Scout base class overhaul [3.5 (ish)]

[Aotrs Commander]

I am in the process of going through the last couple of base classes I haven't updated/improved for my own house rules (in this case largely but not entirely swiping the PF bard), and I thought I ought to deal with probably the last proud nail, the Scout (at time of writing, pretty much the only noncaster aside from the Barbarian (who since Lion totem, really doesn't need anymore help!) that has not had some sort of upgrade or power-boost.

The scout has always struck me as a bit tricky to do well with, since relying on a standard action for attacks seems more crippling than not, giving the last of iteratives. (Heck, my recent Warlock up date - allowing non-blast-shaped Eldritch Blasts a full attack action - means you're likely to be out-paced in damage...!)

Generally, most of the optimisation methods for the scout seem to be "use ranger with Swift Hunter" which is a pretty poor look-out (ahaha, because he's a scout, you see) for a base class.

So, what does the playground think could be done to improve the Scout to a reasonable level of capability?

If anyone knows of an existant "fix" (homebrew, PF or otherwise) that would be helpful (i.e. something like Seerow's Rebalanced Paladin, for example, which I now use or the Sublime Marshal).

Otherwise, what else could be done?

For one, I'm not seeing a reason why skirmish couldn't be made to function mounted (at the cost of a feat maybe?), though that doesn't really help with the problem.

More feats?

Better class abilities (i.e., ones that actually do something; most of the scout's are more or less passive)?

Something to push the damage up if you're only going to be getting the one (or if you go intensively two-weapon, maybe dual-strike or something?)

Suggestions welcome.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Free Travel Devotion (multiple times) so you can move on a swift and full attack, giving you skirmish damage to more than a single attack?

[BowStreetRunner]

The list of bonus feats could be updated to include a few of the obvious feats most players end up taking anyway: Greater Manyshot, Darkstalker, etc.

Make Gather Information and Knowledge (local) both class skills. [This is really just something that annoys me, due to the way I like to use scouts.]

My own biggest problem with the scout class has always been that they are on the one hand a stealthy character, which generally means moving slowly, and on the other hand rely on moving quickly for skirmish damage and AC bonuses. I would give the scout an ability like the Dread Commando's 'Stealthy Movement' ability which reduces movement penalties to hide/move silently.

[Aotrs Commander]

The list of bonus feats could be updated to include a few of the obvious feats most players end up taking anyway: Greater Manyshot, Darkstalker, etc.

Okay, good point.

(Maybe make an equivilent of Darkstalker - had to look that one up - as we now use a more PF-style Perception/Stealth (with spot or listen being reduced to conditional modifiers) as opposed ot Hide/Move Silent/Spot/Listen.)


Make Gather Information and Knowledge (local) both class skills. [This is really just something that annoys me, due to the way I like to use scouts.]

Could you expand on that?


My own biggest problem with the scout class has always been that they are on the one hand a stealthy character, which generally means moving slowly, and on the other hand rely on moving quickly for skirmish damage and AC bonuses. I would give the scout an ability like the Dread Commando's 'Stealthy Movement' ability which reduces movement penalties to hide/move silently.

That's... a really good point actually.

Stealth and movement are two things that do not go together well. (Unless invisibility is one the table, and having flying Rogue/Ninja/Invisible Blade has given me enough nightmares to be getting on with for a very long time..!)

Maybe scout ought to have two "options" (in the same way rangers have their weapons styles). One focussed on movement (like the scout currently, but, y'know, better) i.e. basically skirmishing and one more on stealth (and be really good, as in better-than-the-rogue/ranger, at stealth, maybe with either Sneak Attack of Sudden Strike instead of Skirmish (the latter beign designed for actual, scouting).

That could go a long way to ironing out some of the problems...

[nedz]

Scout works tolerably well with a Ray Sorcerer, something like
Scout 3 / Sorcerer 2 / Unseen Seer 10 / Arcane Trickster 5 with Practised Spellcaster and Improved Skirmish.

