Half-fiend and native subtype? Do they have to go hand in hand?

[Jon_Dahl]

The question is: Can an offspring of a fiend and human be an outsider who is NOT of native subtype?

I would like to create an adventure where half-fiends are living underground without any way to sustain themselves (no food available), but this can be only done if they are not native outsiders.

Rings of sustenance and other tricks have already been used in other adventures. I just want these NPCs to go without food without any magical gimmicks.

[AuraTwilight]

It's their essential humanness that makes them native to the Material Plane, so...

[PersonMan]

"Normally" Native Outsiders.

These ones aren't, for whatever reason. Maybe they're 3/4 Fiends - Half Fiends bred with Fiends who only have 1/4 mortal blood, or Planetouched mixed with Fiends.

[hamishspence]

Fiendish humans are native to one of the Lower Planes- being humans that settled on a Lower Plane and thus had it become their "home plane" after a few generations.

If a fiend were to hybridize with one of those- I could see their half-fiend offspring being native to that plane, rather than the Material Plane.

[TuggyNE]

Fiendish humans are native to one of the Lower Planes- being humans that settled on a Lower Plane and thus had it become their "home plane" after a few generations.

If a fiend were to hybridize with one of those- I could see their half-fiend offspring being native to that plane, rather than the Material Plane.

That's irrelevant, though; it would make these creatures [extraplanar], but would not remove the [native] subtype.

[mattie_p]

That's irrelevant, though; it would make these creatures [extraplanar], but would not remove the [native] subtype.

I'm not so sure about that.


native subtype
A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype's name).

Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

Source: MM, MM3


extraplanar subtype
A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. This book assumes that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. These home planes are taken from the Great Wheel cosmology of the D&D game (see Chapter 5 of the Dungeon Master's Guide). If your campaign uses a different cosmology, you will need to assign different home planes to extraplanar creatures.

Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane; the transitive planes in the D&D cosmology are the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.

Source: MM, MM3

[Steward]

If it's your campaign, can't you just remove the Native subtype? It's not like it breaks the game if you take it off, right?

[Chronos]

Make them half-fiend elans instead of half-fiend humans.

[Urpriest]

Do Cambions have the native subtype? I've forgotten where they got statted as distinct from half-fiends.

[hamishspence]

They're statted in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits- and have the Outsider type and the Extraplanar subtype (and the Chaotic subtype and Evil subtype).

[TuggyNE]

I'm not so sure about that.

Hmm. Given that they still have (I think) mortal ancestors, and presumably a strong connection to the Material Plane, I'd still say they'd keep [native]. This is especially true if they're, y'know, on the Material Plane for the characters to fight. They might, however, lack [extraplanar] on both the Material Plane and whatever lower plane they lived on.

[mattie_p]

Hmm. Given that they still have (I think) mortal ancestors, and presumably a strong connection to the Material Plane, I'd still say they'd keep [native]. This is especially true if they're, y'know, on the Material Plane for the characters to fight. They might, however, lack [extraplanar] on both the Material Plane and whatever lower plane they lived on.

I don't know for sure, but I believe that outsiders have the native subtype on their home plane, and the extraplanar subtype on other planes (aside from transitive planes). I'd love to cite rules, but all my books are packed away temporarily.

[Karnith]

I don't know for sure, but I believe that outsiders have the native subtype on their home plane, and the extraplanar subtype on other planes (aside from transitive planes). I'd love to cite rules, but all my books are packed away temporarily.
Strangely, no. The Native subtype merely describes Outsiders native to the Material Plane, and it is entirely possible to have a creature with the Outisder (Native, Extraplanar) type and subtypes. Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#nativeSubtype):

A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
Durr hurr, me read thread real good.

[mattie_p]

Strangely, no. The Native subtype merely describes Outsiders native to the Material Plane, and it is entirely possible to have a creature with the Outisder (Native, Extraplanar) type and subtypes. Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#nativeSubtype):

Well, I cited that above. See post 6. Also, the extraplanar subtype, which provides a slight bit more of explanation:


This book assumes that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane).

That is from the glossary, which I can access right now.

[Karnith]

Well, I cited that above. See post 6. Also, the extraplanar subtype, which provides a slight bit more of explanation:



That is from the glossary, which I can access right now.
Sorry, I missed that (haste makes waste and all that). But the point still stands. Native outsiders are specifically outsiders native to the Material Plane or that have mortal ties, and follow some different rules than non-native outsiders. For example, demons don't start needing to eat and sleep just because they're in the Abyss, and you don't suddenly get the ability to raise angels in Celestia. Similarly, there is no indication that tieflings killed in Mechanus can't be raised, or that a rakhshasa can save on food costs by hanging out in Pandemonium.

Or, at least, I've never read anything that indicates such, and native outsiders are specifically called out as being different from "true outsiders."

[mattie_p]

Sorry, I missed that (haste makes waste and all that). But the point still stands. Native outsiders are specifically outsiders native to the Material Plane, and follow some different rules than non-native outsiders. For example, demons don't start needing to eat and sleep just because they're in the Abyss, and you don't suddenly get the ability to raise angels in Celestia.

Or, at least, I've never read anything that indicates such, and native outsiders are specifically called out as being different from "true outsiders."

I'm not doubting you, but the glossary entry(ies) / SRD entries specifically state that they assume the PMP for all encounters. Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, Fiendish Codices, etc, might have additional rules. Does anyone have those available for citation/clarification?

[Karnith]

I'm not doubting you, but the glossary entry(ies) / SRD entries specifically state that they assume the PMP for all encounters. Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, Fiendish Codices, etc, might have additional rules. Does anyone have those available for citation/clarification?
Spoiler'd for length:The Manual of the Planes seems to think that native outsiders don't exist in its discussion of the Material Plane (did 3.0 not have them?), so I'm not sure that it'd be particularly helpful in this situation.

The Planar Handbook has the following to say about Aasimar:

Outsider: Aasimar are outsiders native to the Material Plane, and thus have the outsider (native) type. They gain the extraplanar subtype when not on the Material Plane. They are not subject to spells or effects that affect only humanoids, such as charm person and dominate person.
There is no mention of losing the native subtype when off-plane, though it does specifically mention that they gain the extraplanar subtype. Similarly, the PH has the following to say about Bariaurs:

Outsider: Bariaurs are native to the Heroic Domains of Ysgard, and thus have the outsider type. They gain the extraplanar subtype when not on Ysgard.They are not subject to spells or effects that affect only humanoids, such as charm person and dominate person.
Again, no mention of gaining or losing the native subtype, but only the extraplanar subtype. There is a native outsider sample NPC presented in the chapter on Planar Sites, but it doesn't really clarify anything; she is a tiefling in Sigil, with the type Outsider (Native).

Fiendish Codex, I know, specifies that demons don't need to eat or sleep at all, which is evidence against them being outsiders with the native subtype while on the Abyss.

Basic Functions
[...]
Eating: Demons do not need to eat. That said, a demon can consume endless quantities of food (of any sort), and they often take particular joy in devouring sacrifices, especially gory or disgusting ones. Demons have even been known to consume tons of food in a single sitting, with no effect or consequence, leaving much debate about where the food actually goes. The most common theory is that their link to the Abyss somehow transports food back to their home plane, but no one has yet brought forward any proof of this.
[...]
Sleeping: Demons do not require sleep to function normally. However, powerful individuals occasionally do force them into sleeplike states, and demons can even be rendered unconscious, though not easily. A demon can choose to fall asleep (which it would normally do only for deceitful purposes), but it gains no benefit from doing so.
Additionally, FC1 also specifies that demons killed within the Abyss have their bodies and souls destroyed, which would not occur if they were outsiders with the native subtype while in the Abyss.

Death
[...]
Within the Abyss: If a demon is killed while within the Abyss, it is permanently destroyed - both its body and its essence. For this reason, many demons are relatively more cautious on their home turf than when wreaking havoc on another plane. While a demotion through reincarnation is not ideal, most demons view it as a much better option than complete annihilation.Unfortunately, I found no mentions of gaining or losing either the extraplanar or native subtypes, so I do not believe that FC1 will provide a definitive ruling on the issue.

Fiendish Codex II has similar things to say about devils. First, they do not need to eat, something that native outsiders must do.
Food and Air
Devils derive their sustenance from the ambient energy of tormented souls, which suffuses all of Baator. Thus, they do not need to eat or drink to survive. However, certain devil forms remain capable of enjoying the tastes of fine food or drink as a sensual pleasure, entirely detached from nutrition. The same holds true for devils prone to devouring their organic or demonic foes, although this act is more a celebration of power than an exercise in fine dining.
Devils breathe and require oxygen to survive, though they need far less of it than organic creatures do.It does not mention whether they must sleep, and it's rather vague about what happens to devils when they die, though were they natives it ought to mention that they can be raised, as this is not a typical trait of outsiders.
Mortality
[...]A devil slain in the Nine Hells stays dead. A devil slain outside of Baator devolves into a puddle of foamy, stinking ooze over a period of 3 to 9 minutes.[...]It has little else to say concerning traits of devils, and I found nothing concerning the native subtype.
Those are all the references that I could find in the books mentioned. Looking through them, I did not find a single reference to gaining and losing the native subtype, even when it would be important to note this and when gaining and losing the extraplanar subtype was explicitly mentioned (such as in the Planar Handbook, where native and extraplanar outsiders are listed as playable races). The Fiendish Codices made no mention of gaining or losing the native subtype, and moreover describes demons and devils in a manner inconsistent with being native outsiders. I found no evidence supporting outsiders gaining or losing the native subtype based on their location, but If you have other sources to suggest I can peruse them, my book ownership permitting.

So far as I can tell, the extraplanar subtype functions independently of the native subtype.

[Jon_Dahl]

Do Cambions have the native subtype? I've forgotten where they got statted as distinct from half-fiends.

Thank you, that was a good idea. I read them but I didn't like them that much. I found them poorly designed.

It seems that whether half-fiends gains or doesn't gain native subtype is a mystery. Of course I could just rule them not to be natives, but I'd like to handle this by the book. I just don't how to manage this. So far PersonMan's idea of 3/4 fiends is the best choice.

I don't have elans in my campaign.

[mattie_p]

... very thorough research/

So far as I can tell, the extraplanar subtype functions independently of the native subtype.

Well, I've been wrong before and will be wrong again. Thanks for digging through the books.