "forgot". Another guy set down a sizable chunk of cash to pay for his chick's down payment on a new car. These are some of the more extreme examples, to say nothing of all the tiny things that you don't want to do, but are doing because you're a "nice guy".

Listen up: The little (and big) things that you do mean a whole lot more when you don't have to do them.

I hear you now. "But Crow, I didn't have to do any of that. I wanted to do those things."

Ask yourself this question: Would you have done it for a man, that you have known for the same amount of time? If the answer is no, then you need to stop. There is a fine line between helping your girl out with things because you like her, and becoming subservient in a relationship.

Ask yourself another question: Would she still like me just as much if I didn't do these things for her? The answer to this one is a bit harder to swallow, because a lot of times, we don't want the real answer. As crappy and messed up as it is, yes, there are people out there who would like you less for not doing these things. Also, those people are looking for you, because you are such a nice guy that you will do those things!

Most of the time, this is your fault though. You are the one who needs the validation from your significant other, and needs to feel wanted. That is fine. Most people do. But once again, you are doing it wrong. In the effort to fulfill this need of yours, you are attracting these broken princesses that you can come to the rescue for. Stop! Why? Because no matter how nice of a guy you are, there will one day be a crisis you cannot solve, or a need you cannot meet, and you will be gone, my friend. I've seen it dozens of times, and you have only yourself to blame.

What you need to do, is understand that you are a good man. You have everything it takes to win the affection of a strong, self-reliant woman, which is the key. When you switch to pursuing strength, and self-reliance, all those things that you do become that much more sweet. She doesn't /need/ you at all, but she sure as hell appreciates you. This is because (to her!) you don't need to do that stuff, but do it anyways. It is secondary to her. She didn't continue to date you for the things you do, but for the things that you are. If you lost your job or your car and couldn't do those things for her, it would not change her opinion of you.

So change your priority. Stop being the white knight off to rescue the princess. Instead, be the white knight looking for a lady of war to fight by his side.

To be clear, I am not saying that all women are a certain way, or that men should not do nice things for ladies. I am talking about very specific types of individuals, and the people I am targeting this post to, will recognize that, even if you do not.

As a man who has been married to a strong, self-reliant woman for a long time, and who has seen many of his friends fall to broken princesses, that's all I've got. Flame away.

[Emperor Ing]

I think this world would be so much of a better place if there were more voices like yours out there.

[pffh]

The problem with white knights is that they don't see themselves as white knights so their motivations get all skewed.

Doing something nice for some is fine.
Doing something nice for someone to get in their pants is also fine.
Doing something nice for someone to get in their pants and then expecting them to put out just for that, now that's not fine.

In the mind of many a white knight the last scenario is fine. They think that by doing enough nice thing they fill up the "have sex with me" meter and the person they are nice to will fall for them. This eventually puts them under the effect of a self imposed stockholm syndrome of sorts as their 'target' doesn't put out. Also sunk cost fallacy galore. Also also minor case of internalized sexism since they feel the need to help because the other person is just a man/woman but whether they realize that sexism is a whole other deal.

[Coidzor]

White Knighting is a very confusing subject. It could mean anything from working against the endemic sexism of gamer culture to trying to get into women's pants by being nice to them.

[theangelJean]

I am a little confused by the OP, and I'd like to offer a different perspective. Maybe the OP could clarify what you think the difference is between the situations you are seeing, and my situation?

First similar situation: is my husband a "White Knight" in your books? I suffer from a mental illness: anxiety, which has developed into depression a couple of times. I was diagnosed about three years into our relationship, but I've always been a bit of a needy and obsessive person. During my depressive episodes, I needed him to help me with basic things like pushing me to get out of bed, reminding me to eat, and quite often even making dinner himself or getting us take-away. Luckily for me, he was willing to help me with all of those things. I'm much better now, but even now I'm not working, so he's supporting us both financially.

Now, I can't say I haven't wondered if he would be happier with someone else. But I also know that I have plenty of good points (I won't bother listing them) despite still being a needy person who is currently nowhere near self-reliant. I get the impression from the first post that you believe that a situation like this is just wrong, and shouldn't happen; or at the very least, a 'guy' shouldn't put up with it. If not, what is the difference between your friends' being "white knights" and my husband?

To ask for further clarification, do you really think that people in a relationship should never help fulfil each other's basic needs? An example given was a guy getting lunch for his girlfriend (I presume), several times. Say a woman makes dinner for her partner every day - how is this any different? I think that if the people in a relationship have worked out what they're willing to do for each other, they should be allowed to do so without being judged by others who can't see the whole picture ...

[Mauve Shirt]

Wow, I guess all us anxious, introverted ladies of the angsty nerd circuit don't deserve a guy then.

[The Succubus]

One of my dearest female friends is going through an anxious patch and she tends to turn to me for emotional support. The fact that I'm always happy to listen to her and am eager to help if I can places me in White Knight territory. I have been a White Knight in the past and it hurt a female friend I was close to. Now, whenever I want to go and help a friend that genuinely needs me, like the one I mentioned in my opening sentence, there's this little voice in my brain saying "hurr, hurr, you just want to help her because you feel lonely and insecure."

So thanks for that I guess.

[Spanish_Paladin]

I like to be a white knight, why not?... if you love a woman you´ll cross oceans, climb mountains, fight dragons (metaphorically :smalltongue:) to make her happy.

P.D. Forgive me for the melodrama

[Mx.Silver]

Ask yourself this question: Would you have done it for a man, that you have known for the same amount of time?
I'm coming from a position of ignorance here, but isn't it generally the case that romantic relationships (especially long-term ones) imply a rather stronger degree of commitment and reciprocal expectation than most friendships? I mean, that seems to be the assumption that underlies the concept of marriage.

I'd have thought the better question be 'would your partner be willing to make similar effort/sacrifices for you?*". As opposed to 'do you treat you romantic partner the same way you treat your friends?'.

*key phrase here is 'willing to', so as to account for cases where one member of the relationship is or becomes handicapped and therefore may not actually be capable of said effort.


I am talking about very specific types of individuals
But you seem to be doing that in a vague, generalised manner. Using the term White Knight doesn't help that much either, considering how the phrase is often used online.

[AstralFire]

I'd have thought the better question be 'would your partner be willing to make similar effort/sacrifices for you?*". As opposed to 'do you treat you romantic partner the same way you treat your friends?'.


This is not only a less controversial question posed in a way that's not sex-confrontrational, it's considerably more on-target. Part of what got me out of my relationship was when I stopped asking the question "would I be willing to do this for males" and switched to asking myself "would she do this for me" and realizing that the answer had become "no" of late.

"Stop being a doormat" would be a better title, and frankly, without context some of these things seem just fine. I've had SOs help me with major financial commitments, and I've gotten things for them that they've forgotten (even on a regular basis).

[KillianHawkeye]

The true White Knight helps others for no other reason than because it is the right thing to do, for he is compassionate. It is not for any expectation of a reward. Those who act with with an expectation of reciprocation or entitlement are naught but tricksters undeserving of the mantle of knighthood.

[Dvil]

The behaviour that I think is less acceptable, and more deserving of the sarcastic title White Knight, is when the target of these actions isn't a SO at all, and is "just a friend". People can treat their SO however they like (as long as the SO agrees, of course) and that is their own business. pffh hit it on the head that the problematic (and somewhat annoying) instances of it are when the 'White Knight' in question is trying to impress a lady by being a doormat.

I also wanted to address something in the OP:

Ask yourself another question: Would she still like me just as much if I didn't do these things for her? The answer to this one is a bit harder to swallow, because a lot of times, we don't want the real answer. As crappy and messed up as it is, yes, there are people out there who would like you less for not doing these things. Also, those people are looking for you, because you are such a nice guy that you will do those things!
Now to me, this reads that you assume that generally people do appreciate the favours that a 'White Knight' does for them, but that's not always the case. I know one person who leaps to do favours for women for this sort of reason, and it's generally unappreciated. All the ladies in the friendship group are wise to his motives and it adds a level of unpleasantness to any "innocent" offers of favours. Just one more thing to think about.

[aberratio ictus]

theangelJean, Mauve Shirt, The Succubus, Spanish_Paladin and Mr.Silver raise good points.

I agree with the OP in the point that you shouldn't let yourself been taken advantage of. I suppose we can all agree on that.

Other than that... "ladies of war" aren't the only kind of women a guy can have a good, fulfilling relationship with. If it works for you, that's fine - but you should be aware that your style of relationship isn't necessarily the only working one.

[Meeki]

There seems to be some confusion over what the OP means by "white knight".

When describing relationships, this name is given to someone who has a role in a relationship where they are seen as a "savior" by the person they are dating and accept this position. The relationship is sustained by the behavior of needing to be saved from whatever; baggage from past relationships, debt, illness, etc...

Generally the "white knight" is actually seen as a strong person by who they are dating, someone who makes them feel safe and secure. However, the relationship will begin falter, as has been mentioned, if the white knight fails to rescue their SO.

The white knight doesn't even need to be a nice person, just be seen as someone who can rescue the other person.

The question the white knight needs to ask is: "Will my relationship falter if I do not come to her rescue?"

If the answer is 'no' then there is a white knight scenario in play.

The person who does nice stuff to get into someone's pants is a player not really a white knight.

[AstralFire]

And this is why I recommend never, ever using the term "white knight": it's a sarcastic adoption of a gender-defined and traditionally positive term such that every third person has a different view of what it means. :smalltongue:

[OverdrivePrime]

theangelJean & Mauve Shirt - Crow's definitely not saying that you don't deserve someone and don't deserve to be treated as well as you'd treat your partner if you had the chance. Sometimes people are totally willing, but still not capable of reciprocating sacrifice and care. That doesn't make anyone a bad person, or undeserving of kindness and care. It does mean that you need to put that on the table and talk to the target of your affection about it. If they understand that you can't take care of them to the same degree that they're taking care of you and they love you all the more, then you're in a good place.

Courage and honesty are the prerequisites of a healthy relationship.


"Stop being a doormat" would be a better title, and frankly, without context some of these things seem just fine. I've had SOs help me with major financial commitments, and I've gotten things for them that they've forgotten (even on a regular basis).
This -^

The true White Knight helps others for no other reason than because it is the right thing to do, for he is compassionate. It is not for any expectation of a reward. Those who act with with an expectation of reciprocation or entitlement are naught but tricksters undeserving of the mantle of knighthood.
And this -^

Being an altruist is very different than being a doormat.

What Crow is calling a White Knight is neither of these things. The kind of guy(or gal, but more commonly, guy) who puts himself in the position to be used as a crutch by the target of his affection... and then expects romantic commitment and/or sex in return for his service is neither an altruist nor a knight. He is a blackguard and a jerk.

It is a spineless, weasely thing to set yourself up as a dependable, reliable and trusted person, and then use guilt or the threat of withdrawal of your aid to manipulate your target of affection into romance or sex. These people belong in the same hell that I'd send pickup artists. They're emotional vampires.

On the other hand, I see so many people (men & women in about equal proportion) doormat themselves to some person who does not and will not return their affection in the way they want. Most are thought of as amazingly helpful friends, the worst are thought of as creepy stalkers, and the very unfortunate are thought of as dependable resources.

I get so frustrated at the doormat knight brigade because for years I did it myself, constantly trying to 'rescue' my lady fair - usually from her own bad decisions. I sacrificed all kinds of things (gladly!) to shield her from any pain or hardship. I threw away my college classes, several friends, thousands of dollars and thousands of hours just so that I could be her knight in shining armor - the one she always turned to make everything right to when things got uncomfortable. We even got engaged. Eventually, she inadvertently allowed me to understand my faithfulness and devotion wasn't returned in kind, and it probably never would be. That hurt. But I got better.

Eventually - after months of counseling - I was able to understand that I wasn't truly in love with her, I was in love with the idea of being her hero. She was in love with the idea of being loved, and it was realy convenient to have an ever-ready hero/doormat.

It feels good to be needed. For all of us. It feels good to help, and it feels great to be in love. But make sure that your love is returned in kind.


If the person you are always helping doesn't make sacrifices for you as well, that's an uneven relationship.
If you're in love and the other person sees you as a good friend or sibling, that's an uneven relationship.

In both cases, the uneven relationship is likely to continue on, festering, getting more weird and less satisfying for both parties until something breaks. Or, played better, until someone actually gets the guts to talk openly about what's happening.

[Johel]

Wow, I guess all us anxious, introverted ladies of the angsty nerd circuit don't deserve a guy then.

Naaaaan !!
Angst and introversion are fine in a lady, sometimes even cute if coupled with openmindness and politness.
It makes it easier for us not-so-socially-atuned guys to approach and please you initially (which is good for self-esteem).
Once things are more confortable, the introversion goes away and the relationship can really go both ways.

The problems are :
- when a girl EXPECTS to be treated like a princess simply because she is a girl.
- when a girl relies ONLY on us to solve problem / make her happy.

Both situations are wrong... and they are hell if they combine.
Basically, "white knighting" is to be expected occasionnally, because it pleases the girls, which make us feel happy (or at least useful).
But it must remain occasionnal for it to remain what it is : a nice gesture, not an social obligation.

[Tengu_temp]

And this is why I recommend never, ever using the term "white knight": it's a sarcastic adoption of a gender-defined and traditionally positive term such that every third person has a different view of what it means. :smalltongue:

This. It's one of those terms that lost all definitions these days, other than being generally negative.

Without using nebulous terms, the gist of what I understand here falls under those four points:
1. A healthy relationship has both sides give and take. A relationship that relies solely on one side being a martyr sacrifing him/herself for the other one is not healthy.
2. Don't let other people take advantage of your good will. There's altruism, and there's foolishness.
3. Expecting someone to date/have sex with you because you're being nice to them makes you a jerk. Just because you're nice doesn't mean you're entitled to anything.
4. Don't see women as delicate, fragile beings that can't do anything on their own and need protection from you, their knight in shining armor. That's not being a chivalrous gentleman, that's just sexist. Treat everyone as people.

[Meeki]

And this is why I recommend never, ever using the term "white knight": it's a sarcastic adoption of a gender-defined and traditionally positive term such that every third person has a different view of what it means. :smalltongue:

It's actually a pretty defined situation and issue in relationships discussions and psychology. Definitions may change slightly but at the core is dependency.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-white-knight-syndrome/200908/temporary-white-knights

[AstralFire]

White Knight is a pop psychology term and that looks like a pop psychology blog; at the very least, it's more of an "outreach" than an academic discussion. The term doesn't have academic origins and I've seen it used in other ways which don't have anything to do with dependency; the term as I originally saw it being used years ago referred to guys supporting female strangers and acquaintances (not significant others) in hopes of receiving romantic reciprocation, not a dependent caregiver relationship. :smallconfused: Defined? Forgive me if I'm skeptical. Florence Nightingale syndrome is more consistently defined and that's still not used for various reasons.

[Totally Guy]

I have been aware of the White Knight phenomenon for a while. For the longest time I was identifying myself as "not a white knight". But I don't think that's healthy either. We need to define ourselves by the things we do and are proud of and not the things we don't do.

[Meeki]

You can be skeptical, but when the term is used among relationship bloggers, writers, etc... it defines a certain set of behaviors and I've yet to see otherwise. Heck, even the PhD relationship psychology student I am good friends with uses the term. That is how I first heard of it.

I'm not referring to a dependent-caregiver relationships; the dependency is more about emotional dependency and a behavior to come to the "rescue" of someone in-need (or appearing in need).

Just toss the term in a search engine, there is a pretty strong commonality between all the articles referring to it. It's definitely not an academic term but is a commonly used name none the less.

I'm not an expert on the subject but I am just going by the common, repetitive definition I have read.

[OverdrivePrime]

Just toss the term in a search engine, there is a pretty strong commonality between all the articles referring to it. It's definitely not an academic term but is a commonly used name none the less.
I've worked in search engine marketing for waaay too long to completely trust anything defined by algorithmic consensus. :smalltongue:

We're getting too far afield. The most valuable conversation is about the behavior, not what the behavior is called.

[Karoht]

I agree with Crow.

As someone who fell into the nice guy trap and survived, I want to relay my story.

There was a girl, lets call her C. C seemed to always be dating jerks. They would isolate her from her friend group, drugs/alcohol were usually involved, douchebag words tended to come out of the guy's mouth, and then eventually, reports of hitting would happen, followed by a messy breakup. Literally, every guy she dated was scumbag steve.

Now, as a nice guy who did have a genuine interest in C, I won't lie, I didn't care if she dated me or not. I just wanted to see her date someone who didn't treat her like dirt. Anyone else. If it was me, bonus, if not, so what?
And she would constantly tell me that she always made the same mistakes, always fell for jerks, couldn't tell they were jerks until the end, etc.

The thing is, I would wait after the breakups. I intentionally gave her space after a breakup, I didn't want to be the 'crouching nice guy hidden vulture' or anything. I set a boundary. Minimum 4 weeks before I even think about asking her out. Less than 5 days after every breakup, she would be with someone else.

Eventually, as a dumb teenager, I came to realize that when she said "I wish I could find a nice guy like you" that meant she was not interested in me, and likely never would be. Part of how I also came to the realization that I just wanted her to date someone who didn't treat her like dirt, even if it wasn't me.

Also, as a dumb teenager, I fell into the same trap of thinking that girls wanted guys who were jerks for some reason. I later moved on from this line of thinking. I don't claim to know why so many seem to gravitate towards the jerks, but what I do know is that no lady WANTS a jerk to be a jerk to her. These attitudes are all from about 15 years ago, I'm rather glad I matured and moved on from them. I'm also glad that she and I never actually dated, I think it would have been a complete disaster.

Be a nice guy. But don't do it to win the girl. Do it because you are sincerely a nice guy. That sincerity goes a long way as well.

[Meeki]

You mean Urban Dictionary isn't a valid source?

In the end all the articles and books and radio casts are shady but the term comes from shady places.

[Kalmageddon]

Amen to the OP...

I'd like to add: stop idealizing women.
...And I think I'll stop here, knowing this forum there would be plenty of flames if I voiced my opinion about male-female relationships.

[Coidzor]

And this is why I recommend never, ever using the term "white knight": it's a sarcastic adoption of a gender-defined and traditionally positive term such that every third person has a different view of what it means. :smalltongue:

Honestly I don't know if it means anything anymore with how you can get 3 people in a room and come out with 9 different meanings.

[Karoht]

Honestly I don't know if it means anything anymore with how you can get 3 people in a room and come out with 9 different meanings.Ironically, the word Chivalry typically comes with the same problem. Unless those 3 people are history buffs that is. :smallwink:

That is more or less why I used the term 'nice guy' and even that term gets a bit muddy.

