Help with Gestalt?

[Demented Dragon]

So I'm kind of unclear on Gestalt and saving throws, having not used it a lot or anything and would appreciate some help.

Do I just add up each side's saving throws and select the best current one based on comparing each side separately?

Like... if I were a fighter 1/wizard 1/sorceror 1//cleric 3...

Would I use the 3 will save from the cleric the first and second levels then use the fighter/wizard/sorceror's 4 on the next level up as it surpasses the cleric's 3? There's no combination going on between, right? (Like I don't get 6 from the +2 on cleric the first level, the +2 on wizard the next, and the +2 on sorceror for the third)

Edit: This is not at all the plan, it's just an example of the bit I'm confused on

[Nettlekid]

I think you've got it right...or maybe not, I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Basically, don't look at it as a whole, look at it level by level. At level 1, the Cleric gets +2 Will, and the Fighter gets +0, so your Will is +2. At level 2, the Cleric gets +1 Will, and the Wizard gets +2, so you increase by +2, for a total of +4. At level 3, the Cleric gets +0 Will, and the Sorcerer gets +2, so you increase by +2, for a total of +6. Much like you would have if you did Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1 in a non-gestalt game.

EDIT: Actually, I see what you said, and no, what you said is not the case. You do get the +6.

[Demented Dragon]

I think you've got it right...or maybe not, I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Basically, don't look at it as a whole, look at it level by level. At level 1, the Cleric gets +2 Will, and the Fighter gets +0, so your Will is +2. At level 2, the Cleric gets +1 Will, and the Wizard gets +2, so you increase by +2, for a total of +4. At level 3, the Cleric gets +0 Will, and the Sorcerer gets +2, so you increase by +2, for a total of +6. Much like you would have if you did Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1 in a non-gestalt game.

Okay see, that was what I'd considered, but it makes for obscenely high saves at later levels if you put two classes with low saves together side by side, except you offset one of them by a single other level. Partial saves would take care of it, but the GM hasn't given an indication of that so I wasn't sure. Didn't want to show a sheet with insane saves in case I was wrong about that...

[Nettlekid]

Yep, you will have great saves. Multiclassing in general gives you good saves and bad BAB, and Gestalt gives you all of the good and none of the bad. Gestalt is powerful. What build are you looking at?

[Demented Dragon]

Yep, you will have great saves. Multiclassing in general gives you good saves and bad BAB, and Gestalt gives you all of the good and none of the bad. Gestalt is powerful. What build are you looking at?

All homebrew stuff in a game on these forums actually. Can link the classes if you're curious, but mostly have it settled. I just wanted to get my saves right XD

Edit: And thanks for the help! I'm still gonna check with the GM because it'll look ridiculous, but having someone confirm this one makes me feel less stupid for bothering to ask him.

[sonofzeal]

The sane way is just to add up the totals for each side, and take the higher.

F1/W1/S1 gives.... +2/+0/+4. C3 gives.... +3/+1/+3.

So your total is +3/+1/+4.

Easy enough.

[Evolved Shrimp]

The sane way is just to add up the totals for each side, and take the higher.

That might be the sane way, but it's not the way gestalt works. The rules are quite clear on this, as Nettlekid said: At each level, your character gains all features from both classes. Where they overlap (such as with saves), they don't stack; you take the better one.

This results in saves that are as high or higher as full BAB, which might well cause balance issues. Still, those are the rules from UA.

[Darth Stabber]

I started writing a gestalt handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239352) a while back, and while it isn't finished, it has a lot of answers and useful advice.

[Immabozo]

All homebrew stuff in a game on these forums actually. Can link the classes if you're curious, but mostly have it settled. I just wanted to get my saves right XD

Edit: And thanks for the help! I'm still gonna check with the GM because it'll look ridiculous, but having someone confirm this one makes me feel less stupid for bothering to ask him.

Checking out some of my homebrew feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276008) might give some fun! they aren't really good (for the most part) just fun!

You can look at Gestalt like this. You are making a custom class by combining all the best parts of 2 classes per level, into one.

I like War Hulk//something with full BAB for melee builds. +1 BAB, +2 str per level. At level 20, thats +20 BAB and another +10 str to hit, in addition to whatever your regular str was!

[Jack_Simth]

I think you've got it right...or maybe not, I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Basically, don't look at it as a whole, look at it level by level. At level 1, the Cleric gets +2 Will, and the Fighter gets +0, so your Will is +2. At level 2, the Cleric gets +1 Will, and the Wizard gets +2, so you increase by +2, for a total of +4. At level 3, the Cleric gets +0 Will, and the Sorcerer gets +2, so you increase by +2, for a total of +6. Much like you would have if you did Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1 in a non-gestalt game.

EDIT: Actually, I see what you said, and no, what you said is not the case. You do get the +6.
In general, most Gestalt games also use Fractional Saves and BAB (to prevent the Fighter-1/Wizard-19//Sorcerer-20 from having a BAB of +20, among other things). With fractional BAB and saves, and, say, a:

Sorcerer-2/Ranger-1//Cleric-3
You have:
1 level of full BAB (Ranger), two levels of medium BAB (Cleric), so your BAB is +2.5 (truncates to +2).
3 levels of good Fort (Cleric), so you have a +3 Fort save (2+ 3/2 = 3.5, truncates to 3).
1 level of good Reflex (Ranger, Bard), so you have a +3 Reflex save (2+1/2+2/3 = 3.166..., truncates to 3).
3 levels of good Will (Cleric), so you have a +3 Will save (2+ 3/2 = 3.5, truncates to 3).

[eggynack]

In general, most Gestalt games also use Fractional Saves and BAB (to prevent the Fighter-1/Wizard-19//Sorcerer-20 from having a BAB of +20, among other things). With fractional BAB and saves, and, say, a:

Sorcerer-2/Ranger-1//Cleric-3
You have:
1 level of full BAB (Ranger), two levels of medium BAB (Cleric), so your BAB is +2.5 (truncates to +2).
3 levels of good Fort (Cleric), so you have a +3 Fort save (2+ 3/2 = 3.5, truncates to 3).
1 level of good Reflex (Ranger, Bard), so you have a +3 Reflex save (2+1/2+2/3 = 3.166..., truncates to 3).
3 levels of good Will (Cleric), so you have a +3 Will save (2+ 3/2 = 3.5, truncates to 3).
Those saves are inaccurate. Fractional saves don't reduce your saves at all. For fortitude, on level one, you get +2.5 from cleric. At level two, that increases to +3, because that's how good saves progress. However, the first level of ranger gives you +2.5 again, thus giving you a fortitude save of 5.5. There's a misconception that fractional saves somehow cause the first level of a class to not give you a huge bonus to saves, but they actually increase the bonus. For example, a barbarian 1/fighter 1 would have a fortitude save of +5. Check the numbers on the variant if you don't believe me.

[Darth Stabber]

Those saves are inaccurate. Fractional saves don't reduce your saves at all. For fortitude, on level one, you get +2.5, from cleric. At level two, that increases to +3, because that's how good saves progress. However, the first level of ranger gives you +2.5 again, thus giving you a fortitude save of 5.5. There's a misconception that fractional saves somehow cause the first level of a class to not give you a huge bonus to saves, but they actually increase the bonus. For example, a barbarian 1/fighter 1 would have a fortitude save of +5. Check the numbers on the variant if you don't believe me.

This is purely a house rule, but at my table the rule is that you can only get one of those first level +2s per save. So a fighter2/cleric1 would get fort 3 ref1 will3

[eggynack]

This is purely a house rule, but at my table the rule is that you can only get one of those first level +2s per save. So a fighter2/cleric1 would get fort 3 ref1 will3
Fair enough, I suppose. I actually like the burst saves from rapid multiclassing, because it gives a slight edge to melee guys. For example, fighter 2/barbarian 2 for + 6 fort is significantly better than going full class in either one. By contrast, cleric 2/druid 2 for +6 fort and will is significantly worse than going full class in either one. You're far better off just going druid or cleric 20, and you don't get any of the cool save boosts. It's not like it's going to fix the game by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a step in the right direction.

[Darth Stabber]

Fair enough, I suppose. I actually like the burst saves from rapid multiclassing, because it gives a slight edge to melee guys. For example, fighter 2/barbarian 2 for + 6 fort is significantly better than going full class in either one. By contrast, cleric 2/druid 2 for +6 fort and will is significantly worse than going full class in either one. You're far better off just going druid or cleric 20, and you don't get any of the cool save boosts. It's not like it's going to fix the game by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a step in the right direction.

Your caster point is salient, but think about this: cleric/prc/prc/prc. They may not start jumping around as early as meleers, but they DO jump a lot at the other end.

