Dual Wield Hand Crossbow!!!!

[Machadawg]

I'm helping a friend build a character after he died in the last session.( semi-hilarious :smallbiggrin:) He is kinda new and I found he more easily comprehends a ranger-rogue build. He wants to dual wield hand crossbows with poison mostly for cool effect. He also wants to TWF with scimitars and go crit fishing. I've got the scimitars ironed out. Just need a build for the hand crossbows that isn't way über optimized.

[Flickerdart]

Archery needs loads of feats and items to catch up to melee in effectiveness. Hand crossbows have two problems. First, they deal crap damage and have crap range, so you will probably get about one shot off before entering melee. Second, if you are dual-wielding them, you don't have any free hands to reload. Both of these can be addressed with feats and items, but given that you're already wasting your feats and gold on keeping two weapons relevant, this isn't really going to work well.

[satorian]

I'd just go straight Scout, maybe a dash of Assassin if you want to focus on poison. Dual wield is a waste, though you do get the bonus feats to do it if you want. But you'll probably get more play out of a repeating crossbow well enchanted and use your Skirmish and poison to get your umph. Simple still, just 1 class and a prestige, limited spells, and a bit more effective. Also, you'll have the feats leftover to spend on things more useful than dual wielding.

[Spuddles]

Hand crossbow focus, Drow of the Underdark. Gives you rapid reload and weapon focus for hand crossbows.

Targatteer fighter- get proficiency with all martial ranged weapons and 2 exotic ones. Pick hand cross bow. Also can trade fighter feat for a targetteer ability. Pick up the one that gives you dex to damage.

Hit and run fighter, from drow of the underdark, gives you dex to damage vs. flat footed opponents. Nab that. Have to sacrifice heavy armor prof and shield prof (yawn).

Crossbow Sniper, from PHB 2 gets you half dex damage to with crossbows. get that, too.

Dead Eye feat, dragon compendium, gives you dex to damage against non-crit immune targets within 30ft.

You can find all these feats on google, along with their restrictions (range, flat-footedness, crit immunity, etc).

Take levels in mystic ranger, for more spellcasting. Gives you rapid reload at level 3. Choose favored enemy: arcanists (anything that casts arcane spells or uses Sp abilities). Probably hurts widest range of creatures. Undead, and construct are good, too.

Pick up 4 levels of scout and the Swift Hunter feat. This lets you stack ranger levels with scout levels for skirmish.

Build should look like Fighter1(targetteer, hit and run)/scout 4/cloistered cleric1/Ranger 14(mystic ranger).

Grab Sword of the Arcane Order so you can put wizard spells in your ranger spell slots (which go up to 5th level, thanks to mystic ranger).

Trade out the travel and knowledge domains from being a cleric for knowledge devotion & travel devotion. Other domain should be spell, because it's neat.

Make sure you get something that auto-reloads those hand cross bows for you. Nab TWF, ITWF, GTWF & rapid shot.

Attack routine is primary/offhand/rapidshot/secondary/offhand/tertiary/offhand, which you can make as a full attack after moving, thanks to travel devotion.

Enchant both xbows with splitting, for double the number of attacks.

That's 14 attacks with up to 3.5x dex added and +5d6 skirmish damage on each attack. If you picked Undead & Construct as your favored enemies, you can skirmish them despite their usual immunity.

See if you can't get Crossbow Sniper to increase skirmish/hit-and-run damage range to 60ft.

[Darth Stabber]

Hand crossbow focus, Drow of the Underdark. Gives you rapid reload and weapon focus for hand crossbows.

Targatteer fighter- get proficiency with all martial ranged weapons and 2 exotic ones. Pick hand cross bow. Also can trade fighter feat for a targetteer ability. Pick up the one that gives you dex to damage.

Hit and run fighter, from drow of the underdark, gives you dex to damage vs. flat footed opponents. Nab that. Have to sacrifice heavy armor prof and shield prof (yawn).

Crossbow Sniper, from PHB 2 gets you half dex damage to with crossbows. get that, too.

Dead Eye feat, dragon compendium, gives you dex to damage against non-crit immune targets within 30ft.

You can find all these feats on google, along with their restrictions (range, flat-footedness, crit immunity, etc).

Take levels in mystic ranger, for more spellcasting. Gives you rapid reload at level 3. Choose favored enemy: arcanists (anything that casts arcane spells or uses Sp abilities). Probably hurts widest range of creatures. Undead, and construct are good, too.

Pick up 4 levels of scout and the Swift Hunter feat. This lets you stack ranger levels with scout levels for skirmish.

Build should look like Fighter1(targetteer, hit and run)/scout 4/cloistered cleric1/Ranger 14(mystic ranger).

Grab Sword of the Arcane Order so you can put wizard spells in your ranger spell slots (which go up to 5th level, thanks to mystic ranger).

Trade out the travel and knowledge domains from being a cleric for knowledge devotion & travel devotion. Other domain should be spell, because it's neat.

Make sure you get something that auto-reloads those hand cross bows for you. Nab TWF, ITWF, GTWF & rapid shot.

Attack routine is primary/offhand/rapidshot/secondary/offhand/tertiary/offhand, which you can make as a full attack after moving, thanks to travel devotion.

