Earth/stone based Sorcerer

[Yogibear41]

what are some good earth based spells and prestige classes for an earth/rock flavored sorcerer. (dwarf with a mineral warrior template, high charisma is overrated)

the Earth Dreamer prc from races of stone is the only thing I have found so far that fits this theme.

[Norin]

what are some good earth based spells and prestige classes for an earth/rock flavored sorcerer. (dwarf with a mineral warrior template, high charisma is overrated)

the Earth Dreamer prc from races of stone is the only thing I have found so far that fits this theme.

Heart of earth, fist of stone, sandblast, stoneskin, wall of stone/sand, earthgrasp, local tremor, rock to mud, stone to lava, stone shape, hail of stone, move earth.

Should be more, but that's a start on the spells.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Would sand fit into your theme? because there is the sand shaper from sandstorm. Over-all it is considered a mediocre class, but the first level is considered the most powerful even though it doesn't advance spellcasting. The first level adds a huge amount of spells to your spells known list.

[Jack_Simth]

You might check out the Elemental Savant in Complete Arcane, although it's not a powerhouse.

[nedz]

There aren't many low level earth spells, which may be a problem if you are starting at 1st or something. Acid is the earth associated element though, and there are several acid spells; and Energy Substitution (Acid) adds a few more.

[Diovid]

Some prc suggestions:

Deep Diviner (Underdark)
Earthshaker (Dragon Magazine #314, intended for clerics and druids, can't remember if it advances all spellcasting or just divine spellcasting)

[Yogibear41]

There aren't many low level earth spells, which may be a problem if you are starting at 1st or something. Acid is the earth associated element though, and there are several acid spells; and Energy Substitution (Acid) adds a few more.


Might try to go gish, but either way with a mineral warrior template I shouldn't have any trouble going into melee and doing some damage with a dwarven war axe for at least 5-6 levels.

[Diarmuid]

I went through a similar exercise a couple weeks ago and found that there just arent that many earth-related spells through 3rd level.

There are a few, and of those not all are terribly useful.

[Feytalist]

Went through the same thing a while back, and came to a similar conclusion.

Earth Dreamer has some interesting abilities though, so that's an idea.

Also take a look at urdunnir from Races of Faerun. Dwarven subrace with a sort of racial stone glide ability. LA +4 though.

Most good spells have been mentioned, but some nice higher level ones are xorn movement and undermaster.

Ultimately though, in this case it's more about flavour than power.

[ArqArturo]

Would sand fit into your theme? because there is the sand shaper from sandstorm. Over-all it is considered a mediocre class, but the first level is considered the most powerful even though it doesn't advance spellcasting. The first level adds a huge amount of spells to your spells known list.

Heheh, Sand-Bending...

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma0mmdHKyf1rfr4i6o1_500.gif

[Diarmuid]

There was a subset of bloodline feats that would add 1 spell per level to your spells known.

One of them was Earth. Added Enlarge Person, Keen Edge, Stone Shape, and others IIRC.

[nedz]

Sorcerer Earth spells
Level 1
Fist of Stone — good for a Gish
Hail of Stone — OK

Level 2
Earthen Grasp — Poor
Local Tremor — Poor
Locate Node — Situational
Node Lock — Situational
Scimitar of Sand — good for a Gish

Level 3
Clearstone — Situational
Eradicate Earth — Situational
Haboob — OK
Node Door — Situational
Stony Grasp — Poor
Storm Mote — OK

[Yogibear41]

There was a subset of bloodline feats that would add 1 spell per level to your spells known.

One of them was Earth. Added Enlarge Person, Keen Edge, Stone Shape, and others IIRC.


Yeah I came across this feat earlier would definantly take it, even adds a few spells that I couldn't normally pick up without it (druid/cleric spells)


EDIT: for spells with both the earth and air descriptor, the earth bloodline would still remove those spells right? I'm pretty sure that means earth and air and not earth or air.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Sorcerer Earth spells
Level 1
Fist of Stone — good for a Gish
Hail of Stone — OK

Level 2
Earthen Grasp — Poor
Local Tremor — Poor
Locate Node — Situational
Node Lock — Situational
Scimitar of Sand — good for a Gish

Level 3
Clearstone — Situational
Eradicate Earth — Situational
Haboob — OK
Node Door — Situational
Stony Grasp — Poor
Storm Mote — OK

OK? I know Hail of Stone doesn't do much damage, but it is a really good spell for a mail man type build. No save, no SR, no to-hit roll, good range, 5 ft. radius, and despite a reference in another book suggesting it does bludgeoning damage it actually does typeless damage. Of course it is still a damage spell and at low level it is hard to afford all those 5 gp jade chips.

[ArqArturo]

OK? I know Hail of Stone doesn't do much damage, but it is a really good spell for a mail man type build. No save, no SR, no to-hit roll, good range, 5 ft. radius, and despite a reference in another book suggesting it does bludgeoning damage it actually does typeless damage. Of course it is still a damage spell and at low level it is hard to afford all those 5 gp jade chips.

On the upside, my Warmage did make good use of that spell :smallamused:.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I forgot to mention people metamagic hail of stone so it does enough damage to kill dragons. The dragons can't stop that.

[Psyren]

Runesmith fits well - I always pictured that a true "earth mage" would be able to walk around clad in plate, and Runesmith gives you a way to do it mechanically. I forget if it's Wizard-only though.

[Yogibear41]

well its not technically wizard only, but you have to "prepare" your spells ahead of time if you want to use it. So its not exactly ideal for a sorcerer.
If I end up going gish with it I'd probably build it something like this:

1.Fighter
2.Sorcerer
3. Sorcerer
4.Sorcerer
5.Sorcerer
6.Sorcerer
7.Sorcerer
8. Spell Sword
9. Abjurant Champion
10.Abjurant Champion
11.Abjurant Champion
12.Abjurant Champion
13.Abjurant Champion
14. Eldritch Knight
15. Eldritch Knight
16. Eldritch Knight
17. Eldritch Knight
18. Eldritch Knight
19. Eldritch Knight
20. Eldritch Knight

End up with 17 bab, and 18th level casting, base hit points might be low, but I can start with a +7 con mod and will probably take improved toughness as one of my bonus fighter feats.

taking the dwarven substution levels for sorcerer 1 and 5, mainly just for a d6 hit die, but +1 to saves would also be beneficial due to a lower charisma.

[nedz]

I forgot to mention people metamagic hail of stone so it does enough damage to kill dragons. The dragons can't stop that.

That's sort of why I rated it OK.
At low level it's average falling to poor towards mid level.
At high level, with high OP, it can be good — assuming you build a mailman.
I was really looking at it from the point of view of a low level caster, but you have to take in it's attributes across all levels.

[NeoPhoenix0]

That's sort of why I rated it OK.
At low level it's average falling to poor towards mid level.
At high level, with high OP, it can be good — assuming you build a mailman.
I was really looking at it from the point of view of a low level caster, but you have to take in it's attributes across all levels.

Good point.

One of my friends deeply laments the lack of support for spells with the earth subtype, But he loves some of the acid spells.

[Psyren]

You can easily put Acid or Sonic under Earth if you want to shore it up relative to the more popular elements.

[ArqArturo]

You can easily put Acid or Sonic under Earth if you want to shore it up relative to the more popular elements.

I dunno, the popular elements sit in front of the elemental lunchroom, leaving behind the nerdy-looking wood, and iron elementals that only get along with the wu-jen :p .

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I am not saying it is necessarily a very good idea. I am also not saying that it is not a pain to build one. But: did you have a look at the (earth) Shugenja? Not as powerful as a sorcerer and annoyingly restrictive in builing, it is still a full caster with an elemental theme that combines arcane and divine spells. Since you have a peculiar idea with your build, this might work out well.

[Yogibear41]

In regards to hail of stone, what metamagic feats were you talking about? other than empower and maximize to make it do 30 damage with no save, what other metamagics were you talking about?

[nedz]

I am not saying it is necessarily a very good idea. I am also not saying that it is not a pain to build one. But: did you have a look at the (earth) Shugenja? Not as powerful as a sorcerer and annoyingly restrictive in building, it is still a full caster with an elemental theme that combines arcane and divine spells. Since you have a peculiar idea with your build, this might work out well.

Very few of the Earth Shugenja spells are actually Earth spells though.
0 out of 4 Level 0
1 out of 5 Level 1
0 out of 6 Level 2
2 out of 5 Level 3
1 out of 5 Level 4
etc.

[nedz]

In regards to hail of stone, what metamagic feats were you talking about? other than empower and maximize to make it do 30 damage with no save, what other metamagics were you talking about?

Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer) .......

[NeoPhoenix0]

Yeah check out the link and apply the stuff normally applied to the orb spells to hail of stones. You can't kill a dragon with two feats and hail of stone, unless it's a wyrmling. It takes an entire build to pump up a lv 1 damage spell that high.

[Yogibear41]

If you twin spell a spell that has been empowered and maximized is the twin spell also empowered and maximized?

[NeoPhoenix0]

Yes, it's still one spell, it just happens twice.

Edit: Oh and note that empower plus maximize equals 20 + 1/2(5d4) damage not 30.

[Jack_Simth]

In regards to hail of stone, what metamagic feats were you talking about? other than empower and maximize to make it do 30 damage with no save, what other metamagics were you talking about?
There's also the addition of the (commonly considered broken) Reserves of Strength feat from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting (to remove the damage cap), as well as (as noted) Twin spell. Make sure you're immune to stunning, and the consequence is just a small amount of damage.

So you get:
Twinned(Maximized + Empowered(Xd4)) no-save, no-sr, no-attack-roll, non-elemental damage. If you've got a caster level of 20, that means you're doing... 160+20d4 damage (average 210 damage). At CR 20:
Wyrm Black Dragon: 459 hp
Ancient Brass Dragon: 387 hp
Very Old Bronze Dragon: 375 hp
Very Old Copper Dragon: 362 hp
Old Red Dragon: 378 hp
Balor: 290 hp
Pit Fiend: 225 hp
Old Silver: 350 hp
Mr. T: 858 hp

So most CR 20 critters would need about two hits of that before they go down (which, you know, means you can one-round them with a lesser rod of Quicken spell).

[NeoPhoenix0]

Lesser rods work on metamagiced spells? I never knew that.

[Jack_Simth]

Lesser rods work on metamagiced spells? I never knew that.

It is indirectly part of the definition of metamagic feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats):
"In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level" (unless, of course, Heighten is used). So that Quickened Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm) spell (5th level slot) is still stopped by a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeOfInvulnerabilityLesser.htm), a lesser metamagic rod of Empower spell can Empower that Stilled, Silent, Extended Prayer spell (6th level slot, but a 3rd level spell), and theoretically Limited Wish can duplicate a twinned, maximized, empowered, energy admixture(fire), energy admixture(cold), energy admixture(et cetera), repeating, Searing, Orb of Fire... theoretically without any of the metamagic feats involved... as it's still a 4th level Sor/Wiz spell.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Wow, that also explains the versatile caster, heighten spell early entry trick.

[Yogibear41]

There's also the addition of the (commonly considered broken) Reserves of Strength feat from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting (to remove the damage cap), as well as (as noted) Twin spell. Make sure you're immune to stunning, and the consequence is just a small amount of damage.

So you get:
Twinned(Maximized + Empowered(Xd4)) no-save, no-sr, no-attack-roll, non-elemental damage. If you've got a caster level of 20, that means you're doing... 160+20d4 damage (average 210 damage). At CR 20:
Wyrm Black Dragon: 459 hp
Ancient Brass Dragon: 387 hp
Very Old Bronze Dragon: 375 hp
Very Old Copper Dragon: 362 hp
Old Red Dragon: 378 hp
Balor: 290 hp
Pit Fiend: 225 hp
Old Silver: 350 hp
Mr. T: 858 hp

So most CR 20 critters would need about two hits of that before they go down (which, you know, means you can one-round them with a lesser rod of Quicken spell).


Pretty sure my DM would kill me before the night ended if I pulled that one.

[Jack_Simth]

Pretty sure my DM would kill me before the night ended if I pulled that one....

You mean your character, right?

...

Or do you? Hmm. I can't tell.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Very few of the Earth Shugenja spells are actually Earth spells though.
0 out of 4 Level 0
1 out of 5 Level 1
0 out of 6 Level 2
2 out of 5 Level 3
1 out of 5 Level 4
etc.

A spell does not have to literally have [earth] in the descriptor to be earth themed, though. At least, not for me. Pass without trace, Barkskin and Plant growth fit that theme as well, I believe. Even outside the earth discipline there's a few spells that work well with the theme, the SNA spells for better elemental summoning than SM, for example, and Commune with nature.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Pretty sure my DM would kill me before the night ended if I pulled that one.

Really. To tell the truth it isn't even that optimal of a build when you consider that you can take out a dragon with one or two unmodified spells and you just spent an entire lv 20 build to do that through damage.

My personal favorite dragon slaying spell (which i never actually use) is Lahm's Finger Darts from book of vile darkness. It's a corrupt spell so it's usually only available to prepared casters, but sorcerers have ways around that. It functions basically like magic missile but you take 1 point of strength damage and lose one finger per missile, and each missile does 1d4 dexterity damage. Almost all dragons have 10 dexterity so it can disable a dragon in one or two castings and then you can coup de grace them all day until they are dead.

I don't use the spell for multiple reasons, but it serves to demonstrate that direct damage is, unfortunately, often outclassed by other things. At least the mailman is unstoppable by saves, spell resistance, and if you use hail of stone touch AC.

[Jack_Simth]

Really. To tell the truth it isn't even that optimal of a build when you consider that you can take out a dragon with one or two unmodified spells and you just spent an entire lv 20 build to do that through damage.Couple of things...

1) Reserves of Strength also increases your caster level (the nominal primary function), so the caster level of 20 means a character level of somewhere between 17 and 19 (and could be lower, with certain items and/or class features).
2) The specifically listed metamagic is nine levels worth - it would need to be reduced somehow. As it's for one specific spell, Arcane Thesis is an easy choice (and theoretically gets it down to 7th level).
3) It's one spell, a couple of feats, and a single specified magic item. This does not an entire build make (although it does eat up a significant chunk). This same Wizard (or Sorcerer, or one or two other classes) is still a full caster for other things.

So this could be, say, a Wizard-13/Archmage-2, taking Spell Power for the high Arcana twice, and reliably be taking down +5 CR opponents, in one round, solo, with the only real defence being high hp, several times per day.

It really is a pretty cheesy tactic for most tables.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Yeah it is pretty cheesy, but at the same time there are more powerful things that you can do. Here is an example that i admit is rather specific but here goes.

A level nine wizard can kill a great wyrm red dragon with one spells and a +1 scythe.

a maximized Lahm's Finger Darts.

the safest way to confront a dragon is to just wait for the dragon to come out of its lair, contrary to common sense as it has an advantage in the open. When you see the dragon hit it with the darts and it will be paralyzed because it has zero dex. walk up to it and coup de grace it to death with your scythe, it doesn't even matter that you aren't proficient.

I realize this is rather specific but a level nine wizard can still kill a CR 26 creature with a 2000 gp weapon and one spell. This could be one reason i don't use finger darts.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah it is pretty cheesy, but at the same time there are more powerful things that you can do. Until you pull out pun-pun, there are always more powerful things that you can do. The issue that there's something more powerful you could be doing is largely irrelevant. What is relevant is what's acceptable at the specific gaming table (which admittedly will vary).

Additionally:
Lahm's Finger Darts put you at a rather severe disadvantage for a time - that 9th level caster firing off a maximized LFD to deal 12 Dex damage is at -3 strength for a while, and needs healing to be able to do this more than maybe once a day.

The LFD method is pretty much dragon-specific; a rather lot of critters have high enough dexterity that this isn't going to floor them.

The LFD method permits SR - a lot of things will be resistant or immune on that basis.

The LFD method deals dexterity damage - undead and constructs are flat-out immune, as are people who cast certain spells (such as Sheltered Vitality).

They're different brands of cheese, each with their own pluses and minuses.