PDA

View Full Version : Combat Maneuver System (3.P)



Perseus
2013-07-08, 10:37 PM
As my pals and I currently use our Combat Maneuver System...

Start Wall of Text
Combat Maneuver DC: When performing a combat maneuver, the attacker has a value (the CMDC) which is the target goal the defender must meet or exceed on a Fortitude or Reflex save in order to not be hit with the maneuver.

Vlad the Fighter decides to Bull Rush Gary the Rogue. Vlad's CMDC is equal to 10 + 1/2 BAB + Vlad's Strength Mod. Vlad doesn't have Imp. Bull Rush so Gary the Rogue is allowed to choose a Fortitude or Reflex save to try to resist or dodge Vlad's attempt to push him. There is no AoO to perform a combat maneuver.

Gary chooses to make a reflex save since that is his strongest save. Gar the Rogue easily side steps the Bull Rush attempt by beating the CMDC set forth by Vlad.

A couple weeks later, Vlad comes back to Gary but this time he has Imp. Bull Rush. Vlad attempts to push Gary (CMDC = 10 +1/2 BAB + Vlad's Strength Mod) and due to Imp. Bull Rush forces Gary to make a Fortitude save against his CMDC. Gary fails his Fortitude check and was unable to resist the Bull Rush.

So what I have so far is...

CMDC (Combat Maneuver Difficulty Class) = 10 + 1/2 BAB + Strength or Dexterity Vs. Fortitude or Reflex Save.

If Attacker doesn't have the Improved Maneuver Feat (each taken separately or maybe in pairs) then the defender may choose which type of Save to make (resist or dodge). If the Attacker does have the Improved Maneuver Feat then the attacker may determine the save that the defender will make.

Additional feats:

Maneuver Focus: +1 CMDC of maneuver.

Small Size: -1/+1 CMDC to specific maneuvers (all small races gain this). Must be small.

Large+ Size: -1/+1 CMDC to specific maneuvers (all large and bigger races gain this). Must be at least large size to have this.

Multi-Legged: +1 CMDC to specific maneuvers (all multilegged creatures gain this). Must have multiple legs to gain this.

*Note* All current modifiers from races/classes are dropped and the above is given. We also only use three size categories (Small, Medium, Large) which every monster/enemy would be considered for the purpose of this system.

End Wall of Text

However I'm not sure if the Math on this. I'm not sure if the CMDC should be calculated the way we are doing it or if there is a better way.

Should each maneuver be given a CMDC (say 13) and then just add the strength or dexterity to that number along with any feat/racial bonuses?

Should we leave it the way it is?

*shrug*

So if anyone has any constructive information for me then that would be fantastic.

Thanks in advance!

Vadskye
2013-07-09, 03:05 PM
First thought: CMDC looks like CMD at first glance, so I was really confused about whether it was an offensive or defensive attribute.

Second thought: The "standard" DC for an ability is 10 + 1/2 level + relevant ability modifier. Therefore, I'd say that your mechanism should scale fairly well. I'll do some math with it - I may actually like this better than the system I've been using (which was Pathfinder-inspired).

Third thought: Size categories should have a much bigger impact than just a +1/-1. A halfling is about three feet tall, and weighs a touch over 30 pounds. There is no way that halfling has only a -1 on bull rush checks relative to a human. Likewise, an elephant is 15+ feet tall and weighs who knows how many tons. That's not just a +2 bonus on its Fort save to avoid being bull rushed. Why not stick with the normal +4/-4 system?

Fourth thought: It seems really weird that the attacker doesn't roll. Also, what modifiers would you expect to apply to the DC? Does a bonus to attack rolls help me disarm?

Perseus
2013-07-10, 07:12 AM
First thought: CMDC looks like CMD at first glance, so I was really confused about whether it was an offensive or defensive attribute.

Second thought: The "standard" DC for an ability is 10 + 1/2 level + relevant ability modifier. Therefore, I'd say that your mechanism should scale fairly well. I'll do some math with it - I may actually like this better than the system I've been using (which was Pathfinder-inspired).

Third thought: Size categories should have a much bigger impact than just a +1/-1. A halfling is about three feet tall, and weighs a touch over 30 pounds. There is no way that halfling has only a -1 on bull rush checks relative to a human. Likewise, an elephant is 15+ feet tall and weighs who knows how many tons. That's not just a +2 bonus on its Fort save to avoid being bull rushed. Why not stick with the normal +4/-4 system?

Fourth thought: It seems really weird that the attacker doesn't roll. Also, what modifiers would you expect to apply to the DC? Does a bonus to attack rolls help me disarm?

Before I get into work I wanted to respond to number 4.

The reason for the maneuver to be rolled is to keep the attacker from having a chance of failure based on rolling a 1. Most maneuvers don't cause damage (mundane's main toy) but some do lead to it. Thus someone who wants to be flavorful should have a good mechanic behind it, one that works (hint why I want to fix the math).

So the mundane type is giving up the one thing they do well to do a maneuver. They should get something nice for that. Mundanes usually never get anything nice, however with my saving throw maneuver system they not only get to get rid of the problem with rolling a natural 1, they get to dictate what defense they target.

The DC as of right now is 10 + 1/2 BAB + Str or Dex Mod.

However I'm not sure if that formula should change or not. It might be to high or to low.

Some important items for the DC

BAB
Strength OR Dexterity mod
"Average roll of d20" or another base number.

At level 20 a fighter would have a DC of 20 + Strength or Dex Mod.. So at the lowest a 28. I guess forcing dragons to make a reflex save of 28 might be a bit to much (they have 10 Dex minus whatever the wizard rolled on his shivering touch).

Another thing I figured is have each maneuver have their own base DC and modify it based on BAB or Str/Dex.

Still working on it.

Might change the DC name to (Combat Difficulty Class, CDC)