Though the best rays are not the ones which do damage, but still.

The real problems I've had with Scout though is that they are always feat starved, even with the bonuses.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If anyone knows of an existant "fix" (homebrew, PF or otherwise) that would be helpful (i.e. something like Seerow's Rebalanced Paladin, for example, which I now use or the Sublime Marshal).
Given how much thematic overlap Ranger and Scout have (ie, everything except for the spellcasting), I wrote a combined fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14192508#post14192508)that more-or-less gestalted them together, pumped up the class features that still stank, and linked favored enemy and skirmish together for elegance.

But for the "pure" scout, I'd say the single best option would be a way to make more attacks while moving. Perhaps grant the ability to make multiple attacks in a round, as long as you move in between each one (like the spring attack->bounding assault chain). Some more potent high-level class features wouldn't go amiss.

[elonin]

I don't know what I'd do to fix the scout. That idea about fixing movement issues reminds me of the dervish prc, though dervish doesn't work with this class.

[BowStreetRunner]

Could you expand on that?
I like to use scouts with military forces to go into the towns and villages scrounging for supplies and information. They also act as translators and guides for the military units. Gather Information seems conspicuously left out of the scout's repertoire, as it would be a very useful skill for someone who is supposed to...well...scout! Knowledge (local) seems to be the kind of thing that scouts would pay attention to as well - being able to understand and recognize local practices.

For the NPC scouts I create I often give them the City Slicker feat for this reason, but they are already so feat-starved it is still a pet peeve.


Maybe scout ought to have two "options" (in the same way rangers have their weapons styles). One focussed on movement (like the scout currently, but, y'know, better) i.e. basically skirmishing and one more on stealth (and be really good, as in better-than-the-rogue/ranger, at stealth, maybe with either Sneak Attack of Sudden Strike instead of Skirmish (the latter beign designed for actual, scouting).

I like this, since the current scout seems to be an amalgamation of two distinct types of archetypes. On the one hand you have the stealthy scout/sniper type who sneaks around, often deep inside enemy territory, and sometimes uses ambush tactics. On the other hand you have the skirmisher, who is traditionally an irregular soldier who operates on the periphery and ahead of the main body of troops, probing enemy lines and testing opposing defenses.

I would give the scout/sniper sudden strike instead of skirmish or sneak attack. This would be all about getting them with their DEX down by hitting from a hidden location. The skirmisher would keep the skirmish ability, but maybe drop the stealth abilities for a few more abilities to help survive combat.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Just a thought,
What about upping there skirmish damage to be the same as a rogue/ninja.. giving the +1 to ac at the levels they normally get them.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make Skirmish grant a bonus to hit equal to the number of d6's it grants in damage. Looking at the progression Scout gets from 1-20, it gets +1d6 at every level that it loses a point of BAB. This would effectively give the Scout an attack bonus equal to full BAB, but only when skirmishing.

Allow a Scout to spend their 12th level or later bonus feat on Bounding Assault, and their 20th level bonus feat on Rapid Blitz, without meeting the BAB prerequisites.

Allow Scout to take the Lion Spirit Totem ACF for Barbarian in CC at 3rd level in exchange for 10 ft. worth of fast movement to gain Pounce. This would make melee skirmishing considerably more viable.

Add Manyshot to the list of available bonus feats. This will allow a Scout archer to take Manyshot at 8th to be able to get Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) at 9th level. Otherwise he's waiting until level 12 for Greater Manyshot, or dipping a level of Fighter. Currently a Scout needs to go into Ranger with Swift Hunter to get Greater Manyshot at 9th and still maintain Skirmish, and most often ends up just sticking with Ranger with only three or four total levels of Scout in the entire build. You'll need to make single-classed Scout at least as attractive as Scout 3/ Ranger 17 with Swift Hunter in order for this overhaul to be successful.

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay, a starter for ten then, is to instigate some sort of Thing somewhere between Paladin specialisation and ranger combat style.

Expand bonus feats at 4/8/12/16/20 to : Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Athletic, Blind-Fight, Brachiation, Combat Expertise, Danger Sense, Dodge, Endurance, Far Shot, Great Fortitude, Greater Manyshot, Hear the Unseen, Improved Initiative, Improved Skirmish, Improved Swimming, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Manyshot, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Quick Reconnoitre, Rapid Reload, Shot on the Run, Skill Focus, Spring Attack, Swift Ambusher, Swift Hunter, Track.

(Note this list is what I currently give the scout anyway.)

(Let's pinch Pathfinder terminolgy and call 'em archtypes, for the sake of argument...)

Feats granted by archtypes ignore normal prereqs.

Ambusher

Replace Skirmish progression with +D6 Sudden Strike (optional?)

2nd Hide in Plain Sight; at 14th level, gain Stealthy Feat instead. (Note that until the scout gets camoflage, they still need some sort of appropriate place to hide to use HiPS on it's own.) Edit: better, less confusable:
2nd Disappear: The scout can make a hide check even when observed provided they have cover or concealment which which to hide behind.

HiPS can be left as is and essentially (mostly) replaces Disappear later. (Though Disappear would still mean you could hide when not in natural areas as well if you had cover or concealment.)

8th Pounce
15th ?

Skirmisher

2nd Spring Attack
8th Bounding Assault
15th Rapid Blitz

Psiloi

2nd Shot on the Run
8th Manyshot
15th ? (probably not Gtr manyshot, since you'd want it before then...)

Two-weapon... style...guy (I dunno...) (not sure about this one, really)

2nd TWF
8th Dual Strike }
15th Two-weapon pounce } could be other way around?

[Darth Stabber]

The reason that ranger and scout + swift hunter get paired up so frequently is because the two classes help cover each other's weaknesses very well (and being able to skirmish favored enemies who are otherwise immune thanks to swift hunter also helps significantly). As far as what the class needs, movement that allows full attack is near the top of the list, as is full BAB. I worked out a swift hunter build that utilized some of the ubercharger feats, twf, and spirit lion barbarian's pounce, and that was a fun build, so keep movement in mind.

[Aotrs Commander]

I don't think Scout needs full bab anymore than Rogue or Ninja do (and you can end up at the point that says everything that's not a caster needs full bab if you go too far down that route.

And I can emphatically say that Rogues do NOT need the extra help, they really, really, don't! The NPC Rogue 15 (now with a couple of levels of Warblade now that she's a player character) TWF specialist in my current game is cheerfully deaing out 48D6 sneak attack on top of her weapon damage per round... And she's the least optimised...!)

Monks, now monks really did need full bab, as a pure combat class (and they did need their flurry been modified to mean their 1-2 extra flurry attacks come when they make an attack action. And yes, come to that, this means Monk/Scout would make for an interesting combination in my house rules, must add a multiclass feat to that end.)

Scouts, though, are more light fighting skill monkeys. Or should be.

(Especially in my rules, since there is already another ranger-y type of character the Tracker which is nonspell using and focussed into tracking and (both via Track and Urban Tracking - so detective-y as well) which is full BAB D10 HD and 6 skills and trap-finding, plus a slow DR #/- progression (4/- at 19th) and the multiclassing (as it's not limited by armour) Quick Step untyped speed boost and six bnus fighter feats. It's a pretty good class, overall. Concieved a sort of not-magic Fighter/"Ranger" in the Aragorn sense with a bit of rogue for extra depth.)



That said, I think that BowStreetRunner was on the right track in that scouts ought to be good at actual scouting. Which at the moment... well, they ain't any better at it than rangers. Stealth and perception ought to be their Thing, rather than combat.

So.

In addition to the "archtypes", as suggested, add Bluff, Gather Information and Knowledge (Local) to class skills. (You could make an arguement for allowing all knowledge skills on the basis that your Recon ought to be know what crap is that they're seeing. Actually, the more I think about it, the more sense that makes.)

Adjust Flawless Stride to add the additional line "A scout also ignores any penalties to Move Silently/Stealth imposed by terrain (e.g. undergrowth)."

