Subschools

[ideasmith]

I was looking at the list of subschools here (http://shadowend.pbworks.com/w/page/7570077/Magic), and found myself assigning core spells to the subschools therein. I ended up changing some of them around, and am posting them here on the off chance that someone might find them useful.

USING THESE SUBSCHOOLS

To get the best use of these subschools, you will need to do the following:

Adapt to any changes you are making to existing schools and subschools (the only core subschool which is changed herein is compulsion, the schools are not changed at all).

Adapt to any changes you are making to spells.

Note what rules you are using that interact with the compulsion subschool, and determine whether and how they interact with the emotion and inhibition subschools.

Decide which non-core spells you are using go into which subschool.

Write or find homebrew rules which interact with these subschools.

ABJURATION

Bulwark: A bulwark spell sorts targets out by alignment or plane of origin, or prevents such sorting.
Atonement, Banishment, Cloak of Chaos, Dismissal, Dispel Chaos, Dispel Evil, Dispel Good, Dispel Law, Forbiddance, Holy Aura, Magic Circle against Chaos, Magic Circle against Evil, Magic Circle against Good, Magic Circle against Law, Protection from Chaos, Protection from Evil, Protection from Good, Protection from Law, Shield of Law, Undetectable Alignment, Unholy Aura

Negation: A negating spell negates magical effects.
Antimagic Field, Break Enchantment, Dimensional Anchor, Dimensional Lock, Dispel Magic, Dispel Magic, Greater, Globe of Invulnerability, Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser, Mage's Disjunction, Mind Blank, Nondetection, Obscure Object, Protection from Spells, Remove Curse, Remove Fear, Spell Immunity, Spell Immunity, Greater, Spell Resistance, Spell Turning, Undetectable Alignment,

Protection: A protection spell protects creatures from harm.
Antilife Shell, Antiplant Shell, Endure Elements, Entropic Shield, Freedom, Freedom of Movement, Hide from Animals, Hide from Undead, Imprisonment, Protection from Arrows, Protection from Energy, Repel Metal or Stone, Repel Vermin, Repulsion, Resist Energy, Resistance, Sanctuary, Sequester, Shield, Shield of Faith, Shield Other, Stoneskin

Warding: A warding spell protects locations or objects from harm.,
Alarm, Arcane Lock, Explosive Runes, Fire Trap, Glyph of Warding, Glyph of Warding, Greater, Guards and Wards, Hold Portal, Mage's Private Sanctum, Prismatic Sphere, Prismatic Wall,


DIVINATION

Awareness: An awareness spell makes the caster or subject more aware of her surroundings for a while.
Analyze Dweomer, Arcane Sight, Arcane Sight, Greater, Comprehend Languages, Detect Animals or Plants, Detect Chaos, Detect Evil, Detect Good, Detect Law, Detect Magic, Detect Scrying, Detect Secret Doors, Detect Snares and Pits, Detect Thoughts, Detect Undead, Discern Lies, Find Traps, Foresight, Identify, Read Magic, See Invisibility, True Seeing

Communication: A communication spell enables the subject to speak or otherwise communicate to creatures and/or objects, and might also enable them to communicate to the subject.
Commune, Contact Other Plane, Prying Eyes, Prying Eyes, Greater, Speak with Animals, Speak with Plants, Stone Tell, Telepathic Bond, Tongues

Knowledge: A knowledge spell grants the recipient information.,
Augury, Commune with Nature, Detect Poison, Discern Location, Divination, Find the Path, Guidance, Know Direction, Legend Lore, Locate Creature, Locate Object, Moment of Prescience, Status, True Strike, Vision

Scrying: A scrying spell creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.
Any creature trained in Spellcraft can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Spellcraft check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell. Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked.
Arcane Eye, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Scrying, Scrying, Greater

ENCHANTMENT

Charm: A charm spell changes how the subject views you, typically making it see you as a good friend.
Charm Animal, Charm Monster, Charm Monster, Mass, Charm Person, Enthrall, Symbol of Persuasion

Compulsion: A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works. Some compulsion spells determine the subject’s actions or the effects on the subject, some compulsion spells allow you to determine the subject’s actions when you cast the spell, and others give you ongoing control over the subject.
Animal Messenger, Antipathy (+), Command, Command, Greater, Confusion, Confusion, Lesser, Demand, Dominate Animal, Dominate Monster, Dominate Person, Geas, Lesser, Geas/Quest, Hideous Laughter, Hypnotism, Insanity, Irresistible Dance, Modify Memory, Song of Discord, Suggestion, Suggestion, Mass, Symbol of Insanity, Sympathy (+)

Emotion: An emotion spell influences the subject's emotions.
Aid, Antipathy (+), Bane, Bless, Calm Animals, Calm Emotions, Crushing Despair, Good Hope, Heroism, Heroism, Greater, Hideous Laughter, Prayer, Rage, Sympathy (+)

Inhibition: An inhibition spell impedes the functioning of the target's mind, typically preventing the target from acting.
Animal Trance, Binding, Daze, Daze Monster, Deep Slumber, Feeblemind, Hold Animal, Hold Monster, Hold Monster, Mass, Hold Person, Hold Person, Mass, Lullaby, Mind Fog, Power Word Blind, Power Word Kill, Power Word Stun, Sleep, Symbol of Sleep, Symbol of Stunning, Touch of Idiocy


EVOCATION

Energy: An energy spell creates or manipulates energy, such as fire or electricity.
Burning Hands, Call Lightning, Call Lightning Storm, Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold, Delayed Blast Fireball, Fire Shield, Fire Storm, Fireball, Flame Blade, Flame Strike, Flaming Sphere, Freezing Sphere, Ice Storm, Lightning Bolt, Meteor Swarm, Polar Ray, Produce Flame, Ray of Frost, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Shocking Grasp, Shout, Shout, Greater, Sound Burst, Sympathetic Vibration, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice

Illumination: An illumination spell creates, negates, or manipulates light.
Continual Flame, Dancing Lights, Darkness, Daylight, Deeper Darkness, Faerie Fire, Flare, Helping Hand, Invisibility Purge, Light, Prismatic Spray, Searing Light, Sunbeam, Sunburst

Invocation: An invocation spell channels divine or other power.
Blasphemy, Chaos Hammer, Consecrate, Contingency, Desecrate, Dictum, Divine Favor, Divine Power, Hallow, Holy Smite, Holy Sword, Holy Word, Imbue with Spell Ability, Implosion, Miracle, Order's Wrath, Sending, Unhallow, Unholy Blight, Word of Chaos

Control: A control spell manipulates forces and moves inanimate objects.
Blade Barrier, Clenched Fist, Crushing Hand, Earthquake, Floating Disk, Forcecage, Forceful Hand, Grasping Hand, Gust of Wind, Interposing Hand, Mage's Sword, Magic Missile, Resilient Sphere, Spiritual Weapon, Telekinetic Sphere, Tiny Hut, Wall of Force, Whirlwind, Wind Wall

NECROMANCY

Impairment: An impairment spell creates a physical disability.
Blindness/Deafness, Chill Touch, Contagion, Gentle Repose, Ghoul Touch, Poison, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Symbol of Pain, Symbol of Weakness, Touch of Fatigue, Waves of Exhaustion, Waves of Fatigue

Life Force: A life force spell manipulates life energy.
Blight, Circle of Death, Death Knell, Deathwatch, Destruction, False Life, Finger of Death, Horrid Wilting, Inflict Critical Wounds, Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass, Inflict Light Wounds, Inflict Light Wounds, Mass, Inflict Minor Wounds, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass, Inflict Serious Wounds, Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass, Slay Living, Spectral Hand, Symbol of Death, Undeath to Death, Vampiric Touch, Wail of the Banshee

Spirit: A spirit spell manipulates the target's soul or confidence.
Astral Projection, Bestow Curse, Cause Fear, Clone, Curse Water, Death Ward, Doom, Energy Drain, Enervation, Eyebite, Fear, Harm, Magic Jar, Mark of Justice, Scare, Soul Bind, Speak with Dead, Symbol of Fear

Undeath:
An undeath spell creates or manipulates undead.
Animate Dead, Command Undead, Control Undead, Create Greater Undead, Create Undead, Disrupt Undead, Halt Undead, Undeath to Death

TRANSMUTATION

Alteration: An alteration spell changes the physical state of matter, or changes a creature into matter.
Blink, Disintegrate, Erase, Ethereal Jaunt, Etherealness, Fabricate, Flesh to Stone, Make Whole, Mending, Move Earth, Passwall, Polymorph Any Object (++), Purify Food and Drink, Rusting Grasp, Secret Page, Shatter, Shrink Item, Snare, Soften Earth and Stone, Spike Stones, Stone Shape, Stone To Flesh (+), Transmute Mud to Rock, Transmute Rock to Mud

Augment: An augment spell enhances the existing physical or mental abilities of an object or creature.
Bear's Endurance, Bear's Endurance, Mass, Bull's Strength, Bull's Strength, Mass, Cat's Grace, Cat's Grace, Mass, Eagle's Splendor, Eagle's Splendor, Mass, Expeditous Retreat, Fox's Cunning, Fox's Cunning, Mass, Glibness,Jump, Keen Edge, Longstrider, Magic Fang, Magic Fang, Greater, Magic Stone, Magic Vestment, Magic Weapon, Magic Weapon, Greater, Mnemonic Enhancer, Owl's Wisdom, Owl's Wisdom, Mass, Righteous Might, Stoneskin, Transformation, Virtue

Imbuement: An imbuement spell infuses an object or creature with magic, granting it new abilities or even the semblance of lif
Air Walk, Align Weapon, Animate Objects, Animate Rope, Arcane Lock, Awaken, Bless Water, Bless Weapon, Curse Water, Darkvision, Disrupting Weapon, Feather Fall, Flame Arrow, Fly, Levitate, Mage's Lucubration, Overland Flight, Pass Without Trace, Rope Trick, Spider Climb, Water Breathing, Water Walk

Manipulation: A manipulation spell manipulates dimensions, forces, or energy
Chill Metal, Control Water, Control Weather, Control Winds, Haste, Heat Metal, Knock, Mage Hand,
Message, Open/Close, Pyrotechnics, Quench, Reverse Gravity, Sculpt Sound, Slow, Telekinesis, Temporal Stasis, Time Stop, Whispering Wind

Polymorph: A polymorph spell changes a creature's body into a new form, or changes matter into a creature.
Alter Self, Animal Growth, Animal Shapes, Baleful Polymorph, Blink, Enlarge Person, Enlarge Person, Mass, Ethereal Jaunt, Etherealness, Gaseous Form, Giant Vermin, Iron Body, Meld Into Stone, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object (++), Reduce Animal, Reduce Person, Reduce Person, Mass, Reincarnate, Rightous Might, Shapechange, Statue, Stone To Flesh (+), Wind Walk

Vegetation: A vegetation spell physically changes or manipulates plant matter
Animate Plants, Barkskin, Changestaff, Command Plants, Control Plants, Diminish Plants, Entangle, Goodberry, Ironwood, Liveoak, Plant Growth, Polymorph Any Object (++), Repel Wood, Shillelagh, Spellstaff, Spike Growth, Transmute Metal to Wood, Tree Shape, Warp Wood, Wood Shape



CHANGE LOG

7/11/2013 Added descriptions to all subschools (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/11/2013 Changee name of banishment subschool to shibboleths (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/11/2013 Moved magic circle spells and forbiddance from Warding to Shibboleths (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/11/2013 Moved antilife shell, antiplant shell, repel metal or stone, repel vermin, and repulsion from wards to protection (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/11/2013 Moved explosive runes and fire trap from protection to wards (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/11/2013 Combined lore, precognition, and psychic into a single knowledge subschool (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/11/2013 Moved detect thoughts and discern lies to knowledge (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/11/2013 Moved prying eyes and greater prying eyes to knowledge
7/11/2013 Moved animal trance from compulsion to inhibition (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/11/2013 Moved calm animals and hideous laughter from compulsion to morale (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/11/2013 Changed name of force subschool to power (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/11/2013 Removed energy subschool, moving the air, earth and water spells to power and the fire spells to energy (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/11/2013 Changed name of death subschool to mortality (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/11/2013 Moved waves of exhaustion and waves of fatigue from life to flesh (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/11/2013 Moved clone from undeath to spirit (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/11/2013 Renamed blessings to imbuement (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/11/2013 Moved open/close from manipulation to artifice (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/11/2013 Moved chill metal, heat metal, move earth, purify food and drink, rusting grasp, spike growth, and spike stones from artifice to manipulation (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/11/2013 Moved goodberry from imbuement to artifice (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/13/2013 Added 'what you need to do to use this' (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/13/2013 Added antimagic field
7/13/2013 Renamed shibboleth to bulwark (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/13/2013 Added aid, animal messenger, bless, geas/quest, irresistable dance, power word blind, power word kill, power word stun, prayer, rage, touch of idiocy
7/13/2013 Renamed morale to emotions (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/13/2013 Moved antipathy and sympathy to emotions (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/13/2013 Reworded description of control (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/13/2013 Reworded description of undeath (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/13/2013 Removed undeath to death from mortality (it was already in undeath) (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/13/2013 Moved energy drain, and enervation to spirit (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/13/2013 Moved vampiric touch to Life (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/13/2013 Rearanged artifice/manipulation/polymorph based on target (Thank you, Vadskye, Deepbluediver.)
7/13/2013 Moved transformation from polymorph to imbuement (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/13/2013 Moved ironwood and shrink item from polymorph to artifice (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/13/2013 Moved diminish plants, plant growth, soften earth and stone, transmute metal to wood, transmute rock to mud, and transmute mud to rock from polymorph to manipulation (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/13/2013 Moved meld into stone from manipulation to mobility
7/15/2013 Added antipathy, sympathy, and hideous laughter to compulsion (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/15/2013 Added undeath to death to mortality (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/15/2013 Added polymorph any object to artifice (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/15/2013 Renamed body to impairment (Thank you, Tarkisflux.)
7/21/2013 Drastically rearanged Transmutation school (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/24/2013 Moved blight from impairment to mortality (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/24/2013 Moved eyebite from impairment to spirit (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/24/2013 Moved death ward from mortality to spirit (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/24/2013 Moved remainder of mortality subschool to life (Thank you, Tarkisflux.)
7/24/2013 Renamed undeath subschool to undead (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/24/2013 Renamed life school to life force (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/24/2013 Moved horrid wilting from impairment to life force (Thank you, Vadskye.)
7/24/2013 Moved harm from life force to spirit (Thank you, Tarkisflux.)
8/6/2013 Moved detect poison and status from awareness to knowledge (Thank you, Vadskye.)
8/6/2013 Moved comprehend languages and foresight from knowledge to awareness (Thank you, Vadskye.)
8/6/2013 Added communication subschool, with commune, contact other plane, prying eyes, prying eyes, greater, speak with animals, speak with plants, stone tell, telepathic bond, and tongues. (Thank you, Vadskye.)
8/6/2013 Revised descriptions of awareness and knowedge subschools (Thank you, Vadskye.)
8/28/2013 Added dimensional anchor, dimensional lock, and undetectable alignment to negation, making them double-subschool (Thank you Vladskye.)
8/28/2013 Moved freedom from negation to protection (Thank you Vladskye.)
8/28/2013 Added adapting to changes in spells to 'using these subschools' (Thank you Vladskye.)
8/28/2013 Removed legal notice
9/23/2013 Removed dimensional anchor and dimensional lock from bulwark subschool (Thank you, Vadskye.)
9/23/2013 Moved diminish plants, ironwood, plant growth, snare, spike growth, transmute metal to wood, warp wood, and wood shape from alteration to vegetation (Thank you, Vadskye.)
9/23/2013 Moved barkskin and shillelagh from augment to vegetation (Thank you, Vadskye.)
9/23/2013 Moved animate plants, entangle, and spellstaff from imbuement to vegetation (Thank you, Vadskye.)
9/23/2013 Moved command plants, control plants, and repel wood from manipulation to vegetation (Thank you, Vadskye.)
9/23/2013 Moved changestaff, liveoak and tree shape from alteration to vegetation. (Thank you, Vadskye.)
9/23/2013 Added polymorph any object to vegetation (Thank you, Vadskye.)

[Vadskye]

Increasing the number of subschools is a good idea, but there are a lot of inconsistencies in how spells are assigned; I don't think this is the best list of subschools to use. For example, the distinction between "Protection" and "Warding" is very hard to distinguish, and I struggle to see any difference at all between "Elemental" and "Energy". Some of these subschools (Force, Death, Morale) shouldn't be subschools at all, but descriptors.

Some spells feel strangely placed as well. Why are the Protection from X spells "Banishment"? Dimensional Anchor should be Negation; it is the direct opposite of Banishment. And so on.

I'm being pretty negative, so let me add that this is an excellent start, and I really love adding more descriptors and tags to D&D in this way. It's not easy work. But I think you'd have more success using different subschools that had more clear divisions.

[ideasmith]

Increasing the number of subschools is a good idea, but there are a lot of inconsistencies in how spells are assigned; I don't think this is the best list of subschools to use.

I am sure that a better list could be made, though I am not aware that any has.


For example, the distinction between "Protection" and "Warding" is very hard to distinguish,

If it protects a creature it's Protection; if it protects a location, its Warding. If it protects an object, look at how mobile the object is.


and I struggle to see any difference at all between "Elemental" and "Energy".

Air, earth, fire and water are Elemental; acid, cold, electricity, and sonic are Energy. If both fire and cold, its Energy.


Some of these subschools (Force, Death, Morale) shouldn't be subschools at all, but descriptors.

Since two of them have the same names as descriptors, and the third as a bonus type, new names do seem in order. Is you objection to the content of the subschools, or just the names?


Some spells feel strangely placed as well. Why are the Protection from X spells "Banishment"? Dimensional Anchor should be Negation; it is the direct opposite of Banishment. And so on.

For the same reason the Magic Circle spells should be in Banishment; I was putting the alignment and planar abjurations in one subschool. Perhaps another name change?


I'm being pretty negative, so let me add that this is an excellent start, and I really love adding more descriptors and tags to D&D in this way. It's not easy work.

An "excellent start" is the best I could hope for this early in the process. Thank you.


But I think you'd have more success using different subschools that had more clear divisions.

I'll gladly look at suggestions about what subschools. In any case, I need to add descriptions for all the new subschools.

[Vadskye]

I am sure that a better list could be made, though I am not aware that any has.
I make no claims that my list is perfect, but I think it is an easier starting point, at least. Spoilered for length, since it includes descriptions of each subschool:


1.3.3 - School/Schools (Subschool)
The next line describes the schools and subschools of magic that the spell belongs to. Almost every spell belongs to at least one of eight schools of magic. A school of magic is a group of related spells that work in similar ways. They are described below.
Some spells belong to more than one school of magic. Treat these spells for all purposes as if they were a member of both schools simultaneously. If you are prohibited from casting spells from a certain school, you cannot cast a spell which belongs to that school, even if it also belongs to another school. Likewise, any benefits which apply to casting spells from a specific school apply normally. If you have abilities which apply when casting spells from both schools that make up a spell, the abilities do not stack.
A small number of spells (limited wish, permanency, prestidigitation, and wish) are universal, belonging to no school.

Abjuration
Abjuration spells manipulate the raw essence of magic to protect allies or ward off foes. There are four subschools of abjuration spells.

Barrier: A barrier spell prohibits external forces or creatures from entering a protected area. Barriers cannot be used offensively. If you force the barrier against a force or creature it prohibits, you feel a discernible pressure against the barrier. If you continue to apply pressure, you end the spell. Repulsion is a barrier spell.

Negating: A negating spell negates magical effects. Dispel magic is a negating spell.

Shielding: A shielding spell protects creatures or objects from harm. Protection from evil is a shielding spell.

Warding: A warding spell protects an area from intrusion. If one warding spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Spot skill drops by 4. The DC drops by an additional 2 for each additional warding spell beyond the second. Glyph of warding is a warding spell.

Conjuration
Conjuration spells transport and create objects and creatures to aid you. A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range. There are three subschools of conjuration spells.

Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence. Acid arrow is a creation spell.

Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a manifestation of a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, the manifestation disappears. A summoned creature also disappears if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. Because summoning spells do not physically transport the actual creature or object, even if the manifestation is injured or destroyed, the original is unharmed. However, it takes 24 hours for the manifestation to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again. Most summoning spells, including the summon monster and summon nature's ally spells, will automatically summon a different creature of the same type should this occur.
When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.
Summon monster I is a summoning spell.

Teleportation: A teleportation spell transports one or more creatures or objects a great distance. The most powerful of these spells can cross planar boundaries. Unlike summoning spells, the transportation is (unless otherwise noted) one-way and not dispellable.
Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation.
Dimension door is a teleportation spell.

Divination
Divination spells enable you to learn secrets long forgotten, to predict the future, to find hidden things, and to foil deceptive spells. There are three subschools of divination spells.

Detection: A detection spell reveals objects, creatures, or effects within an area. Many detection spells have cone-shaped areas. These move with you and extend in the direction you look. The cone defines the area that you can examine each round. If you study the same area for multiple rounds, you can often gain additional information, as noted in the descriptive text for the spell. Detect evil is a detection spell.

Knowledge: A knowledge spell grants the recipient information. Most knowledge spells give knowledge about the present, but some can reveal information about the future as well. Comprehend languages is a knowledge spell.

Scrying: A scrying spell creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.
Any creature trained in Spellcraft can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Spellcraft check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell. Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked.

Enchantment
Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior or mental capabilities. Almost all enchantment spells are mind-affecting spells. There are four subschools of enchantment spells.

Beguilement: A beguilement spell influences the subject's opinions or emotions. Beguilement spells are the most subtle form of mental control, and a creature affected by such a spell usually does not realize that it is being manipulated until after the spell wears off – if it does at all. Charm person is a beguilement spell.

Compulsion: A compulsion spell compels the subject to act in a particular way or to have a particular opinion or emotion. Compulsion spells cannot completely control a creature's mind or actions, but they can limit its options. Sleep is a compulsion spell.

Domination: A domination spell determines the subject's actions. Especially powerful domination spells can grant you ongoing control over the subject. Command is a domination spell.

Phantasm: A phantasm spell creates a mental image that only the subject of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subject. It is a personalized mental impression. (It's all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see.)

Evocation
Evocation spells create and manipulate energy and forces or tap into divine or other powers to produce a desired end. In effect, they create energy or effects, but not physical objects, out of nothing. Many of these spells produce spectacular effects, and evocation spells can deal large amounts of damage. There are three subschools of evocation spells.

Channeling: A channeling spell channels divine or other power. Holy smite is a channeling spell.

Control: A control spell manipulates forces and moves inanimate objectss. Powerful control spells can manipulate forces on a large scale, even altering weather patterns. Gust of wind is a control spell.

Energy: An energy spell creates or manipulates energy, such as fire or electricity. Fireball is an energy spell.

Illusion
Illusion spells deceive the senses of others. They conceal things that exist or cause people to perceive things that do not exist. There are three subschools of illusion spells.

Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish, unless you prescribe exactly which sounds to make. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.
Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly unless combined with a real effect.
A figment's AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.
Silent image is a figment spell.

Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear. Invisibility is a glamer spell.

Shadow: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with definitive proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

Necromancy
Necromancy spells manipulate the power of life and death, as well as souls. Spells involving positive and negative energy make up a large part of this school. There are three subschools of necromancy spells.

Life: A life spell improves the subject's life force. Many life spells channel positive energy. Cure light wounds is a life spell.

Soul: A soul spell manipulates the subject's soul, either restoring it to its proper place or fragmenting it for terrible purposes. Raise dead is a soul spell.

Unlife: An unlife spell manipulates or destroys the subject's life force. Many unlife spells channel negative energy. Inflict light wounds is an unlife spell.

Transmutation
Transmutation spells change the properties of creatures and objects. There are three subschools of transmutation spells.

Alteration: An alteration spell physically changes the subject's form. Enlarge person is an alteration spell.

Animation: An animation spell grants a temporary "life" to the affected object.Animate objects is an animation spell.

Imbuement: An imbuement spell grants the subject a new ability or improves its existing abilities. Totemic power is an imbuement spell.

If it protects a creature it's Protection; if it protects a location, its Warding. If it protects an object, look at how mobile the object is.
Ah. I understand the reasoning now - but I don't think it's as intuitive as it could be. This is a bit subjective, but I feel that glyph of warding and explosive runes have much more in common than, say, explosive runes and sanctuary. It would be very confusing to me as a player to have the subschools divided up in a way that made that seem untrue.


Air, earth, fire and water are Elemental; acid, cold, electricity, and sonic are Energy. If both fire and cold, its Energy.
Interesting. I can definitely see the logic there. But I think it makes things more confusing overall: "Resist Energy" and similar effects become difficult to understand, because fire is both energy and not energy depending on what specific definition of "energy" you are using.


Since two of them have the same names as descriptors, and the third as a bonus type, new names do seem in order. Is you objection to the content of the subschools, or just the names?
Neither, actually; you seem to have chosen the spells fairly well, and the names are precisely descriptive of the spells' effects. What I object to is that they are subschools at all, instead of just being descriptors. Every morale spell should also be a compulsion; why not just leave them as compulsions and make morale a descriptor? That way "immunity to compulsion" works properly. Also, not every death spell is Necromancy (though the vast majority are); keeping death as a descriptor lets you put it on spells from other schools. Likewise, there are force effects split among several schools - mage armor and shield being two of the most obvious. If force becomes an evocation subschool, what happens to those spells? Better to keep force as just being a descriptor, I think. In general, I would never want a subschool and a descriptor to have virtually identical meanings; they express distinct concepts.


For the same reason the Magic Circle spells should be in Banishment; I was putting the alignment and planar abjurations in one subschool. Perhaps another name change?
If you want to keep that same theme, I'd recommend a change of names; Banishment sounds much more offensive than the current theme. Honestly, when I was making my system and trying to develop really strong school identities, spells like Banishment and Dimensional Anchor gave me a lot of trouble. Perhaps Hedging or Sequestration? Or just make Planar a descriptor, tag the appropraite spells with the Planar descriptor, and put them where they would otherwise belong. If you think you can give them a coherent subschool, go for it. The only way I could be happy with truly coherent school identities was to introduce dual-school spells and make other tweaks that are probably more than you are interested in doing (but which I highly recommend, naturally).


An "excellent start" is the best I could hope for this early in the process. Thank you.
You take criticism like a champion. :smallsmile:


I'll gladly look at suggestions about what subschools. In any case, I need to add descriptions for all the new subschools.
Ooh, I have ideas on descriptors too! Here's what I use:

The descriptors are acid, air, chaotic, cold, darkness, death, disease, earth, electricity, evil, fear, fire, force, good, language-dependent, lawful, light, mind-affecting, morale, negative, object-affecting, planar, poison, positive, size-affecting, sonic, trap, and water.

Many of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on.


Air spells do not function in environments without air.
Fire spells do not function underwater.
Language-dependent spells use intelligible language as a medium for communication. If the target cannot understand or cannot hear what the caster of a language-dependant spell says, the spell fails.
Mind-affecting spells work only against creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher.
Size-affecting spells alter a creature's size. Multiple size increasing or size decreasing effects never stack. If a creature is affected by both size-increasing and size-decreasing effects, they cancel out on a one for one basis, and any remaining effect occurs normally.
Trap spells do not have obvious effects immediately. They can be detected with the Spot skill. The DC to detect a trap spell is 25 \add spell level. Many, but not all, traps can be disabled with the Disable Device skill. If it can be disabled, the DC is 25 \add spell level.

[ideasmith]

Edit: I have now revised my original post, based mostly on Vadskye's input.


I make no claims that my list is perfect, but I think it is an easier starting point, at least. Spoilered for length, since it includes descriptions of each subschool:

Since I am replying to each section separately, I removed the spoilers.



1.3.3 - School/Schools (Subschool)
The next line describes the schools and subschools of magic that the spell belongs to. Almost every spell belongs to at least one of eight schools of magic. A school of magic is a group of related spells that work in similar ways. They are described below.
Some spells belong to more than one school of magic. Treat these spells for all purposes as if they were a member of both schools simultaneously. If you are prohibited from casting spells from a certain school, you cannot cast a spell which belongs to that school, even if it also belongs to another school. Likewise, any benefits which apply to casting spells from a specific school apply normally. If you have abilities which apply when casting spells from both schools that make up a spell, the abilities do not stack.
A small number of spells (limited wish, permanency, prestidigitation, and wish) are universal, belonging to no school.

I am not interested in messing with the schools, nor with the Conjuration and Illusion subschools. Since you present these as easier to assign spells to, I am incorporating my guesses as to which spell goes where.


Abjuration
Abjuration spells manipulate the raw essence of magic to protect allies or ward off foes. There are four subschools of abjuration spells.

Barrier: A barrier spell prohibits external forces or creatures from entering a protected area. Barriers cannot be used offensively. If you force the barrier against a force or creature it prohibits, you feel a discernible pressure against the barrier. If you continue to apply pressure, you end the spell. Repulsion is a barrier spell.

Negating: A negating spell negates magical effects. Dispel magic is a negating spell.

Shielding: A shielding spell protects creatures or objects from harm. Protection from evil is a shielding spell.

Warding: A warding spell protects an area from intrusion. If one warding spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Spot skill drops by 4. The DC drops by an additional 2 for each additional warding spell beyond the second. Glyph of warding is a warding spell.

The apparent differences from my version are the Barrier subschool (worth considering), the absence of any banishment school (where would atonement, banishment, and dismissal go?), and minor name changes. Nice descriptions, I'll be borrowing from them.


Divination
Divination spells enable you to learn secrets long forgotten, to predict the future, to find hidden things, and to foil deceptive spells. There are three subschools of divination spells.

Detection: A detection spell reveals objects, creatures, or effects within an area. Many detection spells have cone-shaped areas. These move with you and extend in the direction you look. The cone defines the area that you can examine each round. If you study the same area for multiple rounds, you can often gain additional information, as noted in the descriptive text for the spell. Detect evil is a detection spell.

Knowledge: A knowledge spell grants the recipient information. Most knowledge spells give knowledge about the present, but some can reveal information about the future as well. Comprehend languages is a knowledge spell.

Scrying: A scrying spell creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.
Any creature trained in Spellcraft can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Spellcraft check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell. Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked.

The apparent differences from my version are combining Psychic, Lore, and Precognition into a single subschool, moving detect thoughts and discern lies into awareness, and changing the names. (All worth considering.) Good descriptions too.


Enchantment
Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior or mental capabilities. Almost all enchantment spells are mind-affecting spells. There are four subschools of enchantment spells.

Beguilement: A beguilement spell influences the subject's opinions or emotions. Beguilement spells are the most subtle form of mental control, and a creature affected by such a spell usually does not realize that it is being manipulated until after the spell wears off – if it does at all. Charm person is a beguilement spell.

Compulsion: A compulsion spell compels the subject to act in a particular way or to have a particular opinion or emotion. Compulsion spells cannot completely control a creature's mind or actions, but they can limit its options. Sleep is a compulsion spell.

Domination: A domination spell determines the subject's actions. Especially powerful domination spells can grant you ongoing control over the subject. Command is a domination spell.

Phantasm: A phantasm spell creates a mental image that only the subject of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subject. It is a personalized mental impression. (It's all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see.)

The apparent differences from my version are moving the Morale spells and song of discord to Charm (the existing Charm subschool works fine and I choose not to mess with it), recombining Inhibition with Compulsion while splitting off Domination (leaves compulsion larger than I like), and changing the name 'Charm' to 'Beguilement'.


Evocation
Evocation spells create and manipulate energy and forces or tap into divine or other powers to produce a desired end. In effect, they create energy or effects, but not physical objects, out of nothing. Many of these spells produce spectacular effects, and evocation spells can deal large amounts of damage. There are three subschools of evocation spells.

Channeling: A channeling spell channels divine or other power. Holy smite is a channeling spell.

Control: A control spell manipulates forces and moves inanimate objectss. Powerful control spells can manipulate forces on a large scale, even altering weather patterns. Gust of wind is a control spell.

Energy: An energy spell creates or manipulates energy, such as fire or electricity. Fireball is an energy spell.

The apparent differences from my version are moving the earth and air spells to the force subschool and the fire spells to the energy subschool (good idea), combining the Illumination subschool with the energy subschool (making the energy subschool larger than I like, and Illumination stands well on its own), and changing some names(Changing Force to Control is badly needed). (Contingency is a headache here, but its not like I was doing any better with it.) Again, nice descriptions.


Necromancy
Necromancy spells manipulate the power of life and death, as well as souls. Spells involving positive and negative energy make up a large part of this school. There are three subschools of necromancy spells.

Life: A life spell improves the subject's life force. Many life spells channel positive energy. Cure light wounds is a life spell.

Soul: A soul spell manipulates the subject's soul, either restoring it to its proper place or fragmenting it for terrible purposes. Raise dead is a soul spell.

Unlife: An unlife spell manipulates or destroys the subject's life force. Many unlife spells channel negative energy. Inflict light wounds is an unlife spell.

The apparent differences from my version are moving my Death, Flesh, and Life subschools into the Undeath subschool, moving death ward into the Life subschool, moving clone into the Soul Subschool, and changing some Undeath to Unlife. (Leaving a huge and vague 'subschool' dominating this school. No thanks.)


Transmutation
Transmutation spells change the properties of creatures and objects. There are three subschools of transmutation spells.

Alteration: An alteration spell physically changes the subject's form. Enlarge person is an alteration spell.

Animation: An animation spell grants a temporary "life" to the affected object.Animate objects is an animation spell.

Imbuement: An imbuement spell grants the subject a new ability or improves its existing abilities. Totemic power is an imbuement spell.

The apparent differences from my version are splitting my Artifice, Manipulation, and Mobility subschools amongst the remaining subschools, plus the added Animation subschool (making the school that needs subdividing the most the one that's subdivided the least, and leaving chill metal, heat metal, and erase hard to place), and changing some names (I like 'Imbuement' better than 'Blessings'). More nice descriptions.


Ah. I understand the reasoning now - but I don't think it's as intuitive as it could be. This is a bit subjective, but I feel that glyph of warding and explosive runes have much more in common than, say, explosive runes and sanctuary. It would be very confusing to me as a player to have the subschools divided up in a way that made that seem untrue.

So, move the object-only protections to Wards? That works.


Interesting. I can definitely see the logic there. But I think it makes things more confusing overall: "Resist Energy" and similar effects become difficult to understand, because fire is both energy and not energy depending on what specific definition of "energy" you are using.

Since the Elemental subschool can be split between Energy and Power without making either overlarge, I will be dumping it.


Neither, actually; you seem to have chosen the spells fairly well, and the names are precisely descriptive of the spells' effects. What I object to is that they are subschools at all, instead of just being descriptors. Every morale spell should also be a compulsion; why not just leave them as compulsions and make morale a descriptor? That way "immunity to compulsion" works properly. Also, not every death spell is Necromancy (though the vast majority are); keeping death as a descriptor lets you put it on spells from other schools. Likewise, there are force effects split among several schools - mage armor and shield being two of the most obvious. If force becomes an evocation subschool, what happens to those spells? Better to keep force as just being a descriptor, I think. In general, I would never want a subschool and a descriptor to have virtually identical meanings; they express distinct concepts.

Death and Force: I never had the slightest intention of removing the descriptors of those names. I am renaming 'Death' to 'Mortality' and taking your suggestion to rename 'Force' to 'Power'.

Morale: The spells in the Morale subschool fit neither the PH/SRD definition of 'compulsion' nor the dictionary definition. I see no reason for something called 'immunity to compulsion' to affect them.


If you want to keep that same theme, I'd recommend a change of names; Banishment sounds much more offensive than the current theme. Honestly, when I was making my system and trying to develop really strong school identities, spells like Banishment and Dimensional Anchor gave me a lot of trouble. Perhaps Hedging or Sequestration? Or just make Planar a descriptor, tag the appropraite spells with the Planar descriptor, and put them where they would otherwise belong. If you think you can give them a coherent subschool, go for it.

Spent some time with a thesaurus, came up with 'Shibboleths'.


The only way I could be happy with truly coherent school identities was to introduce dual-school spells and make other tweaks that are probably more than you are interested in doing (but which I highly recommend, naturally).

They are indeed.


You take criticism like a champion. :smallsmile:

I've had practice.


Ooh, I have ideas on descriptors too! Here's what I use:

I actually said "descriptions", and thank you for providing so many good ones. I would prefer that discussion of descriptors - beyond their relation to subschools - take place in another thread.

[vinihigino]

If it protects a creature it's Protection; if it protects a location, its Warding. If it protects an object, look at how mobile the object is.

It would be nice, in the first post, if you put some brief explanation about the subschools.
I liked the transmutation ones.

[Vadskye]

I am not interested in messing with the schools, nor with the Conjuration and Illusion subschools. Since you present these as easier to assign spells to, I am incorporating my guesses as to which spell goes where.
Makes sense to me. If you're sticking with totally core allocation of spell schools (keeping the cures in Conjuration, for example), it will probably be better to subdivide some of the subschools differently.


The apparent differences from my version are the Barrier subschool (worth considering), the absence of any banishment school (where would atonement, banishment, and dismissal go?), and minor name changes. Nice descriptions, I'll be borrowing from them.
Atonement become Evocation (Channeling), and banishment and dismissal became dual-school Abjuration/Conjuration (Teleportation) [Planar]. In the absense of those changes, you'll need a subschool for the banishment/dismissal stuff, though I don't think you'll find a subschool for atonement where it fits nicely. Maybe Negation?


The apparent differences from my version are combining Psychic, Lore, and Precognition into a single subschool, moving detect thoughts and discern lies into awareness, and changing the names. (All worth considering.) Good descriptions too.
Thanks. Knowledge is now one of the larger subschools, but I couldn't find a way to divide it that I really liked. And I actually really like Awareness; that solves a problem I was having where I couldn't figure out where to put true seeing and a couple of other spells. That name clarifies that it belongs firmly in the Awareness subschool, as they should. Good call!


The apparent differences from my version are moving the Morale spells and song of discord to Charm (the existing Charm subschool works fine and I choose not to mess with it), recombining Inhibition with Compulsion while splitting off Domination (leaves compulsion larger than I like), and changing the name 'Charm' to 'Beguilement'.
One benefit of renaming Charm is that it Beguilement can include a broader range of "subtle" mental manipulations. For example, I put enthrall and mind fog into beguilement.

Also, one of the reasons that Compulsion is so large is that it is you have effects which I consider Dominations in there. Here's a question: what is the conceptual difference between command and hold person? The distinction you draw is based on their effect: one spell makes them do something, and the other stops them from doing things. I don't think effect-based distinctions are a good idea, though. For example, this makes confusion difficult to categorize; sometimes it forces the subject to do something, and other times it inhibits the subject from doing anything (except babbling). Instead, subschools should be based on cause or method. Both command and hold person assert total control over a subject's actions; therefore, they belong together. In contrast, confusion and suggestion compel the subject to act in a certain way, but don't take total control. That's why they are compulsions.

Incidentally, this also brings to mind a possibility for the Morale school: change the name to Emotion (or something) and add in all spells that involve emotions, such as antipathy and sympathy. That way, the school has a strong, cause-based identity which is unique from the Morale descriptor (while still being very closely tied to it). It also takes away a few more things from the overly large Compulsion school.


The apparent differences from my version are moving the earth and air spells to the force subschool and the fire spells to the energy subschool (good idea), combining the Illumination subschool with the energy subschool (making the energy subschool larger than I like, and Illumination stands well on its own), and changing some names(Changing Force to Control is badly needed). (Contingency is a headache here, but its not like I was doing any better with it.) Again, nice descriptions.
I actually had force in Energy and was struggling to figure out where to put it, if you can believe it. It definitely belongs better in Control. (My Control also includes telekinesis and Control Weather effects. It won't make much sense to include the line about "moving inanimate objects" if you keep all of the "moving inanimate objects" effects in Transmutation.) I have no problem with the Illumination subschool; I actually really like it. And the reason you are having so much trouble with contingency is that it is one of the most quintessentially Abjuration spells there is. :smalltongue:


The apparent differences from my version are moving my Death, Flesh, and Life subschools into the Undeath subschool, moving death ward into the Life subschool, moving clone into the Soul Subschool, and changing some Undeath to Unlife. (Leaving a huge and vague 'subschool' dominating this school. No thanks.)
I made a lot of changes/additions to necromancy spells; if you leave the cures and restoration effects in Conjuration, then Life is definitely too small of a subschool to be opposed by Unlife. I actually really like your subschools here. My only complaint is that "copying iconic undead abilities" feels like a very strange identity. Also, there is very little fluff difference that I know of between an inflict spell and a enervation spell; they both involve filling the subject with negative energy. I would be much happier just putting those spells in Life and keeping Undeath as the "messing around with undead" subschool.


