Regarding Elan's Character

[Holy_Knight]

Elan does have a mean streak. It showed when Roy was poisoned by a trap and inable to move, and it also showed when they all left Durkon behind - I think it was Elan who tried to make Roy feel guilty for that. Wouldn't a truly good person have thought more about Durkon and his wellbeing than of opportunities to taunt Roy?
Little things, but still.

I know that Elan is to be considered pure good by word of god, but I happen to disagree. Boys like him made my life hell in primary school, so I don't think much of their innocence in stupidity and carelessness.
I found this quote by Themrys interesting in the main thread, which has now been locked. Since this doesn't appear to have anything to do with the reasons for locking, I think it's okay to bring it up, but mods please let me know if that's not kosher for some reason.

So, assuming that is okay, what do people think? For my part, while he isn't perfect, Elan has always seemed to me as basically pure-hearted, probably more so than anyone else in the comic. He always wants to think the best of people, is quick to forgive, and seems to have a default "let's try to all be friends with everybody we meet" kind of attitude. As a side note, in the strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html) referenced above, it always seemed to me that there was a difference in Belkar's approach versus Elan's. Certainly Belkar has the "mean smiling" expression and presumably enjoys the fact that Roy is helpless, whereas Elan seems to me more like he's just teasing Roy a little. Anyway, that's my basic take on it.

Also Themrys, I admit to wondering about your grade-school comment. Since Elan doesn't strike me as malicious in any way, I'm curious how the boys you're referring to were hard on you and how they remind you of him. Sounds like an interesting story at least, if you feel like sharing. If not, no worries. :smallsmile:

[rodneyAnonymous]

I think "mean streak" is way too harsh. That example is of pretty harmless teasing.

Elan seems as close to "pure good" as mortals get.

[CRtwenty]

Those are more examples of Elan's Chaotic nature, rather then anything Non-Good. Elan has demonstrated that he's willing to sacrifice his safety and wellbeing for the safety and happiness of others time and time again. He's clearly Good with a capital G.

His teasing is also not meant to hurt. He drew on Roy because it was funny and because it was a harmless way to get back at Roy for all his snarkiness. The second example here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0075.html) is more him just going along with Belkar and Haley (who are also Chaotic) for the sake of a punchline.

[Kish]

I think the "drawing on Roy while he was paralyzed" thing was highly obnoxious. And I could easily see it as bullying; the perpetrator thinks things like that are funny because, hey, they're not hurting him, but that doesn't mean they don't make the victim miserable.

However, as I said in the now-locked main thread, I don't really think judgments based on "in the Dungeon of Dorukan" which aren't consonant with the rest of the comic have anything to say to who the characters are circa #897, whether they're "Roy butchers sleeping goblins without hesitation" or, "Elan bullies helpless Roy."

[CRtwenty]

Oh sure drawing on Roy is jerky, but the question in the original quote seems to be that this makes Elan less Good. Which is certainly not the case.

Besides, it's not like Roy was above schoolyard behavior (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html) himself in that arc. :smallwink:

[Adeptus]

/disclaimer I'm not trying to play forum police as I'm not a mod. I'm just trying to prevent more infractions being handed out.

The Giant locked the main thread, and said there is to be no spillover to other threads of the toxic stuff in there.

Going back to the morality of the actions of the characters threatens to bring all that up again. I would just stop now.

[ChristianSt]

I would more think that it isn't possible (as a mortal being) to achieve 100% pure alignment.

Haley I would put maybe somewhere around 70% Good (with 50% being pure Neutral).
Roy I would set at around 85%, and Elan at probably at 99%. [At least that where I would put them - I don't really want to open a discussion on that].

Which I think is as a mortal more then any Deva judging normally can except. But it is nevertheless not perfect. (And that situation in the Dungeon of Dorukan would be an example that he isn't perfect.)

[Zerter]

I would say that what puts Elan out of being pure Good is his refusal to do the really hard stuff, despite the consequences to his feelings and that of others. Not killing the purely (chaotic?) evil Nale for example is an act of weakness.

[Kish]

Well, Elan being not-pure-good because he didn't kill Nale may not be the same "toxic conversation" as Rich officially warned us all not to spill into other threads, but it's more than enough for me to run away from this thread screaming.

[veti]

I think the "drawing on Roy while he was paralyzed" thing was highly obnoxious. And I could easily see it as bullying; the perpetrator thinks things like that are funny because, hey, they're not hurting him, but that doesn't mean they don't make the victim miserable.

"Bullying" is what a stronger person does to a weaker one. If the victim is well able to retaliate, then whatever it is, it's not bullying. Roy is only temporarily weakened in that comic, and they all know that he'll be back to full strength and able to kick the tar out of Elan (if he so chooses) in a few hours. So I don't think it qualifies as bullying.

Roy is also emotionally quite mature, which means I would expect him to be able to cope with this level of abuse. I'm pretty sure Elan wouldn't do the same thing to, say, Thog, even if he were confident of surviving the retaliation.

[SaintRidley]

I would say that what puts Elan out of being pure Good is his refusal to do the really hard stuff, despite the consequences to his feelings and that of others. Not killing the purely (chaotic?) evil Nale for example is an act of weakness.

Weakness? Or mercy? Good types are all about the mercy.

[King of Nowhere]

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

That's hanlon's razor for you. And given Elan's int and wis score, there's PLENTY (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0557.html) that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0119.html) can be explained by stupidity.

So, for the coloring, Elan probably did not think it would bug roy too much, as he (elan) would have laughed at receiving such a treatment, and as for casting blame, well, everyone cast blame on elan on a regular base, and he rarely is offended.

[Holy_Knight]

/disclaimer I'm not trying to play forum police as I'm not a mod. I'm just trying to prevent more infractions being handed out.

The Giant locked the main thread, and said there is to be no spillover to other threads of the toxic stuff in there.

Going back to the morality of the actions of the characters threatens to bring all that up again. I would just stop now.
I saw what the Giant posted, and actually read it twice before making this thread, which is why I started by saying:


I found this quote by Themrys interesting in the main thread, which has now been locked. Since this doesn't appear to have anything to do with the reasons for locking, I think it's okay to bring it up, but mods please let me know if that's not kosher for some reason.

So, assuming that is okay, what do people think?

It seems to me that this topic is unrelated to the toxicity he was talking about, so I didn't think it was disrespecting the Giant's message to start this thread. Themrys expressed a view I haven't seen from anyone else before, so I just thought it was an interesting thing to discuss. However, I will specifically message a mod about it to make sure that it is okay. Either way, your concern is appreciated. :smallsmile:

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: By quoting from the locked thread and continuing part of the discussion here, this is restarting a locked thread.

Also, the quoted part, particularly trying to apply real world morality to Elan and comparing him to the bullies of one's youth, this thread begins in the same "is X morally justified" realm The Giant tried to warn you (plural) off of in the thread lock.

Thread locked.