Explanations? Don't hold your breath... [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

pclips

2006-12-08, 10:35 AM

Figured this needed its own thread...

Hey pclips (Elvis), why didn't you tell me where the "Key Lime Pie" reference originated?

Because of that golden rule of comedy: never explain. The work needs to stand on its own.

I admit I break that rule freely in PartiallyClips, but that's more to play to my own interest in the gag writing process. I keep my strip commentary hidden as a default. With Erfworld, I intend to explain as little as I possibly can.

As people have pointed out in these threads, I'm doing all kinds of humor, from highly subtle to completely gross. Some are direct allusions, some are oblique references, some are synthetic, some are foreshadowing, some are character-driven. Most are original to the comic, and a lot of those are completely out of left field. That's really all the explanation I can give you.

If I set the record straight about this joke or that, it's spoiling my own fun (and certainly spoiling the value of reader feedback). I'd much rather have readers explain jokes to each other. You're all doing a pretty good job of that, so far.

One thing I would like to say that will hopefully reassure people who aren't decided on Erfworld yet is this... I think of it primarily as a story, not a comedy. The jokes are more or less ornaments that hang on the tree of plot and character.

These six pages were meant to set the scene and give some basic background. The meat of the story lies ahead. It's kind of like how the opening scene to Star Wars is a chase and firefight which shows us a few main characters: Darth, Leia and the droids. But it doesn't try to tell everything and leaves other major characters (Luke, Kenobi, and Han & Chewie) their own scenes to be introduced in the future.

Erfworld will be a complete story wrapping up sometime in the Summer. Right now, with all of this analysis, it's like we stopped the movie after Leia is captured and said, "Okay! Focus group, what did everyone think?" I'm very comfortable with the fact that a lot of people don't know what to think yet. The best parts are yet to come.

TinSoldier

2006-12-08, 10:48 AM

I think of it primarily as a story, not a comedy. The jokes are more or less ornaments that hang on the tree of plot and character.That... was one of the most beautiful metaphors I have ever read.

My other favorite comics (Goblins, OotS) are really the same way.

Totally Guy

2006-12-08, 07:51 PM

Wrapping up in the Summer... 8 months tops, 32~ weeks, twice weekly, 64~ strips. Around about 70 pages?

That's good, it gives a clue to the story, closer to being a movie than being something like... um.. Lost. Which is also fine but all these stories these days tend to go on and on. I'll be happy to read it over that length of time.

javelin98

2006-12-11, 06:51 PM

Figured this needed its own thread...

Because of that golden rule of comedy: never explain. The work needs to stand on its own.

I admit I break that rule freely in PartiallyClips, but that's more to play to my own interest in the gag writing process. I keep my strip commentary hidden as a default. With Erfworld, I intend to explain as little as I possibly can.

As people have pointed out in these threads, I'm doing all kinds of humor, from highly subtle to completely gross. Some are direct allusions, some are oblique references, some are synthetic, some are foreshadowing, some are character-driven. Most are original to the comic, and a lot of those are completely out of left field. That's really all the explanation I can give you.

If I set the record straight about this joke or that, it's spoiling my own fun (and certainly spoiling the value of reader feedback). I'd much rather have readers explain jokes to each other. You're all doing a pretty good job of that, so far.

One thing I would like to say that will hopefully reassure people who aren't decided on Erfworld yet is this... I think of it primarily as a story, not a comedy. The jokes are more or less ornaments that hang on the tree of plot and character.

These six pages were meant to set the scene and give some basic background. The meat of the story lies ahead. It's kind of like how the opening scene to Star Wars is a chase and firefight which shows us a few main characters: Darth, Leia and the droids. But it doesn't try to tell everything and leaves other major characters (Luke, Kenobi, and Han & Chewie) their own scenes to be introduced in the future.

Erfworld will be a complete story wrapping up sometime in the Summer. Right now, with all of this analysis, it's like we stopped the movie after Leia is captured and said, "Okay! Focus group, what did everyone think?" I'm very comfortable with the fact that a lot of people don't know what to think yet. The best parts are yet to come.

Hmmm... well, I certainly respect your autonomy as an author. But while I can't name any golden rules of comedy, I would assume that there must be at least a silver rule or a bronze rule relating to not leaving your audience so far out in the dark that they can't relate to the material and thus can't find any humor in it (or even relevance, clarity, or comprehension). A number of my co-workers and friends and I are regular OOTS fans (as well as Penny Arcade, VG Cats, PartiallyClips, Full Frontal Nerdity, etc.), and we've been arguing about Erfworld for a few days. The beauty of your humor in PartiallyClips is that, in the last frame, people can say "Whoa! I didn't see that coming!" Whereas in Erfworld, we see something coming, we watch it going, and no one can agree on what it meant, where it came from, or even if it was funny or not.

So... is it a political barb aimed at George W. Bush? Is it a comedy so subtle that most plebians won't get it? Is it performance art a la Andy Kaufman? Is it based on some kind of MMORPG, popular fiction, video game, or on nothing in particular?

Shyftir

2006-12-11, 07:01 PM

It's based on ridiculous! Stop overthinking everything! I totally get it even without catching all the (numerous) references. Keep up the random hillarity please!

WoDHells

2006-12-12, 03:30 PM

Indeed. Sometimes I avoid specific threads in the OotS forum for that reason, some guys tend to think about every tiny detail and to overlook the "big picture" (as they always say). I enjoy OotS very much, and I'm enjoying what little we have so far of Erfworld.

Keep up the good job, guys.
:biggrin:

IronSoldier820

2006-12-12, 11:18 PM

Nice, I'm very glad I saw this. I've been waiting around for something, I'm glad to know [or think :smallwink: ] I have something to wait for.

2006-12-15, 11:05 AM

It would save a lot of bother if this was stickied. Some of the DnD crowd that frequent these forums seem obsessed with the "system" that lies behind everything. Much of the humour in OotS is in poking fun at this system or rules and they must be feeling a bit lost right now.

pclips

2006-12-15, 11:14 AM

It would save a lot of bother if this was stickied.

