Could anyone recommend some feats for a poor, two weapon fighter like me?

[frededd7]

I wish to have some feats that take advantage of the fact that I have two weapons, and (unwisely) have high charisma as a fighter. Also, if anyone could point me to a link that allows me to make attacks with both of my weapons against attack of opportunities would be greatly appreciated. Note that I might have done some poor building as I am relatively new at this game. Apologies if you fine the sheet painful.

Here is my basic character:

Stats:
Str:17
Dex:16
Con:15
Int:9
Wis:11
Car:14

Human Fighter
Lawful Evil

Current feats:
Two-Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Defense
Over-sized two Weapon Fighting
Ambidexterity
Weapon Specialization (Long sword)
Weapon Focus (Long sword)
Subduing strike
Combat Reflexes

Advice is greatly appreciated.
Any feats from the core rule book or official handbooks is also greatly appreciated.

Edit: Level 6, Build focused on two weapon fighting and eventually attacks of opportunity. If anyone could tell me some good ideas about what other things I should branch out too I will take that into consideration.

[Nettlekid]

Could you let us know your level and character build as well? You look like a Fighter from the sheer number of feats, but any PrC levels?

In any case, you might like this (http://dndtools.eu/feats/miniatures-handbook--75/double-hit--690/) to let you hit twice on AoOs, and this (http://dndtools.eu/feats/miniatures-handbook--75/goad--1238/) to try to take advantage of your Charisma.

EDIT: Oh, and of course, these (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/robilars-gambit--2465/) two (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/karmic-strike--1708/)feats synergize quite well with an AoO build (look up Jack B. Quick (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick)if you want to see an insane rapidstriker build) if you think you have enough either AC or HP to tank attacks that you'll draw.

[frededd7]

Oh, apologies for not including my level, it is currently at level 6.
My build is focused on two weapon fighting and will eventually include attacks of opportunity.

[Nettlekid]

So Fighter level 6? Hmm, well for one, you might want to take a Prestige Class which benefits TWF, like Tempest or Bloodclaw Master. But do take a look at that Jack B. Quick I linked you to, because that's a very effective Human Fighter 20.

[frededd7]

Unfortunately, my intelligence is not high enough for me to get combat expertise (a requirement for karmic strike, as well as improved trip).

Also, I am a bit skeptical of spending another feet on weapon focus for the axe.
My long term feet investment goal includes completely mastering the long sword.

As such, unfortunately I will probably never reach the same height of badass as Jack B. Quick

Do you have an more feats involving charisma that you could recommend?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

See if you can retrain your Weapon Focus/Specialization: Longsword to Morningstar, and work toward picking up the feat Three Mountains in CW. It's about the only reason to ever go Oversize TWF. With that you can pick up Melee Weapon Mastery in PH2 twice, for bludgeoning and piercing, each of which gives a +2 to attack and damage for a Morningstar.

If you're playing 3.5, Ambidexterity no longer exists as a feat, the benefits of it were worked into the 3.5 version of TWF.

[Waker]

Are you playing with an old 3rd ed manual? Ambidexterity isn't a feat anymore in 3.5.
See if your DM will allow you to take the Zhentarim Fighter acf frkm the Champions of Valor web download. It'll add some more options to use with your high charisma.

[eggynack]

Unfortunately, my intelligence is not high enough for me to get combat expertise (a requirement for karmic strike, as well as improved trip).

Also, I am a bit skeptical of spending another feet on weapon focus for the axe.
My long term feet investment goal includes completely mastering the long sword.

As such, unfortunately I will probably never reach the same height of badass as Jack B. Quick

Do you have an more feats involving charisma that you could recommend?
I don't think that karmic strike is strictly necessary for the build, thought it's pretty good. Thus, you can bypass the intelligence requirements with a two level barbarian dip. The relevant ACF here is wolf totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ), which gets you a prerequisiteless improved trip, but it's always worthwhile to pick up whirling frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ), and pounce from the spirit lion totem ACF in complete champion. It's a great dip, and your feat list isn't very good, so you have plenty of room. Generally, TWF is terrible in every possible way, though an AoO build might get you from terrible to just suboptimal.

[TypoNinja]

Something like Robilars gambit, combat reflexes, and double hit can be a powerful combo. Enemies attacking you Provoke, Combat Reflexes lets you take mulutiple attacks of oppourtunity a round, and double hit lets you add an off hand strike on an AoO.

Two Weapon Pounce is a good choice if you aren't going to be using action economy shenanigans to grant you the ability to full attack after moving.

Also, why do you have ambidexterity?

[frededd7]

Ah, ****.
Well at least my dm dosen't know. Edit: about ambidexterity (We mostly use the online articles for getting feats, and only own the basic books, which we borrow from each other).

I really do like it form completely nullifying the the penalties.

[Nettlekid]

Well, you've already met all but the BAB requirements of Robilar's Gambit, so that's a good feat to plan in.

Like I said above, Goad is a pretty good Cha-based feat because it'll make foes come to you to attack you. This is good because it'll trigger Robilar's Gambit when you have it, and you might be able to use it to get your opponent to move to you so you can full attack, as opposed to you moving which means you can't full attack.

Dual Strike (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/dual-strike--771/) is another good feat if you're more mobile, because it'll let you make a double attack even if you've moved (remember, normally you can't attack more than once even with TWF unless you take a Full Attack action).

As for other classes, I might suggest Tempest for lowering those penalties, or Dervish for mobility while still attacking lots of times (both in Complete Warrior). But your build isn't really great for those, already. Keep in mind, all the attacks in the world don't mean much if they don't do damage. TWF is used by Rogues a lot because they get Sneak Attack buffed up. Some Barbarians use TWF because they can charge, Pounce for the full attack, and Power Attack with Shock Trooper and Leap Attack to add dozens to damage to each strike. You don't have much of that.

[frededd7]

Oh I found a nice Feat (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/two-weapon-rend--3001/), that I believe could synchronize well with the attacks of opportunities with the double hits. What do you guys think about it?

Also, thanks for the help so far guys!

[Nettlekid]

The problem is that the damage is just way too low, since the earliest you can get it is 11th/12th level (depending on when you can actually get a feat). 1d6+1.5xStr means, for you with your Strength right now, a minimum of 5 extra damage and a max of 10. Assuming you increase your Str at 8th level and have a +6 item, that ups to 11 to 16. That's just...barely anything. A two-handed fighter using Power Attack could take a -8 to their attack rolls and get that with every strike, not just once. There are better uses for a feat than that.

[Waker]

Two Weapon Rend might be a little better if not for the restriction of once per enemy per round. 1d6+str 1 1/2 is really weak by level 11.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Ah, ****.
Well at least my dm dosen't know. Edit: about ambidexterity (We mostly use the online articles for getting feats, and only own the basic books, which we borrow from each other).

I really do like it form completely nullifying the the penalties.

FYI Wizards of the Coast released a ton of the core material in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/).

[frededd7]

Holy crap, there are feats better than a +5 bonus to damage?

That's pretty awesome.

Also, does anyone else here agree that I should get additional weapon focus into axes for the high sword low axe feat?

[Nettlekid]

Holy crap, there are feats better than a +5 bonus to damage?

That's pretty awesome.

Also, does anyone else here agree that I should get additional weapon focus into axes for the high sword low axe feat?

...Was that sarcastic, or have you just not been here very long? +5 to damage is nearly worthless, and certainly not worth one of your precious feats. Especially +5 to damage once a round and may not even happen! Let me give you a damage output comparison to put it into perspective. At level 11, when you could pick up Two Weapon Rend for that ~16 damage, you could have instead taken Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper. If you had one level in Barbarian for Pounce, you could charge a foe, take -11 to Armor Class, and (wielding a Greatsword two-handed) deal 2d6+1.5*Str+33 damage on each attack, attacking three times due to your BAB and Pounce. If you were an Orc or Half-Orc with Headlong Rush, you can double that for each hit. A Valorous weapon will multiply it again, totaling to (effectively, the statistics are a little different but it's basically negligible) 6d6+4.5*Str+66 damage at your regular BAB (no penalties due to Power Attack or TWF or anything like that, and in fact you get the bonus for charging) three times. With less feat investment than you've already put in.

And no, don't go for High Sword Low Axe. If you want to trip, there are better ways to do it, like with the Knockdown feat (if your DM allows it, being 3.0, and if they're okay with Ambidexterity then they ought to be okay with this.)

[frededd7]

I have not played that long.
First campaign, character, and forum post. Also note that my group has no experienced players. Howbout that?

[Nettlekid]

Ah, that'll do. Yeah, I gave an example of a much more optimized build, which I'm sure you don't want to get too into, but the point is, don't get excited over +5 damage. Feats are few and far between (less so for Fighters, but still), so use them to do things you don't have the ability to do otherwise. Like Robilar's Gambit, that gives you a way to attack many more times than normal.

Really, what do you want to do with the character? Hit tons of times? Do lots of damage? Hit many different enemies all surrounding you? What's your end goal?

[frededd7]

My current end goal is to be able to be able to hit tons of times while being surrounded by about 3 people while protecting my wizard.

Also, does this mean feats such as weapon specialization and weapon focus in its greater forms/ variants are trivial?

What are your thoughts on feats that improve critical capability?

[Waker]

Feats like Weapon Focus/Specialization are generally seen as subpar. Improved Critical is a decent feat. An ok feat to play the bodyguard is Stand Still, which forces a reflex save to stop enemies from moving by you.
Since you seem to want to be a protector you might look at the Devoted Defender Prc from Sword & Fist.

[Nettlekid]

Ah, okay. So, many hits are important, and you're tanking to protect your ally. Tell me, is this game already going on, or are you still building a character? Because Tome of Battle classes do what you want to do really well.

For the purpose of protecting, Goad is really quite good, because you could taunt your foe who's right next to you, move away (taking an AoO but lashing back with Robilar's Gambit) and make them chase you, away from your Wizard.

And yes, Weapon Focus/Specialization are really quite bad. Weapon Focus is only good for prereqs, because it's the prereq for a lot of feats or Prestige Classes. At like, level 1, they *might* make a difference. But you don't REALLY want them.

Improved Critical can be good or bad. Mainly, it's best on weapons like Scimitars and Rapiers with the 18-20 crit range, which then turns into a 15-20 crit range. To threaten a crit 25% of the time is quite sizable, especially if you have a way to make crits more useful than just extra damage. For example, the Stance Blood in the Water gives you +1 to attack and damage for every crit you get, resetting if a minute goes by without a crit. If you have a TWF build with Keen (or Improved Crit) Scimitars, you can get about +3 or +4 to hit and damage each turn, rising up and up and up until you get to like, +20 or more, depending on how long the battle is. Works best against tons of minions, and gets really cheap if you use Aptitude Weapons (an enhancement which lets you apply feats usually usable by only one kind of weapon to another type (so like, an Aptitude Longsword could be used instead of an Axe in High Sword Low Axe)) alongside Lightning Mace (a feat which gives you an extra attack with a mace if you threaten a critical hit). That is to say, if you use Keen Aptitude Scimitars with Lightning Mace, then every time you roll a 15 or higher, you get a free attack, and may gain an additional +1 to your attacks and damage. So, that's a case where Improved Critical works quite well. In your case, with the Longswords, I'd say don't go too deep into it.

EDIT: Also, I'm a bit surprised you haven't gone with Ranger. Rangers get the TWF tree for free (although usable only in light armor), good skills, much more useful class features (like an Animal Companion and Favored Enemy, and there's a thing you can do to get Favored Enemy: Arcanists, so you get the bonuses against all Arcane magic users) and an excellent spell Blade Storm which lets you attack all adjacent opponents once with each weapon you're holding.

[frededd7]

Unfortunately the game I am playing is already currently going on and I won't be able to change my character anytime soon.

Also, the main reason I decided not to go ranger was due to the fact that, they simply could not tank as well (due to the light armor restriction), and I thought that the amount of feats fighters get could almost give me the same effect of playing a ranger, but with better armor, and eventual ability to get other fighter feats I may someday need.

Note: THOUGHT

[Gavinfoxx]

You should read this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

and this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1109.0

As a way to show you what being a good tank with few books looks like, and what resources there are if you DO have few books.

Two weapon fighting is a profoundly subpar method of fighting in this game. The best way to fight is generally two handed reach weapon.

[frededd7]

Well Here is my current feats to get list, made from this post:
Goad (Any time)
Double hit (Any time)
Robilars gambit (level 12)
Stand still (any time)
Dual Strike
Power attack
Leap attack

Also I'm thinking about adding
Deft Opportunist.

Thoughts?

[Nettlekid]

Usually it's pretty good to use Fighter 2, for the bonus feats, with some other class as the real padding, usually taking only three more levels before you go into a Prestige Class.
The thing you'll soon find about AC is that an enemy's attack rolls increase a lot faster than your AC does. Think, how much has your AC changed in the last 6 levels? Maybe a point or two, if you upgraded to full plate somewhere? But you're probably at full plate already. That's +8 AC, with only a +1 Dex bonus. The next closest is a Breastplate which gives you +5 AC with +3 Dex, which is only one point less (since you have +3 Dex). Mithral full plate will give you your fullest payout, +8 AC with +3 Dex. You don't even have a shield, because you're TWF, though I see your TWD gives you a +1 Shield bonus. So your AC, barring other magic items (and assuming you have yet to buy Mithral full plate) is around 10+8+1+1, or 20? Around there? And that's probably where it's been for a while. At level 1, that's very high, since you with 16 Str and 1 BAB would only be able to hit that on a 16 or higher, very infrequently. But now, with 17 Str, a masterwork sword, and 6 BAB, you can hit it on 10 or higher. Half the time. And that's just going to get easier and easier, as your BAB rises. And you get more chances. And enemies usually have higher Str and BAB than you do, because that's what makes them a challenge. As a result...Your AC will become useless very soon. D&D combat is a game of offense. Hit them harder than they hit you, faster, repeatedly, until they don't hit you again. So, as a result, Ranger's light armor restriction (medium if you wear Mithral) isn't much of an issue at all.

[Waker]

Well Here is my current feats to get list, made from this post:
Goad (Any time)
Double hit (Any time)
Robilars gambit (level 12)
Stand still (any time)
Dual Strike
Power attack
Leap attack

Also I'm thinking about adding
Deft Opportunist.

Thoughts?
I'd say avoid Dual Strike. Power Attack should probably be your next feat, it is tremendously useful for improving your damage, even if it has less return then using a two-handed weapon.

[Nettlekid]

As for your feat list, don't take Power Attack and Leap Attack. You're missing two very important factors to make those worthwhile. The most important one is Shock Trooper, which lets you take the penalty to attack rolls you'd take from Power Attack to AC instead. You become easy to hit, but you don't lose your to-hit and you get the serious power boost to damage. If you don't divert your attack penalty, you'll miss EVERYTHING. You're also fighting with one hand on each weapon, but Power Attack's payout is much better when you use a two-handed weapon. Now, that Shock Trooper thing only works on a charge, which leads us to the other thing you're missing: Pounce, the ability to make a full attack on a charge. You charge them, and can make all your attacks instead of just one. That would be good even for you now, because it means you can move and still TWF, but it's great for a Shock Trooper because you only take the AC penalty once, but you get the damage boost to every attack. Now, the best way to get this is using a one-level dip into Barbarian, where you can trade the Fast Movement for Pounce using the Lion Spirit Totem. But Barbarian requires Chaotic, and you're Lawful, so you can't get it. :(

[frededd7]

Well thanks for the advice the both of you, but what is you reasoning behind removing dual strike? In my opinion the ability to attack twice as a standard action is extremely beneficial.

Also, is there anything that I have missed? And thoughts on deft opportunist please.

Melee weapon mastery thoughts?

Should I somehow change my alignment from lawful evil? (to chaotic evil)
I do like selling slaves and robbing houses of the people I dislike though.

[Nettlekid]

Hmm, I'm not sure about Dual Strike. It's a bit iffy, but your build certainly isn't optimized as is, so it might not be too bad in comparison. If you think you're going to want to move and attack, get it. If you plan to make foes come to you and full attack them, don't get it.

Deft Opportunist is still too little payout for the cost of a feat. +4 to hit on AoOs? Just work on getting your "to hit" as high as you can get it normally, regardless of it being an AoO or not. It's not like it'd hurt you, it's just nothing special at all, and feats are special.

[frededd7]

Oh sorry, I just recently added this in an edit, so you might not have seen it.

Melee weapon mastery thoughts?

Should I somehow change my alignment from lawful evil? (to chaotic evil)
I do like selling slaves and robbing houses of the people I dislike though.

Also, can you sell organs in dungeons and dragons?

[Nettlekid]

Nooooooooooooooo for Melee Weapon Mastery. You'll have spent three feats to get a total of +3 on attack and +4 on damage rolls. It's just not worth it at all.

And if you go Chaotic Evil, you'll be able to take levels in Barbarian, which would give you Pounce, which you could use to charge and do all your attacks at the end of the charge. That's very good, but I wouldn't want you to change your character idea just for the sake of making him stronger.

[frededd7]

Also, is cleave in any way useful to a two weapon fighter?
or can be?

Thoughts on quick draw too please.

Might you point me into the direction of all the awesome feats that you speak of?

And daunting presence.

[Immabozo]

and (unwisely) have high charisma

Vow of Nudity (my homebrew, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276008))

But if you rolled your stats, I'd say you had decent stat assignment.

Try going for a crit build. Longsword crits on a 19-20 for a x2. If your DM lets you change it, go for a Kukuri (sp?), which crits on a 17-20 (IIRC) for a x2, keened for 13-20 x2 and then make sure you have fun things to do when you crit! Whirling Frenzy barbarian ACF gives you 1 more attack, so at level 7 you can have 3 attacks.

on second thought, not terribly effective. When you are doing what you are meant to (critting) it's still not good damage output (unless you can power attack, but then fairly useless if you can't confirm)

I had a TWF that got 24 vorporal attacks per round... but that was a druid.

Get sneak attack damage, that is a TWF best friend, I would think

[Nettlekid]

Cleave isn't half bad, but it's better on someone who doesn't get a ton of attacks and wants more rather than someone who gets lots. If you get 3 attacks and get one more with Cleave, it means a lot more than if you get 7 and then one more.

Why would you need Quick Draw? You're not throwing your weapons. Buy a Least Crystal of Return for each of your weapons for 300 gold each and it gives you Quick Draw for those weapons.

You've got a lot of the good feats on your list already. The TWF chain, of course, Stand Still is very good, Double Hit, Robilar's Gambit for whenever you get it, etc. For characters with class features other than just bonus feats there are a lot more feats which synergize with those features, which you don't have (like a Barbarian getting things to boost Rage, or a Ranger getting things which work with Favored Enemy). Martial Study and Martial Stance are excellent (from Tome of Battle, which is a little confusing for a new player but makes melee really fun and interesting), but it's usually better to just take a few levels in a ToB class rather than spend feats on their abilities.

[frededd7]

So should I or should I not invest into improved critical for longswords, someone tellllllllll meeeeeeeeeeee
and daunting presence.

Mainly wanted quickdraw paired with mercurial strike to look badass. Wanted to see if it could be actually legitimate. Failed.

[Nettlekid]

Vow of Nudity (my homebrew, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276008))

But if you rolled your stats, I'd say you had decent stat assignment.

Try going for a crit build. Longsword crits on a 19-20 for a x2. If your DM lets you change it, go for a Kukuri (sp?), which crits on a 17-20 (IIRC) for a x2, keened for 13-20 x2 and then make sure you have fun things to do when you crit! Whirling Frenzy barbarian ACF gives you 1 more attack, so at level 7 you can have 3 attacks.

on second thought, not terribly effective. When you are doing what you are meant to (critting) it's still not good damage output (unless you can power attack, but then fairly useless if you can't confirm)

I had a TWF that got 24 vorporal attacks per round... but that was a druid.

Get sneak attack damage, that is a TWF best friend, I would think

You don't recall correctly. Kukri is 18-20, keen for 15-20, and possibly 14-20 if your DM lets you make it serrated (but that would apply after other bonuses). But as you did say, the damage still wouldn't be that good.

He's right though, that Sneak Attack is what makes TWF builds shine (as I think I said a while ago.) When you have extra damage with each attack, then the number of attacks makes a big difference. If you can get +3d6 extra damage per attack, then making 4 attacks instead of 2 nets an extra 6d6, not to mention the actual benefits of making more attacks.

Really, your build isn't very well suited to TWF, unfortunately. Not with regard to feats taken, but the class levels themselves. Barbarian is really good for charging and Power Attacking, Rangers and Rogues (a combo of the two is often good) make good TWF. Rogue and Swashbuckler combos well, because the feat Daring Outlaw lets you stack levels for determining Sneak Attack. Unfortunately, the Fighter isn't that great of a fighter.

EDIT: I'd say don't take Improved Critical. If you regret it, Keen is cheap to get on your weapons, and works just as well. But you're not a crit-fisher build, so you're not focused on it anyway. Quick Draw and Mercurial Strike would, again, be a lot better on a Rogue who wants to catch enemies flat-footed. It does look cool, but it's almost meaningless to you. Especially since you'd have to re-sheathe your weapons to make it work again, which takes actions.

Daunting Presence is not good, because it wastes your precious standard action to do something with a pretty low save DC, and with a pretty low payout. Stacking Fear effects can be good if you can get people to Frightened or Panicked, but Daunting Presence specifically states that you can't. At least Goad is only a move action.

[frededd7]

Also, the next post you make will probably be the last one I respond to as I need
to go do something after this. Thanks for all the help!

[Immabozo]

So should I or should I not invest into improved critical for longswords, someone tellllllllll meeeeeeeeeeee
and daunting presence.

Mainly wanted quickdraw paired with mercurial strike to look badass. Wanted to see if it could be actually legitimate. Failed.

with a high number of hits, the odds of rolling a crit threat go up. The odds of rolling a crit threat go up drasically by doubling your crit range (roughly double the odds)

But dont waste a keat, get keen weapon, cost of a +1 weapon, same effects of the feat, for that specific bladed weapon (impact is the same thing, for blunt weapons).

Scabbard of keen weapons is a magic item that will keen the weapon sheathed inside it, for 1 encounter (I think) 3/day. Not sure it's legality though.

[frededd7]

Well that's it for this post. Thanks everyone for the tips and advice!

It was extremely helpful.

If I could +1 you I would. Good day and good night.

[Gavinfoxx]

You don't want keen on longswords.

Kukri, with something fun that happens when you crit, sure. But longswords?

[Immabozo]

You don't want keen on longswords.

Kukri, with something fun that happens when you crit, sure. But longswords?

Critting on a 17-20 for x2 is still good, worth keening your longsword. 15-20 on a Kukuri is not that much better than a longsword, and the 1D8 vs 1D4 regular damage wins in the favor of the long sword. Getting 7 attacks, 7D4 vs 7D8 is a big difference, plus extra dice for crit, again increases that difference.

EDIT: I wrote this really badly, reworked it to make sense

[Gavinfoxx]

Who cares about dice damage?

Seriously.

Damage comes from things other than the dice, at levels 6+.

Consider an item that had the following theoretical stats:

Martial Weapon, slashing&piercing, 1d2, 2 handed, reach and attack adjacent, trip

That would be a FANTASTIC weapon for most functional weapon builds (ie, people who know what the game rewards and doesn't reward). You know why? 2 handed, reach and attack adjacent, and being a trip weapon. The 1d2 doesn't matter, because you'd get strength *1.5 to damage anyway, and there's lots of ways to get extra damage to attacks, especially for slashing & piercing weapons, and doing two types of damage is great for overcoming DR... use power attack and charging and flat damage to bump the damage!

[Immabozo]

Who cares about dice damage?

Seriously.

Damage comes from things other than the dice, at levels 6+.

Consider an item that had the following theoretical stats:

Martial Weapon, slashing&piercing, 1d2, 2 handed, reach and attack adjacent, trip

That would be a FANTASTIC weapon for most functional weapon builds (ie, people who know what the game rewards and doesn't reward). You know why? 2 handed, reach and attack adjacent, and being a trip weapon. The 1d2 doesn't matter, because you'd get strength *1.5 to damage anyway, and there's lots of ways to get extra damage to attacks, especially for slashing & piercing weapons, and doing two types of damage is great for overcoming DR... use power attack and charging and flat damage to bump the damage!

Almost.

Average damage of 1D4 Kukuri, 2 and lets say +5 str damage
Average damage of 1D8 longsword, 4 +5
over 4 hits:
Kukuri: 28
longswod: 36

Kukri crit damage: 14
Longsword: 18

Average damage with Kukuri with 2 crits: 42
Average damage with Longsword with no crits: 36

It take 2 crits with the kukri to barely out damage the average damage of the longsword.

Yes, power attack completely changes that, but then you remember that a TWFer is not very good at confirming crits, with a (IIIRC) -2/-2/-7/-7/-12/-12/-17/-17 (before BAB and bonuses and all that) negatives on iteratives. Many attacks take HEAVY minuses.

Tom Cruise said it best :15 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emgktdhpsWo)

The game already doesn't reward TWFing at all, as a fighter. A rogue's (or similar) sneak attack. +4D6 per hit, per hit, across 6 hits, is a lot of damage.

[Harlot]

I am currently re-reading Order of the Stick, and reading your post I couldn't help thinking of this one: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html)

Now, you asked for some sort of use for your charisma, and this is it!

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dashing_Swordsman_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)

Ok, not all that serious, and you'd have to use a rapier and pretty much change everything BUT your stats, but just for fun and giggles maybe?

[Gavinfoxx]

(stuff)

My bit was primarily about two handing.

If someone wants to two weapon fight, they should do it with a two handed weapon and armor spikes!

[Saintheart]

In passing, it's not a feat, but given it's a high CHA fighter: the Sudden Stunning enhancement from DMG 2 could be right up your alley. Basically, for a flat sum (2,000 gp IIRC) you basically turn your weapon into a monk's Stunning Fist, with both the number of times you can use it and the DC of the save keying off your CHA score. If they're stunned, they can't attack you or the party wizard.

[Feint's End]

Look if you can get Complete Champion allowed.

Then definitely take one Level in Cleric (or Cloistered Cleric as it doesn't really matter). Take Animal Devotion (mainly for swift activation flight but a divine bonus of up to +8 to strength is pretty awesome too) and Travel Devotion. With your charisma you can use Travel Devotion 4 times a day and since you don't really have anything for your swift actions anyways this is a great way to spare your movement speed.

[Darrin]

I put together a handbook for this sort of thing: TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585)



Do you have an more feats involving charisma that you could recommend?

I'd try to do something with UMD, although getting that to work on a fighter chassis can be difficult.

Apprentice: Spellcaster (DMGII, to get UMD as a class skill)
Skill Knowledge (Unearthed Arcana, permanently add UMD as a class skill)
Shape Soulmeld: Mage's Spectacles (Magic of Incarnum, +4 bonus on UMD)
Shape Soulmeld: Elder Spirit (Dragon Magic, +4 bonus on UMD)

Or you can skip all that with Planar Touchstone -> Catalogues of Enlightenment -> Magic Domain (activate wands/scrolls as a wizard).



Goad (Any time)


I'm not sure this helps much with TWF.

As far as making use of your Charisma, well, Leadership springs to mind. Someone else mentioned Sudden Stunning from DMGII. Icy Surge, Lightning Surge, and Unholy Surge also use Charisma to determine #/day, and are just as cheap: +2000 GP each. For some reason, Brutal Surge, Caustic Surge, and Flaming Surge key off of Constitution... it wouldn't be bad picking those up, either.



Double hit (Any time)
Robilars gambit (level 12)


Good. I like these in a TWF build. I usually steer my TWF builds towards Double Hit as soon as I've got Improved TWF.



Stand still (any time)


No. Lockdown builds require reach, size increases, and some other stuff you don't really have room for. Skip it.



Dual Strike


No. If you really need to do this, then try Martial Study: Wolf Fang Strike or just pick up Travel Devotion.



Power attack
Leap attack


Ehhh... be careful here. Oversize TWF lets you PA with both your primary and offhand, but you don't get 2x multipliers unless you're doing something with Exotic Weapon Master or Revenant Blade.



Also I'm thinking about adding
Deft Opportunist.


If you've already got Double Hit and Robilar's Gambit, then yes, maybe consider this for your 15th or 18th level feat.

[Immabozo]

In passing, it's not a feat, but given it's a high CHA fighter: the Sudden Stunning enhancement from DMG 2 could be right up your alley. Basically, for a flat sum (2,000 gp IIRC) you basically turn your weapon into a monk's Stunning Fist, with both the number of times you can use it and the DC of the save keying off your CHA score. If they're stunned, they can't attack you or the party wizard.

I think this is the best suggestion so far in this thread, especially for a TWFer. 4 hits = making 4 DCs. Even if its only a fail on a 5 or less, on 4ish saves a turn, you are gonna roll a few loosers.

[frededd7]

Just checked up on the thread again, thanks for the help and advice!'

Gonna see if I can get the sudden stunning enchantment, and I might decide to multiclass into a 1 level cleric.
Because of Darrin and Feint's end, also decided on going with travel devotion.

[Gavinfoxx]

nd I might decide to multiclass into a 1 level cleric.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773

[Feint's End]

Just checked up on the thread again, thanks for the help and advice!'

Gonna see if I can get the sudden stunning enchantment, and I might decide to multiclass into a 1 level cleric.
Because of Darrin and Feint's end, also decided on going with travel devotion.

Aside from Knowledge Devotion you pretty much need the cleric dip to use Devotion feats effectively because you can't fuel them without it. You are a Fighter though so I'd recommend going with Cleric instead of Cloistered Cleric and taking Animal and Travel Devotion through swap.

Animal Devotion is awesome especially for Fightertypes ... I can't emphasize that enough. The ability to swift action fly? And non gear dependant? What you say I could have this at level 1? And if I don't need Flight because of Dungeoncrawling I can just get a divine/profane bonus to strength? Sign me in!

Travel Devotion is pretty mandatory on Fighting builds in my book but it really depends on your build (though yours needs it).

For spells take some useful buffs and utilitys like create water, mending and endure environment.

And all that for one Level Cleric.
Now you have 6 turning attempts ... see if you can get one nightstick (one should generally be fine) or take the feat for 4 extra turning attempts ... now you got 10/day. Use 4 to fuel travel devotion (3 total per day what should be sufficient ... adjust if more or less encounters) and 6 to fuel animal devotion (also 3 in total)

[Sith_Happens]

You could do a lot worse than than the Flay Foe feat in Champions of Ruin. After your first attack in a round hits, the rest do an extra 1d6. Not that impressive in the grand scheme of things, but might be enough for your purposes.

[eggynack]

You are a Fighter though so I'd recommend going with Cleric instead of Cloistered Cleric..
This doesn't seem like the right move. If they're playing with fractional BAB, there's a greater advantage to going regular cleric, but even then it's doubtful. As is, cloistered clerics lose one HP, which is tiny, average BAB, which is irrelevant on a one level dip, and proficiencies, which you're getting from fighter levels anyway. Thus, in exchange for a single HP, you get everything that cloistered cleric has to offer, which is substantial. You get four more skill points, knowledge devotion, the lore ability (which seems pointless on a dip, but still a more important factor than proficiencies and BAB), and a few utility spells. The main purpose is knowledge devotion, which acts as a way to bridge the attack bonus gap on a permanent basis. Cloistered clerics are neat like that.

[Gavinfoxx]

You are a Fighter though so I'd recommend going with Cleric instead of Cloistered Cleric and taking Animal and Travel Devotion through swap.

Strongly disagree, Knowledge Devotion + a rank in each of the creature knowledge + collector of stories skill trick = really really awesome.

[Immabozo]

+ collector of stories skill trick

can you explain this?

[eggynack]

can you explain this?
It's a skill trick from complete scoundrel, page 85. The prerequisite is 5 ranks in a knowledge skill, and the benefit is, "When you attempt a trained Knowledge check to identify a creature or to learn its special powers or vulnerabilities, you gain a +5 competence bonus on the check." This is obviously useful for knowledge devotion.

Edit: Just realized that I don't know if you know what skill tricks are. The only thing missing from my explanation is that it costs two skill points. Other than that, it's a pretty clear cut thing.

[Big Fau]

The 1d2 doesn't matter

It does if you want infinite damage.

[Waker]

Edit: Just realized that I don't know if you know what skill tricks are. The only thing missing from my explanation is that it costs two skill points. Other than that, it's a pretty clear cut thing.
Also you normally can only take one skill trick per level and you can have a maximum number of skill tricks equal to half your character level. Certain options exist that lift this cap though, like Prestige classes and feats. A skill trick can normally only be used once per encounter or once per minute for non-encounter situations.

[Malroth]

I second the reccomendation for either a 1 lv cloistered cleric dip for Knowledge and travel Devotion or a 4 level bard dip for Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the heart, Inspiration boost and Snowflake Wardance to add your CHA modifier to hit and 4d6 elemental damage to every strike you make . This also stacks well with Intimidate Boosting from Zentarim fighter. Just make sure you're taking a profession skill you can maintain all day without using your hands like (acting)

[Sith_Happens]

Personally, I recommend Perform(Inspirational Speech).

"The magma of our souls burns with a mighty flame!"
*everyone's weapons catch on fire*

[Immabozo]

It's a skill trick from complete scoundrel, page 85. The prerequisite is 5 ranks in a knowledge skill, and the benefit is, "When you attempt a trained Knowledge check to identify a creature or to learn its special powers or vulnerabilities, you gain a +5 competence bonus on the check." This is obviously useful for knowledge devotion.

Edit: Just realized that I don't know if you know what skill tricks are. The only thing missing from my explanation is that it costs two skill points. Other than that, it's a pretty clear cut thing.


Also you normally can only take one skill trick per level and you can have a maximum number of skill tricks equal to half your character level. Certain options exist that lift this cap though, like Prestige classes and feats. A skill trick can normally only be used once per encounter or once per minute for non-encounter situations.

Thanks guys, no, I did not know what skill tricks were. Thank you for explaining it!

[Feint's End]

I know that Cloistered Cleric is better because you basically just use 1 hp compared to the normal Cleric. If you can get it fluff wise go ahead.

Knowledge Devotion is probably a waste though it's for free I'll give you that. The problem is that you have to burn 7 skillpoints on it if you have all as classskills and you won't so instead it will be 4 (3 of the knowledges are cleric classskills and 1 you get from knowledge devotion) + 6 (3 are non of your classskills without dips) = 10 skillpoints. Since it equals in a constant boost to damage of +1 and potentially +2 it might be worth it though. Depends if you have the necessary skillpoints to spend.

[eggynack]

I know that Cloistered Cleric is better because you basically just use 1 hp compared to the normal Cleric. If you can get it fluff wise go ahead.

Knowledge Devotion is probably a waste though it's for free I'll give you that. The problem is that you have to burn 7 skillpoints on it if you have all as classskills and you won't so instead it will be 4 (3 of the knowledges are cleric classskills and 1 you get from knowledge devotion) + 6 (3 are non of your classskills without dips) = 10 skillpoints. Since it equals in a constant boost to damage of +1 and potentially +2 it might be worth it though. Depends if you have the necessary skillpoints to spend.
It looks like you miscounted on the knowledges. The relevant ones seem to be arcana, dungeoneering, local, nature, religion, and the planes. Thus, the total number of required skillpoints is eight. I think I counted all of them. Anyways, knowledge devotion is neat, because it bottoms out above weapon focus, and scales significantly higher. Also, even if you do nothing else, you're trading one HP for four skill points. That's a great trade right there.

[Gavinfoxx]

Also Psionics.

[eggynack]

Also Psionics.
Yeah, that's the seventh one. Still, you'd probably be safe emphasizing the more important knowledges. The initial cost is the same, because you're generally going to like being able to make an attempt against everything, but I'm probably not going to pump psionics to the maximum level. I suppose that common monsters depends on the campaign, so I'd make decisions like that on a case by case basis.

[Gavinfoxx]

Also remember some campaign settings have 50 different locals, so ask, 'Can I just take the version of local that gives me knowledge of humanoids and anatomy of them from all places, rather than true local info for a particular place'?

[Feint's End]

Also Psionics.

this

but it's campaign specific of course