Relevant TVTropes link, the bottom of the page has several ways the 'Nice Guy' can go, and I've personally witnessed all of them in real life. Anecdotal, but there it is.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceGuy

[Coidzor]

Ironically, the word Chivalry typically comes with the same problem. Unless those 3 people are history buffs that is. :smallwink:

That is more or less why I used the term 'nice guy' and even that term gets a bit muddy.

Relevant TVTropes link, the bottom of the page has several ways the 'Nice Guy' can go, and I've personally witnessed all of them in real life. Anecdotal, but there it is.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceGuy

I have to admit though, this is the first time I've heard it applied to boyfriends picking up the slack their girlfriends leave and helping them out. I mean, really, once you're at a place where it's assumed that you're having sex semi-regularly, where's the "just doing it to try to get into her pants" angle supposed to be?

edit:


Wow, I guess all us anxious, introverted ladies of the angsty nerd circuit don't deserve a guy then.

I thought introverts came with an automatic +1 to self-reliant since they didn't like other people enough to seek external validation. :smallconfused:

[Mauve Shirt]

I thought introverts came with an automatic +1 to self-reliant since they didn't like other people enough to seek external validation. :smallconfused:

Introvert doesn't mean "dislikes other people". It doesn't necessarily mean "socially inept" or even "shy". It means that social gatherings take a lot out of you and you gain energy from being inside yourself. Introverts still have friends, enjoy going out and having relationships. They just need to refuel with some silence.
It also is not-uncommonly paired with shyness and anxiety in situations in which much is expected of the introvert.

[OverdrivePrime]

Introvert doesn't mean "dislikes other people". It doesn't necessarily mean "socially inept" or even "shy". It means that social gatherings take a lot out of you and you gain energy from being inside yourself. Introverts still have friends, enjoy going out and having relationships. They just need to refuel with some silence.
It also is not-uncommonly paired with shyness and anxiety in situations in which much is expected of the introvert.

I don't normally read about introversion being paired with a lack of interest in romantic relationships, or an unwillingness to do nice things on behalf of a person high on one's "awesome and smoochable" list, so I don't see how being an introvert would keep someone out of a healthy relationship. Or at least once you get around the problem of enduring social gatherings long enough to meet someone and get to know that they're awesome and smoochable.

[JustSomeGuy]

If it helps, having studied sports psychology (or more accurately, dabbled with reading something resembling a book), the terms introverted and extroverted take on a different meaning, stemming from intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation:

Introverted athletes draw inspiration and motivation for success from within themselves, ie. they perform becasue they want to fulfill their own needs - like the guy who gets knocked down and has a little word with himself before gritting hsi teetch and getting back up again.

Extroverted athletes draw inspiration and motivation from others, they desire to perform to impress their teamates/opposition/coaches etc. or achieve rewards, such as bonuses, better contracts, sponsorship deals, tv spots and adulation from their home nation and press/media. That would be the guy who gets knocked down, and the crowd start chanting and cheering, willing him back on to his feet as he rides the wave of emotion to spur him on.

I always used to think of myself as an extrovert, but when i was taught this i realised i wasn't at all - measuring how popular you think you are and how you interact with varying groups of friends and aquaintances is a really inaccurate way to define yourself (especially as everyone has close friends and a wider circle of aquaintances, colleagues and indirect friends, and how quickly you make new friends or how confident you are leading a group or talking in front of a crowd doesn't really reflect your character as much as your personality, confidence and situational needs). I like these alternative definitions!

[Coidzor]

Introvert doesn't mean "dislikes other people". It doesn't necessarily mean "socially inept" or even "shy". It means that social gatherings take a lot out of you and you gain energy from being inside yourself. Introverts still have friends, enjoy going out and having relationships. They just need to refuel with some silence.
It also is not-uncommonly paired with shyness and anxiety in situations in which much is expected of the introvert.

Blue text aside,:smalltongue: I don't really see how that would do anything besides give someone a nudge towards being self-oriented and self-reliant, since being around others, even lovers, is inherently draining.

[Mauve Shirt]

All I know is, I prefer to be alone when the alternative is in a noisy room filled with people I don't know, because such situations are stressful. Maybe I'm a secret extrovert though, as my stress comes almost entirely from a desire to not be disliked or considered "weird" or whatever.
My angst over others' perception of me and my inability to make decisions have gotten me called "needy" which is why I mentioned my introverted nature in the first place.

[Spanish_Paladin]

I am introverted also. And for guys is worse, because we are supossed to take the first step. :smallfrown:

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Women, however, should feel free to be wholly subservient in relationships as per the longstanding societal tradition? Seriously, though, what is up with how super-duper-duper gendered the OP is?


White Knighting is a very confusing subject. It could mean anything from working against the endemic sexism of gamer culture to trying to get into women's pants by being nice to them.

Or totally banging Gwen behind A-dog's back.

[OverdrivePrime]

All I know is, I prefer to be alone when the alternative is in a noisy room filled with people I don't know, because such situations are stressful. Maybe I'm a secret extrovert though, as my stress comes almost entirely from a desire to not be disliked or considered "weird" or whatever.
My angst over others' perception of me and my inability to make decisions have gotten me called "needy" which is why I mentioned my introverted nature in the first place.

Most people I know have gone through at least some anxiety over whether or not other people like them or think they're weird. It makes you normal. If your anxiety is serious enough to keep you from living the life you want, would you consider seeing a counselor? Counseling has been instrumental in helping me shape myself into the man I want to be. I recommend looking into it if you feel that a part of you is holding yourself back from a fulfilling life. And many workplace insurance plans will at least partially cover mental health services.


I am introverted also. And for guys is worse, because we are supossed to take the first step. :smallfrown:
You're roguishly handsome and have a cool sword and leather jacket. Just swagger around town and I'm sure the ladies will throw themselves at you. :smallsmile:

[Spanish_Paladin]

Spanish ladies can be difficult to conquest, and i am not so optmistic about myself. But thanks, you are very nice :smallsmile:

[Crow]

Women, however, should feel free to be wholly subservient in relationships as per the longstanding societal tradition? Seriously, though, what is up with how super-duper-duper gendered the OP is?

Who the hell said anything about that? Did you even read the OP?

To everyone else: Great discussion. Even though I am not piping in, I am following along. As I expected, some people are getting it, while others are not. I chalk that up to my poor writing and inability to put to text the things that go through my head in a clear manner. So sorry about that! Some simply disagree, and that's fine.

There's nothing wrong with introverted women, or those who actually do need a little help with things. We all do from time to time. No hostility is going your way. The hostility is directed towards the boys. :smallsmile: In fact, if you're reading this post, chances are you are not the type of woman this topic is discussing.

[The Succubus]

There's nothing wrong with introverted women, or those who actually do need a little help with things. We all do from time to time. No hostility is going your way. The hostility is directed towards the boys. :smallsmile: In fact, if you're reading this post, chances are you are not the type of woman this topic is discussing.

Not very open minded, are you? Just because a behaviour is rarer in another gender, it can be disregarded entirely?

Women are just as capable as engaging in White Knight behaviour.

[Crow]

Not very open minded, are you? Just because a behaviour is rarer in another gender, it can be disregarded entirely?

Women are just as capable as engaging in White Knight behaviour.

Holy crap it was a joke. Yes, it can go both ways. I am not saying that female white knights can be disregarded. I wouldn't even go as far as to say that it is rarer in any one gender than the other.

But as a male with a lifetime of experience being male, I was directing my OP to other males, as per the title. I don't feel confident taking a stab at addressing cases of feminine white knighting.

It seems like there are a few people here who disagree with me, and that is fine. But accusing me of sexism isn't fair, and assumes that I targeted my post towards all men, and within it was discussing all women.

[Slipperychicken]

I find that for every possible approach to dealing with women, someone will denounce it as sexist, demeaning, boring, patronizing, ineffective, or otherwise morally wrong. I am thus tempted to conclude that there is no right answer, only an abundance of wrong ones.

[JustSomeGuy]

Guys, you should know that interacting with women at all is morally wrong, because cooties.

[The Succubus]

Guys, you should know that interacting with women at all is morally wrong, because cooties.

Finally! Someone that speaks sense here!

[Mauve Shirt]

Guys, you should know that interacting with women at all is morally wrong, because cooties.

:smallbiggrin:

[Ulysses WkAmil]

Ah, gender wars in the playground. It's like a real playground, but we're older. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

Personally, I advocate uploading every adult into a personalized virtual paradise and creating new humans by randomized in-vitro fertilization followed by growing in vats.

It solves so many relationship problems.

[Frozen_Feet]

"Stop being a doormat" would be a better title.

This. So much this. People really should stop using confusing euphenisms for passive-aggressive doormats, and instead call them just that.

[noparlpf]

Guys, you should know that interacting with women at all is morally wrong, because cooties.

Yeah, makes sense to me.

[Coidzor]

Guys, you should know that interacting with women at all is morally wrong, because cooties.

Yeah, pretty much. :smallamused:

[Mono Vertigo]

Yeah, it is scientifically proven we have cooties.

[Spanish_Paladin]

Ha ha... girls have cooties :smallbiggrin:

[Hazyshade]

Hmm.

A man starts a thread in a public forum, loudly and Socratically berating members of his own gender for their jerkish treatment of women, and letting them know what women are really looking for in a man. And letting any women who may be reading know what they ought to be looking for in a man, and hoping they'll applaud him for saving them from the sea of jerks with his reasoned, self-effacing performance.

Does that sound a bit White Knight-ish to anyone else?

[Meeki]

That sounds more like Neon Mauve Knight behavior.

[The Succubus]

Hmm.