[eggynack]

Your caster point is salient, but think about this: cleric/prc/prc/prc. They may not start jumping around as early as meleers, but they DO jump a lot at the other end.
Yeah, prestige classes are a thing, which means that casters are usually going to see some sort of benefit. Still, even with prestige classes, casters still see less benefit. Melee guys tend to get the multiclassing thing up front, but they also often get prestige classes at the same rate that casters do. There's also the ancient tradition of throwing a ToB dip in at the end of a build, which is kinda fancy. Ultimately, I don't think that there's much that'll give the casters an edge in this regard, though they have some ways to dull melee's advantage. It's not really relevant if casters gain a save bump, as long as the mundane fellows always gain a bigger one. I'm sure there are some great caster builds that are dip heavy like crazy, but those are the exception, rather than the rule. Moreover, Druids usually only get this benefit between zero and one times, and I'm not sure how artificers interact with this, but I suspect that it's not much.

[Muggins]

Those saves are inaccurate. Fractional saves don't reduce your saves at all. For fortitude, on level one, you get +2.5 from cleric. At level two, that increases to +3, because that's how good saves progress. However, the first level of ranger gives you +2.5 again, thus giving you a fortitude save of 5.5. There's a misconception that fractional saves somehow cause the first level of a class to not give you a huge bonus to saves, but they actually increase the bonus. For example, a barbarian 1/fighter 1 would have a fortitude save of +5. Check the numbers on the variant if you don't believe me.
I'm not sure if fraction saves work that way, but gestalt characters do and they're based on the fractional save system.

Since fractional saves seem work off saving throw progressions, rather than each class' stated increases to their saving throws, I'm inclined to believe that Darth is actually correct.

For each save bonus, choose the better progression from the two classes.
Emphasis mine. The extra +2 from the good saving throw progression at first level is only counted once.

Level 1: Sorcerer/Cleric. Medium BAB, Good Fortitude, Poor Reflex, Good Will.
Level 2: Sorcerer/Cleric. Medium BAB, Good Fortitude, Poor Reflex, Good Will.
Level 3: Ranger/Cleric. High BAB, Good Fortitude, Good Reflex, Good Will.
Therefore: +2.5 BAB, +3.5 Fortitude, +3.16 Reflex and +3.5 Will. These are subsequently rounded down to +2 BAB, +3 Fortitude, +3 Reflex and +3 Will.

[eggynack]

I'm not sure if fraction saves work that way, but gestalt characters do and they're based on the fractional save system.

Since fractional saves seem work off saving throw progressions, rather than each class' stated increases to their saving throws, I'm inclined to believe that Darth is actually correct.

Emphasis mine. The extra +2 from the good saving throw progression at first level is only counted once.

Level 1: Sorcerer/Cleric. Medium BAB, Good Fortitude, Poor Reflex, Good Will.
Level 2: Sorcerer/Cleric. Medium BAB, Good Fortitude, Poor Reflex, Good Will.
Level 3: Ranger/Cleric. High BAB, Good Fortitude, Good Reflex, Good Will.
Therefore: +2.5 BAB, +3.5 Fortitude, +3.16 Reflex and +3.5 Will. These are subsequently rounded down to +2 BAB, +3 Fortitude, +3 Reflex and +3 Will.
Fractional saves do not work off of some progression that doesn't include the initial +2 boost. In fact, they explicitly work the way I claim. I was planning to post the evidence behind this at the time, so I suppose I should just do that now. The example character is a cleric 5/fighter 2. Both classes have a good fort save, so let's use that one for simplicity points. Now, according to your logic, this character would have a fortitude of 5.5, because that's what a 7th level character with good progression is listed as on the chart. However, in the example, the character is listed as having a fortitude save of 7, which is rounded down from 7.5. Check that one yourself if you don't believe me. Anyways, the way you get to 7.5 is by adding a second level character with a good fortitude save, which is a 3, to a 5th level character with a good fortitude save, which is a 4.5.

Thus, the fractional save variant includes the +2 from the regular version of saves, and actually exacerbates that effect by having the first level save bonus be a 2.5. Because this bonus is an intrinsic part of the progression, that bonus would also be counted in a gestalt. Let us return to the original example, once again with fortitude saves. At first level, the comparison is between +2.5 and +1/3, so +2.5 wins out. At the second level, the cleric advancement is still the greater of the two, so the saves advance to +3. However, at level three, the ranger's save increase is greater than the cleric's save increase, so you add +2.5 to the progression, making the save a +5.5;

[Darth Stabber]

Since fractional saves seem work off saving throw progressions, rather than each class' stated increases to their saving throws, I'm inclined to believe that Darth is actually correct.


Eggynack is right, my method is explicitly a house rule, and I said as much in my post.

[Muggins]

The more you know. :smallsmile: