Why I hate houserules that aren't VERY well thought out

[Immabozo]

I was playing a game with some friends a while back. I had a lot of fun, the two players were friends I rarely get to see and lave spending time with, the DM was new to me.

To give you an idea, one of the players very first initiative is "I throw open my cloak, to reveal that I am wearing absolutely nothing and run out of the tavern screaming 'LEAVE BEFORE THEY TOUCH YOU TOO!'"

So as we are going along, it quickly becomes obvious the DM decided it would be a great idea to make the world's economy cost double the listed price for everything, except only 1.5 times for that kingdom's specialty (wondrous items, or armor, or wands, or whatever). Seems cool.

Then a little later, when we were asking why all his monsters seemed to have so many damn hitpoints, he informed us of another house rule. Everyone gets full HP every level. Well my HP just nearly doubled! (at level 14 I had just over 350 hp when raging)

So now he had to give his encounters even harder to counteract this new house rule.

On top of this, I just incidentally picked the perfect build for his world, Babarian/war hulk in a mainly martial (or bows and arrows) world with some magic, that was utterly at war. And I am a pretty good optimizer at melee builds and the other fighter was the same, helping me with mine, so it was almost as much his baby as mine, so optimizing as much as possible wasn't a problem.

So I was really strong (at level 10 I 2 shotted an adult blue dragon - 16D8+127 damage) and the DM's grasp on game mechanics was weak (a more "story line is everything" DM) and so he would throw house ruled more powerful stuff at us that was in no way rules legal and then not understand why I was upset (from the beginning, not just then, I quickly saw we were playing two different games).

I started getting mad at the DM because he would give me, and only me, nerfs, so much to the point of EVERY time we leveled up, there was a specified list of PrC we could level up in. This list was 5-20 classes long. (on a random roll-of-the-die once! I had to take Elemental warrior on that one - yuck!)

So to make us happier, and stay playing with him, he would give us better and better rewards to keep us coming back to play. Intelligent +5 items with 3 SLAs, +30 unnamed bonus spot AND listen and more.

Then, in an adventure into the Underdark which was ravaged by a nasty disease that turned everyone into zombies, we found a city with special defenses against it. In this city, the economy was half. EVERYTHING was half cost. Both players to join our game, came from there and WBL was utterly destroyed, by effectively doubling it. Characters were way too strong for their own good.

Existing players benefited some from that economy, making that "effective +2" enchantment on a +3 weapon go from a 32,000 gold upgrade, to a much more manageable 16,000 (we WERE getting money rewards for a double cost economy too!).

It got so bad, that in our second or third-to-last session, we signed up for a tournament. This was a no-magic items tournament - you stripped naked, were given new, not even masterwork equipment of your choosing, and sent in to battle.

Our team, me and one other fighter type, both ECL 14 (I had 1 LA, he had 3) and a level 14 wizard. Our opposing team, 5 level 15 characters. A psion/fighter, a cleric, a monk, a rogue and an archer (the archer is ALWAYS the build DM hand woven to counter my character. There is almost no fight I was ever in that he wasnt. A CR 23 encounter, at least. Well, we are good players, with very optimized fighters. We mopped the floor with them.

Next fight, 6 or 7 level 17 characters with DM homebrew feats (Final Fantasy inspired, with the guy that leaps real high and crashes down for lots of damage, although I AoO + knockback bullrush (at +60) = changed trajectory, meaning he was thrown out of the open-roofed Colosseum style arena. But we beat that encounter with considerable effort. About CR 27-29.

Next fight (all one-after-the-next, no rest, wizard is out of useful spells) we are fighting Drizz't (luckily, solo). A level 25 character. It comes down to a mano-on-mano fight between me and him. I emerge victorious, barely.

Last fight, a 35 HD demon. Full round of attacks, after DR, I did 8 damage. Great. Then the DM points out the friggin DM-designed power of my two friend's armor to basically say "Wonder twin powers activate" and then be joined together into a 41 HD paragon super powerful celestial being (actually it was summoned, but they got to control it, ironically, no one realized at the time, they weren't wearing their armor)

Then our little rogue that spent the whole campaign on his own agenda and often screwing us over in the process, some how "combined" with the demon and became a 41 HD paragon demon and the two sat there trading massive spell blasts and swings and it was all very stupid. The players sat there arguing about combining with the demon and absorbing his power and then becoming an 82 HD god and ascending to supreme god-hood and... it was no longer D&D.

I got out of there and tried to assassinate the king, but the DM houserulled that the 6 int I USED TO HAVE (12 int at the time and it wasn't a temporary buff) meant that I thought an illusion of the king was real and even with my 13 wisdom and +21 will save, I wasn't even allowed a saving throm to disbelieve it was real, even after a full charge, pounce, full attack and hit an interior metal core that causedd me to make a DC twenty something fort save or be stunned. Then, when I got, what I was lead to believe to be the staff I was after, very quickly, the god debate was over and somehow this 41 HD paragon demon and the 41 HD paragon celestial being, decided in mid fight, that fighting was of no use, shook hands and were done, both players "un-fused" and then cast scry (a 1 hour casting time), found me, teleported to me, mage-hand grabbed the staff away from me, all in one turn of the wizard's initiative, then when I tried to grapple him to take it away, he force caged me as an immediate action, it was dispelled (by the god who had a geas on me) and I went for it again, then he teleported away, as an immediate action.

The DM wouldn't even listen to my cries of protest.

My point? Houserules that are not very well thought out, seem to spiral out of control and make very large game changes, even if you can't see them immediately.

Also, don't game with a DM that doesn't like you, even if you love the players, I always left SUPER pissed off.

[Deathkeeper]

I do believe I've heard you talk about this story before. It still seems like a whole lot of stuff that was dumb waaay before that climax.

[Tanuki Tales]

I feel like there may be context here we're missing. But the Paragon Armor thing is definitely something I flat out agree as not being cool.

[ArqArturo]

Our DM tried the called shot rules from Ultimate Combat, in Pathfinder. One of our players, who likes to powergame a lot (he even mused over actually using Pun-Pun one time) wanted to roll a dhampir gunslinger/monk with the maneuver master archetype (the idea was to grapple, shoot, and drink blood, or grapple and make everything useless). Another player, whom he considered the called shot a bad idea, made an alchemist/barbarian prove the point, by doing a ranged called-shot to the eye.

With a horse.

[Lanson]

Sounds like it's less a problem with houserules, and more a problem with terrible DMs.

I had a DM exactly like yours, but we were playing 4E. He would give the party huge arbitrary boosts and take them away the next session for "dramatic tension." He would also cross out things in his books, and use pen to write new rules or change the ones he didnt like. He would give us "amazing" home-brewed items, stuff that makes epic weapons look bad, and disarm/ use them against us. Every person in the world immediately attacked us without provocation, and were always roughly 10 levels higher than us, creatures were assigned arbitrary hit points and attack bonuses and we never gained xp, we leveled when the dm felt we deserved it. We played for 3 months, hit lvl 5, I had 180 hp, and was the most powerful character in game as a barbarian because I only ever took his home-brewed feats, particularly one that gave me +4 to hit, +8 to damage, each time I took it, and he would give us feats fairly randomly as well. In the end we stopped playing with him because he would whine at us when we would win, and he'd tell us to "quit bitching" when we would get our faces stomped in again and again. We had a win rate of about 45% and I actually got a job before I had the chance to leave, so I couldnt play even if I wanted to (I didnt) the group fell apart after that. He gave me a scathing text about me being a.. well, let's just say he used nearly every swear to describe how "unmanly" i was for not avoiding him, even though I had an overnight job, and he couldnt stay up late cuz he worked early mornings.

I feel your pain Bozo, I feel it so bad. Some people should just never DM.

Edit: My current dm is the only one I've had that doesnt have a long list of horror stories he's put me through. (5th DM I've had since starting)

[Tanuki Tales]

One of our players, who likes to powergame a lot (he even mused over actually using Pun-Pun one time)

Sounds more like a munchkin than a powergamer.

[Tork]

My point? Houserules that are not very well thought out, seem to spiral out of control and make very large game changes, even if you can't see them immediately.

On the other side though: don't just assume a DM's house rule is not very well thought out, just as you don't like it.

The vast majority of DM's know much more about the game and the rules then the vast majority of players. A lot of players are very casual, and just show up to game, but don't read over the rules all the time.

And far too many players are not objective when it comes to rules. If a rule, rule interpretation, typo, misprint or the like is in the players favor, they will often be all for it.

Though the OP's Dm was bad and crazy.

[Chronos]

From the OP:

On top of this, I just incidentally picked the perfect build for his world, Babarian/war hulk in a mainly martial (or bows and arrows) world with some magic, that was utterly at war.
Actually, magic items being double normal price and all HP being maximized both favor spellcasters. Spellcasters can produce essential magical effects on their own, without needing to rely on items to do them for them, and can completely ignore HP by just using save-or-lose spells.

[Epinephrine_Syn]

Another vote for "This is far less the houserules existing and more the way the gm handled it".

If you want actual help with house rules though, I strongly suggest you ask "Any House Rules, Fixes, Limitations, Gentleman's Agreements, or Spell Bans in place?", or something to that effect.

[Sylthia]

Sounds more like a munchkin than a powergamer.

A rose by any other name...

[CRtwenty]

A rose by any other name...

Is still weaker than the far superior Tier 1 Tulips. :smallwink:

[Sylthia]

Is still weaker than the far superior Tier 1 Tulips. :smallwink:

Although roses' thorns get AoOs on people who try to pick them.

[Corinath]

I've only had a handful of DMs, but all from the same group of players. And about half of us are well versed in game mechanics, so we all feel free to call shenanigans on each other.

The only campaign I've played (New to D20 I am) wound up being ridiculous in the end because of two things. A) Everyone got full hp per level, B) Weapons were more powerful to reflect this. Which might work, really, except...

C) This was a Vitality / Wounds campaign.

Enter "I crit your character for 50 damage to wounds".

LoL.

To be fair, on realizing how utterly ridiculous this was (particularly in a campaign with no resurrection (It was Star Wars)), he would merely amputate us in place of death and say we were disabled.

:)

[Squirrel_Dude]

The economy rules seem less like a bad houserule and poorly implemented houserule. Unless there was a bunch of travel involved. Then it's a terrible houserule because any player with a lick of sense will immediately start talking to merchants/make knowledge checks/eat babies to find out what the pricing of items in other cities is.

[Alienist]

Well, a couple of observations:

(1) congratulations on creating such an effective character that you can consistently solo encounters 10 CR too high, naked.

(2) something tells me that you could be part of the problem (please refer to item 1 above)

Yes, it's hard for DMs to make meaningful challenges to the players without 'cheating' if they're heavily optimised, but don't complain about the DM breaking the game if you already snapped its spine over your knee and left it dying in the gutter.

Don't get to caught up in things like CR and WBL and policing whether the DM tossed someone else a bone, for starters that crap is for people who think that things like toughness are good feats, secondly you end up tying to be the fun police.

(3) Sounds like you're in the headspace where every time the DM does something that you disagree with you get progressively more and more wound up, and you never unwind. If that's the case, then your relationship with D&D sounds unhealthy. The absolute best thing you can do is figure out how to wind the clock back to zero between sessions. Figure out how to forgive the DM before you find yourself climbing a water-tower with a sniper's rifle.

:-(

[ericgrau]

I hate house rules that don't have a ton of thought too, but these seem like they don't have any thought. It's more like a problem with DMs who do random unexpected things that cause you to redo everything in your character or be stuck with something lousy. Or, suddenly, you get something incredibly good that trumps any of your original plans. But it doesn't depend on you, it's only the DM playing now.

[Immabozo]

I apologize this is a long post, I am spoilering where I find appropriate, or just funny, to conserve space. It is, after all, the final frontier.


I do believe I've heard you talk about this story before. It still seems like a whole lot of stuff that was dumb waaay before that climax.

Probably, I posted about the problem in the middle of it. A post I read re-ignited the fire temporarily and I decided to post an anti-house rules post.


I feel like there may be context here we're missing. But the Paragon Armor thing is definitely something I flat out agree as not being cool.

Granted, you dont have all the details. Like 2 months of gaming is a long post and hard to remember. It was all a gradual thing


I feel your pain Bozo, I feel it so bad. Some people should just never DM.

I love how the playground refers to me as Bozo. My baby sister (who created the SN) would be proud.

I agree on bad DMs, but sometimes it is necessary, its the bad ideas and the bad experiences that make the good stories.


On the other side though: don't just assume a DM's house rule is not very well thought out, just as you don't like it.

The vast majority of DM's know much more about the game and the rules then the vast majority of players. A lot of players are very casual, and just show up to game, but don't read over the rules all the time.

And far too many players are not objective when it comes to rules. If a rule, rule interpretation, typo, misprint or the like is in the players favor, they will often be all for it.

Though the OP's Dm was bad and crazy.

I agree, especially the "If the typo or error works in the players favor, he's all for it" bit.

But, all of his house rules had far reaching effects that, while some of them seeming alright at first, either their interaction with other house rules, or something like that, had unintended effects. With all the "looking for house rule" posts I see, a warning post seems in order. Just make sure all your house rules play nice.

And yes, yes he was.


Actually, magic items being double normal price and all HP being maximized both favor spellcasters. Spellcasters can produce essential magical effects on their own, without needing to rely on items to do them for them, and can completely ignore HP by just using save-or-lose spells.

I agree, you are right, but I meant my build of a martial character. I was deciding between a few variations of my build, deciding "do I want to do that, or this?" and I accidentally chose the right one for his world.


The economy rules seem less like a bad houserule and poorly implemented houserule. Unless there was a bunch of travel involved. Then it's a terrible houserule because any player with a lick of sense will immediately start talking to merchants/make knowledge checks/eat babies to find out what the pricing of items in other cities is.

There was quite some travel involved, crossing war zones, but the besty one (everything is half price) was (albeit, a trip through a nasty plague-infested underdark) in our back yard. Our deeds earned us a gift from a prince of an island with a castle fortress. In our basement was a magical seal and on the other side, the entrance through said underdark, where the half off economy city was.


Well, a couple of observations:

(1) congratulations on creating such an effective character that you can consistently solo encounters 10 CR too high, naked.

(2) something tells me that you could be part of the problem (please refer to item 1 above)

Yes, it's hard for DMs to make meaningful challenges to the players without 'cheating' if they're heavily optimised, but don't complain about the DM breaking the game if you already snapped its spine over your knee and left it dying in the gutter.

Don't get to caught up in things like CR and WBL and policing whether the DM tossed someone else a bone, for starters that crap is for people who think that things like toughness are good feats, secondly you end up tying to be the fun police.

(3) Sounds like you're in the headspace where every time the DM does something that you disagree with you get progressively more and more wound up, and you never unwind. If that's the case, then your relationship with D&D sounds unhealthy. The absolute best thing you can do is figure out how to wind the clock back to zero between sessions. Figure out how to forgive the DM before you find yourself climbing a water-tower with a sniper's rifle.

:-(

In response to # 1 and then 2, thank you, but it wasn't so much solo (the other fighter was fairly well optimized, too). Also, he had a young dragon mount that was useful in combat. The fight with Drizz't was 2 other players saying "we are hungry" and go out for pizza, since the wizard was out of spells and no useful contributions and the other fighter went with him just because.

I only won that fight because of two, in a row rounds of "F**K IT, I'm going balls-to-the-walls and going all in, full power attack" plus good rolling and some well synergizing feats reducing the retaliation options.

In the land of poor-to-mid optimization tier 5 through 3, played by a mechanically weak DM, the fairly well optimized, scratching the top of tier 3, played by a decent player, is king.

As far as the "Don't get caught up in policing the DM" thing, I am a bit guilty of that, mostly because of circumstance. I slowly slid into it. Circumstance was mostly because I drove an hour to get there and play, why should I be treated like this? (limiting character choices, allowing a degree of PvP by only one player, who did so via diplomacy and not keeping him in check, ignoring almost anything I ever had to say, etc. Some was warranted, some was not needed, there were several times I tried to calm myself down, because the point I was contesting, had it come out of any DM's mouth other than him, I would have said "...hmmmm... ok....interesting..." (like an apparently worse armor reward given to me, being worth signifigantly more than the apparently superior armor of another).

3. Is there a D&D rehab?

but seriously, having my new girlfriend come to our second-to-last session and then continuing to just be around her (I really like her) definitely helped me unwind from that campaign. Her being there made me not care about how angry I would have been if she wasn't there. Women can really have an amazing affect like that. But then they can be the opposite if they want to be!

I know, she likes D&D, and Magic the Gathering, she fences in the SCA, she is a total nerd, has nerd friends, likes Stargate, which I am watching with her from the beginning, has read every single star wars book ever printed and knows those references better than me, she's smart (studying to be an architect), and she's gorgeous. Yes, I know, I found a mythical creature.

Edit:


I hate house rules that don't have a ton of thought too, but these seem like they don't have any thought. It's more like a problem with DMs who do random unexpected things that cause you to redo everything in your character or be stuck with something lousy. Or, suddenly, you get something incredibly good that trumps any of your original plans. But it doesn't depend on you, it's only the DM playing now.

Agreed 100%

[Spuddles]

3 LVL14 vs 7 CR17 is an ECL23 encounter. Still pretty dumb.

I hate campaigns like that. Luckily most of my DMs aren't nearly that deficient.

[Immabozo]

3 LVL14 vs 7 CR17 is an ECL23 encounter. Still pretty dumb.

I hate campaigns like that. Luckily most of my DMs aren't nearly that deficient.

eh, so my CR math is a little off. I was told it was 2 CR for every additional, equal-level opponent.

EDIT: CR = class levels on non monstrous opponents, plus what I said above

[Spuddles]

Here's what I use for encounter math:

http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/

[Immabozo]

Here's what I use for encounter math:

http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/

solid reasoning.

[ArqArturo]

Although roses' thorns get AoOs on people who try to pick them.

And this is why I distrust House Tyrell.

[Kornaki]

eh, so my CR math is a little off. I was told it was 2 CR for every additional, equal-level opponent.

EDIT: CR = class levels on non monstrous opponents, plus what I said above

Your statement is ambiguous enough to be correct and give you the wrong math. One CR 13 opponent is CR 13. If you have two, it's CR 15. To get to CR 17, you have to add another CR 15 group to the fight - so either one CR 15 creature or two more CR 13 creatures. Then to get to CR 19 you have to add another CR 17 group to the fight, which would be four more CR 13 creatures

[Immabozo]

Your statement is ambiguous enough to be correct and give you the wrong math. One CR 13 opponent is CR 13. If you have two, it's CR 15. To get to CR 17, you have to add another CR 15 group to the fight - so either one CR 15 creature or two more CR 13 creatures. Then to get to CR 19 you have to add another CR 17 group to the fight, which would be four more CR 13 creatures

Took a few read throughs to make my will save vs. confusion, but that makes sense.

[Kudaku]

Judging by how you describe your character, I'm reasonably sure you either googled a guide to optimize a "strong character" or you spend a fair amount of time hanging out on forums like this. As for how you describe your GM, I'm reasonably sure he has a low understanding of optimization in general and that he does not spend much time on the RPG forums. Keep in mind that there's nothing wrong with either of these viewpoints - low and high op both works perfectly well, however they tend to clash if they're at the same table.

To me it sounds like the GM was confronted with players who wanted to play a very different game from what he originally intended, and he wasn't very confident in his GMing skill set. He made some pretty bad mistakes. I don't really think his houserules, or houserules in general, are the problem here. In fact, some of the things he did does makes sense to me.

You describe how you had to pay double for various items, unless it was the area's "speciality" - then the cost was 1.5x. I actually think the idea of regional price differences in items is an interesting idea, since it makes the campaign world come more to life. That said, a flat multiplier strikes me as lazy.

You mention how you got crazy item rewards like +30 to listen & spot, +5 intelligent items etc. The Mantle of Great Stealth seems a reasonable comparison to the spot item, and that's an Epic item priced at 242 000 GP. Presumably these items put you way above your intended WBL?

You then complain that two players that joined later got to shop in a city with a discount, thus being able to buy more with their WBL... Is it possible he gave them this opportunity so they could join the party on an equal footing with the rest of you?

Limiting prestige classes I have no problem with. If you're playing in a custom campaign, some just flat out doesn't make sense. That said, In general I'd work together with my players in order to accommodate whatever they want to play. Rolling a person's class is a "no-no" that should be written in great burning letters in the sky.

Max HP for monsters is a useful (if lazy) fix if you're playing with big parties, since the HP buffer helps offset the action economy advantage. To me it sounds like he intended this rule to only apply to monsters, then changed his mind / was pressured into applying this on both sides of the table.

As for the encounters:
CR and the encounter rules are guidelines. They're not hardcoded into the game, and they're designed for a party of average to low optimization. They're meant to be a useful tool for a DM to eyeball the challenge level of the encounters he designs. The higher level you get, the less useful CR becomes since the gap between low and high optimization multiplies with each level - what is a curbstomp for a party with incantatrix-level optimization would be a party wipe for a party with OA Samurai-level optimization.

[Darth Stabber]

The key to good house rules and good homebrew is knowing what rules are "load bearing walls". As I am sure many people here will attest: WBL is definitely load bearing, and that's just one example. When ever you change or tweak a rule you have to look carefully at every thing dependant on that rule.

Example rule 1: removing multiclassing xp penalty
This is one of the most common house rules going. By removing it, you really don't lose much, as nothing is actually dependant on it (other than favored class having mechanical meaning). And even if left in place, it doesn't actually do as much as people think. If your xp rate slows, you will fall behind a level, at that point your xp rate will increase a lot, meaning you will catch up quickly. This also why XP as a cost works, because you trade a small amount of "level time" for what is usually a big gain. You don't want to go hog wild with it, but it really doesn't hurt as much as you might think. By removing the multiclassing penalty all you are doing is removing that "level time" penalty. It's not like tier1-2 builds are likely to suffer due to this rule (since they are only leaving their classes for PRCs, and those don't incur this rule). The net result is actually helping non-casters, which is important (though the gain is small).

Example 2: "low magic" campaigns. These campaigns typically feature a low availability of magic items, and characters significantly below the wealth by level guidelines. The HUGE PROBLEM with this is that the CR system is built with this guideline in mind, and equipment is an important key to power. The CR system has rightly been criticized for being wonky, but with a significantly below wbl party it becomes a useless number in short order. Look at any discussion of vow of poverty and you see just how poweful magic items are. The CR system assumes that you have access to certain abilities by certain levels. A low level flying monster is probably a full cr higher than it would be if grounded, where as monsters at mid levels don't have that cost, and the difference between flying and grounded is probably minimal. By high levels having monsters that don't fly can make them trivially easy, most monsters have access to it, and that is taken into consideration for CR. In the "low magic" game you are behind on math (due to lacking sufficient item granted bonuses), and non-casters will be without effects needed to do their job, because their class can't handle it. In scenarios where this poorly thought out idea comes to play, you might actually want to consider Vow of Poverty, because that feat will at least keep your math in the neighborhood of right, and you could easily be at a higher "effective wealth" than your partymates. WBL is definitely a load bearing wall.

[Immabozo]

As an effort to reduce the massive novel of a response that Kudaku's post has procured.


Judging by how you describe your character, I'm reasonably sure you either googled a guide to optimize a "strong character" or you spend a fair amount of time hanging out on forums like this.

Nope, I have done my research. Lots of it. Reading someone did this, "oh, I like that feat" another person mentions a PrC, sounds interesting, look it up, etc. Found my favorite PrC, feats combinations and such.


As for how you describe your GM, I'm reasonably sure he has a low understanding of optimization in general and that he does not spend much time on the RPG forums. Keep in mind that there's nothing wrong with either of these viewpoints - low and high op both works perfectly well, however they tend to clash if they're at the same table.

To me it sounds like the GM was confronted with players who wanted to play a very different game from what he originally intended, and he wasn't very confident in his GMing skill set. He made some pretty bad mistakes. I don't really think his houserules, or houserules in general, are the problem here. In fact, some of the things he did does makes sense to me.

You describe how you had to pay double for various items, unless it was the area's "speciality" - then the cost was 1.5x. I actually think the idea of regional price differences in items is an interesting idea, since it makes the campaign world come more to life. That said, a flat multiplier strikes me as lazy.

I agree on the price modifier, but 6-8 weeks of questing for monetary rewards in a double economy, suddenly finding themselves in a deceptively easy to get to half cost economy I think made things slightly difficult for him, but not a huge issue, but letting players start there and spend full WBL in a half economy, made life very hard. (my girlfriend's cleric's WBL of 100,000 was effectively 200,000. Since I was not being very sportsman-like and the whole group planned on quitting, I made her a DMM: persist cleric that had 6 buffs running all the time and she was.... utterly confused how to play the character and it didn't work in the slightest.

But I agree, high op and low op dont mix very well.


You mention how you got crazy item rewards like +30 to listen & spot, +5 intelligent items etc. The Mantle of Great Stealth seems a reasonable comparison to the spot item, and that's an Epic item priced at 242 000 GP. Presumably these items put you way above your intended WBL?

You then complain that two players that joined later got to shop in a city with a discount, thus being able to buy more with their WBL... Is it possible he gave them this opportunity so they could join the party on an equal footing with the rest of you?

Honestly, I don't think he had the understanding of game mechanics to make a decision that deep, but it is possible. It's a good point, in those circumstances.


Limiting prestige classes I have no problem with. If you're playing in a custom campaign, some just flat out doesn't make sense. That said, In general I'd work together with my players in order to accommodate whatever they want to play. Rolling a person's class is a "no-no" that should be written in great burning letters in the sky.

Limiting classes and source books, etc, is a decent idea. But upon being asked at charachter creation was "no, it is a very open world, all books are available" and then, a few levels into the campaign, he would give us a very specific set of PrC, usually from only one book of his choosing, but it wasn't "anything from this book" but "only these few PrC from only this one book" and it didn't matter is it didn't fit with your build. One time he offered me a class whose class features were +1 to any arcane spell casting class, on a melee beat stick build with no spell casting.


Max HP for monsters is a useful (if lazy) fix if you're playing with big parties, since the HP buffer helps offset the action economy advantage. To me it sounds like he intended this rule to only apply to monsters, then changed his mind / was pressured into applying this on both sides of the table.

If he was, I didn't hear it.

*everyone is furiously erasing something on their character sheets, doing math and then exclaiming about increased hp*
Me: "What just happened? Did I miss something?
My friend: "Yeah, Jacob just gave us full HP at each level."
me: "Oh, cool. I think that's gonna come back to bite him in the ass, but ok."


As for the encounters:
CR and the encounter rules are guidelines. They're not hardcoded into the game, and they're designed for a party of average to low optimization. They're meant to be a useful tool for a DM to eyeball the challenge level of the encounters he designs. The higher level you get, the less useful CR becomes since the gap between low and high optimization multiplies with each level - what is a curbstomp for a party with incantatrix-level optimization would be a party wipe for a party with OA Samurai-level optimization.

I see... That makes sense. I never thought of it quite like that.


The key to good house rules and good homebrew is knowing what rules are "load bearing walls". As I am sure many people here will attest: WBL is definitely load bearing, and that's just one example. When ever you change or tweak a rule you have to look carefully at every thing dependant on that rule.

Example rule 1: removing multiclassing xp penalty
This is one of the most common house rules going. By removing it, you really don't lose much, as nothing is actually dependant on it (other than favored class having mechanical meaning). And even if left in place, it doesn't actually do as much as people think. If your xp rate slows, you will fall behind a level, at that point your xp rate will increase a lot, meaning you will catch up quickly. This also why XP as a cost works, because you trade a small amount of "level time" for what is usually a big gain. You don't want to go hog wild with it, but it really doesn't hurt as much as you might think. By removing the multiclassing penalty all you are doing is removing that "level time" penalty. It's not like tier1-2 builds are likely to suffer due to this rule (since they are only leaving their classes for PRCs, and those don't incur this rule). The net result is actually helping non-casters, which is important (though the gain is small).

Example 2: "low magic" campaigns. These campaigns typically feature a low availability of magic items, and characters significantly below the wealth by level guidelines. The HUGE PROBLEM with this is that the CR system is built with this guideline in mind, and equipment is an important key to power. The CR system has rightly been criticized for being wonky, but with a significantly below wbl party it becomes a useless number in short order. Look at any discussion of vow of poverty and you see just how poweful magic items are. The CR system assumes that you have access to certain abilities by certain levels. A low level flying monster is probably a full cr higher than it would be if grounded, where as monsters at mid levels don't have that cost, and the difference between flying and grounded is probably minimal. By high levels having monsters that don't fly can make them trivially easy, most monsters have access to it, and that is taken into consideration for CR. In the "low magic" game you are behind on math (due to lacking sufficient item granted bonuses), and non-casters will be without effects needed to do their job, because their class can't handle it. In scenarios where this poorly thought out idea comes to play, you might actually want to consider Vow of Poverty, because that feat will at least keep your math in the neighborhood of right, and you could easily be at a higher "effective wealth" than your partymates. WBL is definitely a load bearing wall.

Wise you are, master of the home brew-fu