A man starts a thread in a public forum, loudly and Socratically berating members of his own gender for their jerkish treatment of women, and letting them know what women are really looking for in a man. And letting any women who may be reading know what they ought to be looking for in a man, and hoping they'll applaud him for saving them from the sea of jerks with his reasoned, self-effacing performance.

Does that sound a bit White Knight-ish to anyone else?

I laughed. A lot. :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

I laughed. A lot. :smallbiggrin:

Second (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OemNp6hgX4).


That sounds more like Neon Mauve Knight behavior.

Nah, Mauve's just made of win when she's knighting it up.

[Meeki]

Second (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OemNp6hgX4).



Nah, Mauve's just made of win when she's knighting it up.

Lol, I did not realize someone used the name Mauve.

Ok, Neon Chartreuse? That is kind of a sickly color.

[Just_Ice]

Basically if a relationship exhibits the same characteristics as a harmful drug addiction for an extended period of time then it needs to stop. There are other reasons to terminate relationships, but I don't think it's easy to disagree with that one.

Also taupe is clearly the best colour and taupe knights are what women want

[JustSomeGuy]

I vote for romantic moonlit knights by the shore

[The Succubus]

"One of these knights...one of these crazy lonely knights..."

Man, The Eagles knew all about relationship stuff.

[Eldan]

Now I know why women don't want me. All these years, I painted myself in lime and tan tartan when running naked through the streets, when I should have gone with chartreuse and taupe.

[Crow]

Hmm.

A man starts a thread in a public forum, loudly and Socratically berating members of his own gender for their jerkish treatment of women, and letting them know what women are really looking for in a man. And letting any women who may be reading know what they ought to be looking for in a man, and hoping they'll applaud him for saving them from the sea of jerks with his reasoned, self-effacing performance.

Does that sound a bit White Knight-ish to anyone else?

This was a pretty funny comment, but too bad it isn't true.

Actually, if you had read the original post, you would see that the issue is not about men and their jerkish behavior, it is about men becoming nice guy doormats in their need to validate themselves by "rescuing" girls. I'm not telling men what a woman is looking for because everyone is looking for something different, and because again, if you had read the original post, some people ARE looking for doormats. I'm also not trying to tell any woman what she should be looking for a man. I'm not even sure where you got that from.

But I guess if you're looking for a reason to cry sexism, closed mindedness, or to just be snarky, you'll find something. No matter how ridiculous it makes you sound.

[AstralFire]

I can't speak for that person, but I read it less as a serious attempt to lambast you for White Knighting and more to mock the fact that term can be so easily applied to a lot of things via the fact that


. . . I guess if you're looking for a reason . . . you'll find something. No matter how ridiculous it makes you sound.

That is to say, if you're looking to find a reason to use the term white knight, you usually will. That's been my experience with it around the internet.

I don't think anyone's exactly disagreed with your core message here, so much as there's concern over your framing, from various angles (gender politics, precision of language, the fact that your intended audience may outright misread the lessons you're attempting to impart due to the ambiguity and brevity of your post.)

[Crow]

Yeah, I chalk that up to my general lack of skill with the English language.

When I chose the term White Knight, I was going off of the term as it is often used in psychology. That being the first time I had ever seen the term, that was the definition I was going off of.

[Coidzor]

This was a pretty funny comment, but too bad it isn't true.

I mentally added in some blue myself.

[Mx.Silver]

I vote for romantic moonlit knights by the shore

I always felt that those dark, stormy knights don't get enough appreciation.

[Hazyshade]

Doormat Logic:

Man, look at those jerks! All they do is abuse, neglect and generally treat women like they're worthless.
No woman should come to expect that her partner will meet none of her needs any of the time. That's not a healthy relationship.
We must save women from unhealthy relationships!
Luckily, I am here with the solution...
I will meet ALL of my woman's needs!
You should do the same, guys!


Crow Logic:

Man, look at those doormats! All they do is prostrate themselves in front of their women and generally treat them like perfect deities.
No woman should come to expect that her partner will meet all of her needs all of the time. That's not a healthy relationship.
We must save women from unhealthy relationships!
Luckily, I am here with the solution...
I will create an environment of mutual trust in which my woman is able to acknowledge any dependency issues she might have, while maintaining my own private head-spaces and interests outside of the relationship.
...
Actually, no, wait...
I will dismiss all women with dependency issues as broken princesses not worth dating or befriending, and avoid them.
You should do the same, guys!


Please note that should you disagree with any of the above, it's only because my darned clumsiness with the English language is obscuring my otherwise irrefutable point.

[AstralFire]

Eh. Though 'm (obviously) not positive about this topic for a number of reasons... It was made as a venting topic after seeing a personal friend be treated poorly. I'm think that you're (still) being hyperbolic to make a point, but making accusations like that (which seem unfounded) isn't helpful

[OverdrivePrime]

Crow Logic:

I will dismiss all women with dependency issues as broken princesses not worth dating or befriending, and avoid them.


Please note that should you disagree with any of the above, it's only because my darned clumsiness with the English language is obscuring my otherwise irrefutable point.

I hope you meant for that to be in blue, because that's not at all what was in the content of Crow's posts in this thread. If that's what you're reading, it's because you put it there.

And like AstralFire says, Crow is addressing men, because that's what he knows. He's not a gender researcher; he isn't presenting this to a professional journal. Attempting to shame the man for not writing up an annotated article with a gender-neutral approach to all audiences is kind of silly.

[Trog]

Guys, you should know that interacting with women at all is morally wrong, because cooties.
GAH! D: *hides*


Neon Chartreuse?
GAH! D8 *double hides*

[Spanish_Paladin]

Did someone saw that??

.....
........
.......

Probably i am imagining things

:smalltongue:

[Mauve Shirt]

Nah, Mauve's just made of win when she's knighting it up.

This thread is just chock o block full of sig quotes!

[The Rose Dragon]

Did someone saw that??

I did not, in fact, saw anything. I do not even own a saw with which to saw things.

[Spanish_Paladin]

I did not, in fact, saw anything. I do not even own a saw with which to saw things.

Damn!, did i make a mistake? ... i think 'saw' is the past form of the verb 'see' . :smalleek:

We, spaniards, are terrible with english XD

[The Rose Dragon]

It is, but you do not use the past tense after "did", since it is already the past tense. You use the present tense instead. So it would be "did someone see that", not "did someone saw that", which asks whether someone cut that with a saw or not.

[Spanish_Paladin]

You are right, of course, my apologies :smalleek:

[The Rose Dragon]

No need to apologize. As the saying goes, "there is no shame in not knowing, only not learning".

((I don't know whether that saying actually exists in English or not.))

_/_/_/_/

Topic! Hm.

I believe it is best to approach each girl, and indeed each relationship, whether it be with a guy or a girl, romantic or platonic, sexual or celibate, differently. In fact I believe it so strongly that I am planning to write a choose your own adventure novel about it.

[Spanish_Paladin]

No need to apologize. As the saying goes, "there is no shame in not knowing, only not learning".

((I don't know whether that saying actually exists in English or not.))

_/_/_/_/

Topic! Hm.

I believe it is best to approach each girl, and indeed each relationship, whether it be with a guy or a girl, romantic or platonic, sexual or celibate, differently. In fact I believe it so strongly that I am planning to write a choose your own adventure novel about it.

It's a good saying, in english or spanish :smallsmile:

[zimmerwald1915]

What you need to do, is understand that you are a good man. You have everything it takes to win the affection of a strong, self-reliant woman, which is the key.
It's nice to flatter your audience, but this is not necessarily true; not every man reading your post is a good man who has what it takes to win the affection of a strong, self-reliant woman. That doesn't mean they should embrace sexist behavior, but it is something men need to be honest with themselves about, and it means that they should take extra special care not to prey upon women who are not strong and self-reliant.

[Hazyshade]

"Broken princesses" - it's right there in the original post:



But once again, you are doing it wrong. In the effort to fulfill this need of yours, you are attracting these broken princesses that you can come to the rescue for. Stop!

...

What you need to do, is understand that you are a good man. You have everything it takes to win the affection of a strong, self-reliant woman, which is the key.

...

As a man who has been married to a strong, self-reliant woman for a long time, and who has seen many of his friends fall to broken princesses, that's all I've got.

What Crow's saying is okay - messianic tone aside - until he takes that left turn into "women are the problem" territory.

There's nothing to stop you having a healthy relationship with a woman who doesn't live up to some ideal of strength and self-reliance, if you're actually attracted to her other qualities. Don't try to blame her personality for causing, or encouraging, your doormat-ish behaviours.

Distancing yourself from someone because you've labelled her a broken princess is doing it wrong. It is probably even worse than bringing her lunch, in my opinion.

[OverdrivePrime]

Distancing yourself from someone because you've labelled her a broken princess is doing it wrong. It is probably even worse than bringing her lunch, in my opinion.

/nods seriously

Indeed. Labeling a person is not helpful. Labeling their lunch often is.

Seriously though, my brother-in-law just got out of a relationship like this. He was dating this woman for eight or nine months, and he was constantly trying to 'rescue' her from all of the problems of the world, and desperately trying to find a way to make her happy in a lasting way. Eventually he realized that he was not equipped to give her the help she needed.

The breakup was not pretty.

[AstralFire]

I don't think Hazy's arguing that toxic people don't exist, just that it's dangerous to frame women into "perfect, self-reliant people" and "broken princesses" (which it is, and while the latter isn't an inherently offensive phrase, it is somewhat offensive to use as a broad category, because it then implies that a "working princess" is the right type of woman. Again, I am sure that that is not Crow's intention, but it nevertheless jumps out at me.)

I don't think that was Crow's intention, which is why I took exception to Hazy's penultimate post, but while I don't hold it against Crow that he didn't use the right words, it is only right that it be pointed out. And finally, I appreciate the attempt to edit the first post.

[Karoht]

Again, being completely honest with my experience.

Doormat Logic:

Man, look at those jerks! All they do is abuse, neglect and generally treat women like they're worthless. (CHECK!)
No woman should come to expect that her partner will meet none of her needs any of the time. That's not a healthy relationship. (CHECK!)
We must save women from unhealthy relationships! (Um, Sure?)
Luckily, I am here with the solution... (YES! Wait, what?)

And that was about where I caught myself in the Nice Guy/White Knight logic cycle. Thankfully I realized that I was not a solution. I could encourage her to date people who were not complete douches, I could help her recognize an unhealthy relationship, but the two of us dating simply wasn't an option.

From there, it was still unfortunate. It sucked watching her go from one guy to the next, not able to recognize the pattern that all of her friends could see. It sucked trying to be there for her, knowing that in a matter of weeks we would go through it all again. In that situation it really is easy to think to ones self, "Man, I really would be perfect for her, we would work so well" and knowing that it would never happen.
Maybe I tricked myself into believing that I was attracted to her because I wanted to help. Maybe the White Knight complex really does run that deep.
Either way, I am still very glad that I moved on and I didn't turn into 'that guy.'

[Slipperychicken]

Now I know why women don't want me. All these years, I painted myself in lime and tan tartan when running naked through the streets, when I should have gone with chartreuse and taupe.

You might get better results with blue Celtic war-paint and a possibly a loincloth. Shoulder-length hair and muscles are your friends here.

[Coidzor]

You might get better results with blue Celtic war-paint and a possibly a loincloth. Shoulder-length hair and muscles are your friends here.

Nae, ye want a kilt if yer going with the blue war paint. Long, flowing, improbably well-conditioned and luxurious hair helps in a pinch too.

[Tengu_temp]

Complete sidenote, but I'm not a fan of using blue text for sarcasm, especially if you insist other people do that too. Just make it blatantly clear that you're being sarcastic, tone of voice cannot be heard on the internet but it's honestly not that hard.


I am introverted also. And for guys is worse, because we are supossed to take the first step. :smallfrown:

I'd say introverted women have it harder than introverted men, actually. An introverted man can still be perceived as a stoic, cool lone wolf, but the masses expect women to be socially active, and an introverted one will often be seen as weird.

[TaiLiu]

I'd say introverted women have it harder than introverted men, actually. An introverted man can still be perceived as a stoic, cool lone wolf, but the masses expect women to be socially active, and an introverted one will often be seen as weird.
Hm. I must admit, I am not as familiar with stereotypes than many people, but is there not a stereotype of the "quiet, sweet, obedient woman?"

[Yora]

Having some decency and kindness never hurt anyone. Just do it with style! :smallcool:

[Arcanist]

The best way to stop being a Doormat is to start telling the truth. Not just to the people around you, but to yourself.

As the old saying goes: "The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off."

[Hattish Thing]

This... This whole subject just makes my blood curdle. Alright. Now. Let's get to work here.

I recently came out of a seven year long relationship that ended... Quite terribly. But grief aside, I was gifted with seven long happy years.

I met her through a friend of mine who was dating her. Now, he wasn't a friend as much of a person I had to be around, who I really didn't like. He was taller than me, more muscular, and a wrestler. Top of his class. It was our last year and all three of us were very mature. He was dating a beautiful young woman, with shoulder-length red hair, and gorgeous green and gold eyes. She was always very much... Extremely attractive to me. What with her dark pants and Les Mis shirt, and her absolutely dazzling white smile...

I loved her. Really. But I am not the kind of person to undermine another's relationship. Anyway, I started talking to her a lot. She was an actress like me. Extremely talented, and beautiful. Perfect combination in an actress. I... Really enjoyed her company, and we'd talk all the time. Eventually she came to me one afternoon, in tears. Her make-up was all smeared, and her hair was all messy. Not normal for her, she's very tidy. She... Told me she had gotten into a really bad fight with him. I could do nothing about it but comfort her.

See, if I talked to him... He would severely injure me. He was the kind of person she wanted to fix, and make into a good person. He was a complete slime. He had fought with her because she wouldn't have sex with him, and they'd been dating for three months. :smallsigh: This pissed me off, but I couldn't do anything. Eventually it got to the point where she began being seriously hurt. And... Self-harming. It was really, really painful for me to see her so bad. But I could do nothing. If I told her parents, or anyone... My extreme parent would have not let me seen her ever again.

So, I did what I could. I held her... I wiped tears from her face... I did everything I could, but she would not give up on him. Then... She stopped talking to me, and began avoiding me. This hurt me a **** ton. The girl I loved and care for ignoring me. I found out through my friend that he somehow found out that she and I were very good friends, and made her stay away from me under threat he'd hurt me. (He was a ********. A smart one though, unfortunately.) Soo... for four weeks she didn't talk to me. Until one day I accidentally ran into her at the coffee shop nearby.

She began talking to me. She felt so terrible, I could tell. She wore long sleeve shirts and it was hot weather. I asked why... And she couldn't speak. I remember this all so vividly. :smallsigh: I held her hands and talked to her. She couldn't be away, she needed a friend. She had lost her virginity to him, and hated it. But she couldn't say no to him. (He had pretty much managed to completely control her life, and being an extremely popular guy, had made it clear that if someone didn't give him what he wanted he would spread nasty, nasty rumors about the person. Everyone would listen to him too. A dumb jock is easy. A smart one... Well...)

She said she wanted to leave him, and that she never wanted to see him again. Then she... Told me she loved me. And kissed me. It was such an amazing feeling... :smallredface: :smallfrown: But she told me, that she couldn't leave. That he would make her life Hell. So. I thought up a plan. I had to talk to him. Being a ballsy, kinda rash 17 year old... I went up to him the day after and tried to talk to him the day after. It was in front of a bunch of students after school.

I confronted him about her, and told him that she was leaving, and that if he went by her, I would be sure to be by her side. (I was such a dumbass.) He attacked me. Two punches to the face, and one to the stomach. I fell to the ground. Aaaand, he had the ****ing balls to kick me in the face. (Broke my nose, by the way.) But. You see, it was in front of a loooot of students who were hanging out. So they all saw what he did to a guy who was sticking out for a girl he loved, who hadn't even insulted him. They all passed around the news, and began to support me and her over him.

Of course, no adults were by, so it wasn't seen. And I simply blamed my broken nose on tripping. (Which my parent bought, by the way.) So, she left him and we started dating. She stopped self-harm, and we were very happy. Extremely happy... For seven years. Until it ended. But I'm not talking about that.


So, you see.... This "White Knight" garbage? If you're a guy who cares about a girl, have the balls to help her if she's dealing with a hurtful relationship. And do not expect love or sex or anything like that. It must be selfless. Okay?

[TaiLiu]

This... This whole subject just makes my blood curdle. Alright. Now. Let's get to work here.

I recently came out of a seven year long relationship that ended... Quite terribly. But grief aside, I was gifted with seven long happy years.

I met her through a friend of mine who was dating her. Now, he wasn't a friend as much of a person I had to be around, who I really didn't like. He was taller than me, more muscular, and a wrestler. Top of his class. It was our last year and all three of us were very mature. He was dating a beautiful young woman, with shoulder-length red hair, and gorgeous green and gold eyes. She was always very much... Extremely attractive to me. What with her dark pants and Les Mis shirt, and her absolutely dazzling white smile...

I loved her. Really. But I am not the kind of person to undermine another's relationship. Anyway, I started talking to her a lot. She was an actress like me. Extremely talented, and beautiful. Perfect combination in an actress. I... Really enjoyed her company, and we'd talk all the time. Eventually she came to me one afternoon, in tears. Her make-up was all smeared, and her hair was all messy. Not normal for her, she's very tidy. She... Told me she had gotten into a really bad fight with him. I could do nothing about it but comfort her.

See, if I talked to him... He would severely injure me. He was the kind of person she wanted to fix, and make into a good person. He was a complete slime. He had fought with her because she wouldn't have sex with him, and they'd been dating for three months. :smallsigh: This pissed me off, but I couldn't do anything. Eventually it got to the point where she began being seriously hurt. And... Self-harming. It was really, really painful for me to see her so bad. But I could do nothing. If I told her parents, or anyone... My extreme parent would have not let me seen her ever again.

So, I did what I could. I held her... I wiped tears from her face... I did everything I could, but she would not give up on him. Then... She stopped talking to me, and began avoiding me. This hurt me a **** ton. The girl I loved and care for ignoring me. I found out through my friend that he somehow found out that she and I were very good friends, and made her stay away from me under threat he'd hurt me. (He was a ********. A smart one though, unfortunately.) Soo... for four weeks she didn't talk to me. Until one day I accidentally ran into her at the coffee shop nearby.

She began talking to me. She felt so terrible, I could tell. She wore long sleeve shirts and it was hot weather. I asked why... And she couldn't speak. I remember this all so vividly. :smallsigh: I held her hands and talked to her. She couldn't be away, she needed a friend. She had lost her virginity to him, and hated it. But she couldn't say no to him. (He had pretty much managed to completely control her life, and being an extremely popular guy, had made it clear that if someone didn't give him what he wanted he would spread nasty, nasty rumors about the person. Everyone would listen to him too. A dumb jock is easy. A smart one... Well...)

