New DM and Roleplaying Questions

[Empirespy]

Hi, I'm new to the forums, though I've read the comics for a while now, and have being intermittently play for several years now, and I have a few questions on DMing, as this will be my second campaign I am running.

First off, its etiquette on altering Player Characters. Basically, I intend to implement some major challenges, to specific PCs, that could drastically alter their characters. I haven't decided on any, as I will only be implementing a few if any, and will do so in accordance with the campaign, so it doesn't feel tacked on. The sort of things I'm thinking of would be permanent (or possibly reversible through a side quest) effects, such as a curse that leaves a scar that cannot be removed or baldness for superficial things, and for more serious consequences a sentient pendant that psychically bonds to the wearer and gives them information/power, but at the cost of causing evil, such as causing pain to those surrounding them.
I thought about asking the players' opinion, but I am worried I shall not be able to explain what I mean without giving examples, that may ultimately lead to them expecting these events to occur, and so preparing for them.
How would you go about doing such events?

Another issue I have is one of the players has showed interest in playing A secretive Changeling that the rest of the party believes to be a member of the race they predominantly portray. I think this is an excellent idea, but I am unsure about how to keep the rest of the party unaware, should we tell the rest of the players OOC that he is playing a changeling disguised as a XXX, or should it be a surprise to the players as well. If so how would be the best way to manage this?

I may have a few more questions, but I shall have to try to reword them to make them understandable,
Thanks in advance for any help you may provide.
-Empirespy

[LimeSkeleton]

Be very wary of messing with player's characters without their direct approval. It can make people feel like they're losing control of the one thing they should have control with and could make them stop wanting to play if not handled properly. Definitely discuss it with them before doing it. Also, consider how well you know your group? Is it a high-trust situation? If not, I'd say save it for later on, when everybody has gotten comfortable and you've discussed it and received consent.

[Gavran]

I have to agree, PCs are the one thing you don't control as a DM. Don't force things on them. Discuss possibilities with them, sure, but don't force things.

I wouldn't tell the group. Changeling Becomers are cool and they wouldn't be able to figure it out unless they had a reason to be suspicious. Don't make any allowances for the mechanical differences though. E.g. if he uses changeling trick, the other players should be able to notice. If he's Becoming a construct, he still has to eat and they should notice. If he's Becoming an Eladrin he can't Trance and they should notice.

The party noticing isn't necessarily a bad thing, though. The resulting RP should be much richer if it's something the players are having fun figuring out.

[Tegu8788]

The closest you get to controlling the player is giving them a cursed item. And you make sure that they choose to pick it up. If you start playing around with their characters without their explicit permission, you will set the players against you. It will go from players and GM telling a story to GM telling a story versus the players.

[Alejandro]

What they said. Don't mess with the PCs, you have the rest of the world.

[tcrudisi]

+1 for what everyone else has said. But - that doesn't mean you can't give them an option.

You want one of them cursed? Well, after the witch lays the curse out there, take the player aside. Give them the option. Something like, "I think it would be interesting if this curse took effect. Here is what would happen to your character. If you decide to go with it, then I will give you ways to remove it so that its not permanent, unless you choose for it to be. What do you say?"

If they say no, then have them quickly narrate how they struggled with the curse momentarily but shrugged it off, similar to making a Will save, or the like. If they say yes, then you can tell them what is happening to their character and let them narrate that to the rest of the party.

Basically - it opens up a RP situation for the player. I'd be wary of a curse that hurts his allies, as the player is less likely to take it. But if it somehow challenges their character and makes for an interesting story? They might. It really depends on the player at that point.

[Barsoom]

+1 for what everyone else has said. But - that doesn't mean you can't give them an option.
This is not 4e, but you may find it relevant.

I was DMing a Paladin with some Demonic blood in her backstory - for fluff only, no mechanical effect (or so she thought). She started having those dreams where an unknown power was offering her all sorts of deals to subvert her paladin class features into a darker, twisted version. Found a dark tome which let her tap into the demonic side of her powers ...

Alas, the player (and the character) stood firm and didn't accept the "gifts".

[neonchameleon]

Hi, I'm new to the forums, though I've read the comics for a while now, and have being intermittently play for several years now, and I have a few questions on DMing, as this will be my second campaign I am running.

First off, its etiquette on altering Player Characters. Basically, I intend to implement some major challenges, to specific PCs, that could drastically alter their characters. I haven't decided on any, as I will only be implementing a few if any, and will do so in accordance with the campaign, so it doesn't feel tacked on. The sort of things I'm thinking of would be permanent (or possibly reversible through a side quest) effects, such as a curse that leaves a scar that cannot be removed or baldness for superficial things, and for more serious consequences a sentient pendant that psychically bonds to the wearer and gives them information/power, but at the cost of causing evil, such as causing pain to those surrounding them.
I thought about asking the players' opinion, but I am worried I shall not be able to explain what I mean without giving examples, that may ultimately lead to them expecting these events to occur, and so preparing for them.
How would you go about doing such events?

To chime in, without the consent of the players hell no to direct DM changes.

On the other hand what you can and should dangle in front of them is temptation. Give them the amulet that allows them stuff at the cost of taking corruption points. And then rolling on a table with the number of points they've taken added. (The maximum result for the first roll should still not produce a mutation). If the players knowingly take the bait with a decent idea of the consequences that will work well. Give them a choice.


Another issue I have is one of the players has showed interest in playing A secretive Changeling that the rest of the party believes to be a member of the race they predominantly portray. I think this is an excellent idea, but I am unsure about how to keep the rest of the party unaware, should we tell the rest of the players OOC that he is playing a changeling disguised as a XXX, or should it be a surprise to the players as well. If so how would be the best way to manage this?

Approve the player's idea and leave that part up to them.

[Ashdate]

First off, its etiquette on altering Player Characters. Basically, I intend to implement some major challenges, to specific PCs, that could drastically alter their characters.

I want to chime in with a solid "no". You should only alter a characters with their permission. If you want to introduce something like a curse, then you should ask your players if anyone would be interested in having one.


Another issue I have is one of the players has showed interest in playing A secretive Changeling that the rest of the party believes to be a member of the race they predominantly portray. I think this is an excellent idea, but I am unsure about how to keep the rest of the party unaware, should we tell the rest of the players OOC that he is playing a changeling disguised as a XXX, or should it be a surprise to the players as well. If so how would be the best way to manage this?

I would leave this up to the player to decide, but I would be willing to work with the player on this as a DM. Secrets can be fun to keep!

[Barsoom]

I want to chime in with a solid "no". You should only alter a characters with their permission. If you want to introduce something like a curse, then you should ask your players if anyone would be interested in having one. Eh, to me, that's going too far down the carebear route. You can introduce a curse, without asking for permission, as long as it:
- doesn't completely invalidate the character [a Wizard who loses the ability to cast spells is bad, a Wizard who, let's say, is afraid of water, could be made to work]
- doesn't remove player agency [a character who becomes bloodthirsty and is forced to charge into battle against everyone is not cool, a character who can resist the pull of battle at some cost might work]
- can be removed after a reasonable time [no one wants to be stuck with even a minor curse forever]

[Empirespy]

Thanks for all the responses.
I shall, by a firm consensus, not try to implement any of the possibly character altering things, at least not unless it seems appropriate, and with players consent, a little further down the line.

As for the changeling matter, the player said he wanted to head towards keeping the people out of the loop as well, and have them work it out themselves through the campaign, I will no doubt have to make sure that we work on the same page if this is the case. As far as letting the other people, in the party find out, if we do decide to go down the route of keeping them in the dark, what would be an approach to letting out mechanical information, that might hint to the fact he is a changeling, but not tell them outright. I mean, I assume he won't be using changeling disguise in front of the rest of party, unless out of necessity, but if he is posing as a human (as he has suggested, but not set upon), then how would one go about not letting on to the fact he has 'forgotten' his human defenses and the likes.

I should mention, we plan to start the campaign in a couple of months, so that character backstories are ready, and that I can set up a more personal campaign, so there is still lots of time to work out the best possible solutions for the situations.
Thanks again,
-Empirespy

[BlckDv]

To provide a comment that goes slightly against the grain, but agrees in spirit with most of the advice given:

I have on many occasions had great success with lasting negative consequences in my games, including 4e. The key to me is in the word consequences. Negative Impacts should always be a natural result of choices that are made, not just a beatstick of badness.

Players should be given a clear understanding what kinds of actions and choices in a game might have lasting consequences, but I find that in many cases it works well if they do not know ahead of time that this choice now will have this result now. Obviously trust is huge here. Players must trust that the outcomes are in the service of the best possible game and not a power trip of the GM.

Likewise different groups of players will feel differently. To one party, having a PC gain warts, go bald, or loose the family farm is an interesting story element. to another party those are concept breaking alterations that violate the agency of the player as a contributor to the game. You MUST find your balance, and stay aware that if your mix of players changes, this may also change.

ITEM #2:

Amusingly, I had this exact experience in my game and it worked out AWESOMELY. We had a Changling Paladin posing as a Shifter. The big twist was he was posing as another PC's Brother who had run away years ago, and the Changling had taken on his identity in a far off land after traveling with him for a time when he was killed in a fight.

The player had his usual options, but knew he had to keep his own disguise up, and RP his best to cover "family" ties. He cleverly avoided questions about the Racial powers, used his Changling ability to mimic the Shifting in visual aspect, etc. His Bluff was able to surpass all passive checks and no player ever asked for an active check.

Obviously, I knew the party involved would not view the eventual reveal that your brother isn't really your brother as a violation of player choice, with some other mixes of players, I would have made sure the player of the Sister was also Okay with it before the approval.

The one special bit of DM aid he got was that on two occasions when his PC slipped away and a "new NPC" talked with the party so he could trade information without appearing connected, I agreed to play him for the conversations based on notes he provided me.

[Gavran]

In light of the overwhelming reaction, I'd just like to clarify that such things do have their place and can certainly be cool. It's just that you're a new DM, your players are probably pretty new as well, and you likely don't have the kind of strong DM-player relationship where you can do things like that on your own. It's 100% okay to talk to your players about and see where they stand. There are groups that would love stuff like that without any warning whatsoever, even. It's something you need to be really cautious about, particularly in a new group. The phrase "player agency" has sprung up a few times and that's really the important aspect here - choice. It's okay to have a curse that they can avoid but might choose not to. It's okay to tempt them with power that comes at a price. And there's nothing wrong with being forthright with your players, either. You can absolutely have an OOC sidebar with them warning that there could be dire consequences for taking certain actions, and some people will still be interested/agreeable for the same reasons you think it's an interesting idea in the first place.

Regarding the Changeling, you've got quite a few options here. Firstly, the other players shouldn't see his character sheet. If that's too suspicious, then they should see a mock sheet as if he was human. All that stuff is meta information that PCs wouldn't know anyway, the best way to keep people from acting on meta information is to keep them from discovering it.

Second, there's a Changeling Racial feat that allows one to 'specialize' in imitating a specific race. Taking it bridges a fair amount of the differences between Changeling and Human.

Third, you could homebrew a Human variant that is more in line with Changelings and have him pretend to be of that variant. This would be effective as a bit of a red herring as well as allowing meta info to be more accessible.

I think the best solution is just to keep his meta details private, but it is unusual for a party to not share character sheets and such, so you may want to take some measures to disguise it. Just remember that your job is to prevent them from finding out via meta information, it's his job to keep them from finding out in any other way.

[Tegu8788]

If you want to curse them with an item that makes them hurt their friends, dangle a shiny babble before them. A relatively hard DC check will tell them it is capable of expelling large amounts of arcane energies. Blast 10, standard action, at-will, 1d4 per tier, +1 attack/+3 damage for each ally in the burst, that stacks with any striker features, -2 to next attack, grants CA save ends, necrotic damage, gain 2 THPs per tier for each target hit, 8 THPs per tier for any target killed, mechanically speaking.

What you don't tell them is that the attack targets creatures, not enemies. Then give minors high enough defenses or immunity to that damage. Sure, you can hit every enemy in most maps, but you also have to burn your allies in order to do so. They have the item now, but they have to choose to use it. You get to have them hurt their allies, but the player is in control. If you're really mean, have it suck out a surge per tier in every rest before which it hasn't been used.



Edit: Actually, while I just threw a bunch of stuff together, that sounds pretty cool. Could somebody with more DM knowledge (like anyone) check that for me to see balance?