The apparent differences from my version are splitting my Artifice, Manipulation, and Mobility subschools amongst the remaining subschools, plus the added Animation subschool (making the school that needs subdividing the most the one that's subdivided the least, and leaving chill metal, heat metal, and erase hard to place), and changing some names (I like 'Imbuement' better than 'Blessings'). More nice descriptions.
Erase is pretty easy; that's definitely alteration. Heat/chill metal is much more difficult, though. I made those Evocation; you would probably want to make those Manipulation.

Actually, let's look at some of the subschool identities. There's a bit of a problem.


Evocation (Energy): "Create or manipulates energy"
Evocation (Power): "Manipulates forces and moves inanimate objects"
Transmutation (Manipulation): "Manipulates matter or energy"

Can you see a difference between Transmutation (Manipulation) and the Evocation subschools? I can't. I'm not sure how to fix this, though...

Anyway, I agree that Transmutation needs more subdivision, particularly if you keep the control weather effects in that school. But I'm not sure what you have is there yet. My objection to effect-based distinctions comes to the fore here again. You divide artifice from imbuement on the basis of their effects: specifically, artifice always affects objects, while imbuement affects creatures. However, this creates the very unintuitive result that magic fang and magic weapon are in separate subschools. This makes even less sense when you consider that magic weapon can actually be cast on a creature to duplicate the effects of magic fang. They need to be in the same subschool.

Also, I have only a vague idea of what distinguishes Polymorph from the other schools. Why is stone shape in Artifice, but soften earth and stone in Polymorph? That feels all sorts of strange to me. Also, transformation doesn't actually change your shape, just your abilities, so wouldn't it be an Imbuement?

So far, I'm mostly just poking at oddities without actually coming up with solutions. Transmutation is a bloody difficult school to define... I agree that Alteration and Imbuement, as I defined them, are both massive subschools that should be divided - but they are also very consistently defined, and it should be very clear what spell would belong to what subschool. I think it would be easier to try to parse distinctions within those subschools - perhaps splitting Imbuement into "physical" and "magical" imbuements - than to create wholly new subschools.


So, move the object-only protections to Wards? That works.
Object and location-based, yeah.


Death and Force: I never had the slightest intention of removing the descriptors of those names. I am renaming 'Death' to 'Mortality' and taking your suggestion to rename 'Force' to 'Power'.
I actually don't think I mentioned "Power" anywhere. :smalltongue: You came up with at on your own. With that said, it fits well enough, though I will still use Control for that subschool.


Morale: The spells in the Morale subschool fit neither the PH/SRD definition of 'compulsion' nor the dictionary definition. I see no reason for something called 'immunity to compulsion' to affect them.
Hm... I can see that. I was mentally defining compulsion as being a compulsion to act or feel in a certain way (which could fit "An irresistible urge to behave in a certain way). But it doesn't have to be that way, and it is probably better overall with your definition.


Spent some time with a thesaurus, came up with 'Shibboleths'.
"A word or pronunciation that distinguishes people of one group or class from those of another."? :smallconfused:


I actually said "descriptions", and thank you for providing so many good ones. I would prefer that discussion of descriptors - beyond their relation to subschools - take place in another thread.
Oh. :smallredface: So you did. Carry on.

This has actually been really productive; I like several of your ideas better than what I had. Thank you very much!

[Wintermut3]

I struggle to see any difference at all between "Elemental" and "Energy". Some of these subschools (Force, Death, Morale) shouldn't be subschools at all, but descriptors.

If it comes from an elemental plane it's elemental, if it comes from a quasi-elemental plane or parelemental plane it's an energy.

[TuggyNE]

If it comes from an elemental plane it's elemental, if it comes from a quasi-elemental plane or parelemental plane it's an energy.

Wow, can you come up with anything more nitpicky? :smalleek:

[Vortalism]

Quick question:

Where's illusion? :smalleek:

[Vadskye]

Quick question:

Where's illusion? :smalleek:
Illusion and Conjuration aren't listed because ideasmith decided the original subschools were good.

[Deepbluediver]

I've had questions about the various schools and subschools myself in the past, and I certainly like some of the ideas and explanations. I tend to go farther by rearranging what schools the spells are in, since I consider the listed ones to be poorly defined and often contradictory.
I will probably still steal a few for my magic fix though. :smallbiggrin:


If it protects a creature it's Protection; if it protects a location, its Warding. If it protects an object, look at how mobile the object is.

Abjuration is one of the schools I've had the most issues with, since it seems to be defined more by intent than by mechanics. One of the few significant categories that wouldn't fit anywhere else are the anti-magic type of spells, or spells that target other magical effects. I recall at least one spell in a non-core supplement that dealt damage based on how many enchantments the target was under. I couldn't think of any other school to put it in, but it's pretty much the exact opposite of a defensive spell.

For a lot of the rest, it seems more like its just opposite-other-school effect.
Like Banishment is a reverse-conjuration and Energy-protection is reverse Evocation. But then I look at a whole bunch of Divination vs. Illusion effects, and it seems like some of them are directly opposed as well (hiding/falsehood vs. knowledge/truth), or how the postitive/negative energy spells are in different schools. So I'm not sure what the perfect answer is.


Air, earth, fire and water are Elemental; acid, cold, electricity, and sonic are Energy.

Are there a lot of spells with the [Water] Descriptor? or [Earth]? Unless its the Summon Monster line I don't recall it showing up much in core; seems like something you find in one particular splatbook *cough*Stormwrack*cough* and then rarely anywhere else.

And this might be slightly off topic, but are [Acid] spells actually summoning acid? If this is just a type of energy that mimics the chemical reaction then its definitely evocation, but if it's actually creating acid then shouldn't it be Conjuration? (this is what I mean when I say I find the RAW school designations to have issues)

I definitely like the idea of somehow separating out the invisible-force style effects (Bigby's hand, etc) from the energy ones though.


A few other random thoughts-

I've never liked the Charm school, because it's so limited. In the online version of the spell Index, there's about 5 or 6 spells in that subschool, total, and 100+ compulsions. Would you consider combining the Charm and Morale stuff, under the idea that it all affects the way you think?

Also, the inhibitions seem sort of like reverse-compulsions (you shall do this vs. you shall NOT do this) and even then you've got spells that will force some one to sleep. I support dividing things where necessary; I'm not as much of a fan of pointless sub-divisions for their own sake.

Necromancy- I favor shifting the healing spells into this school, to keep all the positive/negative energy effects together. And it feels kind of strange that you keep the healing and raise-dead type of effects in Conjuration, but have categories like "Life" and "Spirit" in Necromancy.

Transmutation- I like the names, particularly with the time-based effects in "Mobility". But again, the poor school-associations seem to crop up again. How are Chill Metal and Quench not energy-based effects? Why are the Transmute spells Polymorph instead of Artifice? Why are Reduce/Enlarge Polymorph instead of Imbuement?



Conclusion
My experience is that the various schools come up less often in the game than I would expect, unless someone is playing a Wizard. The various subschools even less so. I would probably combine some of your subschools to keep it to just 2 or 3 per school, rather than 4 or 5. Being overly specific seems to add a lot of complexity without much benefit, and a lot of the spells look like the would overlap or qualify for multiple subschools.

[ideasmith]

Edit: I have revised the original post again.


It would be nice, in the first post, if you put some brief explanation about the subschools.

Already done; mostly swiped or adapted from Vadskye's descriptions.


I liked the transmutation ones.

Thank you.


Makes sense to me. If you're sticking with totally core allocation of spell schools (keeping the cures in Conjuration, for example), it will probably be better to subdivide some of the subschools differently.


Atonement become Evocation (Channeling), and banishment and dismissal became dual-school Abjuration/Conjuration (Teleportation) [Planar]. In the absense of those changes, you'll need a subschool for the banishment/dismissal stuff, though I don't think you'll find a subschool for atonement where it fits nicely. Maybe Negation?

I think I'll be keeping the (renamed) shibboleths subschool.


Thanks. Knowledge is now one of the larger subschools, but I couldn't find a way to divide it that I really liked. And I actually really like Awareness; that solves a problem I was having where I couldn't figure out where to put true seeing and a couple of other spells. That name clarifies that it belongs firmly in the Awareness subschool, as they should. Good call!

Thank you.


One benefit of renaming Charm is that it Beguilement can include a broader range of "subtle" mental manipulations. For example, I put enthrall and mind fog into beguilement.

One benefit of leaving Charm as is is that rules involving the Charm subschool, from whatever splatbooks/third party products/homebrew, will be compatible with the existing Charm subschool. (BTW, enthrall is already in the Charm subschool)


Also, one of the reasons that Compulsion is so large is that it is you have effects which I consider Dominations in there. Here's a question: what is the conceptual difference between command and hold person?

Conceptually, one of the spells forces the target to stay still while the other takes away the target's ability to move. The Compulsion spells force the target, the Inhibition spells disable the target.


The distinction you draw is based on their effect: one spell makes them do something, and the other stops them from doing things. I don't think effect-based distinctions are a good idea, though. For example, this makes confusion difficult to categorize; sometimes it forces the subject to do something, and other times it inhibits the subject from doing anything (except babbling).

More likely forcing to subject to refrain from doing anything except babble. Cause/method-based distinctions can be difficult to categorize because the causes/methods can be difficult to determine.


Instead, subschools should be based on cause or method. Both command and hold person assert total control over a subject's actions; therefore, they belong together. In contrast, confusion and suggestion compel the subject to act in a certain way, but don't take total control. That's why they are compulsions.

If suggestion is in your version of compulsion, then it is even larger than I thought.

How does commmand count as taking total control, especially since suggestion doesn't?


Incidentally, this also brings to mind a possibility for the Morale school: change the name to Emotion (or something) and add in all spells that involve emotions, such as antipathy and sympathy. That way, the school has a strong, cause-based identity which is unique from the Morale descriptor (while still being very closely tied to it). It also takes away a few more things from the overly large Compulsion school.

I was already moving emotion-spells from Compulsion to Morale, but had missed that antipathy & sympathy affected emotions as well as behavior. And Emotion is indeed a better name.


I actually had force in Energy and was struggling to figure out where to put it, if you can believe it. It definitely belongs better in Control. (My Control also includes telekinesis and Control Weather effects. It won't make much sense to include the line about "moving inanimate objects" if you keep all of the "moving inanimate objects" effects in Transmutation.) I have no problem with the Illumination subschool; I actually really like it. And the reason you are having so much trouble with contingency is that it is one of the most quintessentially Abjuration spells there is. :smalltongue:

Good points.


I made a lot of changes/additions to necromancy spells; if you leave the cures and restoration effects in Conjuration, then Life is definitely too small of a subschool to be opposed by Unlife. I actually really like your subschools here. My only complaint is that "copying iconic undead abilities" feels like a very strange identity. Also, there is very little fluff difference that I know of between an inflict spell and a enervation spell; they both involve filling the subject with negative energy. I would be much happier just putting those spells in Life and keeping Undeath as the "messing around with undead" subschool.

That would be energy drain, enervation, and vampiric touch that get moved. Though with Life being all about hit points, I think the first two would fit better in Spirit.


Erase is pretty easy; that's definitely alteration. Heat/chill metal is much more difficult, though. I made those Evocation; you would probably want to make those Manipulation. Actually, let's look at some of the subschool identities. There's a bit of a problem.

Can you see a difference between Transmutation (Manipulation) and the Evocation subschools? I can't. I'm not sure how to fix this, though...

This one looks like a problem with schools that can't be handled just by creating new subschools.


Anyway, I agree that Transmutation needs more subdivision, particularly if you keep the control weather effects in that school. But I'm not sure what you have is there yet. My objection to effect-based distinctions comes to the fore here again. You divide artifice from imbuement on the basis of their effects: specifically, artifice always affects objects, while imbuement affects creatures. However, this creates the very unintuitive result that magic fang and magic weapon are in separate subschools. This makes even less sense when you consider that magic weapon can actually be cast on a creature to duplicate the effects of magic fang. They need to be in the same subschool.

From the spell description for magic weapon: "You can't cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead see magic fang)." (Monks have a special ability that lets their unarmed strikes be treated as manufactured weapons.)

It is somewhat unintuitive, but I am not seeing a better way to sort transformation.


Also, I have only a vague idea of what distinguishes Polymorph from the other schools. Why is stone shape in Artifice, but soften earth and stone in Polymorph? That feels all sorts of strange to me.

The fix I'm considering: Limit polymorph to spells where the subject is or is turned into a creature.


Also, transformation doesn't actually change your shape, just your abilities, so wouldn't it be an Imbuement?

Good point.


So far, I'm mostly just poking at oddities without actually coming up with solutions. Transmutation is a bloody difficult school to define... I agree that Alteration and Imbuement, as I defined them, are both massive subschools that should be divided - but they are also very consistently defined, and it should be very clear what spell would belong to what subschool. I think it would be easier to try to parse distinctions within those subschools - perhaps splitting Imbuement into "physical" and "magical" imbuements - than to create wholly new subschools.


Object and location-based, yeah.

For now, I'm going with Artifice for objects; Manipulation for matter/energy/locations; Polymorph for creatures.


I actually don't think I mentioned "Power" anywhere. :smalltongue: You came up with at on your own. With that said, it fits well enough, though I will still use Control for that subschool.

I meant "Control". Oops.


"A word or pronunciation that distinguishes people of one group or class from those of another."? :smallconfused:

I should have checked a dictionary first. Now checking both both thesaurus and dictionary, purity and bulwark look like posibilities.


Oh. :smallredface: So you did. Carry on.

This has actually been really productive; I like several of your ideas better than what I had. Thank you very much!

You are welcome. And thank you.





I've had questions about the various schools and subschools myself in the past, and I certainly like some of the ideas and explanations. I tend to go farther by rearranging what schools the spells are in, since I consider the listed ones to be poorly defined and often contradictory.
I will probably still steal a few for my magic fix though. :smallbiggrin:

Use for creating homebrew is what these subschool are for.


Abjuration is one of the schools I've had the most issues with, since it seems to be defined more by intent than by mechanics. One of the few significant categories that wouldn't fit anywhere else are the anti-magic type of spells, or spells that target other magical effects. I recall at least one spell in a non-core supplement that dealt damage based on how many enchantments the target was under. I couldn't think of any other school to put it in, but it's pretty much the exact opposite of a defensive spell.

For a lot of the rest, it seems more like its just opposite-other-school effect.
Like Banishment is a reverse-conjuration and Energy-protection is reverse Evocation. But then I look at a whole bunch of Divination vs. Illusion effects, and it seems like some of them are directly opposed as well (hiding/falsehood vs. knowledge/truth), or how the postitive/negative energy spells are in different schools. So I'm not sure what the perfect answer is.

If I leave the schools as is for these subschools, they will be useful to both those who leave the schools alone and those who change them, since the latter will have practice re-assigning spells. If I link them to some rearanging of the schools, they will only be useful to those who change the schools.


Are there a lot of spells with the [Water] Descriptor? or [Earth]? Unless its the Summon Monster line I don't recall in showing up much in core; seems like something you find in one particular splatbook *cough*Stormwrack*cough* and then rarely anywhere else.

And this might be slightly off topic, but are [Acid] spells actually summoning acid? If this is just a type of energy that mimics the chemical reaction then its definitely evocation, but if it's actually creating acid then shouldn't it be Conjuration? (this is what I mean when I say I find the RAW school designations to have issues)

The [water] and [acid] descriptors were listed to make the pattern clear, not to imply that there were or should be Evocation spells with those descriptors.

The core rules have a number of [earth] spells, one of which, earthquake, is an evocation spell.


I definitely like the idea of somehow separating out the invisible-force style effects (Bigby's hand, etc) from the energy ones though.

Thank you.


I've never liked the Charm school, because it's so limited. In the online version of the spell Index, there's about 5 or 6 spells in that subschool, total, and 100+ compulsions. Would you consider combining the Charm and Morale stuff, under the idea that it all affects the way you think?

I judge it to be easier for a homebrewer who wants them together to combine them than for a homebrewer to wants them separate to sort them out.


Also, the inhibitions seem sort of like reverse-compulsions (you shall do this vs. you shall NOT do this) and even then you've got spells that will force some one to sleep. I support dividing things where necessary; I'm not as much of a fan of pointless sub-divisions for their own sake.

Neither sleep nor deep slumber force the subjects to sleep. What they do is cause "a magical slumber to come upon the subject". The spells would have very different effects if they did what you are saying they do. For example, forcing someone to do something does not provide the ability to do it, and most creatures can't normally go to sleep in mid-combat.


Necromancy- I favor shifting the healing spells into this school, to keep all the positive/negative energy effects together. And it feels kind of strange that you keep the healing and raise-dead type of effects in Conjuration, but have categories like "Life" and "Spirit" in Necromancy.

Feel free to suggest different names.


Transmutation- I like the names, particularly with the time-based effects in "Mobility".

Thank you.


But again, the poor school-associations seem to crop up again. How are Chill Metal and Quench not energy-based effects? Why are the Transmute spells Polymorph instead of Artifice?

They were in Polymorph because that subschool still needed work. They are not in Artifice because they target masses of matter rather than objects.


Why are Reduce/Enlarge Polymorph instead of Imbuement?

Because they change the physical forms of creatures.


Conclusion
My experience is that the various schools come up less often in the game than I would expect, unless someone is playing a Wizard. The various subschools even less so. I would probably combine some of your subschools to keep it to just 2 or 3 per school, rather than 4 or 5. Being overly specific seems to add a lot of complexity without much benefit, and a lot of the spells look like the would overlap or qualify for multiple subschools.

Anyone using subschools for homebrew probably intends for them to come up more often. I was giving each school 4 or 5 subschools because that is what Conjuration and Illusion have.

[Vadskye]

I think I'll be keeping the (renamed) shibboleths subschool.
Makes sense. And there is a fairly clear theme running through the subschool, so I think it works.


One benefit of leaving Charm as is is that rules involving the Charm subschool, from whatever splatbooks/third party products/homebrew, will be compatible with the existing Charm subschool. (BTW, enthrall is already in the Charm subschool)
True (though you could have almost the same effect if Charm was a descriptor). Though now that I look at it, renaming Charm to Beguilement only changed about two or three spells. Keeping it as its own subschool makes sense.


Conceptually, one of the spells forces the target to stay still while the other takes away the target's ability to move. The Compulsion spells force the target, the Inhibition spells disable the target.

More likely forcing to subject to refrain from doing anything except babble. Cause/method-based distinctions can be difficult to categorize because the causes/methods can be difficult to determine.
Actually... the more you talk about this, the more sense it makes to me. Darn you, ideasmith. I will very likely add Inhibition to my system too.


If suggestion is in your version of compulsion, then it is even larger than I thought.

How does commmand count as taking total control, especially since suggestion doesn't?
Suggestion is not total control. The subject pursues a particular course of action however it sees fit. You could suggest five different characters to sabotage a castle's defenses, and they might easily do it five different ways. That means it's not a domination effect, which asserts direct control over the subject's actions. It's a fairly vaguely worded spell - if you run it in your games as allowing more direct control, then it could fit into a domination subschool. But that's not the way I treat it.


I was already moving emotion-spells from Compulsion to Morale, but had missed that antipathy & sympathy affected emotions as well as behavior. And Emotion is indeed a better name.
Those to spells are in the slightly unstable odd ground of strongly affecting behavior through emotion. I agree that they fit better in Emotion, though. The distinction between Compulsion and Emotion isn't based on the strength of the effect, but the way it is derived.


That would be energy drain, enervation, and vampiric touch that get moved. Though with Life being all about hit points, I think the first two would fit better in Spirit.
I like that, actually. It explains why two spells which are about "infusing negative energy" can have such different effects.


This one looks like a problem with schools that can't be handled just by creating new subschools.
Pretty much. Unfortunately, D&D has a number of internal inconsistencies.


From the spell description for magic weapon: "You can't cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead see magic fang)." (Monks have a special ability that lets their unarmed strikes be treated as manufactured weapons.)
Oh, shoot, you're right. Okay, I can buy that then.


It is somewhat unintuitive, but I am not seeing a better way to sort transformation.
Yeah, I'm not convinced my Alteration/Animation/Imbuement division is the best anymore. I'll do some crunching on my end when I have time to see if I can think of anything that I really like.


For now, I'm going with Artifice for objects; Manipulation for matter/energy/locations; Polymorph for creatures.
I still think there's a better system somewhere - but this is pretty darn unambiguous about what belongs where. That's enough for me to be happy with it.


I should have checked a dictionary first. Now checking both both thesaurus and dictionary, purity and bulwark look like posibilities.
There's a word that I know fits, but it's escaping me right now. I'll probably think of it in the shower a week from now...


You are welcome. And thank you.
:smallbiggrin:


They were in Polymorph because that subschool still needed work. They are not in Artifice because they target masses of matter rather than objects.
I honestly have no idea what the distinction between "masses of matter" and "objects" is supposed to be. Can you explain?

Looking over the revised list, I still have minor quibbles. (atonement feels really weird in Bulwark. Does it have to have a subschool? And the whole "fear isn't an emotion" thing is bizarre, but that's not your fault) However, if I were playing in a game that featured these subschools, I would feel totally comfortable using them. My biggest issue is internal inconsistency - and you've done a very good job of weeding that out as much as possible.

[ideasmith]

Makes sense. And there is a fairly clear theme running through the subschool, so I think it works.


True (though you could have almost the same effect if Charm was a descriptor). Though now that I look at it, renaming Charm to Beguilement only changed about two or three spells. Keeping it as its own subschool makes sense.


Actually... the more you talk about this, the more sense it makes to me. Darn you, ideasmith. I will very likely add Inhibition to my system too.

I'm glad to know you're still working on your school/subschool system; I'd like to see more of it.


Suggestion is not total control. The subject pursues a particular course of action however it sees fit. You could suggest five different characters to sabotage a castle's defenses, and they might easily do it five different ways. That means it's not a domination effect, which asserts direct control over the subject's actions. It's a fairly vaguely worded spell - if you run it in your games as allowing more direct control, then it could fit into a domination subschool. But that's not the way I treat it.

I am not seeing the above as a difference in control, but rather a difference in variety of available commands (and duration). Wouldn't a suggestion to 'drop whatever you are holding and don't pick it up' have the same effect as the 'drop' command (for the first round, that is)?

More importantly, I am still not seeing what the boundary/distinction between Compulsion and Domination is.


Those to spells are in the slightly unstable odd ground of strongly affecting behavior through emotion. I agree that they fit better in Emotion, though. The distinction between Compulsion and Emotion isn't based on the strength of the effect, but the way it is derived.


I like that, actually. It explains why two spells which are about "infusing negative energy" can have such different effects.


Pretty much. Unfortunately, D&D has a number of internal inconsistencies.


Oh, shoot, you're right. Okay, I can buy that then.

So far, so good.


Yeah, I'm not convinced my Alteration/Animation/Imbuement division is the best anymore. I'll do some crunching on my end when I have time to see if I can think of anything that I really like.


I still think there's a better system somewhere - but this is pretty darn unambiguous about what belongs where. That's enough for me to be happy with it.


There's a word that I know fits, but it's escaping me right now. I'll probably think of it in the shower a week from now...


:smallbiggrin:

There is indeed room for improvement.


I honestly have no idea what the distinction between "masses of matter" and "objects" is supposed to be. Can you explain?

I was referring to the dividing line between the manipulation subschool and the artifice subschool.


Looking over the revised list, I still have minor quibbles. (atonement feels really weird in Bulwark. Does it have to have a subschool? And the whole "fear isn't an emotion" thing is bizarre, but that's not your fault) However, if I were playing in a game that featured these subschools, I would feel totally comfortable using them. My biggest issue is internal inconsistency - and you've done a very good job of weeding that out as much as possible.

With a great deal of assistance from you. Thank you for your help.

(I am doing a-subschool-for-every-spell, which does require atonement to have a subschool.)

[Vadskye]

I'm glad to know you're still working on your school/subschool system; I'd like to see more of it.
I'm putting together the revised distribution now based on this thread - I'll post it here when I'm done.


I am not seeing the above as a difference in control, but rather a difference in variety of available commands (and duration). Wouldn't a suggestion to 'drop whatever you are holding and don't pick it up' have the same effect as the 'drop' command (for the first round, that is)?

More importantly, I am still not seeing what the boundary/distinction between Compulsion and Domination is.
Don't forget that "the suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable". The key thing that I look for when differentiating Compulsion and Domination is: does the subject retain any control over their actions? With command, hold person, and similar effects, the answer is "no". Their actions are completely dominated. With effects like suggestion and zone of truth, they still retain some control or influence over their actions; they are simply compelled to act in a certain way.

With that said, the fact that the division is this difficult to explain suggests that I should try to do better. My current plan is to switch to a Compulsion/Inhibition system like you have, which would make dominate person a Compulsion again. Then I'll add the Domination descriptor, which would have a different meaning: it would refer instead to effects which grant ongoing mental control over the subject (which, in core, is basically just the dominate line of spells).


I was referring to the dividing line between the manipulation subschool and the artifice subschool.
I know what you were using it to describe - but what I'm confused about is what exactly the difference is between those two concepts. Is a stone wall an "object" or a "mass of matter"? What about a weapon?


With a great deal of assistance from you. Thank you for your help.
Always glad to have a collaborator! I'll be keeping an eye out in case you consider descriptors, too - I think there's a lot of room for interesting descriptors.


(I am doing a-subschool-for-every-spell, which does require atonement to have a subschool.)
Got it. That reminds me - have you considered using the concept of dual subschools to help clarify some of the more "borderline" spell effects? That already exists in core (see mislead), so it's not a crazy innovation, and it could potentially help with problematic spells (polymorph any object comes to mind).

[tarkisflux]

I like a lot of these distributions more than the defaults Ideasmith, so a hearty "well done" seems to be in order. I'm not one to avoid nitpickery though, and the Necromancy school seems like it could be broken down a bit more clearly. Specifically:


The distinction between Life and Mortality seems really really thin. Manipulating life energy seems to imply the ability to cause it's absence in the way that Finger of Death or Destruction do. I think it works better to roll them together under the Mortality subschool (retained because I think it's more evocative, but either works) with a description like "enhances or diminishes the life energy of a subject". Not sure if you have a reason to avoid that though.
Flesh seems a poor name to add a disability, since it could also refer to the working of flesh to create mindless undead or the repairing of flesh to heal it or all sorts of other things. Perhaps Impair or Maim or Cripple?


May have some more after I've thought about it a bit more.

Were you planning on writing new rules for any of these subschools, or just reorganizing for fun and principle?

[Vadskye]

After vastly more work than I had originally expected, I present my revised list of schools and subschools. First, I will summarize the key differences from your subschools. Note that we have slightly different goals. You are trying to create a subschool system for the core spell list that changes as little as possible. In some ways, this is a more difficult task, since the core schools are not well-defined. In contrast, I also change the schools of existing spells, and assign a number of spells to belong to more than one school or subschool. To make things more complicated, I also include some new spells and got rid of some spells which used to be in core (as part of my overall system revision, Rise). As a result, not all of my changes will make sense for you. I do think some distributions (Necromancy and Transmutation in particular) are more clearly defined than what we had before.

With that said, here are my lists, along with explanations for what differs from yours! Spells that belong to more than one school or subschool are marked with a (+).

ABJURATION
Bulwark was renamed to "Interdiction". Effects which negate dimensional travel were moved to Negation. Undetectable Alignment makes more sense in Shielding. Negation only contains spells which actively negate effects; defensive "negation" was too ill-defined as a concept. If mind blank is Negation, then logically I would say that protection from energy should also be a negation effect. But if you move all of the defensive "negation" effects to Negation, it is even more bloated than Shielding, and lacks a strong definition to hold it together. Shielding is still larger than I would prefer, but I don't know a good way to subdivide it further.

Interdiction: An interdiction spell hedges out creatures or forces of an opposing alignment or type.
Banishment (+), Cloak of Chaos, Dismissal (+), Dispel <Alignment> (+), Forbiddance (+), Holy Aura, Magic Circle against <Alignment> (+), Planar Binding (+), Protection from <Alignment>, Shield of Law, Unholy Aura

Negation: A negating spell negates magical effects.
Ablative Shield, Ablative Fortress, Antimagic Field, Break Enchantment, Dispel Magic (Lesser/Greater), Dimensional Anchor (+), Dimensional Lock, Dispel <Alignment> (+), Emancipation, Globe of Invulnerability (Lesser), Invisibility Purge, Mage's Disjunction, Spelltheft (Lesser/Greater)

Shielding: A shielding spell protects creatures or objects from harm.
Antilife Shell, Death Ward (Mass) (+), Endure Elements, Energy Conversion, Entropic Shield, Fire Shield (+), Inertial Shield, Mind Blank, Nondetection, Prismatic Shield, Protection from Arrows, Protection from Energy (Greater), Protection from Spells, Repulsion, Resist Energy (Greater), Resistance, Retributive Shield, Sanctuary (+), Share Pain (Forced, Greater) (+), Shield, Shield of Faith, Shield Other (Greater) (+), Spell Immunity (Greater), Spell Resistance, Spell Turning, Undetectable Alignment

Warding: A warding spell protects an area or object from intrusion. If one warding spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Spot skill drops by 4. The DC drops by an additional 2 for each additional warding spell beyond the second.
Alarm, Arcane Lock (+), Explosive Runes, Fire Trap (+), Forbiddance (+), Glyph of Warding (Greater), Guards and Wards (+), Mage's Private Sanctum, Sepia Snake Sigil (+)

CONJURATION
No huge changes from core. Creation is larger than I would like; I'm open to suggestions on how to shrink it.

Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates. If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence. \spell{Acid arrow} is a creation spell.
Acid Arrow (Greater), Acid Fog, Black Tentacles, Cloudkill, Create Food and Water, Create Water, Fog Cloud, Gate (+), Glitterdust, Grease, Ice Storm (+), Incendiary Cloud (+), Mage Armor (Greater), Mage's Faithful Hound, Mage's Magnificent Mansion, Major Creation, Mind Fog (+), Minor Creation, Obscuring Mist, Phantom Steed (+), Phase Door, Prying Eyes (Greater) (+), Sea of Fog, Sea of Solid Fog, Secure Shelter, Sepia Snake Sigil (+), Shambler(+), Sleet Storm, Solid Fog, Stinking Cloud, Storm of Vengeance (+), Wall of Ice (+), Wall of Thorns, Web, Unseen Servant

Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a manifestation of a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, the manifestation disappears. A summoned creature also disappears if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. Because summoning spells do not physically transport the actual creature or object, even if the manifestation is injured or destroyed, the original is unharmed. However, it takes 24 hours for the manifestation to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again. Most summoning spells, including the summon monster and summon nature's ally spells, will automatically summon a different creature of the same type should this occur.
Conjure Magic Weapon (+), Conjure Weapon, Creeping Doom, Elemental Swarm, Insect Plague, Mount, Stampede (Greater), Summon Instrument, Summon Monster X, Summon Nature's Ally X, Summon Nature's Army

Teleportation: A teleportation spell transports one or more creatures or objects a great distance. The most powerful of these spells can cross planar boundaries. Unlike summoning spells, the transportation is (unless otherwise noted) one-way and not dispellable. Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation.
Banishment (+), Dimension Door (Mass), Dimension Slide, Dismissal (+), Dissipating Touch, Gate (+), Imprisonment, Instant Retrieval, Maze, Planar Binding (Lesser/Greater) (+), Plane Shift, Refuge, Retrieve (Greater), Rope Trick (+), Secret Chest, Teleport (Greater), Teleport Object, Teleportation Circle, Transport via Plants, Tree Stride, Word of Recall

DIVINATION
Mostly the same. The Locate Creature/Object spells were moved to Awareness, since they function like a detection spell rather than a knowledge-granting spell. Read magic, analyze dweomer, and Identify moved to Knowledge, since they grant you knowledge of the meaning of the magic rather than merely making you aware of the magic. I didn't realize how few Scrying spells there were until I started making this list...

Awareness: A awareness spell reveals objects, creatures, or effects within an area. Some awareness spells have cone-shaped areas. These move with you and extend in the direction you look. The cone defines the area that you can examine each round. If you study the same area for multiple rounds, you can often gain additional information, as noted in the descriptive text for the spell.
Arcane Sight (Greater), Detect Animals or Plants, Detect <Alignment>, Detect Poison, Detect Scrying, Detect Secret Doors, Detect Snares and Pits, Detect Thoughts, Detect Thoughts (Greater), Detect Undead, Discern Lies, Find Traps, Locate Create, Locate Entity, Locate Object, Prying Eyes (Greater) (+), See Invisibility, True Seeing

Knowledge: A knowledge spell grants the recipient information. Most knowledge spells give knowledge about the present, but some can reveal information about the future as well.
Analyze Dweomer, Augury, Commune, Commune with Nature, Comprehend Languages, Contact Other Plane, Discern Location, Discern Vulnerability, Divination, Find the Path, Foresight, Guidance, Know Direction, Legend Lore, Locate Creature, Locate Object, Moment of Prescience (Lesser/Greater), Object Reading, Precognition (Lesser/Greater), Read Magic, Revelation, Telepathic Bond, Tongues, True Strike, Vision

Scrying: A scrying spell creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.
Any creature trained in Spellcraft can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Spellcraft check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell. Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked.
Arcane Eye, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Scrying (Greater)

No subschool:
Dream (+), Nightmare (+), Sending, Telepathic Bond (+)

ENCHANTMENT
Very similar to your schools. I replaced Charm with Beguilement and added a couple of effects to it. The additions only make sense as dual-school spells, so you're fine sticking with Charm. Sleep was moved to Compulsion because it was nerfed; it now fills creatures with a magical compulsion to sleep instead of putting them to sleep instantly, making it no longer an instant-kill in combat.

Beguilement: A beguilement spell influences the subject's opinions or emotions. Beguilement spells are the most subtle form of mental control, and a creature affected by such a spell usually does not realize that it is being manipulated until after the spell wears off -- if it realizes it at all.
Charm Animal, Charm Monster (Mass), Charm Person (Mass), Enthrall, Glibness (+), Hypnotic Pattern (+), Rainbow Pattern (+), Symbol of Persuasion

Compulsion: A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in a certain way. Some compulsion spells determine the subject’s actions or the effects on the subject, some compulsion spells allow you to determine the subject’s actions when you cast the spell, and others give you ongoing control over the subject.
Animal Messenger, Command (Greater), Confusion, Daze, Deep Slumber, Demand (+), Dominate Monster, Dominate Person, Geas/Quest (Lesser), Hideous Laughter, Hypnotism, Illusory Script (+), Insanity, Irresistible Dance, Power Word Command, Scintillating Pattern (+), Sleep, Song of Discord, Suggestion (Mass), Symbol of Insanity, Zone of Truth

Emotion: An emotion spell influences the subject's emotions.
Aid, Antipathy, Attraction, Aversion, Bane, Bless, Calm Emotions, Cause Fear, Crushing Despair, Good Hope, Fear, Heroes' Feast (+), Heroism (Greater), Prayer, Rage, Remove Fear, Symbol of Fear, Sympathy

Inhibition: An inhibition spell impedes the functioning of the target's mind, typically preventing the target from acting.
Animal Trance, Binding, Daze, Daze Monster, Deep Slumber, Feeblemind, Hold Monster (Mass), Hold Person (Mass), Lullaby, Mind Fog (+), Power Word Blind, Power Word Kill, Power Word Stun, Sanctuary (+), Sleep, Symbol of Sleep, Symbol of Stunning, Touch of Idiocy

Phantasm:
Dream (+), Nightmare (+), Phantasmal Killer, Weird

No Subschool:
Modify Memory

EVOCATION
A number of changes, but they all rely on shuffling spells between schools, so not necessarily relevant to you. Invocation was renamed to Channeling to avoid confusion with the warlock-style "invocation" concept, which appears more in my system than in core. You may want to stick with Invocation if you prefer the name. Illumination and its effects were moved to Illusion (Modulation), but that's not relevant to a core-based distribution. For your purposes, Illumination works perfectly fine as an Evocation school. Likewise, Control was expanded to include some of the Transmutation (Manipulation) effects.

Energy: An energy spell creates or manipulates energy, such as fire or electricity.
Burning Hands, Call Lightning (Storm), Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold (Greater), Delayed Blast Fireball, Energy Conversion (+), Fire Shield (+), Fire Seeds (+), Fire Storm, Fireball, Fire Trap (+), Flame Strike, Flame Weapon, Flaming Sphere, Freezing Sphere, Heat Metal, Ice Storm (+), Incendiary Cloud (+), Lightning Bolt, Meteor Swarm, Polar Ray, Ray of Frost, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Shocking Grasp, Shout (Greater), Sound Burst, Storm of Vengeance(+), Sympathetic Vibration, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice (+)

Channeling: A channeling spell channels divine or other power.
Align Weapon (+), Atonement, Blasphemy, Bless Water (+), Bless Weapon (+), Chaos Hammer, Consecrate, Curse Water (+), Desecrate, Dictum, Hallow, Holy Smite, Holy Sword (+), Holy Word, Miracle, Order's Wrath, Unhallow, Unholy Blight, Word of Chaos

Control: A control spell manipulates forces and moves inanimate objects.
Blade Barrier, Clenched Fist, Control Water, Control Weather, Crushing Hand, Earthquake, Floating Disk, Forcecage, Forceful Hand, Grasping Hand, Gust of Wind, Hold Portal, Interposing Hand, Knock, Levitate, Mage Hand, Mage's Sword, Magic Missile, Open/Close, Resilient Sphere, Reverse Gravity, Spiritual Weapon, Storm of Vengeance (+), Telekinesis, Telekinetic Force/Maneuver/Sphere/Thrust, Tiny Hut, Wall of Force

ILLUSION
A number of changes, all of which rely on shuffling spells between schools.

Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation out of thin air.
Ghost Sound, Hypnotic Pattern (+), Illusory Wall, Magic Mouth, Major Image, Minor Image, Mirror Image, Mislead (+), Permanent Image, Persistent Image, Programmed Image, Rainbow Pattern (+), Scintillating Pattern (+), Silent Image

Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.
Blur, Disguise Self, Displacement, False Vision, Hallucinatory Terrain, Illusory Script (+), Invisibility (Greater, Mass, Sphere), Magic Aura, Mirage Arcana, Misdirection, Mislead (+), Phantom Trap, Seeming, Screen, Veil

Modulation: A modulation spell creates new sensations or effects by manipulating existing sensations, particularly light and sound. The effects of a modulation are real and cannot be disbelieved.
Continual Flame (+), Color Spray, Dancing Lights, Darkness, Daylight, Deeper Darkness, Faerie Fire, Flare, Light, Message, Pass without Trace (+), Prismatic Sphere/Spray/Wall (+), Sculpt Sound, Searing Light, Silence, Sunbeam, Sunburst, Ventriloquism, Whispering Wind, Zone of Silence

Shadow: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.
Project Image, Shades, Shadow Body (+), Shadow Conjuration/Evocation (Greater), Shadow Walk

NECROMANCY
Some major reshuffling here. Mortality is no longer a separate school; I felt that the fluff holding it together was just "the same as other subschools, but stronger", which isn't a good basis. Its spells were merged into other schools as appropriate. A new subschool, Vitalism, was added; it contains every effect which manipulates positive and negative energy. Life was expanded to include any spell which affects a creature's life force without directly affecting its body (treating "hit points" as being distinct from "affecting the body"). A number of these are new spells, but it should stand on its own without those additions. Flesh is largely the same; it also acquired the healing spells that don't channel positive energy, such as remove blindness/deafness, but you can leave those out without damaging its integrity. Spells which affect undead were merged into Vitalism for two reasons: first, undead are powered by negative energy; second, both Undeath and Vitalism were small schools that would benefit from being merged. Spirit was renamed to Soul, but that doesn't matter too much. Spirit has some major school-shuffling.

Flesh: A flesh spell affects the home of a creature's life energy: its body. Many flesh spells inflict physical disabilities.
Antilife Shell (+), Assimilate (+), Blindness/Deafness, Contagion, Delay Poison, Destruction, Eyebite, Ghoul Touch, Horrid Wilting, Neutralize Poison, Power Word Blind, Ray of Clumsiness, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Disease, Restoration (Lesser/Greater), Symbol of Pain, Symbol of Weakness, Touch of Fatigue, Waves of Exhaustion, Waves of Fatigue

Life: A life spell manipulates the subject's life force directly.
Crush Life (Greater, Mass), Death Knell, Death Ward (Mass) (+), False Life, Finger of Death, Link Vitality (Mass), Power Word Kill, Share Pain (Forced) (+), Shield Other (Greater) (+), Slay Living, Spectral Hand, Transfer Suffering(Lesser/Mass), Symbol of Death, Vampiric Touch, Wail of the Banshee

Soul: A soul spell manipulates the subject's soul, either restoring it to its proper place or fragmenting it for terrible purposes.
Animate Dead (+), Astral Projection, Clone (+), Create Greater Undead (+), Create Undead (+), Reincarnate (+), Resurrection, Revivify, Soul Bind, Speak with Dead, Trap the Soul, True Resurrection

Vitalism: An vitalism spell channels positive or negative energy. This can be used to enhance or destroy a subject's life energy, or to manipulate creatures powered by negative energy.
Animate Dead (+), Chill Touch, Circle of Death, Command Undead, Control Undead, Create Greater Undead (+), Create Undead (+), Cure X Wounds (Mass), Disrupt Undead, Disrupting Weapon (+), Energy Drain, Enervation, Harm, Heal (Mass), Heal Mount, Inflict X wounds (Mass), Regenerate, Undeath to Death

No subschool:
Bestow Curse, Mark of Justice, Remove Curse

TRANSMUTATION
This bloody school took me hours by itself. Mobility is gone; it was an effect-based distinction, and I didn't like that the same spell would switch subschools just for giving a bonus to Jump checks instead of a bonus to, say, Strength checks. That felt wrong. The Polymorph school stayed mostly intact. Artifice was split into Alteration, Augment, and Imbuement, depending on the way the spell worked. Imbuement was split into Augment and Imbuement to limit how massive it would be. Manipulation mostly merged into Alteration and Imbuement, with the remaining effects (like reverse gravity) moved to other schools, primarily Evocation (Control). You will need a Manipulation subschool, but it should be much smaller than the old one; Alteration and Imbuement do a better job of maintaining a consistent feel. Finally, the Time subschool was added. Not many spells in it, but time manipulation feels fairly different from anything else Transmutation tends to do, so I felt that it belonged as a unique school - just like Divination (Scrying) is a unique school despite its small size.

Alteration: An alteration spell changes the physical state of anything with a material form.
Arcane Mark, Blink, Changestaff (+), Clone (+), Disintegrate, Ethereal Jaunt, Etherealness, Erase, Fabricate, Fertility/Infertility, Make Whole, Mending, Move Earth, Passwall, Plant Growth, Polymorph Any Object, Purify Food and Drink, Rusting Grasp, Secret Page, Shape Stone, Shape Wood, Shrink Item, Snare, Soften Earth and Stone, Spike Growth, Spike Stones, Transmute Flesh and Stone, Transmute Mud and Rock, Wall of Stone, Warp Wood

Augment: An augment spell enhances the existing physical or mental abilities of an object or creature.
Barkskin, Combat Transformation, Conjure Magic Weapon (+), Divine Favor, Divine Power, Expeditious Retreat, Farsight, Glibness (+), Jump, Longstrider, Ironwood, Magic Fang (Greater), Magic Vestment, Magic Weapon (Greater), Righteous Might (+), Shillelagh, Stoneskin, Totemic Power (Greater, Mass), Totemic Mind (Greater, Mass)

Imbuement: An imbuement spell infuses an object or creature with magic, granting it new abilities or even the semblance of life.
Air Walk, Align Weapon (+), Animate Objects, Animate Plants, Animate Rope, Arcane Lock (+), Backbiter, Bless Water (+), Bless Weapon (+), Changestaff (+), Darkvision, Disrupting Weapon (+), Entangle, Feather Fall, Fire Seeds (+), Fly, Freedom (Mass), Lifeoak (+), Overland Flight, Pass without Trace (+), Phantom Steed(+), Rope Trick (+), Shambler (+), Spellstaff, Spider Climb, Telepathic Bond (+), Water Breathing, Water Walk

Polymorph: A polymorph spell changes a creature's body into a new form.
Animal Growth, Assimilate, Baleful Polymorph, Enlarge Person (Mass), Gaseous Form, Giant Vermin, Implosion, Iron Body, Meld into Stone, Oak Body, Reduce Person (Mass), Reincarnate (+), Righteous Might (+), Shadow Body (+), Statue, Tree Shape, Wind Walk

Time: A time spell manipulates time itself, speeding or slowing its passage for the subject.
Gentle Repose, Haste, Slow, Temporal Stasis, Time Stop

Oh my goodness this took forever :smalleek:. But I think that the system is much better defined for it. At least I hope so...

EDIT: This list is no longer my most recent list! That can be found at this post later in the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15663784#post15663784).

[ideasmith]

Edit: I have revised the original post.


I'm putting together the revised distribution now based on this thread - I'll post it here when I'm done.

I look foreward.


Don't forget that "the suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable". The key thing that I look for when differentiating Compulsion and Domination is: does the subject retain any control over their actions? With command, hold person, and similar effects, the answer is "no". Their actions are completely dominated. With effects like suggestion and zone of truth, they still retain some control or influence over their actions; they are simply compelled to act in a certain way.

Actually, with commmand the answer is 'maybe'; the Drop and Fall commands leave a great deal of choice.


With that said, the fact that the division is this difficult to explain suggests that I should try to do better. My current plan is to switch to a Compulsion/Inhibition system like you have, which would make dominate person a Compulsion again. Then I'll add the Domination descriptor, which would have a different meaning: it would refer instead to effects which grant ongoing mental control over the subject (which, in core, is basically just the dominate line of spells).

I have a similar problem with Artifice and Manipulation.


I know what you were using it to describe - but what I'm confused about is what exactly the difference is between those two concepts. Is a stone wall an "object" or a "mass of matter"? What about a weapon?

That is a very good question. Unfortunately, my answer is incomplete and complicated:

While stone walls and weapons are objects, the portions thereof are masses of matter, and a spell can count as affecting masses of matter even where the masses of matter affected can encompass an entire object.

There is an exception involving distinct portions which I don't have the wording for yet. And doubtless other discrepancies.


Always glad to have a collaborator! I'll be keeping an eye out in case you consider descriptors, too - I think there's a lot of room for interesting descriptors.

There is, but I'm not expecting to come up with them. Of course, you never know.


Got it. That reminds me - have you considered using the concept of dual subschools to help clarify some of the more "borderline" spell effects? That already exists in core (see mislead), so it's not a crazy innovation, and it could potentially help with problematic spells (polymorph any object comes to mind).

I haven't. Good idea.


I like a lot of these distributions more than the defaults Ideasmith, so a hearty "well done" seems to be in order.

Thank you.


The distinction between Life and Mortality seems really really thin. Manipulating life energy seems to imply the ability to cause it's absence in the way that Finger of Death or Destruction do. I think it works better to roll them together under the Mortality subschool (retained because I think it's more evocative, but either works) with a description like "enhances or diminishes the life energy of a subject". Not sure if you have a reason to avoid that though.

The Mortality spell affect the death descriptor. The Life spell affect hit points. These are fairly coherent subschools. A subschool that combined them would be rather less coherent. Changing the names and/or descriptions might be useful, though.


Flesh seems a poor name to add a disability, since it could also refer to the working of flesh to create mindless undead or the repairing of flesh to heal it or all sorts of other things. Perhaps Impair or Maim or Cripple?

Impairment is a better name. Thank you.


May have some more after I've thought about it a bit more.

I hope so.


Were you planning on writing new rules for any of these subschools, or just reorganizing for fun and principle?

Very much the latter.

[tarkisflux]

The Mortality spell affect the death descriptor. The Life spell affect hit points. These are fairly coherent subschools. A subschool that combined them would be rather less coherent. Changing the names and/or descriptions might be useful, though.

If you were going for a 1:1 correspondence between the descriptors and the subschools the division would make sense, but you don't seem to be doing that.

The mechanical and fluff differences boil down to one set being 'channeling the energy through your own body before pouring it into someone directly' and 'just trying to pour enough of it through someone else at range to kill them outright (which also limits which rez spells work)'. In the end they're both trying to kill someone with too much negative energy, and I don't think they'd make a less coherent subschool if rolled together. Though I suppose the 'it's all negative energy' assumption/fluff has some weird fluff issues with harm healing undead but [Death] effects not...

Still, you could maybe focus more on the mechanical differences between them (touch channeling vs. ranged attempted overload) if you wanted to keep them separate. It probably works out that way too even if I think it's unnecessary.


I hope so.

Then I will try not to disappoint :-)

[Deepbluediver]

If you were going for a 1:1 correspondence between the descriptors and the subschools the division would make sense, but you don't seem to be doing that.

*snip*

Still, you could maybe focus more on the mechanical differences between them (touch channeling vs. ranged attempted overload) if you wanted to keep them separate. It probably works out that way too even if I think it's unnecessary.

One of the big problems is, as I mentioned before, that the original assigned category for a lot of schools was inconsistent, and the definitions of the various schools did not make a lot of sense. Take Evocation for example:

Evocation spells manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end. In effect, they create something out of nothing. Many of these spells produce spectacular effects, and evocation spells can deal large amounts of damage.

With the exception of the part that I underlined, every single other sentence or phrase could be equally applied to ANY other school. The underlined part can only apply to SOME other schools.
Also causing a problem is that the designers apparently thought no one would take anything BUT evocation if every other school didn't have it's own direct-damage blasty spells. That's not unreasonable for a brand-new player, but it makes things very difficult to balance once you start to get more game mastery.

ideasmith is trying very hard to keep everything in the same base-school as it was originally, which means that while his ideas are good and the explanations reasonable, there is still going to be a certain amount of in-built quirkiness.
That's why I prefer redefining the various schools to be more easily divisible, and reshuffle the spells as necessary.

I haven't taken the time to go through the whole list case-by-case like Vadskye, but I'll probably end up doing something like what I describe below (using the terms given above as best I can), with more use of dual-schooling for spells that are borderline (and new Dual-school rules).

Abjuration
Negation (anti-magic), Warding (straight-up protection), Channeling/Invocation (the divine buffs formerly in Evocation)
I've never been happy with that last group being in Evocation; its not really a great fit for any school, but Transmutation doesn't need any more spells, whereas Abjuration will probably be a a little thin when I get done pulling other stuff out of it (like Banishment).

Conjuration
Creation, Summoning (including calling), Teleportation
I'm pulling all the energy-manipulation out of Conjuration; that's going to be strictly an Evocation thing. I haven't made up my mind about spells with the [Acid] descriptor though.

Divination
same as above
I'd struggled to find a way to split this up, and except for the fact that I couldn't see the point of a Scrying subschool that was pretty much exactly the same as the regular definition, didn't have a clue. I think the OP had the best ideas here.

Enchantment
Charm (including Morale/Emotion), Compulsion
As I said earlier, I don't see a lot of difference between forcing some one to act a certain way and prohibiting them from acting. The only major difference I can understand in the school are between those spells that alter the way your brain functions and those that just cut it out of the loop altogether.

Evocation
Energy, Control
Basically, if it's got any of the elemental descriptors, or it deals direct damage in some way, it's been nominated and considered for placement in Evocation. Force effects will also wind up here a lot.
I wouldn't change what's in Evocation so much as take all the other stuff that should have been here in the first place and add it. Those orb spells, possibly Disintegrate, etc.

Illusion
Figment, Glamer, possibly 1 more
Illusion is sort of like Evocation, except that its about Sound and Light energy with a little bit of flavor from Enchantment; also, any spells that can obscure or hide something will probable be dual-schooled with this and Abjuration.
The biggest change I'm making is that the Shadow spells are gone. I know that the way magic in D&D operates illusions can be a little difficult to play; I don't think the way to solve the problem is to add in spells that aren't illusion-ary in any way.

Necromancy
Entropy (negative energy and debuffs), Life (healing, positive energy), Spirit (creating undead, possibly raising the dead, too)
Necromancy becomes the school of positive-and-negative energy, life and death. Some of the stuff that it should never had had is going elsewhere (Fear, for example); mostly things that seemed like they where assigned to Necromancy solely because they where "wicked" and Necromancy is the "evil" school.

Transmutation
Alteration (for creatures), Artifice (for objects), and Temporal (time)
Again, the most notable changes will probably be stuff that this school looses. I want Transmutation l to be all about manipulating matter (as opposed to Evocation with energy and Conjuration, which creates but doesn't change). So things like Blink, Magic Weapon, Telepathic Bond, etc, will all be either moved or Dual-schooled.
I do like Vadskye's inclusion of Gental Repose in the Time school; I wouldn't have thought of that.

[tarkisflux]

ideasmith is trying very hard to keep everything in the same base-school as it was originally, which means that while his ideas are good and the explanations reasonable, there is still going to be a certain amount of in-built quirkiness.

Huh? I suggested a subschool merge, Ideasmith responded that one subschool was basically spells with the [Death] descriptor and one was not, and I responded that didn't seem to be a thing he was going for in general and why I thought they were sufficiently thematically similar. I'm not sure what part of that is incompatible with your same base school point, because I'm not suggesting a change to any of those.

I'm arguing against subschool weirdness, not school weirdness (if I was, I'd be posting some pretty divergent suggestions that may well get in anyway since everyone else is doing their own school thing in this thread now). I'm attempting to minimize built in quirkiness through what I think are more coherent subgroupings, or better definitions of the subschools if that doesn't work out.

[ideasmith]

After vastly more work than I had originally expected, I present my revised list of schools and subschools.


Thank you; I have already started looking it over.


If you were going for a 1:1 correspondence between the descriptors and the subschools the division would make sense, but you don't seem to be doing that.

The mechanical and fluff differences boil down to one set being 'channeling the energy through your own body before pouring it into someone directly' and 'just trying to pour enough of it through someone else at range to kill them outright (which also limits which rez spells work)'. In the end they're both trying to kill someone with too much negative energy, and I don't think they'd make a less coherent subschool if rolled together. Though I suppose the 'it's all negative energy' assumption/fluff has some weird fluff issues with harm healing undead but [Death] effects not...

Still, you could maybe focus more on the mechanical differences between them (touch channeling vs. ranged attempted overload) if you wanted to keep them separate. It probably works out that way too even if I think it's unnecessary.

Oops, I meant the death condition. My apologies for the typo.

I don't see any of the Mortality spells as using negative energy, nor am I aware of much basis for that assumption.

Also, while inflicting hit point damage normally risks killing the target, it can certainly take targets out without killing them, especially since it stacks with nonlethal damage.


Then I will try not to disappoint :-)

Thank you.

[Vadskye]

Thank you; I have already started looking it over.
Excellent. Fair warning of potential changes - after further consideration, I am considering finding a way to merge Beguilement/Charm and Emotion (they seem very similar), and I think that Transmutation would benefit from having the Animation subschool back (it would get Animate Objects, Animate Plants, Animate Rope, Changestaff, Entangle, Lifeoak, and Shambler). But I didn't want to change my post in case it caused confusion.

And deepbluediver, could you explain why you decided to use those subschools instead of what has been discussed here? You have fewer subschools in each school, and they vary wildly in size, so I'm wondering why you think those are better.

[tarkisflux]

I don't see any of the Mortality spells as using negative energy, nor am I aware of much basis for that assumption.

Let's just chalk it up to personal assumptions on my part and move on.

Divinations: I strongly support Vadskye's suggested changes. You don't gain knowledge of a creature you detect with a locate spell, you sense it's direction and movement relative to you. Analyze Dweomer seems a dual subschool spell though, since it incorporates detect magic (an awareness spell) with an analysis function (a knowledge spell).

Enchantment: I second considering a Charm / Emotion merger. Charm gives you feelings of trust and suppresses suspicion (arguably).

Evocation: Not sure how I missed this before, but light isn't an energy? They're sufficiently distinct in concept I guess if you fluff that light is a mixed energy form (the prismatic spells have a bunch of assorted energy and other effects in them after all) while the more pure ones are the domain of energy, but they seem to have a lot of odd overlap in places. A more clear description might help, but I don't know what to suggest.

Why the decision to put sonic effects, shatter, and sympathetic vibration with Energy instead of Control?

Unrelated side note, Invis Purge is poorly placed in the SRD :smallannoyed:

Transmutation: ... will require more thought. Those seem like some really fine distinctions in places, but it may just be a case of needing better descriptions.

[Deepbluediver]

Huh? I suggested a subschool merge, Ideasmith responded that one subschool was basically spells with the [Death] descriptor and one was not, and I responded that didn't seem to be a thing he was going for in general and why I thought they were sufficiently thematically similar. I'm not sure what part of that is incompatible with your same base school point, because I'm not suggesting a change to any of those.

My misunderstanding then, sorry.


And deepbluediver, could you explain why you decided to use those subschools instead of what has been discussed here?

I can try. I think I already hinted at some of it; I'll add more detail.


You have fewer subschools in each school, and they vary wildly in size, so I'm wondering why you think those are better.

First, regarding size: I want spells to be classified in ways that fit the description and the mechanics; I don't want spells tossed about willy-nilly just to pad out the numbers (I get that impression some times from the RAW).
If a subschool has fewer than a dozen spells, I would probably either look for a justification to fold it into another subschool, or simply leave it un-subschooled entirely.

Next, as I mentioned earlier, I don't see the particular school-designation for a spell come up all that often in the game; subschools even less so. Plus, I feel there is a lot of overlap and a lack of clarity between some subschools. By being more inclusive, I think it's easier to draw definite lines between what something is and isn't.

You don't feel the need for separate Fire, Cold, and Electric subschools because they're all types of energy usage, right? I feel similarly about things like Warding vs. Protection, and Alteration/Polymorph and Augment/Imbuement. Your list makes a distinction between changing what an object (or creature) is capable of and altering its physical shape; I don't see a need for that. I DO tend to make connections between spells that do the exact opposite of each other though; such as summoning spells vs. Banishment, or energy protection vs. Fireball. As you pointed out; having every spell with a vaguely defensive use would bloat particular schools, so I tend to look at what those spells are preventing.

To use an analogy, Light and Darkness are opposite forces, but "shadow" is merely the absence of light. If I can manipulate light, shouldn't I be able to use it to make shadows? If I can summon creatures from another plane, shouldn't I be able to send them away? If I can create a fireball, can't I shield myself from the same?


Finally, I'm thinking about simplification. The more easily I can describe what each school/subschool includes and the fewer subschools I need the better, IMO. I also plan to make more frequent use of the Dual-school option, for things that are really borderline or hard to place.

I haven't done the entire spell list like you have, but if there is anything in particular you would like more explanation of, or you are curious where I would put a certain spell, please let me know.

[Vadskye]

Divinations: I strongly support Vadskye's suggested changes.
Thanks :smallsmile:


Analyze Dweomer seems a dual subschool spell though, since it incorporates detect magic (an awareness spell) with an analysis function (a knowledge spell).
Good catch - I agree.


Enchantment: I second considering a Charm / Emotion merger. Charm gives you feelings of trust and suppresses suspicion (arguably).
Yup.


Evocation: Not sure how I missed this before, but light isn't an energy? They're sufficiently distinct in concept I guess if you fluff that light is a mixed energy form (the prismatic spells have a bunch of assorted energy and other effects in them after all) while the more pure ones are the domain of energy, but they seem to have a lot of odd overlap in places. A more clear description might help, but I don't know what to suggest.

Why the decision to put sonic effects, shatter, and sympathetic vibration with Energy instead of Control?
The distribution of light, energy, and sound is a very tricky one. Core is horribly ambiguous about this. For example, all [light] and [darkness] spells are in Evocation. However, effects which manipulate light are in Illusion; that's where you get Silent Image, Invisibility, and so on. Also, Color Spray is clearly intended to produce light, and the pattern spells explicitly state that they produce light, but none of them get the [light] descriptor (which, amusingly, means that they produce light even inside magical darkness effects).

Sound manipulation is at least as bad. [Sonic] effects are primarily Evocation, but Silence and any effects which actually create sound directly are Illusion, and Sculpt Sound is Transmutation. Plus, many random spells which use sound in some way have [Sonic] thrown on despite not using sonic energy at all, such as Animal Trance and Holy Word.

I'm still puzzling out how to solve this perfectly, but my current distribution is as follows:
Effects which manipulate light are Illusion (Modulation).
Effects which use sonic energy, which is different from ordinary sound, are Evocation (Energy).
Effects which manipulate sound are Illusion (Modulation).

Open to suggestions on how to make this more internally consistent, naturally.


Unrelated side note, Invis Purge is poorly placed in the SRD :smallannoyed:
Very much so. Having spent far more time than is healthy fighting with the spell system, I have come to the conclusion that the spell system was probably created by a group of people working independently who didn't bother talking to each other very much about their ideas until it was too late to resolve the disagreements fully, so we are left with a general mishmash.

Transmutation: ... will require more thought. Those seem like some really fine distinctions in places, but it may just be a case of needing better descriptions.[/QUOTE]
I think my distinctions should work, but I agree that clearer descriptions are needed.


Next, as I mentioned earlier, I don't see the particular school-designation for a spell come up all that often in the game; subschools even less so. Plus, I feel there is a lot of overlap and a lack of clarity between some subschools. By being more inclusive, I think it's easier to draw definite lines between what something is and isn't.
Keep in mind that the more more spells you put in a subschool, the more variety it has to hold together, so the less well-defined its fluff and "feel" can be.


Your list makes a distinction between changing what an object (or creature) is capable of and altering its physical shape; I don't see a need for that.
I think you should go through the process of assigning spells to each of your subschools. You will find it is very difficult to split spells into "object-affecting" vs "creature-affecting"; distinctions like the ones I have drawn are much more consistent.


To use an analogy, Light and Darkness are opposite forces, but "shadow" is merely the absence of light. If I can manipulate light, shouldn't I be able to use it to make shadows? If I can summon creatures from another plane, shouldn't I be able to send them away? If I can create a fireball, can't I shield myself from the same?
That is one approach to a magic system. D&D 2nd edition had a similar concept with "reversible" spells. Personally, I think it is hogwash. There is no reason that a character who is capable filling a room with light should necessarily be able to fill a room with darkness. It creates all sorts of fluff problems: why is my Sun domain cleric who worships the bright light of day really good at making things dark? Why is my pyromanic sorcerer who loves destruction necessarily good at protecting his allies? I don't like it. Better to keep opposites very separate.


I haven't done the entire spell list like you have, but if there is anything in particular you would like more explanation of, or you are curious where I would put a certain spell, please let me know.
Like I said above, I think trying to go through the whole spell list will help clarify your ideas on spell subschools. I didn't really understand my own system until I followed ideasmith's example and made a list for every spell in my system, and that led me to make changes that would not otherwise have occurred to me.

[Deepbluediver]

In my post, I bring up dual-school spells a lot, and I wanted to avoid any misunderstandings.

I don't like the RAW dual-school (DS) rules, and I don't like most of the DS spells.

My version of the DS rules lets you prepare a spell if you have access to either school (instead of requiring both). In addition, many of the published DS spells aren't really borderline or overlapping effects; they're two entirely separate things under one heading. For example, a number of DS spells from Dragon Magic (I think that's the book, anyhow) give you dragon like features (claws, wings) for a time, which you then expend to use a one-time evocation. I hated them.

So to conclude, think about revising the DS rules, and using them to help address some of the hard-to-classify groups.


The distribution of light, energy, and sound is a very tricky one. Core is horribly ambiguous about this. For example, all [light] and [darkness] spells are in Evocation. However, effects which manipulate light are in Illusion; that's where you get Silent Image, Invisibility, and so on. Also, Color Spray is clearly intended to produce light, and the pattern spells explicitly state that they produce light, but none of them get the [light] descriptor (which, amusingly, means that they produce light even inside magical darkness effects).

Sound manipulation is at least as bad. [Sonic] effects are primarily Evocation, but Silence and any effects which actually create sound directly are Illusion, and Sculpt Sound is Transmutation. Plus, many random spells which use sound in some way have [Sonic] thrown on despite not using sonic energy at all, such as Animal Trance and Holy Word.

I'm still puzzling out how to solve this perfectly, but my current distribution is as follows:
Effects which manipulate light are Illusion (Modulation).
Effects which use sonic energy, which is different from ordinary sound, are Evocation (Energy).
Effects which manipulate sound are Illusion (Modulation).

Open to suggestions on how to make this more internally consistent, naturally.

I, too, was left wracking my brains over how to classify this stuff. One thing that crossed my mind was altering how Illusion was defined so that it didn't work with sound and light, but was entirely mental. Invisibility doesn't actually make you invisible (that's why you can still see instead of being blinded by the bent-light lines) it just makes people not notice you, or not care. That makes Illusion feel a lot like Enchantment though, but given how many Illusion spells are [Mind-Affecting] its not exactly a hard switch to make.

Ultimately, I opted to keep Illusion as sound and light, scrap or DS most of the Illusion mind-affecting spells, and DS-evocation some stuff like Sunburst. The difference between Illusion-energy and Evocation-energy has a certain amount of handwaving/wizards-did-it/just the way magic works.

If that doesn't float your boat, what about this: Sound is really just the motion of particles (usually air), so what if Evocation is about adding (fire, electric) or subtracting (cold) energy from a system, while illusion is about manipulating the energy that already exists?
Still requires some handwaving, but maybe less-so?
And, if all else fails just dual-school it.


Having spent far more time than is healthy fighting with the spell system, I have come to the conclusion that the spell system was probably created by a group of people working independently who didn't bother talking to each other very much about their ideas until it was too late to resolve the disagreements fully, so we are left with a general mishmash.

Whatever the cause, we agree that the end result is a hodge-podge of poor classifications and outright contradictions.


Keep in mind that the more more spells you put in a subschool, the more variety it has to hold together, so the less well-defined its fluff and "feel" can be.

Yes, I understand that. But I'm hoping that I can avoid "poorly defined" and instead have "simply defined"; I shouldn't need more than a single sentence to clearly outline any school or subschool (that's the goal anyhow, failure IS a possibility). I think your definitions are overly specific, and yet still seem inadequate, since you where talking about DSing stuff before I mentioned it.


I think you should go through the process of assigning spells to each of your subschools. You will find it is very difficult to split spells into "object-affecting" vs "creature-affecting"; distinctions like the ones I have drawn are much more consistent.

I will, someday; I've got other projects on my plate right this moment. Any spells in particular you think I would have trouble with in my system? We probably agree on a large number of the spells; I feel like we're just haggling over the details.
And of course, I am checking your list for good ideas too; I think I already said I liked Gentle Repose being classified as part of the Time spells.

Edit: I'm open to altering the various subschools, if necessary. For example, I'd consider subschools of "changes an objects or creatures form" vs. "grants new abilities to creatures and objects while keeping the form the same" instead, if that was easier to divide along.


That is one approach to a magic system. D&D 2nd edition had a similar concept with "reversible" spells. Personally, I think it is hogwash. There is no reason that a character who is capable filling a room with light should necessarily be able to fill a room with darkness. It creates all sorts of fluff problems: why is my Sun domain cleric who worships the bright light of day really good at making things dark? Why is my pyromaniac sorcerer who loves destruction necessarily good at protecting his allies? I don't like it. Better to keep opposites very separate.

Yes, I understand that it wouldn't be perfect; that's part of the reason I'm advocating more DSing (sorry if I'm starting to sound like a broken record here). If the end result of the spell is the same, I don't much mind which school you get at it from. If you think its weird that your pyromaniac sorcerer wouldn't protect people, then don't; but don't prohibit him from being good at it if that's what the player wants. A potential problem with your system might be that my Pyromaniac wizard is screwed if he ever has to visit the plane of fire or deal with a fire elemental.

[tarkisflux]

And deepbluediver, could you explain why you decided to use those subschools instead of what has been discussed here? You have fewer subschools in each school, and they vary wildly in size, so I'm wondering why you think those are better.

He's already responded, but I'm curious why you're concerned about it. Balance between schools matters because of specialization (for wizards anyway) and spell focus value. Balance between descriptors matters for interaction reasons. But subschools live in between those things and rarely have mechanical rules at all, so the number of spells per subschool doesn't seem like a really important thing.


The distribution of light, energy, and sound is a very tricky one. Core is horribly ambiguous about this. For example, all [light] and [darkness] spells are in Evocation. However, effects which manipulate light are in Illusion; that's where you get Silent Image, Invisibility, and so on. Also, Color Spray is clearly intended to produce light, and the pattern spells explicitly state that they produce light, but none of them get the [light] descriptor (which, amusingly, means that they produce light even inside magical darkness effects).

[...]

I'm still puzzling out how to solve this perfectly, but my current distribution is as follows:
Effects which manipulate light are Illusion (Modulation).
Effects which use sonic energy, which is different from ordinary sound, are Evocation (Energy).
Effects which manipulate sound are Illusion (Modulation).

Open to suggestions on how to make this more internally consistent, naturally.



I, too, was left wracking my brains over how to classify this stuff. One thing that crossed my mind was altering how Illusion was defined so that it didn't work with sound and light, but was entirely mental. Invisibility doesn't actually make you invisible (that's why you can still see instead of being blinded by the bent-light lines) it just makes people not notice you, or not care. That makes Illusion feel a lot like Enchantment though, but given how many Illusion spells are [Mind-Affecting] its not exactly a hard switch to make.

Ultimately, I opted to keep Illusion as sound and light, scrap or DS most of the Illusion mind-affecting spells, and DS-evocation some stuff like Sunburst. The difference between Illusion-energy and Evocation-energy has a certain amount of handwaving/wizards-did-it/just the way magic works.

If that doesn't float your boat, what about this: Sound is really just the motion of particles (usually air), so what if Evocation is about adding (fire, electric) or subtracting (cold) energy from a system, while illusion is about manipulating the energy that already exists?
Still requires some handwaving, but maybe less-so?
And, if all else fails just dual-school it.

You can do Illusion as light and sound and whatever manipulation, but then you run into Transmutation and Evocation fluff on occasion, not to mention the fact that your illusions are actually 'real' in some non-trivial sense at that point because they move real things, and that makes the True Seeing fluff a bit weird.

Alternately, 'an illusion' could be a magical energy that exists in space and overrides the standard perceptions of people that witness / interact with it. Then it doesn't gain light/darkness because those are actual energy manipulation (and not subject to True Seeing or similar abilities) instead of just an external sensory override. An illusion of darkness would achieve the same mechanical effect, but be countered by True Seeing instead of a [Light] spell because it's a false sensory experience.

[ideasmith]

Edit: I have now revised my Transmutations subschools, see original post.


After vastly more work than I had originally expected, I present my revised list of schools and subschools.

In order to respond to at least part of your post to you sooner rather than later, I will be replying to your post over multiple posts and a period of time.


First, I will summarize the key differences from your subschools. Note that we have slightly different goals. You are trying to create a subschool system for the core spell list that changes as little as possible. In some ways, this is a more difficult task, since the core schools are not well-defined. In contrast, I also change the schools of existing spells, and assign a number of spells to belong to more than one school or subschool. To make things more complicated, I also include some new spells and got rid of some spells which used to be in core (as part of my overall system revision, Rise).

I will note which spells are absent, without attempting to guess which are renamed, which are intentionally removed, and which are accidentally left out.


As a result, not all of my changes will make sense for you. I do think some distributions (Necromancy and Transmutation in particular) are more clearly defined than what we had before.

I've only done an in-depth look at Transmutation so far, I have seen enough to the others to be sure they are improvements.


With that said, here are my lists, along with explanations for what differs from yours! Spells that belong to more than one school or subschool are marked with a (+).

Good idea. Since I now have some dual-subschool spells, I will start doing the same.


TRANSMUTATION

School Change Summary:

Moved to other schools: Control Water, Control Weather, Control Winds, Heat Metal, Knock, Mage Hand, Message, Open/Close, Reverse Gravity, Sculpt Sound, Telekinesis, Whispering Wind

Moved or copied from other schools: ArcaneLock, Arcane Mark, Divine Favor, Divine Power, Fire Seeds, Freedom, Gentle Repose, Implosion, Phantom Steed, Shambler, Telepathic Bond

Absent: Alter Self, Animal Shapes, Awaken, Bear's Endurance, Bear's Endurance, Mass, Bull's Strength, Bull's Strength, Mass, Cat's Grace, Cat's Grace, Mass, Chill Metal, Command Plants, Control Plants, Control Winds, Diminish Plants, Eagle's Splendor, Eagle's Splendor, Mass, Flame Arrow, Flesh to Stone, Fox's Cunning, Fox's Cunning, Mass, Goodberry, Keen Edge, Mage's Lucubration, Magic Stone, Mnemonic Enhancer, Owl's Wisdom, Owl's Wisdom, Mass, Polymorph, Pyrotechnics, Quench, Reduce Animal, Repel Wood, Shapechange, Stone to Flesh, Transformation, Transmute Metal to Wood, Virtue, Wood Shape


This bloody school took me hours by itself. Mobility is gone; it was an effect-based distinction, and I didn't like that the same spell would switch subschools just for giving a bonus to Jump checks instead of a bonus to, say, Strength checks. That felt wrong. The Polymorph school stayed mostly intact. Artifice was split into Alteration, Augment, and Imbuement, depending on the way the spell worked. Imbuement was split into Augment and Imbuement to limit how massive it would be. Manipulation mostly merged into Alteration and Imbuement, with the remaining effects (like reverse gravity) moved to other schools, primarily Evocation (Control). You will need a Manipulation subschool, but it should be much smaller than the old one; Alteration and Imbuement do a better job of maintaining a consistent feel.

Looks better than what I have.


Finally, the Time subschool was added. Not many spells in it, but time manipulation feels fairly different from anything else Transmutation tends to do, so I felt that it belonged as a unique school - just like Divination (Scrying) is a unique school despite its small size.

Reasonable enough, but I'll be combining this with what's left of the Manipulation subschool.


Alteration: An alteration spell changes the physical state of anything with a material form.
Arcane Mark, Blink, Changestaff (+), Clone (+), Disintegrate, Ethereal Jaunt, Etherealness, Erase, Fabricate, Fertility/Infertility, Make Whole, Mending, Move Earth, Passwall, Plant Growth, Polymorph Any Object, Purify Food and Drink, Rusting Grasp, Secret Page, Shape Stone, Shape Wood, Shrink Item, Snare, Soften Earth and Stone, Spike Growth, Spike Stones, Transmute Flesh and Stone, Transmute Mud and Rock, Wall of Stone, Warp Wood

Since Blink, Ethereal Jaunt, and Etherealness only affect creatures, they surely belong in Polymorph.

I would split Alteration and Polymorph based on whether the subjects are creatures after the spell takes effect, rather than before. This affects Changestaff, Flesh to Stone, Liveoak, Polymorph any Object, and Stone to Flesh. Of these Flesh to Stone and Polmorph any Object (and, I would guess, Transmute Flesh and Stone) would be in both subschools.

I had to read through Wall of Stone several times before I saw your reasoning there. Well reasoned.


Augment: An augment spell enhances the existing physical or mental abilities of an object or creature.
Barkskin, Combat Transformation, Conjure Magic Weapon (+), Divine Favor, Divine Power, Expeditious Retreat, Farsight, Glibness (+), Jump, Longstrider, Ironwood, Magic Fang (Greater), Magic Vestment, Magic Weapon (Greater), Righteous Might (+), Shillelagh, Stoneskin, Totemic Power (Greater, Mass), Totemic Mind (Greater, Mass)

Since Ironwood creates ironwood rather than turning normal wood into ironwood, it is a better fit for Conjuration (Creation) than Transmutation.

The Totemic Power/Mind spells would be rearranged versions of Bull's Strength and such?


Imbuement: An imbuement spell infuses an object or creature with magic, granting it new abilities or even the semblance of life.
Air Walk, Align Weapon (+), Animate Objects, Animate Plants, Animate Rope, Arcane Lock (+), Backbiter, Bless Water (+), Bless Weapon (+), Changestaff (+), Darkvision, Disrupting Weapon (+), Entangle, Feather Fall, Fire Seeds (+), Fly, Freedom (Mass), Lifeoak (+), Overland Flight, Pass without Trace (+), Phantom Steed(+), Rope Trick (+), Shambler (+), Spellstaff, Spider Climb, Telepathic Bond (+), Water Breathing, Water Walk


Polymorph: A polymorph spell changes a creature's body into a new form.
Animal Growth, Assimilate, Baleful Polymorph, Enlarge Person (Mass), Gaseous Form, Giant Vermin, Implosion, Iron Body, Meld into Stone, Oak Body, Reduce Person (Mass), Reincarnate (+), Righteous Might (+), Shadow Body (+), Statue, Tree Shape, Wind Walk

I would put Changestaff and Liveoak in Polymorph.


Time: A time spell manipulates time itself, speeding or slowing its passage for the subject.
Gentle Repose, Haste, Slow, Temporal Stasis, Time Stop

The list fits the description.


Oh my goodness this took forever :smalleek:. But I think that the system is much better defined for it. At least I hope so...

Look's like it so far. I will return to this again after I've finished.


I haven't taken the time to go through the whole list case-by-case like Vadskye, but I'll probably end up doing something like what I describe below (using the terms given above as best I can), with more use of dual-schooling for spells that are borderline (and new Dual-school rules).

I am not sufficiently sure what you want here to give much useful advice.


Enchantment
Charm (including Morale/Emotion), Compulsion
As I said earlier, I don't see a lot of difference between forcing some one to act a certain way and prohibiting them from acting. The only major difference I can understand in the school are between those spells that alter the way your brain functions and those that just cut it out of the loop altogether.

I suggest changing the subschool names so that they fit the new meanings better. (Not that Compulsion was much of a fit for the old meaning.)


Illusion
Figment, Glamer, possibly 1 more
Illusion is sort of like Evocation, except that its about Sound and Light energy with a little bit of flavor from Enchantment; also, any spells that can obscure or hide something will probable be dual-schooled with this and Abjuration.
The biggest change I'm making is that the Shadow spells are gone. I know that the way magic in D&D operates illusions can be a little difficult to play; I don't think the way to solve the problem is to add in spells that aren't illusion-ary in any way.

Aren't partially real illusions by definition somewhat illusion-ary?


Excellent. Fair warning of potential changes


after further consideration, I am considering finding a way to merge Beguilement/Charm and Emotion (they seem very similar),

Given that consistency isn't an issue, that makes sense.


and I think that Transmutation would benefit from having the Animation subschool back (it would get Animate Objects, Animate Plants, Animate Rope, Changestaff, Entangle, Lifeoak, and Shambler). But I didn't want to change my post in case it caused confusion.

Even with change logs, that can cause confusion.


Let's just chalk it up to personal assumptions on my part and move on.

Yes, let's.


Divinations: I strongly support Vadskye's suggested changes. You don't gain knowledge of a creature you detect with a locate spell, you sense it's direction and movement relative to you. Analyze Dweomer seems a dual subschool spell though, since it incorporates detect magic (an awareness spell) with an analysis function (a knowledge spell).

Vadskye's definition of the Awareness subschool does not fit my image of the subschool as well as I thought. On consideration, I think something like 'granting a sense to the subject or expanding an existing sense' fits better. I'll need to fix that.


Enchantment: I second considering a Charm / Emotion merger. Charm gives you feelings of trust and suppresses suspicion (arguably).

I prefer to keep the existing subschools if at all workable.


Evocation: Not sure how I missed this before, but light isn't an energy? They're sufficiently distinct in concept I guess if you fluff that light is a mixed energy form (the prismatic spells have a bunch of assorted energy and other effects in them after all) while the more pure ones are the domain of energy, but they seem to have a lot of odd overlap in places. A more clear description might help, but I don't know what to suggest.

Why the decision to put sonic effects, shatter, and sympathetic vibration with Energy instead of Control?

There is a 3.5 convention that acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic are the energy types. This subschool actually is sorted by descriptor.


Unrelated side note, Invis Purge is poorly placed in the SRD :smallannoyed:

True.


Transmutation: ... will require more thought. Those seem like some really fine distinctions in places, but it may just be a case of needing better descriptions.

I look forward.

[Deepbluediver]

You can do Illusion as light and sound and whatever manipulation, but then you run into Transmutation and Evocation fluff on occasion, not to mention the fact that your illusions are actually 'real' in some non-trivial sense at that point because they move real things, and that makes the True Seeing fluff a bit weird.

I think that there are so many different spells with such a variety of effects that there will always be some overlap and at least a small amount of "it just is." I'm willing to accept this to have a fun and workable game, provided it's been minimized, and the cracks only show if you examine the system closely.

Also, I've seen the proposals before to combine stuff into super-schools instead, usually:
Energy- Evocation, Abjuration, Necromancy (including positive-energy healing)
Matter- Transmutation, Conjuration
Mental- Illusion, Enchantment, Divination

And then you can subschool or use descriptors to further divide that any way you need to.


I am not sufficiently sure what you want here to give much useful advice.

I'm just jumping on the bandwagon and adding my 2 cp. As I said, I think that it's easier to get a comprehensive and logical fix if you are willing to rearrange what schools some spells fit it, and try to be as inclusive with definitions as possible.


I suggest changing the subschool names so that they fit the new meanings better. (Not that Compulsion was much of a fit for the old meaning.)

Yes, I will do that. I was just trying to use the same names as had been mentioned in this thread so I didn't need to relist all the included spells.


Aren't partially real illusions by definition somewhat illusion-ary?

I guess you might disagree, but I say "no". I see "reality" as being binary; some either is real or it isn't. You can't be "partially real" any more than you can be "partially dead". Something can be insubstantial, or composed only of light, but that doesn't make it "not real", that just means its physical properties are different, the same way that water or air aren't "not real" just because they're "not solid". (I used some double negatives in there, sorry, it was hard to articulate what I meant)

I don't see Shadow Evocation/Conjuration as being "part real", I just see them as weaker versions of regular evocations and conjurations. If you wanted to have some Illusion spells that made you think things where real (like heat or pain) I could maybe understand that depending on how they where fluffed, but I would want them to deal non-lethal (i.e. not-real) damage instead.

The way magic was originally set up in D&D made it hard to play use illusions, but I don't think that giving the school non-illusion spells is the way to fix that. I see it as a problem in the same vein with giving evocation-style spells to every other school, and thereby eviscerating Evocation's effectiveness.

Also, casters already tend to be at least one order of magnitude more versatile than melee classes, so I find spells that let you emulate multiple other spells to be particularly distasteful. But maybe that's just me.

[Vadskye]

Deepbluediver:

My version of the DS rules lets you prepare a spell if you have access to either school (instead of requiring both). In addition, many of the published DS spells aren't really borderline or overlapping effects; they're two entirely separate things under one heading. For example, a number of DS spells from Dragon Magic (I think that's the book, anyhow) give you dragon like features (claws, wings) for a time, which you then expend to use a one-time evocation. I hated them.
I very much disagree. Dual-school spells should be used when no one school can produce all of the effects associated with the spell, just as dual-subschool spells are used when no one subschool can produce all of the effects associated with the spell. Mislead is a perfect example of a dual-subschool spell, and Incendiary Cloud is a perfect example of a dual-school spell; Conjuration can't manipulate fire, and Evocation can't make clouds. It has to be dual-school, and if you ban either school, you shouldn't be able to cast the spell.

With that said, I agree that "two separate things under one heading" is poor design and not the point of dual-school spells.


I, too, was left wracking my brains over how to classify this stuff. One thing that crossed my mind was altering how Illusion was defined so that it didn't work with sound and light, but was entirely mental.
Interesting, but I ended up taking a completely different approach. Restricting illusions to be purely mind-affecting limits its versatility and makes it too much like Enchantment, in my view. I'll post my new Illusion when I get a chance.


Whatever the cause, we agree that the end result is a hodge-podge of poor classifications and outright contradictions.
Indeed.


Yes, I understand that. But I'm hoping that I can avoid "poorly defined" and instead have "simply defined"; I shouldn't need more than a single sentence to clearly outline any school or subschool (that's the goal anyhow, failure IS a possibility). I think your definitions are overly specific, and yet still seem inadequate, since you where talking about DSing stuff before I mentioned it.
I think all of my subschools can be described adequately in a single sentence.


I will, someday; I've got other projwects on my plate right this moment. Any spells in particular you think I would have trouble with in my system? We probably agree on a large number of the spells; I feel like we're just haggling over the details.
Try placing Magic Weapon and Magic Fang. If you put them in different subschools, I would argue that system is unintuitive.


Edit: I'm open to altering the various subschools, if necessary. For example, I'd consider subschools of "changes an objects or creatures form" vs. "grants new abilities to creatures and objects while keeping the form the same" instead, if that was easier to divide along.
That would help.


Yes, I understand that it wouldn't be perfect; that's part of the reason I'm advocating more DSing (sorry if I'm starting to sound like a broken record here). If the end result of the spell is the same, I don't much mind which school you get at it from. If you think its weird that your pyromaniac sorcerer wouldn't protect people, then don't; but don't prohibit him from being good at it if that's what the player wants. A potential problem with your system might be that my Pyromaniac wizard is screwed if he ever has to visit the plane of fire or deal with a fire elemental.
A pyromaniac can always choose to take Abjuration spells. He can also choose not to take those spells. Your system forces that choice by automatically allowing him to reverse the spells.

Tarkisflux:

He's already responded, but I'm curious why you're concerned about it. Balance between schools matters because of specialization (for wizards anyway) and spell focus value. Balance between descriptors matters for interaction reasons. But subschools live in between those things and rarely have mechanical rules at all, so the number of spells per subschool doesn't seem like a really important thing.
It is not strictly necessary (I retained the Scrying subschool, after all), but it strikes me as poor design to have wildly varying numbers without a good reason. It restricts the degree to which you can later attach mechanics to subschools. For example, I plan on creating "mage's robes" magic items which grant bonuses to specific subschools. It is okay if some subschools are exceptionally weak; that just means that those robes are rare. But I would rather avoid having massive subschools that comprise 50% or more of the school in question.


You can do Illusion as light and sound and whatever manipulation, but then you run into Transmutation and Evocation fluff on occasion, not to mention the fact that your illusions are actually 'real' in some non-trivial sense at that point because they move real things, and that makes the True Seeing fluff a bit weird.

Alternately, 'an illusion' could be a magical energy that exists in space and overrides the standard perceptions of people that witness / interact with it. Then it doesn't gain light/darkness because those are actual energy manipulation (and not subject to True Seeing or similar abilities) instead of just an external sensory override. An illusion of darkness would achieve the same mechanical effect, but be countered by True Seeing instead of a [Light] spell because it's a false sensory experience.
Illusions have always had the ability to be "real" in a non-trivial sense. Invisibility has no save to disbelieve, and the pattern spells explicitly create light. It has just been poorly defined and inconsistent. Likewise, True Seeing always had the ability to see through "real" effects, given that it could see through magical darkness when magical darkness was an Evocation effect. I think that's fine; True Seeing is about something different than just "ignoring unreal effects".


In order to respond to at least part of your post to you sooner rather than later, I will be replying to your post over multiple posts and a period of time.
Given the massive number of things being discussed, this is totally reasonable.


I will note which spells are absent, without attempting to guess which are renamed, which are intentionally removed, and which are accidentally left out.
Actually, I can do that for the remaining schools. It's good for me to keep track of how much I'm changing anyway, and it's work that would be much easier for me than for you


Reasonable enough, but I'll be combining this with what's left of the Manipulation subschool.
Makes perfect sense. That honestly probably fits the original designers' vision better.


Since Blink, Ethereal Jaunt, and Etherealness only affect creatures, they surely belong in Polymorph.
Honestly, I hated putting them in Alteration, but in my mind they fit in Polymorph even worse: you aren't actually changing the creature's form in any way, and that's the core definition of Polymorph. After further consideration, I realized that the problem is simply that they don't belong in Transmutation at all; they are textbook Conjuration spells that just move creatures to a different plane. In the absence of changing schools, I still prefer them in Alteration; it feels more like you are altering a property, which is Alteration, rather than changing a living form, which is Polymorph. This is really hair-splitting, though; I can see why you would put it in Polymorph.


I would split Alteration and Polymorph based on whether the subjects are creatures after the spell takes effect, rather than before. This affects Changestaff, Flesh to Stone, Liveoak, Polymorph any Object, and Stone to Flesh. Of these Flesh to Stone and Polmorph any Object (and, I would guess, Transmute Flesh and Stone) would be in both subschools.
This is reasonable, but it feels strange to me to call Liveoak a "Polymorph" spell. This is part of why I decided to being back the Animation subschool; I am much more comfortable calling Liveoak an Animation spell than a Polymorph spell. Changestaff would be dual-subschool Alteration/Animation, since it first changes the staff into a treant (Alteration) and then animates it (Animation). Flesh to Stone / Transmute Flesh and Stone are tricky, but I think they fit as Alteration/Polymorph. Polymorph Any Object is a crazy spell, and I'm happy to just wave a Alteration/Polymorph label at it and hope it never gets cast.


I had to read through Wall of Stone several times before I saw your reasoning there. Well reasoned.
Thanks. :smallsmile:


Since Ironwood creates ironwood rather than turning normal wood into ironwood, it is a better fit for Conjuration (Creation) than Transmutation.
Are you sure? Look at the material component; it requires "wood shaped into the form of the intended ironwood object". That indicates to me that it turns normal wood into ironwood.


The Totemic Power/Mind spells would be rearranged versions of Bull's Strength and such?
Indeed. Like I said above, I would be happy to make the list for this (including renamed spells) so things like this are easier to parse when you're going through.


Given that consistency isn't an issue, that makes sense.
Actually, if Charm is a descriptor, it shouldn't break any of the old effects which referenced "charm effects". 99% backwards compatible.


Even with change logs, that can cause confusion.
Agreed. However, it will need to happen; in the intervening time, I have made a couple more changes, particularly to Illusion (I think I figured it out!). I believe it would be more confusing for you to go over an old version of my changes and then have me talk about my new changes in my responses, so I'll get to work on updating my list. I might be able to keep the whole original list in a spoiler for clarity.


Vadskye's definition of the Awareness subschool does not fit my image of the subschool as well as I thought. On consideration, I think something like 'granting a sense to the subject or expanding an existing sense' fits better. I'll need to fix that.
I am always amused when miscommunication yields better results. :smalltongue: It happened when you were looking at my original short descriptions, too - you took my description of a subschool and went in a different direction than I had imagined, but I ended up liking it better.

Seeing your response made my day. I love finding people who like working on such a detailed level to build the system up better!

EDIT: Here is my revised list of spells and spell schools, complete with lists of every moved, renamed, added, and removed spell.

After vastly more work than I had originally expected, I present my revised list of schools and subschools. First, I will summarize the key differences from your subschools. Note that we have slightly different goals. You are trying to create a subschool system for the core spell list that changes as little as possible. In some ways, this is a more difficult task, since the core schools are not well-defined. In contrast, I also change the schools of existing spells, and assign a number of spells to belong to more than one school or subschool. To make things more complicated, I also include some new spells and got rid of some spells which used to be in core (as part of my overall system revision, Rise). As a result, not all of my changes will make sense for you. I do think some distributions (Necromancy and Transmutation in particular) are more clearly defined than what we had before.

With that said, here are my lists, along with explanations for what differs from yours! Spells that belong to more than one school or subschool are marked with a (+).

ABJURATION
Bulwark was renamed to "Interdiction". Effects which negate dimensional travel were moved to Negation. Undetectable Alignment makes more sense in Shielding. Negation only contains spells which actively negate effects; defensive "negation" was too ill-defined as a concept. If mind blank is Negation, then logically I would say that protection from energy should also be a negation effect. But if you move all of the defensive "negation" effects to Negation, it is even more bloated than Shielding, and lacks a strong definition to hold it together. Shielding is still larger than I would prefer, but I don't know a good way to subdivide it further.

Interdiction: An interdiction spell hedges out creatures or forces of an opposing alignment or type.
Antilife Shell, Banishment (+), Cloak of Chaos, Dismissal (+), Forbiddance (+), Holy Aura, Magic Circle against <Alignment> (+), Planar Binding (Lesser/Greater) (+), Protection from <Alignment>, Shield of Law, Unholy Aura

Negation: A negating spell negates magical effects.
Ablative Shield, Ablative Fortress, Antimagic Field, Break Enchantment, Dispel Magic (Lesser/Greater), Dimensional Anchor (+), Dimensional Lock, Emancipation, Globe of Invulnerability (Lesser), Invisibility Purge, Mage's Disjunction, Remove Curse, Spelltheft (Lesser/Greater)

Shielding: A shielding spell protects creatures or objects from harm.
Death Ward (Mass) (+), Endure Elements, Energy Conversion, Entropic Shield, Fire Shield (+), Inertial Shield, Mage Armor (Greater), Mind Blank, Nondetection, Protection from Energy (Greater), Protection from Spells, Repulsion, Resist Energy (Greater), Resistance, Retributive Shield, Sanctuary (+), Sequester (+), Share Pain (Forced, Greater) (+), Shield, Shield of Faith, Shield Other (Greater) (+), Spell Immunity (Greater), Spell Resistance, Spell Turning, Undetectable Alignment

Warding: A warding spell protects an area or object from intrusion. If one warding spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Spot skill drops by 4. The DC drops by an additional 2 for each additional warding spell beyond the second.
Alarm, Arcane Lock (+), Explosive Runes, Fire Trap (+), Forbiddance (+), Glyph of Warding (Greater), Guards and Wards (+), Mage's Private Sanctum, Sepia Snake Sigil (+)

Spells added from other schools: Fire Shield (+), Invisibility Purge, Mage Armor, Planar Binding (Lesser/Greater) (+), Sepia Snake Sigil (+)

Spells moved to other schools: Atonement, Freedom, Hold Portal, Imprisonment, Remove Fear, Stoneskin

New spells: Ablative Ward, Ablative Fortress, Dispel Magic (Lesser), Energy Conversion (+), Inertial Shield, Mage Armor (Greater only), Protection from Energy (Greater only), Retributive Shield, Resist Energy (Greater only), Share Pain (Greater) (+), Shield Other (Greater only) (+), Spelltheft (Lesser, Greater)

Removed spells: Antiplant Shell, Dispel <Alignment>, Freedom, Freedom of Movement, Hide from Animals, Hide from Undead, Protection from Arrows, Repel Metal or Stone, Repel Vermin

Renamed spells: Emancipation (formerly Freedom), Freedom (formerly Freedom of Movement)

CONJURATION
No huge changes from core. Creation is larger than I would like; I'm open to suggestions on how to shrink it.

Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates. If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence. \spell{Acid arrow} is a creation spell.
Acid Arrow (Greater), Acid Fog, Black Tentacles, Cloudkill, Clone (+), Create Food and Water, Create Water, Fog Cloud, Gate (+), Glitterdust, Grease, Heroes' Feast (+), Ice Storm (+), Incendiary Cloud (+), Mage's Faithful Hound, Mage's Magnificent Mansion, Major Creation, Mind Fog (+), Minor Creation, Obscuring Mist, Phantom Steed (+), Phase Door (+), Prying Eyes (Greater) (+), Rope Trick (+), Sea of Fog, Sea of Solid Fog, Secure Shelter, Sepia Snake Sigil (+), Shambler(+), Sleet Storm, Solid Fog, Stinking Cloud, Storm of Vengeance (+), Wall of Ice (+), Wall of Thorns, Web, Unseen Servant

Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a manifestation of a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, the manifestation disappears. A summoned creature also disappears if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. Because summoning spells do not physically transport the actual creature or object, even if the manifestation is injured or destroyed, the original is unharmed. However, it takes 24 hours for the manifestation to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again. Most summoning spells, including the summon monster and summon nature's ally spells, will automatically summon a different creature of the same type should this occur.
Creeping Doom, Elemental Swarm, Insect Plague, Mount, Stampede (Greater), Summon Instrument, Summon Monster X, Summon Nature's Ally X, Summon Nature's Army

Translocation: A translocation spell transports one or more creatures or objects a great distance. The most powerful of these spells can cross planar boundaries. Unlike summoning spells, the transportation is (unless otherwise noted) one-way and not dispellable. Many translocation effects involve teleportation.
Banishment (+), Blink, Dimension Door (Mass), Dimension Slide, Dismissal (+), Dissipating Touch, Ethereal Jaunt, Etherealness, Gate (+), Imprisonment, Instant Retrieval, Maze, Phase Door (+), Planar Binding (Lesser/Greater) (+), Plane Shift, Refuge, Retrieve (Greater), Rope Trick (+), Secret Chest, Shadow Walk, Teleport (Greater), Teleport Object, Teleportation Circle, Transport via Plants, Tree Stride, Word of Recall

Spells added from other schools: Banishment (+), Blink, Clone (+), Dismissal (+), Ethereal Jaunt, Etherealness, Ice Storm (+), Imprisonment, Mind Fog (+), Prying Eyes (Greater) (+), Shadow Walk, Wall of Ice (+)

Spells moved to other schools: Delay Poison, Cure X Wounds (Mass), Inflict X Wounds (Mass), Harm, Heal (Mass), Mage Armor, Neutralize Poison, Raise Dead, Regenerate, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Disease, Remove Paralysis, Restoration (Lesser/Greater), Resurrection, Trap the Soul, True Resurrection, Wall of Stone

New spells: Acid Arrow (Greater only), Dimension Door (mass only), Dimension Slide, Dissipating Touch, Mage Armor (Greater only), Sea of Fog, Sea of Solid Fog, Stampede (Greater), Summon Nature's Army

Removed spells: Acid Splash, Planar Ally (Lesser/Greater), Summon Swarm, Wall of Iron

Renamed spells: Instant Retrieval (formerly Instant Summons)

DIVINATION
Awareness: A awareness spell reveals objects, creatures, or effects within an area. Some awareness spells have cone-shaped areas. These move with you and extend in the direction you look. The cone defines the area that you can examine each round. If you study the same area for multiple rounds, you can often gain additional information, as noted in the descriptive text for the spell.
Alarm (+), Analyze Dweomer (+), Arcane Sight (Greater), Darkvision, Detect Animals or Plants, Detect <Alignment>, Detect Poison, Detect Scrying, Detect Secret Doors, Detect Snares and Pits, Detect Thoughts, Detect Thoughts (Greater), Detect Undead, Discern Lies, Farsight, Find Traps, Locate Creature, Locate Entity, Locate Object, Prying Eyes (Greater only) (+), See Invisibility, True Seeing

Communication: A communication spell magically enhances communication between creatures, often by transcending linguistic barriers or distance.
Commune, Comprehend Languages, Dream (+), Nightmare (+), Prying Eyes (Greater) (+), Sending, Telepathic Bond (Mass) (+), Tongues

Knowledge: A knowledge spell grants the recipient information. Most knowledge spells give knowledge about the present, but some can reveal information about the future as well.
Analyze Dweomer (+), Augury, Commune with Nature, Discern Location, Discern Vulnerability, Divination, Find the Path, Foresight, Guidance, Identify, Know Direction, Legend Lore, Locate Creature, Locate Object, Moment of Prescience (Lesser/Greater), Object Reading, Precognition (Lesser/Greater), Read Magic, Revelation, True Strike, Vision

Scrying: A scrying spell creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.
Any creature trained in Spellcraft can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Spellcraft check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell. Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked.
Arcane Eye, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Scrying (Greater)

Spells added from other schools: Alarm (+), Darkvision, Dream (+), Nightmare (+), Sending

Spells moved to other schools: Prying Eyes (regular only)

New spells: Discern Vulnerability, Farsight, Locate Entity, Moment of Prescience (Lesser/Greater only), Precognition (Lesser/Greater), Revelation,

Removed spells: Contact Other Plane, Detect Magic, Speak with Animals, Speak with Plants, Status, Stone Tell

ENCHANTMENT
Very similar to your schools. I replaced Charm with Beguilement and added a couple of effects to it. The additions only make sense as dual-school spells, so you're fine sticking with Charm. Sleep was moved to Compulsion because it was nerfed; it now fills creatures with a magical compulsion to sleep instead of putting them to sleep instantly, making it no longer an instant-kill in combat.