She said she wanted to leave him, and that she never wanted to see him again. Then she... Told me she loved me. And kissed me. It was such an amazing feeling... :smallredface: :smallfrown: But she told me, that she couldn't leave. That he would make her life Hell. So. I thought up a plan. I had to talk to him. Being a ballsy, kinda rash 17 year old... I went up to him the day after and tried to talk to him the day after. It was in front of a bunch of students after school.

I confronted him about her, and told him that she was leaving, and that if he went by her, I would be sure to be by her side. (I was such a dumbass.) He attacked me. Two punches to the face, and one to the stomach. I fell to the ground. Aaaand, he had the ****ing balls to kick me in the face. (Broke my nose, by the way.) But. You see, it was in front of a loooot of students who were hanging out. So they all saw what he did to a guy who was sticking out for a girl he loved, who hadn't even insulted him. They all passed around the news, and began to support me and her over him.

Of course, no adults were by, so it wasn't seen. And I simply blamed my broken nose on tripping. (Which my parent bought, by the way.) So, she left him and we started dating. She stopped self-harm, and we were very happy. Extremely happy... For seven years. Until it ended. But I'm not talking about that.
Ah. This is the full story, I see. :smallfrown:

[Arcanist]

This... This whole subject just makes my blood curdle. Alright. Now. Let's get to work here.

I recently came out of a seven year long relationship that ended... Quite terribly. But grief aside, I was gifted with seven long happy years.

I met her through a friend of mine who was dating her. Now, he wasn't a friend as much of a person I had to be around, who I really didn't like. He was taller than me, more muscular, and a wrestler. Top of his class. It was our last year and all three of us were very mature. He was dating a beautiful young woman, with shoulder-length red hair, and gorgeous green and gold eyes. She was always very much... Extremely attractive to me. What with her dark pants and Les Mis shirt, and her absolutely dazzling white smile...

I loved her. Really. But I am not the kind of person to undermine another's relationship. Anyway, I started talking to her a lot. She was an actress like me. Extremely talented, and beautiful. Perfect combination in an actress. I... Really enjoyed her company, and we'd talk all the time. Eventually she came to me one afternoon, in tears. Her make-up was all smeared, and her hair was all messy. Not normal for her, she's very tidy. She... Told me she had gotten into a really bad fight with him. I could do nothing about it but comfort her.

See, if I talked to him... He would severely injure me. He was the kind of person she wanted to fix, and make into a good person. He was a complete slime. He had fought with her because she wouldn't have sex with him, and they'd been dating for three months. :smallsigh: This pissed me off, but I couldn't do anything. Eventually it got to the point where she began being seriously hurt. And... Self-harming. It was really, really painful for me to see her so bad. But I could do nothing. If I told her parents, or anyone... My extreme parent would have not let me seen her ever again.

So, I did what I could. I held her... I wiped tears from her face... I did everything I could, but she would not give up on him. Then... She stopped talking to me, and began avoiding me. This hurt me a **** ton. The girl I loved and care for ignoring me. I found out through my friend that he somehow found out that she and I were very good friends, and made her stay away from me under threat he'd hurt me. (He was a ********. A smart one though, unfortunately.) Soo... for four weeks she didn't talk to me. Until one day I accidentally ran into her at the coffee shop nearby.

She began talking to me. She felt so terrible, I could tell. She wore long sleeve shirts and it was hot weather. I asked why... And she couldn't speak. I remember this all so vividly. :smallsigh: I held her hands and talked to her. She couldn't be away, she needed a friend. She had lost her virginity to him, and hated it. But she couldn't say no to him. (He had pretty much managed to completely control her life, and being an extremely popular guy, had made it clear that if someone didn't give him what he wanted he would spread nasty, nasty rumors about the person. Everyone would listen to him too. A dumb jock is easy. A smart one... Well...)

She said she wanted to leave him, and that she never wanted to see him again. Then she... Told me she loved me. And kissed me. It was such an amazing feeling... :smallredface: :smallfrown: But she told me, that she couldn't leave. That he would make her life Hell. So. I thought up a plan. I had to talk to him. Being a ballsy, kinda rash 17 year old... I went up to him the day after and tried to talk to him the day after. It was in front of a bunch of students after school.

I confronted him about her, and told him that she was leaving, and that if he went by her, I would be sure to be by her side. (I was such a dumbass.) He attacked me. Two punches to the face, and one to the stomach. I fell to the ground. Aaaand, he had the ****ing balls to kick me in the face. (Broke my nose, by the way.) But. You see, it was in front of a loooot of students who were hanging out. So they all saw what he did to a guy who was sticking out for a girl he loved, who hadn't even insulted him. They all passed around the news, and began to support me and her over him.

Of course, no adults were by, so it wasn't seen. And I simply blamed my broken nose on tripping. (Which my parent bought, by the way.) So, she left him and we started dating. She stopped self-harm, and we were very happy. Extremely happy... For seven years. Until it ended. But I'm not talking about that.


So, you see.... This "White Knight" garbage? If you're a guy who cares about a girl, have the balls to help her if she's dealing with a hurtful relationship. And do not expect love or sex or anything like that. It must be selfless. Okay?

... I don't want these beautiful, beautiful feels... Mad Hatter, I want to hug you, bake you up some pizza and watch stupid romance movies with you... :smallredface: :smallfrown:

[Hattish Thing]

Ah. This is the full story, I see. :smallfrown:


And you see how threads like this make me want to punt puppies. :smallannoyed::smallmad::smallfurious:

[Hattish Thing]

... I don't want these beautiful, beautiful feels... Mad Hatter, I want to hug you, bake you up some pizza and watch stupid romance movies with you... :smallredface:


It... Didn't end well. I'm going to leave it at that. I would really appreciate the pizza though. :smallfrown::smallsigh:

The good things never last. But seven years. Those will be the best in my life.

[The Succubus]

And you see how threads like this make me want to punt puppies. :smallannoyed::smallmad::smallfurious:

And this is why I'll never stop being a White Knight. There are people in this world, both boys and girls, that need someone to reach out to them because they can't reach out themselves. So **** tropes, titles or armchair psychology - you are a genuine white knight, Mad Hatter and a good soul.

[Hattish Thing]

And this is why I'll never stop being a White Knight. There are people in this world, both boys and girls, that need someone to reach out to them because they can't reach out themselves. So **** tropes, titles or armchair psychology - you are a genuine white knight, Mad Hatter and a good soul.

Fat lot a good soul does in the end. :smallannoyed:

Anyway, trying to quit being such a negative old Scrooge.

As you said, there are certain people in the world that are either too weak, or too honorable, or too trusting of a partner in an abusive relationship to leave. And if people like me were not there to help these people...

Just think of what would have happened to my love if I had not been there, or had not ran into her at the coffee shop...

[OhMyGodImOnFire]

You, my friend, are a hero to all men desperate for affection. I was once that person but just like you, I was able to meet a strong, self-reliant woman, and I have become more confident, both in myself and in general as a result of it. Preach on, brother, thou shalt not feel the flames of hate this day.

Oh and this:


Stop being the white knight off to rescue the princess. Instead, be the white knight looking for a lady of war to fight by his side.

is going in my signature.

[Spanish_Paladin]

Complete sidenote, but I'm not a fan of using blue text for sarcasm, especially if you insist other people do that too. Just make it blatantly clear that you're being sarcastic, tone of voice cannot be heard on the internet but it's honestly not that hard.



I'd say introverted women have it harder than introverted men, actually. An introverted man can still be perceived as a stoic, cool lone wolf, but the masses expect women to be socially active, and an introverted one will often be seen as weird.

Believe me, the 'lone wolf ' thing doesn't works, at least in my experience..

[OhMyGodImOnFire]

So I've finally read the comments after making my post, and I get the feeling people are taking what Crow said a little too seriously.

There's no problem with helping out a girl in need - absolutely none (and if that's what Crow was actually going for then I retract my previous statement). In cases like Mad Hatter and the girl he loved, if it were me I would do just about anything for her as well. But where it goes wrong is a guy thinks he's helping out a girl who in fact really, really does not need him, and is only taking advantage of him for the fact that he thinks the way he does. Women like this (and hell, we live in a progressive society, so why not), even men like this, will use the fact that their "partner" believes they are being a White Knight (at this point an over-used term to describe such a wide array of chivalrous behavior that people are confused with it), and warp it to their advantage.

To conclude my point, I'll say this: EVERYONE has times when they are hurt so badly they stop functioning as a normal human being. In those times, it's only natural that a devoted partner will do everything in his or her power to help them recover. But the difference between the "strong, self-reliant woman" and the scumbags Crow is warning against is that the first knows when to stop relying on her partner when she feels better, and appreciates his/her efforts, whereas the second will take his/her partner's unconditional support for granted, and continue to use them.

[Frozen_Feet]

A comment that's been pressing my heart for a while now:

Asking "would this person do any of this for me?" is all fine and dandy. But if you're kind enough person, the answer suddenly becomes "no" in 99% of cases. Those 99% are going to include a lot of close people, from friends and family as well.

That isn't necessarily a good reason to become less kind. If you want to be, and stay, a good person, you should act how you ought to, not how others are acting.

Not going to claim it's easy, though. There's a reason they say "goodness is its own reward". It's because there quite often is no reward. On the contrary, as unfair or counter-intuitive it may sound, being kinder or more moral than those around you can make you an outcast. If you don't have the guts for it, feel free to opt out. But then you have to admit to yourself that you might not be as "kind" or "nice" as you thought to be.

Finally, I'm going to quote Nietzsche, of all people: "Of all the evil I deem you capable. Therefore I want the good from you. Verily I have often laughed at weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." "Kindness" or "nicety" without any form of strenght to back them up are just passivity. Color me a jerk if you want to, but there's one act that made Mad Hatter a white knight in that story, and it was not comforting a friend in privacy. It was when he finally stood up to the guy who was harassing her.

Remember, people. Knights were warriors. They were trained to kill people. Knights were held to a higher moral standard so that other people could feel safe around them despite that. Because strenght, when not tempered by kindness, just makes you a bully.

Due to the above, I'd like to see two things: first, like I said before, for people to stop calling people without strenght "Knights". Being a knight implies a level of strenght, morally and physically - if such strenght is absent, a person should not be called a "white knight". Not even mockingly. Seriously, people.

And second, perhaps the thing Crow was after in the first place: for weak people to stop trying to be knights when it's apparent they can't pull it off. Or at least, admit their weakness so they can pursue a form of strenght. Which might be just saying "no" to a friend who is being a needy bitch.

But there's also something I don't want to see: honestly strong and kind people becoming, or being told to become, less kind just because the phrase "nice guy" has earned a negative connotation. Society never becomes any better if no-one ever does any extra.

[Mono Vertigo]

Agreed. I'll allow myself to share some personal guidelines that should be more explicit than "don't be a White Knight":
- If you love someone (as a friend, a lover, a relative, etc), don't help them with the unspoken expectation you'll get anything more than basic gratefulness and thank yous. If you help them but silently expect money, favors, sex, or anything like that in return, either stop helping, or stop pretending you like the person genuinely.
- If you are the one being helped, always remember to thank your helper, even if the service is tiny, and give them credit. You are however not obligated to give anything back if it hasn't previously been discussed and agreed on clearly.
- Learn to recognize when you can't help a loved one. Frequently, if the problem requires professional help, then you can't directly help. If the person actively refuses to be helped, you can't directly help. If the solution requires the person changes their behaviour in tiny ways but refuse to make that effort? You can't help either. No, you won't be able to help everyone, and it sucks for everybody, but it sucks slightly less to know when to walk away, than trying and losing your mental health in the process.
- Communication is the key. If something bothers you with someone, tell them. Explain how you feel, and try to know how they feel. Communication is an extremely underrated way of solving your social problems. Remember, nobody can read your mind. Being vague or misunderstood isn't, in real life, cute or awesome.
- Being weak or helpless isn't cute or fun either. If you think it's a good idea to pretend you're helpless in order to get benefits from loved ones, think again.
- On the other hand, try to recognize when you do need help and truly can't deal with something alone. Don't pretend you're 100% perfect and unbroken. Guess what, nobody is. You're just going to suffer further if you do that.
- (Yes, there is a balance between being helpless and being so perfect you don't have any problem or can solve them all painlessly and on your own.)
- All the advice above apply to anyone of either gender. No, really.

[dehro]

there's a difference between making dinner for someone every day because that's the agreement or it works out better that way, and having to run after someone who forgot his/her lunchbox for the umpteenth time and who is making no effort not to forget it yet again (and doesn't feel bad about it either), because he or she knows someone is going to provide for it and has come to take it for granted, due even.

edit: rant spoilered for brevity. feel free to skip it altogether.
I'm 34.. (well.. almost 35 now)
I come at this from the perspective of someone who has been single most of his life, tends to be rather cynical and approach things with a rational mind when sometimes they should be left "to the heart" or somesuch.
My longest meaningful relationship didn't reach the year mark, I have played around, with alternating success, to fill that void, and circumstances, lazyness, a dose of bad luck and a number of other flaws in me or the occasional other person have conspired into making me less than confident that I'll ever find a girl for anything longer than a tumble in the hay (which btw doesn't happen nearly as often as I'd like..has the entire world got a dose of hayfever?)...
I also find it difficult to make friends, despite having a profession that is based on personal relationships, establishing a connection with those you talk to and having gained what I believe to be a considerable dose of insight on human nature, behaviour and their interactions/intentions.
one could say that I'm probably overstating my competence and success in "getting people", or I would have more friends and a girlfriend/wife. I'm not a good judge of myself, but I do know that a certain degree of knowing and understanding people is one of my very few virtues/skillsets so I'm not quite ready to admit that I might suck at that too.

I am also of the opinion that any relationship, professional, friendship, love, is if not regulated then at least severely conditioned by how well the two parts in the relationship respond to the other's needs..be those needs for friendship, love, sex, companionship or an extra discount on that shipment I'm waiting to sell.

so, yeah.. I'm jaded. I find it hard to accept a compliment on face value (not that I get much of those anyway), and equally hard to dish out compliments unless they're heartfelt and I don't have the impression I am indeed lying to ingratiate the other person.

I consider myself to be a nice guy (in the non creepy sense of the much abused term). I would help out someone in need if I were in the position to do so, whatever their sex or my relation to them.
I would go an extra mile for someone I had a special interest in.
I don't think that makes a white knight of me, for one thing because I think it's only fair to give more if you are looking for more (horrible way to put it, I know, I am not saying that giving more equates to being entitled to "get" more). I tend to be generous when I can afford to be, with time, money or attention and care. more often than not I have been so despite knowing that it was probably wasted effort.
over the decades, my patience and willingness to "give more" and to wait for some time to see if this was appreciated or recognized has dwindled, as I got tired to death with realizing that if I don't initiate contact, pretty much nobody is going to reciprocate...to the point where my best friend who lives some 30 km away has moved his lazy ass in my direction a grand total of 5 times since I know him (some 18 years).
I am not ready anymore to sit by the phone and wait for a call back or to wait for a long time to see if my gesture, whatever it was, has been appreciated and valued. As soon as I get the impression that words fell on deaf ears, that a gesture was taken for granted or that I am "being the sucker" or simply that there is no discernible interest and maybe some embarassment on the other side, I move on. this doesn't help with my jadedness
it doesn't help to build anything worth mentioning, but it does save me from a dose of butthurt that would only compound not having built anything.
The truth probably is that I have turned into a grumpy old man before I should have, and that I do feel that time is running too fast. If 10 years ago you had asked me where I would have wanted to be at 35, I would have pictured me with a wife and possibly a kid on the way if not already there.
World economics, a string of bad decisions, bad luck and a few more flaws on my part have made me fall behind on the master plan, which to be fair has mostly been daydreaming.

so now I find myself almost turning 35, which once used to be considered the halfway mark in one's life, a somewhat white-ish knight without a shield, on a manky horse with a bad attitude.
not even sure all of the above makes sense to anyone but me, or how relevant it is to the thread..but there you go, I guess I had to put it in writing and this was a convenient place to do so.
I shall go back to sulking and chasing customers.

[JustSomeGuy]

having a profession that is based on personal relationships, establishing a connection with those you talk to and having gained what I believe to be a considerable dose of insight on human nature, behaviour and their interactions/intentions... one could say that I'm probably overstating my competence and success in "getting people"
I don't know, it doesn't sound that way to me



I shall go back to sulking and chasing customers.
Oh, ok. I get it, nevermind!


Finally, a paraphrased quote from Clint Eastwood: Do everything you can for other people, but don't expect them to do the same for you.

[dehro]

agreed, it's what I try to live by most of the times.
that said, it would however be nice to occasionally bump into someone who reciprocates, one way or the other, or at least shows appreciation and care.
P.S. I don't usually sulk at clients.. that was an unfortunate phrasing on my part, lol

[Krazzman]

@dehro:

Your rant about your "lazy" friend reminded me on my so called "friends" from about 2 years ago.

To just say it: it went that far that saying a facebook group to organize our meetings was called a dumb idea. Or we always ringed through... at that time I personally had a near 100% availability via mobile phone (be it SMS, call [except for when I was in class] or even ICQ/Ventrilo/TS [if I was at home]).

TO show how bad this actually got... when we finally were fed up with this behaviour we tried to get my books from one guy. I still don't have them. After nearly 2 years. As well as my Magic Decks. The best part was we had a day where we would meet for the books... then he called in being sick and he would write us when to meet again for them. Didn't happen.

We drive 20 to 30 minutes every time we play at our new groups place. As we are all rather scattered. Maybe a bit more depending from where we go to whom and so on. We picked up the guy who still has my books and... well this doubled our way to and our way from playing. With no real gratitude or such...

But as the topic said stop being nice to people that can't or won't return favors to you willingly. If they want to but can't due to something. Ok. But those other cases? Ignore them be they love interest or "friends".

Everyone should reflect about his friendships and relationships. Yes all of them. What amount do you think is ok to tolerate in another person and why? Are you willing to lend money to friends? If yes how much? I've only been in one real relationship so far. And it went serious enough for me to ask her to marry me. It's not about if a relationship with a "broken princess" (be it man or woman) can work but it's about finding your ideal partner. Be it the guy or gal fighting alongside you or the person completing/supporting you. In my experience the partner you have to find is the one with whom you can evolve and grow. But in a friendship this is far more loosely. As you don't have to see them as much. As someone else in this thread nicely put it: if it looks like unhealthy addiction it has to go.

The problem here is that you often have to get this information from an outside source. And sometimes you can't trust the guys you call friends.

Edit:
Adding to clarify my point:
Try to be nice without hurting yourself see if your favors are being appreciated or just taken for granted.

[dehro]

I feel I may have misrepresented my friend.
he lives in the city, I do not, and usually when we do stuff this happens in the city, so it's fairly natural that I should be the one going in his/their direction.
that said, he does check in with me pretty much as often as I do with him (not often at all) we have been best friends for a long time and this remains true even when we don't hear from one another. on the important occasions we are there for one another.
in the past, I have spent several years hanging on to his social circle and considering those people my friends because we did stuff together, before I realized that there was no mutuality in our relationship. so I stopped reaching out to them. This has not been the case for several years now, and he knows that my days of bringing people back and forth for free, just to hang out, are well and truly over.
I am willing to give my mate a lot more leeway on account of him being pretty much family as far as we're both concerned, and because I know he'd be there for me if I needed him to be.
that said, he's not geeky in the least, so I have searched for a gaming group somewhere else. now I think I can call those people friends too, if rather new ones. we do stuff together beyond gaming and there seems to be mutual interest. in other words, I'm not a complete hermit or recluse, lol
none of this does much for my relationship status, but it's something.

[Tengu_temp]

<story>

I don't think what you did counts as White Knighting. You stood up to defend someone who genuinely needed help. That's just being a good person.
However, I believe you made a mistake by not letting any teachers/authorities know. When you're a young kid there is the Sandbox Code that goes against snitching, but we're talking about 17-year olds here, who are almost adults, ad that guy broke your nose. He deserved to get in trouble for that.


And this is why I'll never stop being a White Knight.

No. Don't wear this title as a badge of honor, its connotations are purely negative. Helping people who need help, defending people who can't defend themselves, is not the same as being a White Knight.


Believe me, the 'lone wolf ' thing doesn't works, at least in my experience..

Well, you also need an aura of mystery and/or badass to pull it off.

[Spanish_Paladin]

I don't think what you did counts as White Knighting. You stood up to defend someone who genuinely needed help. That's just being a good person.
However, I believe you made a mistake by not letting any teachers/authorities know. When you're a young kid there is the Sandbox Code that goes against snitching, but we're talking about 17-year olds here, who are almost adults, ad that guy broke your nose. He deserved to get in trouble for that.



No. Don't wear this title as a badge of honor, its connotations are purely negative. Helping people who need help, defending people who can't defend themselves, is not the same as being a White Knight.



Well, you also need an aura of mystery and/or badass to pull it off.

Then i can try the mistery thing, i am not a credible badass XD

[Renegade Paladin]

Sorry. Paladin. It's part of the job description. :smalltongue:

In seriousness, my lady is a lady of war (in the literal sense as well; in fact we're off to Pennsic in a couple of weeks where we'll armor up and go bag us some Eastern Tygers :smallamused:), and there's very little I wouldn't do for her. But I've always gone out of my way to help those in need, I don't see that as negative, and I have no plans to stop. I have no expectations of reward, sexual or otherwise (and it would be a terrible idea anyway, since she's practiced the art of the sword for longer than I have and is considerably better at it :smallwink:), and while I understand that's what the OP is driving at, just telling people in blanket fashion to stop being Good seems counterproductive, to say the least.

[Spanish_Paladin]

Yeah, i always fail in badassness 101 in the paladin academy :smalltongue:

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Who the hell said anything about that? Did you even read the OP?
I was making the facetious point (hence following it with "Seriously, though") that the opening post is entirely focused on men not being subservient in relationships. I wasn't meaning to seriously imply that you thought ladies belong in the kitchen, and my apologies if it came across as such; all I'm saying is that it's very problematic to frame the discussion around such hard-and-fast gender lines. However well-intended, any such framing comes with a whole host of unfortunate implications.


No. Don't wear this title as a badge of honor, its connotations are purely negative.

That's really just not true. It really only has negative connotations as a colloquial internet term based around using its positive meaning sarcastically and/or mockingly.

[noparlpf]

I dropped out of Paladin school once. They made fun of me because I called a dire badger as a mount instead of a horse. Horses are lame.

[Coidzor]

while I understand that's what the OP is driving at, just telling people in blanket fashion to stop being Good seems counterproductive, to say the least.

Indeed, you've got to convince them, since you know that Evil will always triumph because Good is Dumb.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, i always fail in badassness 101 in the paladin academy :smalltongue:
I was referring to white knight (and my own handle), but I realize how that looks now. :smallamused: Yes. Work on it. :smallcool:

[Spanish_Paladin]

I'll try :smallsmile:

[Devils_Advocate]

It's only in typing up this response and repeatedly going over the OP that I've finally grasped the apparent target audience: Men who specifically want to feel appreciated by women, more than they're motivated by concern for their well-being. Is that accurate, Crow?


I hope you meant for that to be in blue, because that's not at all what was in the content of Crow's posts in this thread. If that's what you're reading, it's because you put it there.
With all due respect, what post did you read?


you guys need to stop attaching yourselves to these women who are constantly in need of being rescued. ... You shouldn't be having to fulfill her basic needs. ... In the effort to fulfill this need of yours, you are attracting these broken princesses that you can come to the rescue for. Stop! Why? Because no matter how nice of a guy you are, there will one day be a crisis you cannot solve, or a need you cannot meet, and you will be gone, my friend. ... You have everything it takes to win the affection of a strong, self-reliant woman, which is the key. ... Stop being the white knight off to rescue the princess. Instead, be the white knight looking for a lady of war to fight by his side.
It's a pretty broad generalization to say that a woman who relies on a man will only be interested in him so long as he is capable of helping her in the ways she needs. Likewise to say that such relationships are not worthwhile. And the notion that it's better to help a woman who doesn't need help strikes me as counterintuitive to say the least.

I agree that another person being dependent on you isn't a good thing. But I think that the relevant good advice is that one best helps others by fostering self-reliance rather than repeatedly taking care of their problems for them. You know: "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."


Complete sidenote, but I'm not a fan of using blue text for sarcasm, especially if you insist other people do that too. Just make it blatantly clear that you're being sarcastic, tone of voice cannot be heard on the internet but it's honestly not that hard.
The only way to do that is to straight up say "That was sarcasm" or similar (including the use of color coding, a special punctuation mark, or so on).

While I have no noticeable trouble understanding sarcasm, I also have no trouble understanding that some people find it completely counterintuitive. It's REALLY WEIRD that sometimes people will say the opposite of what they mean and expect you to realize that they're doing that. I find it amazing that I somehow grasp that convention easily, frankly, because it certainly doesn't seem to make any sense.


And you see how threads like this make me want to punt puppies. :smallannoyed::smallmad::smallfurious:
I honestly don't understand why people say things like that. It makes no sense to me, literal or non-literal, serious or sarcastic.


Asking "would this person do any of this for me?" is all fine and dandy. But if you're kind enough person, the answer suddenly becomes "no" in 99% of cases. Those 99% are going to include a lot of close people, from friends and family as well.

That isn't necessarily a good reason to become less kind. If you want to be, and stay, a good person, you should act how you ought to, not how others are acting.
I'd be wary of trying to "be a good person" or "do what you ought to do". One of the less obvious potential off-switches for one's conscience is the concept of morality itself.


I believe it is best to approach each girl, and indeed each relationship, whether it be with a guy or a girl, romantic or platonic, sexual or celibate, differently. In fact I believe it so strongly that I am planning to write a choose your own adventure novel about it.
FUND IT.

[dehro]

I'd be wary of trying to "be a good person" or "do what you ought to do". One of the less obvious potential off-switches for one's conscience is the concept of morality itself.

not quite sure what the alternative could (or should?) be.

[Devils_Advocate]

There are many things we want for ourselves and for others. Happiness. Safety. Self-determination. And so on. So... try to achieve those things, instead of trying to "be good" or "do right". Attempt to make sentient beings better off than they otherwise would have been.

Basically I am endorsing consequentialism over virtue ethics and deontology here. Like, if the "more moral" course of action predictably leaves everyone worse off, then take the "less moral" course of action.

It's important not to act blindly. It's probably better to ask what problems people have and to offer help than to try to "fix" the "problems" you regard them as having without their input. It's probably better to want people to achieve their goals than to want to "help people".

It's not that there's no such thing as goodness. It's that there's a difference between wanting to be good and being good. So, if you do want to be good, don't pursue that objective by trying to "be good", because that's what someone who wants to be good does. Having virtue means having at least one goal other than the goal of having virtue.

(Wanting to be virtuous, as an end in itself, is not only not the same thing as actually being virtuous, but also is fundamentally self-centered. So becoming selfless is a quest one must abandon to truly fulfill.)

See what I'm saying?

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Basically, think about Michael from Arrested Development.

[Frozen_Feet]

See what I'm saying?

Yes. The only paragraph that was worth saying was this:


It's important not to act blindly. It's probably better to ask what problems people have and to offer help than to try to "fix" the "problems" you regard them as having without their input. It's probably better to want people to achieve their goals than to want to "help people".

The rest is the sort of philosophical double-talk that is useless for making decisions. In practice, "attempting to make sentient beings better off" is synonymous with "doing good", and you don't end up doing it automatically without trying.

As a general advice, when you start ruminating on nature of "true selflessness" (etc.), it's a sign you have entered the realm of philosophical navel-staring that has little relation to how or why people do what they do.

[Hazyshade]

The rest is the sort of philosophical double-talk that is useless for making decisions. In practice, "attempting to make sentient beings better off" is synonymous with "doing good", and you don't end up doing it automatically without trying.

As a general advice, when you start ruminating on nature of "true selflessness" (etc.), it's a sign you have entered the realm of philosophical navel-staring that has little relation to how or why people do what they do.

Wow. I... words. You just, I mean, you didn't stand for that philosophical double-talk at all!

Can I be your White Knight please Frozen_Feet? :smallbiggrin: