Challenge - PbP - Arena - playing mooks smartly

[Balor01]

This approach is meant to be discussed and reshaped, as well as suggested arena.

I have a hard time challenging my players at low levels and responces I am getting from playground are usually "play smarter". But in truth, "play smarter" usually goes somewhere along Tuckers' kobolds fiat: get PCs in a shaft, seal it, fill it with burning oil, then throw jars of acid on them via murderholes then plug in that 1,21 gigawatt speaker for adittional 6d20 sonic damage.

So, to tell the truth, I would really like to see this "smart play" if anyone is up for the challenge. Here is what I suggest as a challenge:


- 500x500 ft arena, filled with Large sized trees 80 ft apart
- parties "spawn" 100 ft apart, both have spotted each other
- initiative decides who goes when
- PCs are: two casters, two melee attackers (Sorc, Cleric, Barb, Ranger)
- PC levels available are: 2, 4 and 6

Challenge is to make a CR +4, CR +2, CR +1, CR +0 or, for really ballsy, CR -1 group of humanoids (no incorporeals, ghosts and alike, goblins, kobolds, bugbears and similar breathing, thinking kin in this match) that can, say, kill a single PC. Two PC deaths are not really expected to happen and TPK is a great chalice to be snatched. I am constantly reading about these cunning, elusive, daangerous opponents that troll parites two levels higher. Let me see it.

An example of encounter: four lvl 6 PCs vs 10 out-of-MM kobolds + 2 lvl 3 kobold casters with elite array and following available books: Core + 1 splatbook.

Encounter calculator states this is a CR 6 encounter, but I am pretty sure party I presented can just drive over dem poor kobolds.

First lets discuss if there are any flaws to such arena with one important notice: Terrain does not change, neither the fact that parties spot each other simoultanesouly. No kobolds in a Fireball spewing balissta tower and claiming it is still CR 6.

[Nightraiderx]

I'm not used to building CR appropriate monsters, can I build for just the PC characters? Also what point buy/stat requisition will you be using for the PC side? Any other assumptions you'd like to have for the PC's? (assume average health, WBL) Also how much book Access do the PC characters have at their disposal?

[Balor01]

@Nightraiderx
Oh, so you would play PCs? That sounds like something I could learn a lot from. As for PCs it is like this:

- four PCs
- Elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8)
- Books: Core +1 splatbook per PC (can not swap splatbooks between PCs)
- Health: MAX at 1st level, then 1/2+1+CON bonus, 1/2+0+CON bon, 1/2+1+CON, ... etc.
- Average WBL

[Xervous]

How much wealth do monsters have available?

Also, I see a massive problem with the proposed arena. It is absolutely barren. Sure there are trees spaced every million miles, but the most likely plan of action is still going to be charge the enemy.

CR 1 headache mook, elite array, + complete champion

orc barbarian 1
19 strength
14 con
13 dex
10 wisdom
8 int
6 cha

ACF lion totem
feat: strength devotion
weapon: greatsword

on its action, the orc rages for +4 strength (now 23). if there is a target within range, it charges and full attacks.

full attack on charge.
Greatsword: +9 to hit, 2d6 + 9 damage
slam: +4 to hit, 1d6 + 3

Against lower level parties (2 or 4), these things are rockets. against the higher level party (6), put a UMD guy in the middle of them to pop a scroll of haste and watch the carnage.

Hasted calculation
speed 60 ft. charges on first turn
Greatsword (two attacks): +10 to hit, 2d6 + 9 damage
slam: +5 to hit, 1d6 + 3


For low level mook feats, complete champion has a ton of good ones.


Animal devotion either grants them a 1d3 con bite attack (easy save, but you are throwing a good number of mooks at them), +2 to strength, or a 40 ft flight speed. The flight speed is probably the most killer.
destruction devotion makes a mook's attacks shred 1 armor per hit. when you're launching five or more at one guy, odds are he will die.
travel devotion lets your mooks move to full attack pretty much all the time. with pouncing barbarians, this lets them charge every round.


You may also use the bear totem in place of the lion totem to get improved grab. When you have superior numbers, grappling is simply wonderful. A raging barbarian with improved grapple with have a +12 grapple check. the highest realistic PC grapple check i can think of off the top of my head for a L6 under these rules is 17 (23 str, enlarge person, 6 BAB). Barring that, these guys will usually have better than even odds of grappling a PC.

[Balor01]

Ok. I guess an obstacles would be in order because they can be applied to any terrain. Obstacle would be difficult terrain - no charging, no 5-footing in there. Perhaps 10 ft around each tree?

I may just prep this arena and upload it.

I also think that perhaps lowest level mooks should each have one level of PC class. Without that, they have no edge.

[Xervous]

given difficult terrain, I'm going to lean towards my 40 ft fly speed L1 orc barbarians. hasted, its a 70 ft fly speed.

a level 6 arcane caster with 14 con will have 24 hp, 16 con yields 30 hp. a hasted flying orc will full attack for 2x (2d6 + 9) at +12 with masterwork greatsword. if the orc hits both times, average damage will kill the caster.

a small caster with 16 dex with shield and mage armor active will have a 22 AC, giving the orc a 50% chance to hit, 25% chance to kill. however, that takes the caster two turns to set up while the orc may very well be charging on his first turn.

a L2 marshal in the midst of the flying orcs could be interesting. I think the best use of one would be as a save booster. +3 to will saves and possibly rearranging the ability scores for the orcs would yield will saves in excess of 5 when raging. with 18 int, a caster will be forcing a DC 17 save on their 3rd level spells, and the infamous sleep will be a DC 15 and the orcs will save against more often than not.


ALSO

if the party wishes to stall with defensive spells, the orcs will gladly wait. Since they only require a full round's worth of actions to prepare and engage from within 140 ft, they can easily wait out most spells by hiding behind the trees.

30 CR 1s is a Encounter Level 10 challenge...

6 CR 1s is an Encounter Level 5 challenge. 5 flying orcs and a wizard to use a scroll of haste have a good chance of killing a minimum of one party member out of a L6 party, especially if they focus fire.

[Suddo]

given difficult terrain, I'm going to lean towards my 40 ft fly speed L1 orc barbarians. hasted, its a 70 ft fly speed.

a level 6 arcane caster with 14 con will have 24 hp, 16 con yields 30 hp. a hasted flying orc will full attack for 2x (2d6 + 9) at +12 with masterwork greatsword. if the orc hits both times, average damage will kill the caster.

a small caster with 16 dex with shield and mage armor active will have a 22 AC, giving the orc a 50% chance to hit, 25% chance to kill. however, that takes the caster two turns to set up while the orc may very well be charging on his first turn.

a L2 marshal in the midst of the flying orcs could be interesting. I think the best use of one would be as a save booster. +3 to will saves and possibly rearranging the ability scores for the orcs would yield will saves in excess of 5 when raging. with 18 int, a caster will be forcing a DC 17 save on their 3rd level spells, and the infamous sleep will be a DC 15 and the orcs will save against more often than not.


ALSO

if the party wishes to stall with defensive spells, the orcs will gladly wait. Since they only require a full round's worth of actions to prepare and engage from within 140 ft, they can easily wait out most spells by hiding behind the trees.

30 CR 1s is a Encounter Level 10 challenge...

6 CR 1s is an Encounter Level 5 challenge. 5 flying orcs and a wizard to use a scroll of haste have a good chance of killing a minimum of one party member out of a L6 party, especially if they focus fire.

How are you getting flying orcs in CR 6? And how do you figure any caster that has the ability to cast haste not increase the CR.

[Xervous]

orcs are flying via a feat (animal devotion)

haste is coming out of a scroll.

As the arena only requires these abilities to be active for a very brief interval, you can accomplish a lot with relatively low level monsters. Like I outlined above, this arrangement need only be within 140 ft of its target(s) and have a full rounds worth of actions available to its members to initiate with charges.

A L1 wizard has a 75% chance of activating a scroll of haste, pretty good odds.

[Suddo]

orcs are flying via a feat (animal devotion)

haste is coming out of a scroll.

As the arena only requires these abilities to be active for a very brief interval, you can accomplish a lot with relatively low level monsters. Like I outlined above, this arrangement need only be within 140 ft of its target(s) and have a full rounds worth of actions available to its members to initiate with charges.

Although I think you are doing well in optimizing, I think you are missing sight of the idea of the challenge.

The PCs will probably be able to stall against many Orcs who fly. The use of a scroll of haste I still think would up the CR as you'd have to have the orc get the buff within 5 rounds of the encounter or have the caster be part of the encounter (which is obviously an increase).

Edit: How do you optimize the lvl 1 wizard to get a scroll off so often. I forget how silly this system is. You merely need 13 int to use a scroll of haste?

[Xervous]

The orcs have the advantage on stalling. Their buffs and initial crushing assault all happen in one round. The conditions required to launch said assault are merely that they be within 140 ft. of the party and have a clear straight line to their targets. Since the orcs are capable of boasting the highest movement speed, they control when the fight truly begins. Only the PC barbarian has a chance of reaching their group on the first round, and that's if he took specific feats. Even then, the PC is horribly out of position and likely to die.

The orcs could all be equipped with tower shields to weather the ranger's arrows until the party's buffs run down.

And as a final thought, some orcs could substitute longspears for their greatswords for the reach.

[Telok]

I actually created sets of level 3 and level 5 mooks for use in my game. I'll reproduce some of them here.

These are from a spreadsheet where I could fit six or eight mook builds to a page. This means there are lots of abbreviations and after the first few I left out the passive feats after I set the numbers. AC is formatted in ac:[type] [normal], [touch], [flat footed], [flat footed touch]. Saves are in Fort, Ref, Will format.

Human Barbarian1 Fighter 2 hide, buckler, mw.bs, javelin(5)
s:16, d:14, c:15, i:13, w:12, c:11 move=40
hp 25 ac:hide&buckler 16, t:12, f:13, x:10 f:5 r:3 w:2
rage hp 34 ac:hide 7, t:4, f:5, x:2 f:8 r:3 w:4
Extend Rage (r=13) Reckless Rage Reckless Offense
EWP: BS WF: BS **p:cure lt (1d8+1)
attk BS +7 1d10+3 19x2 jav +5 1d6+3 20x2 30'
rage attk BS +12 1d10+9 19x2
jump.climb.swim 9(12), listen 6, survival 6, intimidate 6

The barbarian is a simple beater with a +12 attack doing 10+ damage for CR3.

Cleric 3 lawyer banded, wd.sm.sh, h.mace, silver symbol
s:14, d:12, c:15, i:11, w:16, c:13
(turns=4)(domination&planning)
hp 21 ac:banded&wd.sm.sh. 18, t:11, f:16, x:10 f:5 r:2 w:6
SF:enchantment, Extend Spell,
GSF:ench, DMM:Extend (2/day)
attk mace +4 1d8+2 20x2
concentration 8, kn:relig&law 6
0:dc12:cure minor x2, light x2 **p:faith heal (9hp)x2
1:dc13:command x3(dc15), lesser vigor x1(13 rnd)
2:dc14:augury, hold person(dc16), wave of grief(dc16)

My players hate these guys, if the NPCs have 10 minutes of warning that augury spell means an ambush or a trap.

Ranger 3 elf archer comp+2.longbow, s.sword, chn.shrt, 40arr
s:15 d:18 c:12 i:12 w:13 c:11
hp 18 ac:chn.shrt 18, t:14, f:14 ,x:10 f:4 r:5 w:2
Track, Endurance, Diehard, WF:longbow, Rapid Shot
attk bow +8 (+6/+6) 1d8+2 20x3 110'
attk s.sword +5 1d6 19x2
hide&sneak 10, rope 10, spot&listen 9, search 9, survive 7
immune sleep, lowlight vis, +2 vs Ench **p:faith heal (9hp)

Hit and run archers. Diehard is +10 HP on a mook.

Wizard 3 Conjurer, abrupt jaunt variant dagg, lt.xbow, 20bolt, spellbook
s:11 d:15 c:14 i:16 w:13 c:12
hp 15 ac: 12 [20], t:12, f:10 [14], x:10 f:3 r:3 w:4
Precocious Apprentice, Extra Spell, Scribe Scroll
attk xbow +3 1d8 19x2 80' **alch fire x5
attk dagg +1[+3] 1d4 19x2 10' **scroll:exped.retreat
jaunt 3/day immedate TP 10'
0:dc13:4 detect magic x2, read magic, light
1:dc14:5 mage ac, shield, grease x2[dc15], orb.cold [2d8]
2:dc15:4 web x2[dc16], glitterdst[dc16], fireburst[3d8 rHalf]
concentrate 8, spellcraft 9, kn:arcane.alchemy.dungeon 9

I've been told that Abrupt Jaunt is "OP on an NPC." But I just like it when everyone at the table chants "Gank the mage first!" in unison.

Wizard 3 gnome illusionist sm.grtaxe, sm.lt.xbow, 20bolt, spellbook
s:9 d:15 c:16 i:16 w:13 c:12 toad familiar, move 20, lowlite vis
hp 18 ac: 13 [21], t:13, f:11 [15], x:11 f:4 r:3 w:4
SF: illusion, GSF **eternal wand: mage armor
attk xbow +4 1d6 19x2 80'
attk axe -4 1d10 20x3
0:dc13:4 detect magic x2, read magic, light
1:dc14:4 Color Spray [dc18] x3, Shield
2:dc15:3 ShadowSpray, PhantAssailant, HypnoPattern [dc19s]
concentrate 8, spellcraft 9, kn:arcane.alchemy.dungeon 9

"Gank the mage first!"... Is it really my fault that you guys bunched up like that?

Druid 3 goliath hide, mw.lg.club, lg.sling, rocks, lt.wd.shld
s:18 d:11 c:18 i:11 w:15 c:12 large build +4 v. grap&trip
hp 27 ac:hide+shld 16, f:15, t:10, x:10 shapeshift f:7 r:1 w:5
fur {mv50 ac:15 f:15, t:10, x:10 s:22 d:11 c:18 i:11 w:15 c:12}
WF:bite, Heavy Lithoderms concentrate 10, spellcraft 6
attk bite +9 1d8+6 listen & spot 8, craft wd.wpn 4
attk sling +3 1d6+4 20x2 50' Woodland Stride, Trackless Stp
attk club +7 1d8+4 20x2 10' shille +8 2d8+5 20x2
0:dc12:4 detect magic x2, cure minor x2 **p:magicfang (+1)
1:dc13:3 faerie fire, entangle, shillegah
2:dc14:2 warp wood[3obj], barkskin[2ac]

A shapeshift variant druid, entangle should give him the two rounds he needs to buff.

Halfling Monk 5 mw.silk shirt, sling, rocks, fortune cookies
s:13 d:18 c:14 i:11 w:14 c:12 mv=30 & evasion & slowfall 20'
hp 35 ac: +1mnk bonus 17, t:17, f:14, x:14 f:7 r:9 w:7
IUS [1d6], StunFist[5], SwarmFight, FieryFist, WeaponFinesse
fist +8 1d6+1 20x2 **Clasp least energy prot r5Fire max25/day
attk sling +9 1d3+1 20x2 50' **Brute gauntlets 3/day +2 dmg
Swarm: +1 morale to hit per swarming ally, max dex mod bonus
attk flurry[full rnd] +7/+7 1d6+1+1d6F 20x2
escape 12, hide 16, sneak 14, listen 14 +2 vs. fear

These guys are comic relief untill you stack five of them in one square. They still aren't really dangerous then but it gets pretty hilarious.

Psychic Warrior 5 plate, mw.greatsword
s:18 d:10 c:16 i:13 w:16 c:11 f:7 r:1 w:4 mv=20
hp 48, pp 28 [max5] ac: plate 18[22] f:18 t:10 x:10
attk sword +8 2d6+6 19x2 **Elusive armband, 1/day no AoO
1:force screen[4ac], vigor[5hp/pp], dissipating touch[1d6/pp]
2:body adjustment[1d12 or 2d for 5pp], energy adaptation spec[r10]
concentrate 11, autohyp 10, swim 12[-7]

The missing feats are Psionic Body and lots and lots of Psionic Talent. This guy is tougher than he seems at first glance.

Dragon Shaman 5 chain.sht, wd.shld, mw.spears x3
s:16 d:14 c:16 i:10 w:12 c:10 mv=30
hp 44 ac: chain+shld 19 t:15 f:14 x:10 f:6 r:3 w:4
breath: 2d6 cold, 15' cone, ref:1/2 dc13, 1d4 rnds
aura[^]: you & allies, 30' continuous, activate/swap = swift action
^shield: 4dmg cold dmg shield ^vigor: fast heal 2 if bloody
^resist: r10 cold ^tough: DR 2/magic ^power: +2 melee dmg
attk spear +6 1d8+3 20x3 rng20' hide, mv.silent 13
**healing belt: 3/day charges, touch, 2d8 for 1 or 4d8 for 3

Five of these guys in formation are pretty annoying to PCs, you need to outright kill them or they'll get each other back up.

Fighter 5 human Xbower mw.lt.xbow, chain.sht, s.sword, tow.shld
s:11 d:18 c:16 i:11 w:14 c:12 **military uniforms
hp 40 ac:chain shirt 18, t:14 f:14 x:10 f:7 r:5 w:3
WF:lt.xbow, Point Blank, Precise, XbowSnipe, Imp.Shieldmate
attk lt.xbow +11 1d8+4 19x2 80' **10 tanglefoot bolts
attk s.sword +3 1d6 19x2 && +4 shld ac, +3 more w/shieldmate
jump 8, swim 8 [-12] **Clasp least energy prot r5Fire max25/day

And these guys are even more annoying, but be sure to use them in squads of 4 or more.

Dwarf Hexblade 5 mith.chain, mw.glaive, bow, worg mv=20
s:16 d:16 c:12 i:10 w:12 c:14 +4 vs spell, +2 vs pois
hp 35 ac: mith.chain 18 t:13 f:15 x:10 f:4 r:4 w:4 mettle
curse: 60' 2/day Will Neg dc 14 = -2 attk, dmg, save
attk glaive reach +10 1d10+4 20x3 [I]alertness
attk bow +8 1d8 rng 80' concentrate 9 [13], bluff 10
1:dc13:1 augment familiar [5 rnd], disguise self [+10 bluff]
Worg,med hp 30 ac: NatAC 17 t:12 f:15 x:10 attk bite +7 1d6+4
-> augmnt hp 38 ac: NatAC 19 t:14 f:15 x:10 attk bite +9 1d6+7
f:4[8] r:4[8] w:4[8] mv=50 s: 17 d:15 c:15 i:8 w:14 c:10
darkvision 60', low light, scent, evasion sneak, listen, spot 11

Two for the price of one, Improved Familiar: Worg is like having another mook.

[Balor01]

Allrighty. We have a grid ready. Perhaps we open another thread in Ongoing games (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=13) for first arena?

http://s10.postimg.org/fooji3aet/80154_grid_20_20_lg.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/fooji3aet/)

[Nightraiderx]

Just to make sure, so I can only use one splat book per PC but they can be different Splat books and core is Player's handbook, Player's handbook II and DMG correct?

[Balor01]

Just to make sure, so I can only use one splat book per PC but they can be different Splat books
Yes.


core is Player's handbook, Player's handbook II and DMG correct?

Actually I had in mind only PHB, but you are right. Do you think any critical abilities can be get from PHB 2 and DMG?

[eggynack]

Core, as it is commonly defined, is the PHB, DMG, and MM I. The PHB II is not in that group.

[Balor01]

@Nightraiderx
No PHB 2 then.

[Nightraiderx]

Ah, then that changes my plans for the sorc, was aiming for metamagic specialist, but Races of Dragon has more benefits for me.

[Balor01]

@Nightraiderx
Would metamagic specialist even work at levels 2, 4 and 6? Just curious.

[Nightraiderx]

With versatile caster a human sorc at lvl 2 can afford to cast one of his spells with a +1 metamagic feat 3+int times a day edit: without time increases
Four would remain about the same and 6th if I had access to PHB2 might've grabbed arcane thesis.

[Balor01]

Sooo ... will we make anything of this?

[Nightraiderx]

Tommorrow I have work off, I will have sufficient time to create these guys so that you can test them.