Maybe add a class feature that adds +10 to the Hide/Stealth roll when they take 20 to hide in a prepared position.

Add some sort of class feature to maybe grant a vision-range boost (like sort of +50% as opposed to low light's double (which would stack with low light for a totaly of 2.5 times normal range) or reduce distance penalties for listen/spot/perception checks.

Edit: changed HiPS in prior post above to something less easily confuseable.

[nedz]

Ambusher

Replace Skirmish progression with +D6 Sudden Strike (optional?)

2nd Hide in Plain Sight; at 14th level, gain Stealthy Feat instead. (Note that until the scout gets camoflage, they still need some sort of appropriate place to hide to use HiPS on it's own.) Edit: better, less confusable:
2nd Disappear: The scout can make a hide check even when observed provided they have cover or concealment which which to hide behind.

HiPS can be left as is and essentially (mostly) replaces Disappear later. (Though Disappear would still mean you could hide when not in natural areas as well if you had cover or concealment.)

8th Pounce
15th ?

Two-weapon... style...guy (I dunno...) (not sure about this one, really)

2nd TWF
8th Dual Strike }
15th Two-weapon pounce } could be other way around?
You can just use the Wilderness Rogue ACF.


That said, I think that BowStreetRunner was on the right track in that scouts ought to be good at actual scouting. Which at the moment... well, they ain't any better at it than rangers. Stealth and perception ought to be their Thing, rather than combat.

Eh ?
Rangers are meant to be good at this also.
Scouts get Blindsight, Camouflage and HiPs earlier than Rangers as it stands.

Scouts Shtick is their Skirmish mechanic, maybe just focus on making this work ? And Scouts issues are getting this to work with iteratives and being feat starved.

[Aotrs Commander]

You can just use the Wilderness Rogue ACF.

Not sure I'm follwing you. Are you saying "use the Wilderness Rogue instead of the scout, period" (in which case, no, the point is to make the scout work as a class) or are you saying use the wilderness rogue progression (which seems a bit pointless, since Scout gets it earlier than that anyway.)

The idea behind Disappear was to make the Scout be good at setting up ambushes from low-level, an having an ability not quite as good as HiPS seem like a good way to do that.


Scouts Shtick is their Skirmish mechanic, maybe just focus on making this work ? And Scouts issues are getting this to work with iteratives and being feat starved.

And this I think is the core of what I see as the problem, which BowStreetRunner put into perspective for me. The Scout's shtick shouldn't be skirmish which is a pure combat ability, certainly not to the extent that's all the class is focussed on, which is where the problem seems to be at the moment (Rangers aren't that focussed...). They ought to be focussed on actually scouting, and should be better at it than anybody else. (It doesn't matter if the scout's combat abilities only get a marginal boost if it can Do Something else better instead.) The scout's job should be to go, hide observe and report back, like how real recon works. At the moment, it's not especially any better at that than the Rogue/Ranger (et al) and it really should be.

[nedz]

Not sure I'm follwing you. Are you saying "use the Wilderness Rogue instead of the scout, period" (in which case, no, the point is to make the scout work as a class) or are you saying use the wilderness rogue progression (which seems a bit pointless, since Scout gets it earlier than that anyway.)
I was referring to your ambusher role, which can be achieved with the Wilderness Rogue ACF.



And this I think is the core of what I see as the problem, which BowStreetRunner put into perspective for me. The Scout's shtick shouldn't be skirmish which is a pure combat ability, certainly not to the extent that's all the class is focussed on, which is where the problem seems to be at the moment (Rangers aren't that focussed...). They ought to be focussed on actually scouting, and should be better at it than anybody else. (It doesn't matter if the scout's combat abilities only get a marginal boost if it can Do Something else better instead.) The scout's job should be to go, hide observe and report back, like how real recon works. At the moment, it's not especially any better at that than the Rogue/Ranger (et al) and it really should be.

But D&D is about combat at the end of the day, and there are a number of stealthy classes to choose from: Scout, Ranger, Rogue, Beguiler even Monk.
Actually Beguiler probably makes for the best scout, because spells; though Ranger isn't far behind for the same reason, at least if SpC is open.

So maybe you're right ? Scout is entirely mundane which puts it one the same level as Rogue, just with a different combat mechanic. But all mundane classes lose in 3.5

[Aotrs Commander]

I was referring to your ambusher role, which can be achieved with the Wilderness Rogue ACF.

But then what is the Scout?

If it's not a scout, if it's not good at scouting, then it's basically worthless as base class; as all it is at the moment is maybe a dip for rangers or a very subpar Rogue or Ninja.

As it stands, skirmish is a pretty terrible mechanic, the more I think about it. As it basically narrows down the scout to one narrow window of applicability to actually work i.e. being able to move and make a full attack/multiple attacks. Except, that really, there aren't any noncaster classes the don't benefit massively fom that (TWF rogues, Fighter ranged specialists1). The difference is, the Scout HAS to move every time.

(It's basically taken using this thread as a sounding board to realise that Skirmish - the supposed main feature of the Scout - is probably the Scout's single biggest problem.)

You can make the scout work in spite of skirmish by use of magic items and other methods (that often involve Not Being a Scout). The fact skirmish locks the whole class into basically one style of combat to be viable is I think the real problem I've had with this class.


But D&D is about combat at the end of the day, and there are a number of stealthy classes to choose from: Scout, Ranger, Rogue, Beguiler even Monk.
Actually Beguiler probably makes for the best scout, because spells; though Ranger isn't far behind for the same reason, at least if SpC is open.

So maybe you're right ? Scout is entirely mundane which puts it one the same level as Rogue, just with a different combat mechanic. But all mundane classes lose in 3.5

There are no classes that are really stealth specialists, though. Hide/Move Silently is really not all that useful alone as a scouting tool (by the time you get HiPS, certainly not, as you've had access to invisibilty for fourteen levels. HiPS isn't really all that amazing considering how late it comes.)

Aside from using divination or maybe familiars, no classes have any particular ability to recon well. Aside from getting roughly the same skill checks, no class is currently better are spotting things than any other.

It's a niche the scout could actually fill usefully, with some work. If not, I'm beginning to come to the conclusion the class is a lost cause.

I need to go and have a think for a bit now, because this discussion has been very illustrative to me that the problem I have with Scout isn't actually the one I thought I had. (And one shuld know what the problem is - and what the answer should be - before one does any rules-smithing.)



1And I can assure you, armed with a feat every level instead of just every other, ranged fighter specialists are absolute murder. The TWF dagger specialist (up to what, about ten attacks now at 17th level is capable of dealing out a frack-ton of damage every round from a safe distance. Though the Rogue/Ninja/Invisible Blade/Swordsage is really horrific (did 345 damage with one full attack - plus 14 Con damage yesterday.) Mundane classes absolutely not not lose in the 3.5 paradigm we use in. (Admittedly, in that specific case Wings of Flying make him invisible and flying, so he can get into position much easier, but without that he'd only be moderately horrific...)

[Phelix-Mu]

Actually, having to move to get skirmish off isn't a huge restriction. (In before Person_Man and free movement.)

I think if you google free movement you will find that there are myriad tricks to allow one to move x distance in the round and still have time for more than one attack. Travel Devotion is a classic here, and fairly elegant, but there are numerous others. The key to making a fixed skirmish mechanic is to build options for some kind of free movement into the class.

So here is a trick I use for a simple monk fix in campaigns where (for some reason) I'm not using a more comprehensive monk fix:

- Allow a scout to move a distance equal to half of its movement speed as a swift action.

This has several effects that I've noted:
1.) Melee skirmish is much more attractive, as one can now Tumble away from an enemy after attacking it with a move action to get skirmish. This is still a low-level approach, but not staying inside melee range is most urgent at low levels.
2.) More skirmish more of the time.
3.) More versatility within the normal combat round.
4.) It's a nice out-of-combat increase to speed, as well, giving Scouts the ability to move rapidly in the overland sense as well.
5.) Finally, it improves the problem with Stealthing being slow, since the total movement allowable in the round goes up, so half of that bigger total is still a respectable amount (and even better if you are giving them some ability to Stealth at full speed with reduced penalties).

Anyway, good luck. Rebuilding martial classes isn't easy, especially those that tend toward ranged attacks.

[BowStreetRunner]

- Allow a scout to move a distance equal to half of its movement speed as a swift action.

Movement as a swift action is actually far preferable to the fast movement ability currently granted. Even if you limit it to the 10 ft granted at 3rd level and upgraded to 20 ft at 11th level, this becomes a far superior ability both for combat and for stealth.

[Aotrs Commander]

Actually, having to move to get skirmish off isn't a huge restriction. (In before Person_Man and free movement.)

I found the list - a fair number of that comes from sources out side the available list, and some from magic items (which may or may not always be avilable), though Travel Devotion is probably the easiest.

But the trouble is that you can play a rogue or a fighter that benefits as much, if not arguably more (as skirmish's AC boost is okay, but really neither here nor there at top level) with the same free movement.

The fact that you have to spend feats and/or magic items on being able to get the class to use it's class features is scout's biggest problem.



So here is a trick I use for a simple monk fix in campaigns where (for some reason) I'm not using a more comprehensive monk fix:

- Allow a scout to move a distance equal to half of its movement speed as a swift action.

This has several effects that I've noted:
1.) Melee skirmish is much more attractive, as one can now Tumble away from an enemy after attacking it with a move action to get skirmish. This is still a low-level approach, but not staying inside melee range is most urgent at low levels.
2.) More skirmish more of the time.
3.) More versatility within the normal combat round.
4.) It's a nice out-of-combat increase to speed, as well, giving Scouts the ability to move rapidly in the overland sense as well.
5.) Finally, it improves the problem with Stealthing being slow, since the total movement allowable in the round goes up, so half of that bigger total is still a respectable amount (and even better if you are giving them some ability to Stealth at full speed with reduced penalties).

That's one option, I suppose...

But I'm more leaning towards replacing skirmish entirely with Sudden Strike, and then giving the scout ways to better make enemies flat-footed (cribbing and improving the Ranger's Distracting Attack ACF might be one, the aforementioned better and eariler ability to hide, improve ability to bluff etc etc). Combined with something improving it's stealth and perception abilities (the latter along the line of, say Hawkeye feat from UT, I think, that improves your precision damage range). Basically putting it more towards the rogue/ninja paradigm (move and set-up position, then full attack murder) than the ranger.


Anyway, good luck. Rebuilding martial classes isn't easy, especially those that tend toward ranged attacks.

It isn't at that. Still, I've thus far managed for the paradigm I run games at, so there's that.

Like I say, this thread has - and still is being! - incredibly useful in working out what it is I actually want to "fix." (Which clearly isn't what it was I thought it was when I started it!)

[nedz]

There are no classes that are really stealth specialists, though. Hide/Move Silently is really not all that useful alone as a scouting tool (by the time you get HiPS, certainly not, as you've had access to invisibilty for fourteen levels. HiPS isn't really all that amazing considering how late it comes.)

This depends more upon the DM than the players.
Is there suitable terrain ?
Do you get a chance to scout or is it always "Roll Spot, Roll initiative" ?

Hide is useful until you get Invisibility, and then useful again after See Invisible and later True Seeing become common.

Now I have played in a scouty party (with a Ranger, Scout, Monk and Fighter/Rogue/Cleric) from levels 6-18 and the Scout is the weak link. OK the Fighter/Rogue/Cleric isn't that Scouty anymore but the Scout just doesn't cut it — He seemed to peak at around 12th level. The Ranger and the Scout are noticeably more useful than the others in the Jungle, but in a fight the Scout fails. I have to say: the Monk is better.