Stickied by request.

cosine

2006-12-15, 04:59 PM

It's terribly obvious that just as OotS is based on Dungeons and Dragons, Erfworld is based on turn-based computer strategy games. As such, it makes jokes using cliches from such games ("turns", "moves", etc) in the same way OotS make jokes based on feats and checks.

Just as OotS plays host to a larger story and more interesting characters in the confines of its medium, so too does Erfworld. There are characters to care about and a story to learn about. If those are the things you like the most, you are going to have to give Erfworld some slack while waiting for more development.

Re: "gwiffons" and such. This is also terribly obvious. A griffon is a fierce beast combining the features of a lion and an eagle. A gwiffon is a "cute" version of the same thing, ending up looking like a kitty cat and a parakeet. Thus, this is a joke. Instead of drawing serious, deadly monsters, the artist draws cute animals. At this point, this may be just a joke. There is too little information right now to read more than that into it.

Re: "lookamancer" and such. Again, obvious. Many games feature various types of creatures or characters with abilities. If a unit is a "wizard" or "sorcerer" looking unit, but its name ends in "-mancer", then pretty soon the player begins to call all the other units with similar abilities or appearance other quick reference "-mancer" names. In "reality", perhaps a lookamancer would be called a Diviner, but instead the player just makes up a name based on the ability of the character or unit. The ability is "look" so the caster is "look - amancer"; a Diviner. Croak = death, necromancer. And so on. In other games, frex, we often say "nuke" instead of saying "Otiluke's Sphere of Fiery Death".

If you aren't very familiar with the world of turn based computer strategy games of the 80's and 90's perhaps a lot of this will seem a bit odd, but to the old school this should seem pretty normal.

PS - Ansom is a good guy, not a bad guy. He is concerned about Jillian, presumably because he is romantically attached to her. Jillian presents a tough exterior because she is a warrior - when confronted by her commanding warlord, she puts on a tough act as she wants to be taken seriously. In reality, she actually likes Ansom and would choose to be with him if she could just drop the facade.

Xaspian

2006-12-15, 07:17 PM

I agree that we shouldn't need to know everything. Let any mechanics that may or may not exist slowly ooze out of the comic as it progresses.

It might appear that Erfworld is a turn-based strategy, but don't let that constrict it. It should be, if it is indeed there, a part of the background of the world, and not necessarily necessary for the plot.

I think it honestly shouldn't be so much of a big deal. So why did I bother posting? I don't know.

~Xaspian

Sebastian Bux

2006-12-21, 11:15 AM

These six pages were meant to set the scene and give some basic background. The meat of the story lies ahead. It's kind of like how the opening scene to Star Wars is a chase and firefight which shows us a few main characters: Darth, Leia and the droids. But it doesn't try to tell everything and leaves other major characters (Luke, Kenobi, and Han & Chewie) their own scenes to be introduced in the future.

Okay, you're crazy, and I have to tell you that.

Please pick another movie that millions of people haven't seen to compare your comic to because "Star Wars a New Hope" Erfworld is not. They do more in the opening of SW then you have done in Erf.

And, no offense, but the fact you even have to explain any of your jokes is a failure in joke telling. Haven't you heard the saying, "If you have to explain it, it isn't funny"? This comic is in its infancy, it couldn't help to explain some things to people. Better yet, use the comic to explain some things.

I was just on the can and I got to thinking ... maybe you should consider longer pages per update. When the Giant needs to get more of a message then one page can tell he does a double or triple update. I think Erf could really benefit from more then less. It won't be long before people stop looking for new content on Tuesdays and Thursdays the way things are going.

Sebastian

Wallyz

2006-12-21, 11:52 AM

Of course, others have said-

The test of real literature is that it will bear repetition. We read over the same pages again and again, and always with fresh delight. ~Samual McChord Crothers

When you re-read a classic you do not see in the book more than you did before. You see more in you than there was before. ~Clifton Fadiman

Tiengra

2006-12-21, 11:55 AM

Okay, you're crazy, and I have to tell you that.

Please pick another movie that millions of people haven't seen to compare your comic to because "Star Wars a New Hope" Erfworld is not. They do more in the opening of SW then you have done in Erf.

And, no offense, but the fact you even have to explain any of your jokes is a failure in joke telling. Haven't you heard the saying, "If you have to explain it, it isn't funny"? This comic is in its infancy, it couldn't help to explain some things to people. Better yet, use the comic to explain some things.

I was just on the can and I got to thinking ... maybe you should consider longer pages per update. When the Giant needs to get more of a message then one page can tell he does a double or triple update. I think Erf could really benefit from more then less. It won't be long before people stop looking for new content on Tuesdays and Thursdays the way things are going.

Sebastian

I've been a long standing fan of OotS for some now, though I have never really felt the need to post anything (And I am lazy.) And I got to say, since I started reading Erf, I'm already a fan, and hooked to it. I was already anticipating the next installment this morning at work.

While the humor may escape some, I personally enjoy the somewhat subtle jokes mixed in with the actual storyline (Which, after ten pages, has barely even begun.) But then again, that humor may not be for everyone. If you simply do not enjoy subtle humor or storyline, or even perhaps this particular style, then there really is no reason to read it. Don't do something you don't enjoy, right?

And, in the other point of view, it's a bit harsh to claim that people will lose interest simply because you do not enjoy it. Just based on the majority of the positive vs negative responses, it seems a good number of people enjoy the work, and even if there is only one person, as long as the author enjoys writing the story (Which ultimately is why an author would write a free story/web comic), then all is well, is it not?

Last point of my rambling, there are many styles of jokes and stories. Sometimes, having a community explain jokes to one another is a way of building a community, as well as expanding one another's "comedic vocabulary" so to speak.

Just some thoughts that has been bugging me.

pclips

2006-12-21, 11:59 AM

Okay, you're crazy, and I have to tell you that.

Please pick another movie that millions of people haven't seen to compare your comic to because "Star Wars a New Hope" Erfworld is not. They do more in the opening of SW then you have done in Erf.

Not to counter the purpose of the thread, but that's just...illogical.

The opening of Star Wars is more or less meaningless without the context of the rest of the movie. If you had to leave the theatre after the first space battle and judge the whole movie from that, you'd think it was pretty pointless.

The point of the analogy is that you need the entire story, ultimately, to judge the opening. You've already decided Erfworld is no Star Wars. If you still hold that opinion in 9 months when the story has run its course and you have these pages completely in context, then I will accept it as perfectly valid.

I'm sorry you're not liking the jokes. I'll keep saying it as often as necessary: this is a story comic. The jokes are either inherent to the plot/characters/concept (which no reader can have a real picture of yet), or purely ornamental and throwaway. The story, once told, will stand on its own. Condemn it at the end if you still feel it's worthless, but I promise you there is much more to this tale and this universe than you have seen.

2006-12-21, 03:20 PM

If it's "based on ridiculous" rather than clever references &c, surely it should be consistently very obviously funny?

Jacklu

2006-12-21, 11:04 PM

I promise you there is much more to this tale and this universe than you have seen.

I should hope so, things would get pretty boring if what is shown in the first ten pages is the extent of their world. :biggrin:

Last_resort_33

2006-12-22, 07:19 AM

I will keep checking on it just to see, but I think that the star wars example is not so good. It's a different medium. When you are waiting for several minutes for the first part to make sense, then that's all well and good. if you have to wait a month or so then I'm not so sure.

I know that they ARE different comics, but if you look at the first few episodes of tOOtS then you will see that as well as being an introduction to further the plot (only subtly, but they do) they are also very good stand-alone strips.

AngryGreek

2006-12-22, 03:27 PM

The opening of Star Wars is more or less meaningless without the context of the rest of the movie. If you had to leave the theatre after the first space battle and judge the whole movie from that, you'd think it was pretty pointless.

But, if I had left the theatre after nothing but the opening scene, I would have been highly entertained. Big Battle, bad dude in a big black helmet, cutting edge special effects. It was something new, genuine, original, and ATTENTION GRABBING!

Erfworld is new, and genuine, and original. 3 out of 4 isn't so bad I guess.

Demented

2006-12-22, 04:48 PM

The music was quite marvelous as well.

Khantalas

2006-12-22, 04:50 PM

Erfworld is new, and genuine, and original, attention grabbing, and fun. 5 out of 4 isn't so bad I guess.

Bolded part mine. Just correct a few bits, and it's much better.

Gergle

2006-12-22, 10:14 PM

Please, please, don't explain it.

I for one want to learn about this world for myself, much like reading a fantasy novel. The best of the genre let you learn by context.

These forums tend to analyze the material to death, looking for the "meaning" behind the most obscure things.

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

Gergle

2006-12-23, 02:02 AM

And, no offense, but the fact you even have to explain any of your jokes is a failure in joke telling.
Sebastian

Or a statement about the person needing the explanation.

saile

2006-12-25, 08:42 PM

The opening of Star Wars is more or less meaningless without the context of the rest of the movie. If you had to leave the theatre after the first space battle and judge the whole movie from that, you'd think it was pretty pointless.

The point of the analogy is that you need the entire story, ultimately, to judge the opening. You've already decided Erfworld is no Star Wars. If you still hold that opinion in 9 months when the story has run its course and you have these pages completely in context, then I will accept it as perfectly valid.

I'm sorry you're not liking the jokes. I'll keep saying it as often as necessary: this is a story comic. The jokes are either inherent to the plot/characters/concept (which no reader can have a real picture of yet), or purely ornamental and throwaway. The story, once told, will stand on its own. Condemn it at the end if you still feel it's worthless, but I promise you there is much more to this tale and this universe than you have seen.

Well, that's all very well... BUT! As already (sort of) stated, you are contradicting the whole reason you brought up Star Wars in the first place: The first scene is a primer, a teaser - it may not be totally comprehensible on its own, but it should be entertaining on its own, or I will go somewhere else. In fact, the start should be one of the two or three most entertaining parts - there can be boring parts in the middle, that's ok - as long as the audience is hooked, they'll hang around for when the good bits come back.
And lets face it: We (the audience) may hope and want for this to turn out to be something good - but if it doesn't, oh, well! I wasted, what? Three hours tops? With rereading the strips twice and searching the forum for an explanation to the jokes I didn't get, but could see were there?
Rob Balder, on the other hand, really, really wants us to get hooked - you and your team have probably put, what, upwards of 50 hours into this? 100? of drawing, development, editing, negotiating with the Giant, etc. Plus, you most likely want to make some sort of profit out of this - an effort like this must require an investment of "yourself" - your time, your money, your relationships with family, co-workers, whathavewe. If no one likes the comics, that is a wasted effort.
And so, this:

And, no offense, but the fact you even have to explain any of your jokes is a failure in joke telling. Haven't you heard the saying, "If you have to explain it, it isn't funny"?

is, at least partially true, whereas this:

Or a statement about the person needing the explanation.

is false - or rather, the wrong way of looking at it. It may be, that my not getting the joke is caused by me not recognizing the reference to some particular... whatever. And that can be ok - I am wholly into "layers" of jokes. I don't get anywhere near all the OotS jokes, and yet I think most of them are hilarious. But if I don't find enough jokes I like, I don't come back. Therefore, if I don't get the "point" of something (funny jokes, exciting action, intriguing plot, gripping characters, or whatever else), either I'm not part of the intended audience, or the author failed in what he wanted to do!

Now, as for Erfworld...
On my first readthrough, I didn't quite get it. I was a bit put off by the strangeness of it, and I couldn't figure out what kind of a world it was. On my second read, though, it became clearer, and I was intrigued by this sort of weird universe - someone who succedes in portraying a giant teddybear as a soldier while retaining something resembling a straight face deserves respect. And i "totally dig" the idea of a story based comic - and I have high hopes for it.

However, this doesn't mean I wouldn't like some explaining. Not of the jokes, though (the community will likely take sufficiently care of this), but rather of the world. Of course a lot of it will be done through the comics. But in a 70-page comic, you just can't explain everything. And I want to know how the story of the Kingdom of Magic, what kinds of (whatever)-amancers there are, and how they came to be differentiated, and what kinds of creatures the two armies possess, and by the way, how was the world created, and where are those cool Elvis/titan-creatures, and....

...and I know you'll probably cover many of these questions in the comic. But, as I said, you can't possibly cover everything. And I am absolutely POSITIVE that you know the answers to many of these questions - if you didn't know about twice as much about the world as you are telling us, I don't think you could tell this story. And, being a "world-buff", my mouth just watering to get into the "meat" of this world, I would hate for these treasures to just waste away in your office, or your documents/Erfworld folder.
Not that you should reveal everything - that is the Golden Rule, never to tell everything, or the mystery's gone - but, maybe a juicy tidbit every week, or maybe every month... now that would really keep me salivating, if nothing

Whew, this turned into quite a (too) long rant - to sum up: I am cautiously optimistic about the comic, but I can't agree totally with some of the opinions expressed here - I think explaining has its place, and the need for/redundantness (isn't there a better word?) of explaining is not solely, and not neccecarily even mostly the fault of the reader.

/Saile - Whishing a good christmas to all, and to all a good night.

tgva8889

2006-12-26, 03:30 AM

I look at Erfworld like I look at OotS: It's a comic meant to be a story with humor in it. The humor is great. The story is greater.

Of course, with only 10 pages of story, it's slightly convoluted. We also know somewhat little about the characters, minus the blidingly obvious, like that Ansom has a thing for Jillian. I'm expecting this to change within the next few pages (like, 20 or so). We should at least begin to learn something about their history. However, this comic began the same way that OotS began: Throw us into the story, we'll begin to understand it as it goes on.

Really, I have a slight idea of what's going on. But I'll figure it out. When a comic first starts, to me, it doesn't make as much sense as when it has about 100 or so pages to it. At least, I can't figure it out.

Really, the joke references aren't necessary. Even though I don't know what the importance of it is, the key lime pie thing is just funny to me because it's just one of those random things you'd say when you die, like Leroy Jenkins.

IconoclastX

2006-12-26, 01:33 PM

If I had some chicken, like Leroy, I might feel better about this comic. ;)

I think I might just ignore it until there are 30 or so pages ready to go. At this point I'm just not enjoying it, but I can see potential if read in large enough chunks. Right now it seems like reading a paragraph 5 words at a time, whether those words make up complete sentences or not.

hyikim

2006-12-26, 02:58 PM

Because of that golden rule of comedy: never explain. The work needs to stand on its own.

are you saying your jokes are all inside jokes and all of us are on the outside?

I think you need to let us in on these so we will be able to get some of the jokes.

agentx42

2006-12-26, 03:01 PM

Hi there. Brand new to this forum. So far what I've read of Erfworld, gotta say my reaction is... meh. Don't dislike it, but not electrified either. So I think the only fair thing is to wait a month, let the strips build and maybe then it'll be easier to get a hold of where the creators are going with this. Up to this point it's been all over the place. Sorry, that's not meant as a criticism, just an observation. Like the artwork, though.

Wardog

2006-12-26, 09:52 PM

Hmmm...

Seems to be a lot of negativity.

I like Erf.

Its... wierd. Rather surreal.

Almost dream-like in the way that it is full of things that would be totaly absurd if you thought about them logicaly from a real-world perspective, but which to the characters are totally mundane.

Also the way it gradually dawned on me over the first few episodes that it was set in some sort of computer strategy game (in contrast to OOTS that makes it obvious from the start that it is inside a D&D game)

Just registering my support.

Azukar

2006-12-27, 09:52 PM

I'm going to agree with Wardog. I'm prepared to wait for the jokes and story to unfold; the only reason people are so able to be hypercritical of Erfworld is because it's updated so slowly. If Balder had started with a 30-page block, we'd have more to go on. But we don't. So any judgement, especially negative judgement, is literally baseless.

So, here's a challenge for some of you: treat Erfworld as a more thoughtful, intellectual comic. We know that Erfworld is different to OotS. If you're too impatient to wait a few more strips before you get some serious plot to digest, if you're that intent on punchline-per-page viewing, then stick with OotS. Nobody's judging you.

I'm prepared to wait. There's no rush.:smallsmile:

EntilZha

2006-12-28, 11:53 PM

To quote the avatar of the OP, "Thank you, thank you very much" for the explanation of the lack of explanation. :smallbiggrin:

Vorkuta

2007-01-04, 12:13 PM

Hey! Just found this thread, probably should have put my ramblings in here instead of the other... ah well.

First off, interesting idea, great artwork.

That out of the way, on to opinions and such...

I admit I'm a bit thrown by Erfworld... the more I read the more I understand, it's true, but I'm not sure the average reader is going to have that kind of patience, I dunno. The way I look at it, it's all about mathematics. Reader interest is directly tied to the way the material is presented but also to their knowledge (or lack thereof) of the subject material.

# Fans = Accessibility x Engaging Idea

Now say for tOoTs, you've got the idea modified by the size of the reader set that understands D&D, which is quite large. So you get something like:

# Fans = 5% (an imaginary number representing the populace that play/have played D&D) * 1 (Let's say Oots is a benchmark)

For Erfworld, it's a bit different. Many have proposed that it is loosely based on the Warlords franchise, which I admit it does appear to be similar to, in many ways. BUT, it also incorporates a lot of other unrelated material that is "niche" oriented in it's own right, giving something like:

# Fans = 1% (an imaginary number representing the populace that play/have played Warlords) * 20% (an imaginary number representing the populace that eat/have eaten peeps) * 2% (an imaginary number representing the populace that understand the "O RLY?" meme)... etc...

OK so that was a realllly convoluted way of saying your target is going to be a lot smaller than OOts. (Why do I keep bringing up Oots? Dunno, it's just on the same site, why not?) I think you anticipated that though. However, I think the compounded small-niche nature of the material included in Erfworld is causing MY particular problem...

Yeah, I've played Warlords. A bit. Yes, I've seen a peep, and I know what one is, (though I've never eaten one) however I'd never in a million years understand why it'd be in a comic based on a turn-based RPG. Now onto "O RLY?". Had no clue what that was, (I do only by reading this forum) but admit I'd also never link it to the primary material of Erfworld. So you can see the problem of small niches are compounded by including several in one piece of material... some people will understand one of them, a smaller group will understand more of the references, and a much smaller group will understand ALL of them simultaneously.

Again, I don't know if that's BAD per se, but I'd be worried if it were my comic and I planned to make money with it. If that's not your aim or if I've missed your intent completely, then please disregard.

Regardless, I think you've got a bright, original idea with great potential.

2007-01-04, 12:31 PM

Again, I don't know if that's BAD per se, but I'd be worried if it were my comic and I planned to make money with it.
The creators could always be following another business model - gather a small group of rabid fans and get them to sign over all their belongings to you. Mass suicides are optional though probably preferable to mass weddings.

Jorkens

2007-01-04, 01:49 PM

# Fans = 1% (an imaginary number representing the populace that play/have played Warlords) * 20% (an imaginary number representing the populace that eat/have eaten peeps) * 2% (an imaginary number representing the populace that understand the "O RLY?" meme)... etc...
I'd say that that's oversimplifying a bit - there are a lot of people around here who have said things like "I didn't get this reference or that reference but those bits killed me!" And I'm not sure that it's all that dependent on having played Warlords - having played anything with turn based combat (including Civ2 or whatever or even a big battle scene in a D&D campaign) should leave you able to follow what's going on. Actually, my girlfriend has never roleplayed[1] and loves OotS. Although it did help when I explained to her what a spot check was.

I guess the other question is whether Rob and Jamie sat down and thought "how are we going to customize our references in order to strategically maximize our market share to increase our returns in the lucrative geeky comic market", or whether they just set out to write something that they thought was interesting, entertaining and funny and that they hoped other people would enjoy too...

[1] no, not like that

Vorkuta

2007-01-04, 01:58 PM

I'd say that that's oversimplifying a bitWell, yes, that's what I was trying to do...

there are a lot of people around here who have said things like "I didn't get this reference or that reference but those bits killed me!"I understand that. I personally am in the "ok I didn't get but 25% of that, but some bits SEEMED kinda funny..." but it's cool...

And I'm not sure that it's all that dependent on having played Warlords - having played anything with turn based combat (including Civ2 or whatever or even a big battle scene in a D&D campaign) should leave you able to follow what's going on.I hear ya. I can follow it. Kinda. I was a big turn-based strat game player in HS. That part of the comiic I don't have to "work" to understand. It's only when you throw in the other references to largely unrelated items (ex: peeps, internet memes) that it throws me for a loop.

I guess the other question is whether Rob and Jamie sat down and thought "how are we going to customize our references in order to strategically maximize our market share to increase our returns in the lucrative geeky comic market", or whether they just set out to write something that they thought was interesting, entertaining and funny and that they hoped other people would enjoy too...Sure. And that's what I alluded to. I can't say I know their intentions were for the market of Erfworld. If it's the niche they've apparently hit, then more power to them, I say. I have a suspicion they were hoping for a bit wider audience though, but I could be wrong.

It all comes down to the basic issue of "accessibility". Erfworld is not easily accessible to me, and I really don't think I'm a complete moron. :smallbiggrin: But that depends who you ask.

[1] no, not like thatHey don't knock it... uhm... hrm... :smalleek:

pclips

2007-01-04, 02:12 PM

Vorkuta

2007-01-04, 02:57 PM

He told me something about writing which I will never forget. He said, "Tell a good story, and all is forgiven."Well, I'm willing to hang with Erfworld a bit longer to find out. I may grumble a bit at times, though. The story feels a bit disjointed for me at the moment (after 14 episodes) but I think overall it's got promise, assuming I don't have to work TOO hard. You definitely have some die-hard fans already though, it appears.

Eldhrin

2007-01-04, 03:27 PM

For those comparing the start of Erfworld to the start of OOTS, remember this: OOTS (according to the commentary by Rich in the books) wasn't originally intended to have much of a storyline. It was just a bunch of jokes about D&D set in a generic everydungeon with a dysfunctional party of adventurers. That, of course, changed rather rapidly, hence the need for Elan to Summon Plot Exposition.

Erfworld is different. Rich said when it was announced that it would be written in a different style. It's like getting a graphic novel a page at a time, rather than a joke-a-week comic as OOTS is more closely related to. The starts of the two are different because they're rather different in style.

Personally I think there's just the right amount of explanation at the moment. I'm sure that more information will come to light in a bit, but I'm already hooked. At the moment I see no reason why the necessary backstory wouldn't be provided as part of the narrative at such time as it might be needed. We'll soon start to get the hang of what people can do and some more of the rules that this world works by.

I'm actually rather looking forward to the end. Why? Because I can already feel myself holding the printed complete Erfworld: The Battle for Gobwin Nob in my hands, and it's good.

Oh yes, it's very good.

chionophile

2007-01-05, 12:25 AM

At a science fiction convention in 1990, I was fortunate enough to meet a boyhood hero: Roger Zelazny. He had been my favorite author since 6th grade. He won multiple Hugos and Nebulas, and wrote my favorite Fantasy series of all time: The Chronicles of Amber. It was my only chance to meet him; he died of cancer in 1995.

He told me something about writing which I will never forget. He said, "Tell a good story, and all is forgiven."

You are a fan of and met Roger Zelazny? That's ridiculously cool! If you bring in any inspiration from Zelazny or writers like him, this will be an even awesomer (yes, that's not a word) strip than it is already!

p.s. The Amber chronicles are one of my favorites too. Lord of Light is another.

Mr Teufel

2007-01-05, 09:30 AM

It is trying my patience a little, but not as much, say, as Alpha Shade. And I'm beginning to wonder if the guy in page 14 is dreaming TBfGK, hence the name-checking of various memes/games/foods whatever.

Hangin' in there, and hoping for the best.

Darth Paradox

2007-01-05, 12:43 PM

H
# Fans = 1% (an imaginary number representing the populace that play/have played Warlords) * 20% (an imaginary number representing the populace that eat/have eaten peeps) * 2% (an imaginary number representing the populace that understand the "O RLY?" meme)... etc...

This math assumes that you have to understand all the references in order to enjoy the comic (or even be a member of the target audience).

Well. I've never played Warlords, and I despise Peeps (though I am aware of their existence, just like most people). But I'm digging the comic.

There are references from all over the place here. Generally multiple ones in a single page. You don't need to get them all to enjoy the comic.

Sir_Faust

2007-01-05, 01:42 PM

i agree with pclips.

Wardog

2007-01-05, 03:02 PM

You dont even have to have played turn-based strategy games to get some of the jokes - RTS games can point the way just as well. (The original Command and Conquer demonstrated very effectively how one minor unit can not just mean the difference between a minor defeat and a minor victory, but even major defeats/victories.

And seeing that this is a web comic, I would imagine many of the readers would either be familiar with, or at least know of Real Time/ Turn Based strategy games, assorted internet memes, etc, and many of the other things refered to.

And for those they don't get, the internet does allow access to a lot of information.

Coincidently, I only found out about ORLY? a few weeks ago. (Googling for "Chuck Norris Facts" > Wikipedia article on the CNF meme > link to Wikipedia article on Internet memes > article about ORLY?

And right before posting this, I found out what a Peep is.

Remember: Wikipedia is your friend :)

Besides, you don't need to instantly get every joke to find the comic funny overall.

Azukar

2007-01-06, 05:46 AM

Besides, you don't need to instantly get every joke to find the comic funny overall.

Agreed.

Chionophile: you didn't steal my Snow Golem concept for your avatar, now did you? :smalltongue:

Tnetalque

2007-01-06, 07:04 PM

There really seems to be a well-planned story working behind this comic, I can't wait 'till the next release.

chionophile

2007-01-06, 08:12 PM

Agreed.

Chionophile: you didn't steal my Snow Golem concept for your avatar, now did you? :smalltongue:

haha, no, I've had this avatar since I joined the forums. I just like snow, so one of my friends made it for me.

mhoram

2007-01-12, 02:43 PM

Besides, you don't need to instantly get every joke to find the comic funny overall.

Certainly, I don't.

I didn't know about the ORLY? meme, but I looked it up and was amused.
I enjoyed the gradual dawning realization that the Gwiffon was a Peep. It was kind of disturbing, but I LIKE disturbing. Similarly, trying to figure out the nuances of the world has been an interesting challenge.

I hope we get more political exposition about the sides and agendas of the war, but I'm sure that Protagonist's...er Parson's arrival will be an excellent occasion for this.

I have some thoughts and opinions about the quality, civility, and maturity of some of the people slamming the comic here, but I don't have the time to scrutinize the posting guidelines to know how to parse them in a manner that would pass muster. Suffice to say, if the new comic were HAMSTARD it wouldn't deserve the level of hostility and venom it's getting at such an early stage of it's release.

Edit: Indirect criticism of people whose lack of civility really ticks me off voluntarily removed.

foil_fedora

2007-01-18, 12:15 PM

I'm amazed how many people take the time to write long, detailed posts about how they don't get the jokes, so the strip is bad... but they keep coming back to read more of the "bad, I don't get it" strip and post more complaints.

Strange behavior.

I don't always get the references, and that is good. Wikipedia is indeed my friend, I have now grokked the fullness of ORLY?, and know the great debt I owe to Jack Scruby; so I am not only entertained, but educated as well.

Then again, I may just have an affinity for material that makes me think... I've been a huge Roger Zelazny fan for years, ever since I read "Lord of Light"... twice. The beginning was strange and obscure on the first reading, but all became became crystal clear once the backstory was revealed. The novel is a masterwork, mostly *because* the beginning is so obscure.

I look forward to re-reading Erfworld from the beginning, once I've learned the fate of Gobwin Knob. No doubt much that is now obscure will be clear to me then.

Great story so far, don't you dare dumb it down!

Vonriel

2007-01-18, 05:20 PM

Personally, I like the strip. It's a new take on an old story, if you will. The setting is great, I've always loved turn-based strategies whether or not they tended to be really easy. The fact that the characters within the setting know where they are adds to the humor.

This strip isn't about subtlety, it isn't about symbolism, it doesn't possess layers upon layers of hidden meanings. Perhaps the titans at the beginning appeared like Elvis precisely because Elvis could have been called a music titan during his day. Maybe the creator chose a peep as a gwiffon because the idea of a peep eating a troll is just funny. I mean, seriously, picture it: a marshmallow bird opening up its maw and swallowing a troll. It's possible that he chose orlies because he thought it would be funny to have them eaten by a dwagon. Am I saying these elements of story telling don't exist? No. But not everything you see/read about this strip is going to possess them. Rich wasn't being facetious when he said "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." It's true here: Stop reading so deeply into this comic.

You - those who don't like it - assume that the author is making jokes that are too far above (or perhaps below) you for you to find them funny. The fact of the matter is, you've ruined the jokes for yourself by thinking this comic is about the jokes. If I could think of another webcomic to compare this to, I would, but I can't, so I have to allude to a book I imagine most people here have read. You can't pick up a book like Servant of the Shard, by R.A. Salvatore, expecting the book to make you laugh uproariously at every turn of the page. It's just not how the book is written. The same can be said of Erfworld. It's being written as a story, a narrative, and like most stories, there are humorous situations involved within, because any story that has no humor in it is too boring and dull for anyone to want to continue reading it. And no, the strip isn't jumping around. There has only been one jump, and it was to explain who the summoned general was, and where he came from. This was a necessary jump, otherwise you would've complained about 'where did this fat guy come from? and why was he chosen as their general instead of George Patton?'

This community is judging this strip based on what they've seen of OoTS, it's rather obvious. Even when told "This strip is nothing like OoTS. There is no reason to compare them, and if you do I will personally come to your house and beat you senseless with a brick stick." you still don't listen. The almighty himself could come down, smack you upside the head, and say "DO NOT COMPARE THIS COMIC TO OOTS." and you still wouldn't listen. So no, I have no hopes of changing the community's view at large with what I'm saying. I just hope to convince however many of you who are doing this to step back and say "Hey, y'know, maybe I should be looking at this from a different perspective." It seems like you're ready to hang the captain two days after setting out to sea because a wave happened to drench you. Oh, and one last thing. I assume those of you who read PvP are familiar with his link to the "Death of Politeness" article he posted, so you would be able to recognize that those of you who post against this follow the same methods of negative feedback that the author of that article was talking about. Congratulations, you're contributing! :smallannoyed:

ChimericPhase

2007-01-21, 07:28 AM

I find it interesting so many readers complain about the various reasons they dislike this comic, yet they always return for the abuse. Masochistic readers? Didn't think it was possible.

Erfworld is a strange comic. It's stranger than any other webcomic I have ever read (and I read alot of them).

And I love every pixel of it.

It's so surreal, and it forces me to stop and think about things differently, which is great. A webcomic that challenges me to think about it in ways no other webcomic ever has before!

Erfworld doesn't hold my hand, doesn't baby me through the explainations, doesn't cater to the lowest common denominator in the attempt to reach as many as possible. In other words, it doesn't treat me stupid. I like that.

It does read alot like a graphic novel, instead of a mere comic. I don't mind waiting for each page, its worth the wait. I have plenty of things to do to fill my time while I wait.

But here's what I have to say:

If you like the plot, love it for the plot. It's not really that hard to glaze over the jokes if you don't get them. You don't have to 'get' the joke to understand the story. Its not hard to tell Orlies are the avian looking creatures attacking the lizardy looking creatures. It's basic reading comprehension. Don't believe me? Pick up any Dr. Seuss book and read it and tell me you can't at least basically understand the premise of the book's story.

If you like the jokes, like the jokes. Simple as that. This comic seems to have enough that even if you're not following the plot, something funny will crop up every other comic or so.

If you like the plot, and the jokes are funny. Then you belong here.

If you can't or won't like the plot and/or the jokes, then Erfworld probably isn't for you. Be nice, be mature about it, and move on to something that is fulfilling and entertaining for you, instead of holding yourself back on something you obviously don't enjoy.

Maurog

2007-01-21, 09:17 AM

Stranger than any other webcomic? Not even close.
Flatwood is surreal, Erfworld is just a bit on the wacky side...

ChimericPhase

2007-01-21, 09:02 PM

Stranger than any other webcomic? Not even close.
Flatwood is surreal, Erfworld is just a bit on the wacky side...

The qualifier is in my statement.

It's stranger than any other webcomic I have ever read (and I read alot of them).

I am allowed to make opinions based on my experiences, which are not necissarily the same as anyone else's. Obviously my list of webcomics, comics, and graphic novels does not include the same ones as yours.

However, my advice is still fairly sound. Whether Erfworld is strange, wacky, mildly amusing, or as boring as grits n' butter... Unless you are obligated by some reckoning unknown to me, no one is forcing people to read this webcomic. If someone is not entertained, interested, or amused by the reading of Erfworld, then reading something else might be more fulfilling.

foil_fedora

2007-01-22, 11:45 AM

Whether Erfworld is strange, wacky, mildly amusing, or as boring as grits n' butter...

:furious: How *dare* you malign grits n' butter!!! :furious:

(Just trying to start a more pointless debate... Please, oh please, someone give me a detailed explanation about why I shoud not enjoy grits n' butter, and what a fool I am to enjoy the flavor!! Be sure to include lots of comparisons to bacon, as an obviously superior morning cholesterol delivery vehicle. Surely I can be saved from my grits-lovin' ways by a detailed description of their obvious shorcomings, and the natural superiority of bacon.) :biggrin:

:thog: Thog like bacon n' butter!!!

Hilary Moon Murphy

2007-01-23, 11:56 AM

I'm rather fond of grits myself, and I'm a California girl that got transplanted to the upper midwest... I believe in trying out all sorts of experiences, and like having my horizons expanded. That's one of the reasons why I am enjoying Erfworld so much.

Do I get all the jokes? Heck no. I don't play online roleplaying games at all and have only rarely wandered into chatrooms. That said... The plot is cool, and it is interesting figuring out the pieces of the puzzle.

Now... Let's go back to that interesting issue of accessibility. Erfworld was weird, original and funny before Parson Gotti's arrival with a giant "PLOT!" eruption but it was not that accessible. All of a sudden, I've started seeing far more posts from people who are saying, "Oh! I get it now! I'm hooked!"

One could argue that Parson's arrival is the least original thing that has happened so far in the strip. It is a very old plot device to have someone from the real world enter a fictional one. So why are we so excited that this has happened?

One word: accessibility.

Parson provides a point of view that exists nowhere else in the strip. Through him, we can start to understand some of Erfworld's weirdness. It is also comforting to have a familiar plot trope within this very strange setting. Parson anchors us, and gives us a place to start exploring this very weird world.

(I also like that Parson is bright. I'm a sucker for men who are quick on the uptake.)

I think that the other reason that Parson's arrival excites us so much is that it brings in an element to the plotline of redemption and second chances. Up to this point, Parson has been an outcast, unable to connect to the world in which he lived. Outside of his gaming hobby, most people would consider him a loser. But he's been given a fresh start in a world that can use his talents, and that is a very attractive possibility. It's something we all want, which helps with our ability to connect to the strip.

In other words, I'm digging it.

Long live Erfworld!

Hmm

PolkaBear

2007-01-23, 02:41 PM

Not a rant: just personal reflection.

*snip*
One could argue that Parson's arrival is the least original thing that has happened so far in the strip. It is a very old plot device to have someone from the real world enter a fictional one. So why are we so excited that this has happened?

One word: accessibility.

Parson provides a point of view that exists nowhere else in the strip.
*snip*
Excellent point. I hadn't thought of that before, but it rings true.

Personally, it was the lack of explanation that hooked me. Here I found a visually beautiful comic with a character that seemed just out of reach of my comprehension. Enter curiousity. I thought, "A puzzle! Now I need to read further just to understand what's going on."

There's enough in the first dozen pages--with its odd combination of familiarity-turned-on-its-head and an actual story--to give me hope of finally understanding it. It's neither opaque nor boilerplate, so neither despair nor boredom set in. All the rest adds to the sense of the wonder and discovery.

So leave the "walkthroughs and cheat codes" for somebody else: I'm enjoying the route of gradual enlightenment.

EDIT: And the latest page (20) is laugh-out-loud hilarious!

Delfia

2007-01-26, 06:20 AM

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the character of Parson (so far) brings to my mind a fellow named Cheraderine Zakalwe in a book called "The use of weapons" written by Iain M. Banks. Parson, like Zakalwe, appears to be a master tactician (a perfect soldier if you will), who only fluorishes in the environment of warfare. When trapped in an existence of peace, such a person dies a slow death.

So this should be very interesting. I loved that book, so far I have loved this comic.

Heliomance

2007-01-31, 02:34 PM

To all those people nattering and theorising about target audience, can I just say this:
I am English, have never heard of Peeps, have never played DnD, have never heard of Warlords, have never played any of these turn based games. And yet, I love both OoTS and Erfworld. And I get the majority of the jokes. (Admittedly, I haven't got a clue why the guy could taste key lime pie, but hey. I don't even know what key lime pie is.) You don't have to be a member of a demographic minority to get the comics.

Uzraid

2007-01-31, 02:54 PM

Key lime pie contains a custard made with key lime (Citrus aurantiifolia) juice and usually topped with meringue or other sweetened whipped cream.

Erk

2007-01-31, 05:16 PM

As far as I know the key lime pie was not a deep reference. Brain injury or manipulation can cause weird effects. One possible effect is the impression of smelling or tasting something that is not there. For example, when the brain sense centers were first mapped out it was by studying the damage to a woman's brain. This woman had had a stroke, and while having the stroke said she could smell burning toast.

Raveler1

2007-02-01, 05:15 PM

One could argue that Parson's arrival is the least original thing that has happened so far in the strip. It is a very old plot device to have someone from the real world enter a fictional one. So why are we so excited that this has happened?

One word: accessibility.

Parson provides a point of view that exists nowhere else in the strip. Through him, we can start to understand some of Erfworld's weirdness. It is also comforting to have a familiar plot trope within this very strange setting. Parson anchors us, and gives us a place to start exploring this very weird world.

I've heard this refered to as the "Han Solo" effect - that Han provides the nice accessable character that voices our problems with the world of Star Wars ("Hokey Religions", etc.). I see Parson in much the same way - he's the voice of the reader, in many ways - even if we aren't exactly like him, we can identify him with something we ARE familiar with.

pclips

2007-02-01, 05:31 PM

I've heard this refered to as the "Han Solo" effect - that Han provides the nice accessable character that voices our problems with the world of Star Wars ("Hokey Religions", etc.).

Not the "Jar Jar Binks" effect? :smallwink:

InfernalistGame

2007-02-01, 05:31 PM

This is so wrong I had to create a account on here just to speak up. Gods.

PClips' point is, the jokes are good, if you don't get it, ask the other readers, they get it. Everyone was stuck on the key lime pie but those of us who get it, like Erk. Yes, that was the joke. Arrow in brain=funny sensory input. The point is valid, I've gotten every joke in here, either immediately, or with a little thought. Yes, I played Vandal Hearts and Final Fantasy Tactics, and all the other old games that inspired Erfworld, and that helps. If you don't get it, ask. Stop bitching at the writer for not doing it himself, it's not that the jokes are bad, it's just -you- don't get it.

EDIT: Though you should be beaten unmercifully for the Jar Jar reference. ;)

InfernalistGame

2007-02-01, 05:40 PM

And one more thing...stop complaining that he isn't explaining setting or plot more at this point. Gods, you're like my ex-girlfriend, giving me no end of headache through a movie because she doesn't get the big thing in the first ten minutes. Sit down, shut up, watch the whole thing, and get it yourself, and you'll enjoy it alot more. And don't be in a movie theater with me if Silent Hill 2 ever gets made...I'll just -snap-.

Azukar

2007-02-01, 05:51 PM

Hear hear. But if you snap during SH2, just kill them quietly so the rest of us can hear the movie, okay?

Darth Paradox

2007-02-01, 06:45 PM

Not the "Jar Jar Binks" effect? :smallwink:

I don't know what you're trying to imply about your audience, but I don't think I like it. :smallbiggrin:

h3rne

2007-02-01, 09:08 PM

Proud to be an ErfWorld Idiot. Anyone already riled about my l33t u/n please stop reading now - I've been judged already and you can't/won't hear me, so let me not waste any more of your time...

Anyone left, then Hi! Maybe it'd help to know I only learnt the word l33t this evening on the O RLY? thread, because I thought it would be fun to understand why this got people so het up (I had to look up P3wned, but worked out OMGWTFBBQ on my own and laughed like a drain). The u/n has a long (but boring) history. Think of me as suffering from u/nsclerosis if that helps.

Reading the forums has been a real education in the depth of the strip and/or the effect of over analysis. I love the fact that it's straight out of left field, but has it's own quirky self-consistency.

I'm not sure it matters much if you don't get _all_ the jokes. I puzzled for hours over the FREE-DEEP thing, but in the end I'm not sure how much difference it made that I thought perhaps it was Ansom's bed-springs (the stopping one of those "Can you hear someone moving outside?" moments). Once I saw the clarification from Pclips, it was just different, that's all.

I love the pop culture references because, being so out of touch, I know there's going to be many more I miss than get, but coupled with the forums it adds something that no other strip I read has. Replayability. Read it. Read a thread and discover something you missed. Re-read it. Repeat lots.

The TRON reference was brilliant. The "Plot!" sound effect hilarious. Cloth Golems - genius. It reminds me of every wargame I ever played when we had to use utterly inappropriate objects as stand-ins.

I love the "cyberpunk" mode of non-explanation. We get dropped into a world with very different rules (literally!) and are expected to cope while little by little the pieces of the jigsaw are assembled. "Please engage brain - you _will_ be tested." Yum!

I'm completely hooked on both style and substance and will sign up for the dead-tree version the day pre-orders open. Meanwhile I look forward to every episode with anticipation.

Great sandbox guys. Many Many Thanks.

Simon*