Enchant both xbows with splitting, for double the number of attacks.

That's 14 attacks with up to 3.5x dex added and +5d6 skirmish damage on each attack. If you picked Undead & Construct as your favored enemies, you can skirmish them despite their usual immunity.

See if you can't get Crossbow Sniper to increase skirmish/hit-and-run damage range to 60ft.

Dual wielding SMGs?

[Spuddles]

Dual wielding SMGs?

I started a build like this, once. By level 3, me and my lightning warrior were uninvited from the game.

[Darth Stabber]

I started a build like this, once. By level 3, me and my lightning warrior were uninvited from the game.

Things like that are probably part of the reason I DM so darn much.

[Feytalist]

I started a build like this, once. By level 3, me and my lightning warrior were uninvited from the game.

So, Lightning Mace aptitude hand crossbows?

And then someone casts Death Urge on you and then you atomize yourself?

Yes.

[Curmudgeon]

Dual wielding SMGs?
Conceptually, going into battle with two of Buffy (the Vampire Slayer) seems pretty intriguing; I'm just not sure where you got that idea from. :smallconfused:

[Darth Stabber]

Conceptually, going into battle with two of Buffy (the Vampire Slayer) seems pretty intriguing; I'm just not sure where you got that idea from. :smallconfused:

Not sure if sarcastic or doesn't know what a submachine gun is.

[Spuddles]

Wait what else could an SMG be?


[edit]
Was it Darth_Stabber with the infamous aptitude crossbow build?

No, Olo_Demonsbane

[Feytalist]

Wait what else could an SMG be?


[edit]
Was it Darth_Stabber with the infamous aptitude crossbow build?

SMG -> Sarah Michelle Gellar; the actress who played Buffy.

I'm pretty sure he was being facetious.


The Lightning Crossbow build was Olo Demonsbane in ToS.

Edit: Immortalised here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125698).

[Darth Stabber]

Wait what else could an SMG be?

I am about 80% certain Curmudgeon was referring to Sarah Michelle Gellar (the actress that played Buffy)

Edit: swordsage'd

[Andion Isurand]

Obah-Blessed template from Dungeon Magazine 136 is a fun one to consider when thinking about this build...

+2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Cha
one extra pair of arms
multi-weapon fighting bonus feat
+2 LA

-- or --

+4 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Con, +6 Cha
two extra pairs of arms
multi-weapon fighting bonus feat
+3 LA

[Swaoeaeieu]

sure dual wield hand crosbows. coolness does not need to be practical. but do make sure to make then both double handcrossbows, four arrows at once. give them all splitting and put some splintering arrows in them.

shotguns

[Spuddles]

sure dual wield hand crosbows. coolness does not need to be practical. but do make sure to make then both double handcrossbows, four arrows at once. give them all splitting and put some splintering arrows in them.

shotguns

Unfortunately, the minutiae of double crossbows doesn't allow that. :smallfrown:

Trust me, I closely investigated it.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Unfortunately, the minutiae of double crossbows doesn't allow that. :smallfrown:

Trust me, I closely investigated it.

did some investigating myself a while back. not that closely but as far as i found you can dual wield them with the neccesary feats. quick loading and self loading takes care of the loading problem. splitting is an enchantment that can go on crosbows and splintering bolts are made for all sizes of crossbows.

now i don't know much, so why wouldn't it work?

[Spuddles]

Relevant rules:

"A character can fire one of the two crossbows as an exotic weapon (hand crossbow) with a standard action, or both crossbows as an exotic weapon (hand crossbow) with a full round action (using multiple attacks gained from a high base attack bonus). A character with exotic weapon (double crossbow) training can fire both crossbows as a full-round action using their highest base attack bonus, but each attack takes a -2 penalty."

Without proficiency, you need a full round action and an iterative to fire both cross bows, so at least +6/+1 BAB.

With proficiency, you can fire both crossbows as a full-round action. Getting multiple attacks, whether from an off hand or iteratives or rapid shot requires a full-round attack. A full-round attack is a kind of full-round action, but you don't usually get to take multiple full-round actions a round, just like you don't get multiple move or standard actions.

[Swaoeaeieu]

so you can't fire them all at once because shooting both 'barrels' is an action and not an attack? why does the wording always always ruin good ideas?

so what are some other ways to get a lot of attacks using crosbows?

[Diarmuid]

You can make a Full Attack Action without having iterative attacks.

[Feint's End]

So, Lightning Mace aptitude hand crossbows?

And then someone casts Death Urge on you and then you atomize yourself?

Yes.

The whole Death Urge/Lightning Mace-thing probably won't make you able to deal more than your current HP + some more (for the overkill) damage since you can't attack yourself after you are dead (it is a free action to attack from Lightning Maces and you can't take free actions if you are dead). Also the reason why it isn't a legitimate way to break the damage record.

[Feytalist]

The whole Death Urge/Lightning Mace-thing probably won't make you able to deal more than your current HP + some more (for the overkill) damage since you can't attack yourself after you are dead (it is a free action to attack from Lightning Maces and you can't take free actions if you are dead). Also the reason why it isn't a legitimate way to break the damage record.

You'd still be dead.

That's bad enough, I think.