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Elrahc
2013-07-07, 11:49 PM
Hello,

I'm looking for a variant to the 3.5 two-weapon fighting. I don't know if something like the following exists already from someone, but here goes.

Feat: Two-weapon Fighting.
Requires Dexterity of 13. It has two modes:
1. Normal use: having two weapons counts as having 1 weapon with some versatility. You get some combination of modest bonuses or penalties to any or all of the attack, damage, and AC values.
2. If you have extra attacks according to your BAB, you can split the attacks between two targets. You are penalized damage-wise, and it's only available as a full-round action (as, I believe, is a requirement for using more than 1 attack, already).
(If shield proficient) Using a one-handed weapon and a shield allows you to similarly attack with the shield as a weapon (requires something like a "Shield Bash" feat to count the shield as a valid weapon?).

Feat: Improved Two-weapon Fighting.
Requires Dexterity of 14.
Allows as many targets as you have attacks. Possibly modifies bonuses/penalties. Works with Shields if you have the Shield Bash feat.

Additionally/optionally, flavor feats like Defensive Two-weapon Fighting and Aggressive Two-weapon Fighting could allow further tweaking.

Not sure about what to do with light, normal, and double weapons, yet...

Is there anything like this already figured out? I understand 4e or maybe 5e was doing something like this (don't know those systems very well).


Thanks,


- Elrahc

Vadskye
2013-07-08, 01:23 AM
My approach to two-weapon fighting uses a single attack to resolve damage with both weapons. Essentially, if you hit on the attack, the main weapon deals damage. If you hit by 5 or more, the offhand weapon also deals damage. This streamlines play and keeps the fluff of it intact. It also makes two-weapon fighting integrate more smoothly into the overall system - for example, two-weapon fighters can now attack with both weapons when making attacks of opportunity or when they can otherwise only make a single attack. This helps level the playing field between two-weapon fighting and other fighting styles. In case you are interested, the full text of my system is spoilered below:

Two-Weapon Fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can attack with both weapons at once whenever you attack. Roll a single attack roll for both weapons. Apply your attack bonuses with each of your weapons separately, taking a -5 penalty with your off-hand attack. If you hit with your main hand, you deal damage with your main weapon. If you hit with your off-hand (after taking into account the -5 penalty), you also deal damage with your off-hand weapon.

Precision-based damage, such as sneak attack damage, is only dealt once. It is possible to critical with both weapons. Use each weapon's critical threat range separately, but roll only once to confirm a critical threat, using the same attack bonus as with the original attack. Damage reduction only applies once against the damage dealt by both weapons.

Fighting in this way is difficult, and you suffer a -2 penalty to your attack roll. You can mitigate this penalty if your off-hand weapon is light. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.) The Two-Weapon Fighting feat grants a +2 circumstance bonus to attack rolls when fighting with two weapons at once.

You take no penalties for alternating attacks between two (or more) weapons, as long as you do not attack with both weapons at once.

For example, Felix the 1st-level fighter is wielding a longsword and a short sword against an evil goblin. The goblin has an AC of 15. Felix's longsword is masterwork, but his short sword is not, and he has a Strength of 15. This means his attack bonus with his longsword is +4, and his attack bonus with his short sword is +3. If he attacks with both weapons at once, he takes no penalty to his attacks (because his off-hand weapon is light), but his attack with his off-hand weapon takes a -5 penalty. So his attack bonus would be +4 (with his longsword) and -2 (with his short sword). If he rolls a 15, he will hit the goblin with his longsword, but not with his short sword.

If Felix had the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, his attack bonus would be +6 with his longsword and +0 with his short sword. Assuming he rolls a 15 again, he would hit the goblin with both weapons, dealing damage with both of them.

Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon were a light weapon.

Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a set of bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.

Amnoriath
2013-07-08, 08:41 AM
An easy fix is just to allow the player to use their available iteratives outside of the full-attack action whenever they can attack. An example would be if they would have two-weapon fighting they take the normal penalty but may make an extra attack through the normal standard action attack or wait for an attack of opportunity. This would allow for appropriate skirmishing and to activate triggers normally need for precision damage die while being able to attack more overall through the campaign. The main reason why two-handed styles deal so much damage is due to charging if one would actually strip things down to core two-weapon fighting and sneak attack would still potentially deal more damage than a PA barbarian. So, give them affect advantage outside of the full-attack and charge.

Deepbluediver
2013-07-08, 01:35 PM
The simplest thing I can do is link you my revised rules and feats for 2WF (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12788526&postcount=2).

If you want to 'brew your own fix, the biggest issues with TWF is that usually it does less damage at higher levels (not benefitting as much from PA and sufferering more from DR), it requires a larger feat investment, and it costs more in gold to enchant two weapons rather than one.

Figure out how to address all those issues and you'll be well on your way, I think.

Vadskye
2013-07-08, 01:50 PM
If you want to 'brew your own fix, the biggest issues with TWF is that usually it does less damage at higher levels (not benefitting as much from PA and sufferering more from DR), it requires a larger feat investment, and it costs more in gold to enchant two weapons rather than one.

Figure out how to address all those issues and you'll be well on your way, I think.
Agreed. Fortunately, since this is a pure comparison of fighting styles, it is relatively easy to run a fairly rigorous analysis of the differences in damage output between the two styles. I used spreadsheets and the marvelous anydice.com ('http://anydice.com/') to create my system, and as a result two-handed fighting and two-weapon fighting do extremely similar damage, despite using different mechanics. Don't make a change like this just because it "feels right"! That's how we got the original 2wf mechanic...

Elrahc
2013-07-09, 02:58 AM
My approach to two-weapon fighting uses a single attack to resolve damage with both weapons. Essentially, if you hit on the attack, the main weapon deals damage. If you hit by 5 or more, the offhand weapon also deals damage. This streamlines play and keeps the fluff of it intact. It also makes two-weapon fighting integrate more smoothly into the overall system - for example, two-weapon fighters can now attack with both weapons when making attacks of opportunity or when they can otherwise only make a single attack. This helps level the playing field between two-weapon fighting and other fighting styles. In case you are interested, the full text of my system is spoilered below:

Two-Weapon Fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can attack with both weapons at once whenever you attack. Roll a single attack roll for both weapons. Apply your attack bonuses with each of your weapons separately, taking a -5 penalty with your off-hand attack. If you hit with your main hand, you deal damage with your main weapon. If you hit with your off-hand (after taking into account the -5 penalty), you also deal damage with your off-hand weapon.

Precision-based damage, such as sneak attack damage, is only dealt once. It is possible to critical with both weapons. Use each weapon's critical threat range separately, but roll only once to confirm a critical threat, using the same attack bonus as with the original attack. Damage reduction only applies once against the damage dealt by both weapons.

Fighting in this way is difficult, and you suffer a -2 penalty to your attack roll. You can mitigate this penalty if your off-hand weapon is light. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.) The Two-Weapon Fighting feat grants a +2 circumstance bonus to attack rolls when fighting with two weapons at once.

You take no penalties for alternating attacks between two (or more) weapons, as long as you do not attack with both weapons at once.

For example, Felix the 1st-level fighter is wielding a longsword and a short sword against an evil goblin. The goblin has an AC of 15. Felix's longsword is masterwork, but his short sword is not, and he has a Strength of 15. This means his attack bonus with his longsword is +4, and his attack bonus with his short sword is +3. If he attacks with both weapons at once, he takes no penalty to his attacks (because his off-hand weapon is light), but his attack with his off-hand weapon takes a -5 penalty. So his attack bonus would be +4 (with his longsword) and -2 (with his short sword). If he rolls a 15, he will hit the goblin with his longsword, but not with his short sword.

If Felix had the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, his attack bonus would be +6 with his longsword and +0 with his short sword. Assuming he rolls a 15 again, he would hit the goblin with both weapons, dealing damage with both of them.

Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon were a light weapon.

Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a set of bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.


@Vadskye: We think a lot alike, though I don't feel satisfied (cool approach). What do you think about something like this? (Please note there are a few differences in the untrained version of TWF. Also, I'm thinking of leaving shield bashing and multiple targets out of this, as well as ranged attacks. Edit: And, I just realized I'm not doing double weapons suitably.)

Untrained two-weapon fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand (must be light), you can attack with both weapons at once whenever you attack. If using a double weapon in this manner instead of as a two-handed weapon, the same applies.

Roll a single attack roll for both weapons. Apply your attack bonuses with each of your weapons separately, taking a -5 penalty with your off-hand attack. If you hit with your main hand, you deal damage with your main weapon. If you hit with your off-hand (after taking into account the -5 penalty), you also deal damage with your off-hand weapon.

The medium weapon benefits from any strength bonus to damage. The light weapon benefits from any dexterity bonus to attack (house rule: this is normal for light weapons - no Weapon Finesse feat).

Precision-based damage, such as sneak attack damage, is only dealt once per attack roll. It is possible to critical with both weapons. Use each weapon's critical threat range separately, but roll only once to confirm a critical threat, using the same attack bonus as with the original attack. Damage reduction only applies once against the damage dealt by both weapons.

Fighting untrained in this manner is difficult, and you suffer a -2 penalty to your attack roll. Using two medium weapons results in a -6 penalty to your attack roll.

Feat: Two-weapon Fighting
Prerequisite: Dexterity 15, BAB +3
Required for: Improved Two-weapon Fighting

When fighting with a medium weapon in one hand and a light weapon in the other, you gain +2 AB and +2 AC.


Feat: Improved Two-weapon Fighting
Requirements: Two-weapon Fighting, Strength 15, BAB +6.

When fighting with a medium weapon in one hand and a medium weapon in the other, you gain +2 AB and +2 AC.



An easy fix is just to allow the player to use their available iteratives outside of the full-attack action whenever they can attack. An example would be if they would have two-weapon fighting they take the normal penalty but may make an extra attack through the normal standard action attack or wait for an attack of opportunity. This would allow for appropriate skirmishing and to activate triggers normally need for precision damage die while being able to attack more overall through the campaign. The main reason why two-handed styles deal so much damage is due to charging if one would actually strip things down to core two-weapon fighting and sneak attack would still potentially deal more damage than a PA barbarian. So, give them affect advantage outside of the full-attack and charge.
Interesting take. I'm going to mull on that one a bit more. Thanks for contributing. :)



The simplest thing I can do is link you my revised rules and feats for 2WF (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12788526&postcount=2).

If you want to 'brew your own fix, the biggest issues with TWF is that usually it does less damage at higher levels (not benefitting as much from PA and sufferering more from DR), it requires a larger feat investment, and it costs more in gold to enchant two weapons rather than one.

Figure out how to address all those issues and you'll be well on your way, I think.
Your solution has too many feats for me (though it's very thorough, I must say - kudos!).

Your points about the biggest issues are good, but for what I need it for, only the first one is actually an issue (and I think Vadskye provided a very good base for handling that).

As an FYI, in my mind these styles shouldn't be balanced in the way that they match numbers, but rather fit different class styles. If you choose to TWF, you do it because you've got something else going for you than the normal damage output; landing more touch attacks for applying effects from multiple weapon enchantments, applying multiple hits of poisons, etc. I see sneak-attack as different and like how Vadskye forces that as 1 hit.

Thanks all. I'll update the thread with my take on one-handed fighting, and Sword and Board, too.


- Elrahc

Deepbluediver
2013-07-09, 08:52 AM
Your solution has too many feats for me (though it's very thorough, I must say - kudos!).

Your points about the biggest issues are good, but for what I need it for, only the first one is actually an issue (and I think Vadskye provided a very good base for handling that).

Thanks!

There are other versions out there with fewer feats; I think Seerow made one with only 3 for each style. (I'll try to find a link if I can, later)
The reason I went with a more involved model is that I also homebrew class fixes, and most martial classes gained a certain number of Weapon-Style Feats, sort of like Fighter Bonus Feats but obviously more limited.

I felt that weapon-proficiencies where important, but that there could be more interesting choices for the feats you gain from leveling. So you could probably stack the feats together, if you wanted, but that's why I chose to do it the way I did.


As an FYI, in my mind these styles shouldn't be balanced in the way that they match numbers, but rather fit different class styles. If you choose to TWF, you do it because you've got something else going for you than the normal damage output; landing more touch attacks for applying effects from multiple weapon enchantments, applying multiple hits of poisons, etc. I see sneak-attack as different and like how Vadskye forces that as 1 hit.

Thanks all. I'll update the thread with my take on one-handed fighting, and Sword and Board, too.

TWF was one of the first things I reworked, and in some areas it shows. I also now have feat-trees for other weapon styles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267778), and they all have similar numbers, but at the higher end they tend to branch out in options from just more damage or more attacks. Feel free to skim them for inspiration.

Elrahc
2013-07-09, 11:29 AM
Thanks!

There are other versions out there with fewer feats; I think Seerow made one with only 3 for each style. (I'll try to find a link if I can, later)
The reason I went with a more involved model is that I also homebrew class fixes, and most martial classes gained a certain number of Weapon-Style Feats, sort of like Fighter Bonus Feats but obviously more limited.

I felt that weapon-proficiencies where important, but that there could be more interesting choices for the feats you gain from leveling. So you could probably stack the feats together, if you wanted, but that's why I chose to do it the way I did.



TWF was one of the first things I reworked, and in some areas it shows. I also now have feat-trees for other weapon styles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267778), and they all have similar numbers, but at the higher end they tend to branch out in options from just more damage or more attacks. Feel free to skim them for inspiration.
I gather this is the link to Seerow's work: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199946
Please let me know if you know of something more recent you were referring to. I haven't had the time to look it over yet.

Options! Fun, I'll definitely read up on it. Thank you :)


- Elrahc

Deepbluediver
2013-07-09, 11:50 AM
I gather this is the link to Seerow's work: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199946
Please let me know if you know of something more recent you were referring to. I haven't had the time to look it over yet.

Options! Fun, I'll definitely read up on it. Thank you :)

Yes, that looks like it. I was simply in a rush before and didn't have time to dig through all my bookmarks. When you get your versions of other styles posted I'll be interested in seeing which direction you take things in. I'm always on the lookout for new inspiration and ideas.

Vadskye
2013-07-09, 02:37 PM
Untrained two-weapon fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand (must be light), you can attack with both weapons at once whenever you attack. If using a double weapon in this manner instead of as a two-handed weapon, the same applies.
So this means that it is not possible at all to dual-wield with a medium weapon in the offhand? I feel like that should be doable, just more difficult. Not a big deal, though.


Roll a single attack roll for both weapons. Apply your attack bonuses with each of your weapons separately, taking a -5 penalty with your off-hand attack. If you hit with your main hand, you deal damage with your main weapon. If you hit with your off-hand (after taking into account the -5 penalty), you also deal damage with your off-hand weapon.
Sounds the same so far. Makes sense.


The medium weapon benefits from any strength bonus to damage. The light weapon benefits from any dexterity bonus to attack (house rule: this is normal for light weapons - no Weapon Finesse feat).
This is confusingly worded, since it seems to be assuming that the character always uses one medium weapon and one light weapon. (Incidentally, I also use Dex to attack automatically with light weapons.) If I use two medium weapons, do I get full strength bonus with both weapons? If I use two light weapons, do I get no strength bonus with either weapon? That isn't very clear.

Incidentally, I didn't include it in my two-weapon fighting rules, but all light weapons in my system get half Strength to damage, regardless of whether they are used off-hand. That may or may not be something you are interested in using, but that may help understand how I expect Strength to be used with dual-wielding.


Precision-based damage, such as sneak attack damage, is only dealt once per attack roll. It is possible to critical with both weapons. Use each weapon's critical threat range separately, but roll only once to confirm a critical threat, using the same attack bonus as with the original attack. Damage reduction only applies once against the damage dealt by both weapons.
Good good.


Fighting untrained in this manner is difficult, and you suffer a -2 penalty to your attack roll. Using two medium weapons results in a -6 penalty to your attack roll.
So it is possible to use two medium weapons - it is just brutally difficult. I'm not sure an extra -4 penalty is totally necessary; you're only increasing the die size of the offhand weapon by one, which is worth almost nothing in the grand scheme of things. But like I said above, it's not a big deal - this should be a pretty unusual fighting style for thematic reasons, so I'm not worried if the penalties are too large.


Feat: Two-weapon Fighting
Prerequisite: Dexterity 15, BAB +3
Required for: Improved Two-weapon Fighting

When fighting with a medium weapon in one hand and a light weapon in the other, you gain +2 AB and +2 AC.
The AC bonus needs a type; I'd recommend a shield bonus, since you are using the offhand weapon like a shield. A +2 bonus is the same as a heavy shield, though. It may not be a balance concern, but it feels odd from a fluff perspective. Though the fact that this feat can't be gained until 3rd level at the earliest means that may not be an issue. Why specifically did you want to merge two weapon fighting and two weapon defense? Just to further reduce the feat tax?

Also, is the BAB +3 requirement necessary? That means your typical rogue can't fight with two weapons properly until 6th level. Even though sneak attack is no longer applied twice, dual-wielding is still an iconic archetype for some characters (at least in my experience), and I know that delaying access to this fighting style for so long will be disappointing. People like using two weapons, and it is often a fundamental part of a character concept; why force them to wait so long?


Feat: Improved Two-weapon Fighting
Requirements: Two-weapon Fighting, Strength 15, BAB +6.

When fighting with a medium weapon in one hand and a medium weapon in the other, you gain +2 AB and +2 AC.
This feat is confusingly worded. "Improved" feats are supposed to be... well, improved versions of the original feats. This is a different fighting style than normal two-weapon fighting, so it would be better named something like "Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting". It is also virtually useless, since even with the feat, the character takes a -4 penalty with the main hand and a -9 (!) on the offhand. As written, this is just a trap for newbies that will gimp their characters.


As an FYI, in my mind these styles shouldn't be balanced in the way that they match numbers, but rather fit different class styles. If you choose to TWF, you do it because you've got something else going for you than the normal damage output; landing more touch attacks for applying effects from multiple weapon enchantments, applying multiple hits of poisons, etc.
Interesting. I can see that argument. I would say that, in order to fulfill that archetype, two-weapon fighting should increase the chance to hit while still decreasing overall damage. That's what two-weapon fighting is all about, after all - making it more likely that you will hit by attacking with multiple weapons. That's why my system gives an attack bonus to two-weapon fighters.

Elrahc
2013-07-16, 02:19 PM
Due to real life I may have to put this topic to rest for the time being. Thanks for reading and commenting.

Vadskye's last paragraph shows we're after the same thing, but I'm unclear on how I want to do it differently than he does and I just can't focus on it at this time (and I mean sitting down to crunch math and in general being creative) - I'll try to give replies to anyone posting here, still. *decreasing CPU*

As a "final note", I think one has to ask if dual wielding should write rules/feats that 1) allow for 2 weapons working as one (as I've been trying to describe here), 2) allow for full medium-sized weapons in either hand that do individual attacks and damage (and whether or not to allow monkeygripping 2-handed weapons in this style), or 3) allow both approaches.

In the end, I think the right thing to do is check in with your view of the rules/system and find out where the border is for allowing supernatural heroes and villains able to pull stuff off that you can't in real life (magic aside) vs. keeping things rooted in reality (magic aside - talking what playable races is melee/physically capable of here). And, what flows right - is it fun?!

Having mulled about things, I think I'd personally prefer all feats to not go deeper than ~4 for specialization into anything (spell schools, spell penetration, ranged combat, etc.), and to allow for stuff that players can imagine and have fun with. I could see dual-wielding as two individual weapons and as 1 individual weapon, and when I come back to how I want to do this, I'll have that first in mind.


- Elrahc

Vadskye
2013-07-16, 02:25 PM
Due to real life I may have to put this topic to rest for the time being. Thanks for reading and commenting.
I wondered where you disappeared to. Good luck with that real life thing. It can be tricky.


Having mulled about things, I think I'd personally prefer all feats to not go deeper than ~4 for specialization into anything (spell schools, spell penetration, ranged combat, etc.), and to allow for stuff that players can imagine and have fun with. I could see dual-wielding as two individual weapons and as 1 individual weapon, and when I come back to how I want to do this, I'll have that first in mind.

- Elrahc
Makes sense to me.