Compulsion: A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in a certain way. Some compulsion spells determine the subject’s actions or the effects on the subject, some compulsion spells allow you to determine the subject’s actions when you cast the spell, and others give you ongoing control over the subject.
Animal Messenger, Command (Greater), Confusion (Mass), Deep Slumber, Demand (+), Dominate Monster, Dominate Person, Geas/Quest (Lesser), Hideous Laughter, Hypnotic Pattern (+), Illusory Script (+), Insanity, Irresistible Dance, Power Word Command, Rainbow Pattern (+), Scintillating Pattern (+), Sleep (Mass), Song of Discord, Suggestion (Mass), Symbol of Insanity, Symbol of Sleep, Zone of Truth

Emotion: An emotion spell influences the subject's emotions.
Aid, Antipathy, Attraction, Aversion, Bane, Bless, Calm Emotions, Cause Fear, Charm Monster (Mass), Charm Person (Mass), Crushing Despair, Good Hope, Fear, Heroes' Feast (+), Heroism (Greater), Phantasmal Killer (+), Prayer, Rage, Remove Fear, Symbol of Fear, Symbol of Persuasion, Sympathy, Weird (+)

Inhibition: An inhibition spell impedes the functioning of the target's mind, typically preventing the target from acting.
Binding, Feeblemind, Hold Monster (Mass), Hold Person (Mass), Lullaby, Mind Fog (+), Power Word Blind, Power Word Stun, Sanctuary (+), Symbol of Stunning, Touch of Idiocy

No Subschool:
Glibness (+), Modify Memory

Spells added from other schools: Dream (+), Glibness (+), Heroes' Feast (+), Nightmare (+), Phantasmal Killer (+), Remove Fear, Sanctuary (+), Weird (+)

Spells moved to other schools: Power Word Kill

New spells: Attraction, Aversion, Cause Fear, Confusion (Mass only), Fear, Sleep (Mass only)

Removed spells: Animal Trance, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Daze, Enthrall, Hypnotism, Confusion (Lesser), Daze Monster

EVOCATION
A number of changes, but they all rely on shuffling spells between schools, so not necessarily relevant to you. Invocation was renamed to Channeling to avoid confusion with the warlock-style "invocation" concept, which appears more in my system than in core. You may want to stick with Invocation if you prefer the name. Illumination and its effects were moved to Illusion (Modulation), but that's not relevant to a core-based distribution. For your purposes, Illumination works perfectly fine as an Evocation school. Likewise, Control was expanded to include some of the Transmutation (Manipulation) effects.

Energy: An energy spell creates or manipulates energy, such as fire or electricity.
Burning Hands, Call Lightning (Storm), Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold (Lesser/Greater), Delayed Blast Fireball, Energy Conversion (+), Fire Shield (+), Fire Seeds (+), Fire Storm, Fireball, Fire Trap (+), Flame Strike, Flame Weapon, Flaming Sphere, Freezing Sphere, Heat Metal, Ice Storm (+), Incendiary Cloud (+), Lightning Bolt, Meteor Swarm, Polar Ray, Ray of Frost, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Shocking Grasp, Shout (Greater), Sound Burst, Storm of Vengeance(+), Sympathetic Vibration, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice (+)

Channeling: A channeling spell channels divine or other power.
Align Weapon (+), Atonement, Blasphemy, Bless Water (+), Bless Weapon (+), Chaos Hammer, Consecrate, Curse Water (+), Desecrate, Dictum, Hallow, Holy Smite, Holy Sword (+), Holy Word, Miracle, Order's Wrath, Unhallow, Unholy Blight, Word of Chaos

Control: A control spell manipulates forces and moves inanimate objects.
Blade Barrier, Clenched Fist, Control Water, Control Weather, Crushing Hand, Earthquake, Floating Disk, Forcecage, Forceful Hand, Grasping Hand, Gust of Wind, Hold Portal, Interposing Hand, Mage Armor (+), Knock, Levitate, Mage Hand, Mage's Sword, Magic Missile, Open/Close, Prismatic Sphere/Spray/Wall (+), Resilient Sphere, Reverse Gravity, Searing Light, Spiritual Weapon, Storm of Vengeance (+), Sunbeam, Sunburst, Telekinesis, Telekinetic Force/Maneuver/Sphere/Thrust, Tiny Hut, Wall of Force

Spells added from other schools: Align Weapon (+), Atonement, Bless Water (+), Bless Weapon (+), Control Weather, Curse Water (+), Fire Seeds (+), Fire Trap (+), Hold Portal, Incendiary Cloud (+), Knock, Levitate, Mage Armor, Mage Hand, Open/Close, Prismatic Sphere (+), Prismatic Wall (+), Reverse Gravity, Storm of Vengeance (+), Telekinesis

Spells moved to other schools: Continual Flame, Dancing Lights, Darkness, Daylight, Faerie Fire, Invisibility Purge, Light, Sending

New spells: Cone of Cold (Lesser/Greater only), Energy Conversion (+), Flame Weapon (merged from Flame Blade and Produce Flame), Mage Armor (Greater only), Telekinetic Force/Maneuver/Thrust

Removed spells: Deeper Darkness, Flame Blade, Helping Hand, Imbue with Spell Ability, Produce Flame, Whirlwind, Wind Wall

ILLUSION
Figments and shadows are no longer inherently unreal. Illusions which can be disbelieved gain the [Unreal] descriptor; any spell with the [Unreal] descriptor can be disbelieved by interaction. All rules baggage associated with disbelieving illusions is now explicitly tied to the [Unreal] descriptor, and any illusion without that descriptor cannot be disbelieved. This clarifies the ambiguity in the original rules; it was explicitly stated that all figments and glamers were "unreal", but many (such as Blur, Invisibility, and so on) could not be disbelieved. Now, Light is simply figment that creates a real effect, while Darkness is a glamer that creates a real effect. This neatly ties the illumination and other sensory manipulation spells to existing subschools, where they fit very nicely, and clarifies to what degree they are real or unreal. Silence and Invisibility are now in the same subschool again, as they should be.

Figment: A figment spell creates a sensation out of thin air.
Color Spray, Continual Flame (+), Dancing Lights, Daylight, Faerie Fire, Flare, Ghost Sound, Hypnotic Pattern (+), Illusory Wall, Light, Magic Mouth, Major Image, Message, Minor Image, Mirror Image, Mislead (+), Permanent Image, Persistent Image, Programmed Image, Rainbow Pattern (+), Scintillating Pattern (+), Silent Image, Whispering Wind

Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even disappear.
Blur, Darkness, Disguise Self, Displacement, False Vision, Hallucinatory Terrain, Illusory Script (+), Invisibility (Greater, Mass, Sphere), Magic Aura, Mirage Arcana, Misdirection, Mislead (+), Pass without Trace (+), Phantom Trap, Screen, Sculpt Sound, Seeming, Silence, Veil, Ventriloquism, Zone of Silence

Phantasm:
Dream (+), Nightmare (+), Phantasmal Killer (+), Phantom Maze, Weird (+)

Shadow: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy.
Project Image, Shades, Shadow Body (+), Shadow Conjuration/Evocation (Greater)

Spells added from other schools: Continual Flame, Dancing Lights, Darkness, Daylight, Faerie Fire, Light, Sculpt Sound

Spells moved to other schools: Dream, Nightmare, Phantasmal Killer, Shadow Walk, Weird

New spells: Phantom Maze, Shadow Body (+)

Removed spells: Simulacrum

NECROMANCY
Some major reshuffling here. Mortality is no longer a separate school; I felt that the fluff holding it together was just "the same as other subschools, but stronger", which isn't a good basis. Its spells were merged into other schools as appropriate. A new subschool, Vitalism, was added; it contains every effect which manipulates positive and negative energy. Life was expanded to include any spell which affects a creature's life force without directly affecting its body (treating "hit points" as being distinct from "affecting the body"). A number of these are new spells, but it should stand on its own without those additions. Flesh is largely the same; it also acquired the healing spells that don't channel positive energy, such as remove blindness/deafness, but you can leave those out without damaging its integrity. Spells which affect undead were merged into Vitalism for two reasons: first, undead are powered by negative energy; second, both Undeath and Vitalism were small schools that would benefit from being merged. Spirit was renamed to Soul, but that doesn't matter too much. Spirit has some major school-shuffling.

Flesh: A flesh spell affects the home of a creature's life energy: its body. Many flesh spells inflict physical disabilities.
Assimilate (+), Blindness/Deafness, Contagion, Delay Poison, Destruction, Ghoul Touch, Neutralize Poison, Power Word Blind, Ray of Clumsiness, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Disease, Restoration (Lesser/Greater), Symbol of Pain, Symbol of Weakness, Touch of Fatigue, Waves of Exhaustion, Waves of Fatigue

Life: A life spell manipulates the subject's life force directly.
Crush Life (Greater, Mass), Death Knell, Death Ward (Mass) (+), False Life, Finger of Death, Link Vitality (Mass), Power Word Kill, Share Pain (Forced) (+), Shield Other (Greater) (+), Slay Living, Spectral Hand, Transfer Suffering(Lesser/Mass), Symbol of Death, Vampiric Touch, Wail of the Banshee

Soul: A soul spell manipulates the subject's soul, either restoring it to its proper place or fragmenting it for terrible purposes.
Animate Dead (+), Astral Projection, Clone (+), Create Greater Undead (+), Create Undead (+), Reincarnate (+), Resurrection, Revivify, Soul Bind, Speak with Dead, Trap the Soul, True Resurrection

Vitalism: An vitalism spell channels positive or negative energy. This can be used to enhance or destroy a subject's life energy, or to manipulate creatures powered by negative energy.
Animate Dead (+), Chill Touch, Circle of Death, Command Undead, Control Undead, Create Greater Undead (+), Create Undead (+), Cure X Wounds (Mass), Disrupt Undead, Disrupting Weapon (+), Energy Drain, Enervation, Harm, Heal (Mass), Heal Mount, Inflict X wounds (Mass), Regenerate, Undeath to Death

No subschool:
Bestow Curse, Mark of Justice

Spells added from other schools: Death Ward (Mass) (+), Delay Poison, Cure X Wounds (Mass), Disrupting Weapon (+), Inflict X Wounds (Mass), Harm, Heal (Mass), Neutralize Poison, Power Word Kill, Raise Dead, Regenerate, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Disease, Remove Paralysis, Restoration (Lesser/Greater), Resurrection, Trap the Soul, True Resurrection

Spells moved to other schools: Cause Fear, Fear, Gentle Repose, Symbol of Fear

New spells: Assimilate (+), Crush Life (Greater/Mass), Link Vitality (Mass), Ray of Clumsiness, Share Pain (Forced) (+), Shield Other (Greater only) (+), Transfer Suffering (Lesser/Mass), Revivify

Removed spells: Blight, Disrupt Undead, Doom, Eyebite, Halt Undead, Horrid Wilting, Magic Jar, Scare

TRANSMUTATION
This bloody school took me hours by itself. Mobility is gone; it was an effect-based distinction, and I didn't like that the same spell would switch subschools just for giving a bonus to Jump checks instead of a bonus to, say, Strength checks. That felt wrong. The Polymorph school stayed mostly intact. Artifice was split into Alteration, Augment, and Imbuement, depending on the way the spell worked. Imbuement was split into Augment and Imbuement to limit how massive it would be. Manipulation mostly merged into Alteration and Imbuement, with the remaining effects (like reverse gravity) moved to other schools, primarily Evocation (Control). You will need a Manipulation subschool, but it should be much smaller than the old one; Alteration and Imbuement do a better job of maintaining a consistent feel. Finally, the Time subschool was added. Not many spells in it, but time manipulation feels fairly different from anything else Transmutation tends to do, so I felt that it belonged as a unique school - just like Divination (Scrying) is a unique school despite its small size.

Update: Animation was re-added to help deal with somewhat ambiguous spells like Changestaff and Liveoak. I'm still trying to decide whether I like it better with Animation or without.


Animation: An animation spell grants temporary "life" to an affected object.
Animate Objects, Animate Plants, Animate Rope, Changestaff (+), Entangle, Entangling Growth, Liveoak (+), Rope Trick (+), Shambler (+)

Alteration: An alteration spell changes the physical state of anything with a material form.
Arcane Mark, Changestaff (+), Disintegrate, Erase, Fabricate, Fertility/Infertility, Make Whole, Mending, Move Earth, Passwall, Plant Growth, Polymorph Any Object, Purify Food and Drink, Rusting Grasp, Secret Page, Shape Stone, Shape Wood, Shrink Item, Snare, Soften Earth and Stone, Spike Growth, Spike Stones, Transmute Flesh and Stone, Transmute Mud and Rock, Wall of Stone, Warp Wood

Augment: An augment spell enhances the existing physical or mental abilities of an object or creature.
Barkskin, Combat Transformation, Divine Favor, Divine Power, Expeditious Retreat, Glibness (+), Jump, Longstrider, Ironwood, Magic Fang (Greater), Magic Vestment, Magic Weapon (Greater), Righteous Might (+), Shillelagh, Stoneskin, Totemic Power (Mass), Totemic Mind (Mass)

Imbuement: An imbuement spell infuses an object or creature with magic, granting it new abilities.
Air Walk, Align Weapon (+), Arcane Lock (+), Backbiter, Bless Water (+), Bless Weapon (+), Disrupting Weapon (+), Feather Fall, Fire Seeds (+), Fly, Freedom (Mass), Overland Flight, Phantom Steed(+), Spellstaff, Spider Climb, Telepathic Bond (+), Water Breathing, Water Walk

Polymorph: A polymorph spell changes a creature's body into a new form.
Animal Growth, Assimilate (+), Baleful Polymorph, Enlarge Person (Mass), Gaseous Form, Giant Vermin, Implosion, Iron Body, Meld into Stone, Oak Body, Reduce Person (Mass), Reincarnate (+), Righteous Might (+), Shadow Body (+), Statue, Tree Shape, Wind Walk

Temporal: A temporal spell manipulates time itself, speeding or slowing its passage for the subject.
Gentle Repose, Haste, Imprisonment (+), Slow, Temporal Stasis, Time Stop

Spells added from other schools: Arcane Lock (+), Arcane Mark, Divine Favor, Divine Power, Fire Seeds (+), Freedom, Gentle Repose, Implosion, Imprisonment (+), Phantom Steed (+), Shambler (+), Stoneskin, Telepathic Bond (+)

Spells moved to other schools: Blink, Control Water, Control Weather, Ethereal Jaunt, Etherealness, Heat Metal, Knock, Levitate, Mage Hand, Message, Open/Close, Pass without Trace, Reverse Gravity, Sculpt Sound, Telekinesis, Whispering Wind

New spells: Assimilate (+), Backbiter, Entangling Growth, Fertility/Infertility (merged from part of Diminish Plants and Plant Growth), Freedom (Mass only), Oak Body, Shadow Body (+), Totemic Power (Greater, Mass) (merged from Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, and Cat's Grace), Totemic Mind (Greater, Mass) (merged from Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, and Owl's Wisdom), Transmute Flesh and Stone (merged from Flesh to Stone and Stone to Flesh)

Removed spells: Alter Self, Animal Shapes, Awaken, Bear's Endurance (Mass), Bull's Strength (Mass), Cat's Grace (Mass), Chill Metal, Command Plants, Control Plants, Control Winds, Diminish Plants, Eagle's Splendor (Mass), Flame Arrow, Flesh to Stone, Fox's Cunning (Mass), Goodberry, Keen Edge, Mage's Lucubration, Magic Stone, Mnemonic Enhancer, Owl's Wisdom (Mass), Polymorph, Pyrotechnics, Quench, Reduce Animal, Repel Wood, Shapechange, Stone to Flesh, Transformation, Transmute Metal to Wood, Virtue, Wood Shape

Renamed spells: Combat Transformation (formerly Transformation), Shape Stone (formerly Stone Shape), Shape Wood (formerly Wood Shape)

[Deepbluediver]

I very much disagree. Dual-school spells should be used when no one school can produce all of the effects associated with the spell, just as dual-subschool spells are used when no one subschool can produce all of the effects associated with the spell.

I would be willing to make rules for some a small number of spells which do seem to require both types of effects, but I would do so on a case-by-case basis. Clone, for example, has Conjuration's creation and Necromancy's soul-switching.

Part if it might be that I took a different approach to redesigning the Wizard as well. Rather than banning certain schools, my Wizard starts out only being able to prepare spells from a small number of schools, and learns more as he levels up. So it never needs to deal with "banned" schools or effects being prohibited, instead its just two different wizards coming up with different ways of achiveing the same effect.

Overall, I think that even when allowing both schools access, the number of DS spells would be small in comparison to the total amount. And double DS spells (requiring both) would be a further fraction of that.
In other words, if any player or DM doesn't want to deal with it, then avoiding such complications would be relatively easy.


Mislead is a perfect example of a dual-subschool spell, and Incendiary Cloud is a perfect example of a dual-school spell; Conjuration can't manipulate fire, and Evocation can't make clouds. It has to be dual-school, and if you ban either school, you shouldn't be able to cast the spell.
...
With that said, I agree that "two separate things under one heading" is poor design and not the point of dual-school spells.

Then why do you think Mislead is a good example, then? It's not one spell, it's invisibility+mirror image. I'm honestly just confused here. :smallconfused:

Incendiary Cloud is a better example, though the first thought that springs to mind is "how many ways to make a cloud does one magic system really need? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html)"

Barring really interesting or unique effects (like Clone) I'd prefer to just scrap most of the spells that are combinations or other spells. There are about 100 pages worth of spells in the PHB alone, plus splats; I doubt we'll miss them.


Interesting, but I ended up taking a completely different approach. Restricting illusions to be purely mind-affecting limits its versatility and makes it too much like Enchantment, in my view.

Yeah, that's the problem; if it's energy- why isn't it Evocation? If it's mind-affecting, why isn't it Enchantment? That's what I admitted to using a certain amount of handwaving or going fluff-light on the explanation.
If I did ever scrap


Try placing Magic Weapon and Magic Fang. If you put them in different subschools, I would argue that system is unintuitive.

I would prefer to just make them one single spell, which can affect any weapon, natural or otherwise. What is gained by the Ranger being unable to enhance his swords, or the Wizard being unable to buff up his summoned/mind-controlled minion?

To turn the question back at you, why is Magic Vestements a Transmutation spell, but not Abjuration? Why is Fire Shield Abjuration but not Evocation? Why is Bless Weapon not Transmutation?
etc, etc, etc


I think all of my subschools can be described adequately in a single sentence.

Inclusively, yes. Each spell meets the definition of the subschool provided. However, those descriptions do not explain why other spells, like the ones listed above that ALSO fit that definition, are excluded.


A pyromaniac can always choose to take Abjuration spells. He can also choose not to take those spells. Your system forces that choice by automatically allowing him to reverse the spells.

I fail to see how it's "forcing" them if the only result is that hey have more options. Or how that would be a bad thing. :smallconfused:

I am not proposing that every evocation-spell also allows defense against that type of energy. I am saying that the SCHOOL should include those possibilities. Resist Energy is still a separate spell from Fireball; it can be taken by the pyromaniac if he wants, and ignored if he doesn't.
Maybe I didn't explain it adequately; sorry for the confusion.

[Vadskye]

I would be willing to make rules for some a small number of spells which do seem to require both types of effects, but I would do so on a case-by-case basis. Clone, for example, has Conjuration's creation and Necromancy's soul-switching.
Ooh. I had put Clone as Transmutation, but Conjuration makes more sense. Thanks.


Part if it might be that I took a different approach to redesigning the Wizard as well. Rather than banning certain schools, my Wizard starts out only being able to prepare spells from a small number of schools, and learns more as he levels up. So it never needs to deal with "banned" schools or effects being prohibited, instead its just two different wizards coming up with different ways of achiveing the same effect.
You still have the same issue. For some reason, an Enchantment wizard can figure out how to conjure magical fog from nothingness - but only if it also includes a minor mental inhibition. For some reason, an Abjuration wizard can figure out how to manipulate fire - but only if he is putting magic on himself or a random object. Doesn't make sense to me.


Then why do you think Mislead is a good example, then? It's not one spell, it's invisibility+mirror image. I'm honestly just confused here. :smallconfused:

Incendiary Cloud is a better example, though the first thought that springs to mind is "how many ways to make a cloud does one magic system really need? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html)"
Okay, Mislead isn't an ideal example, though it isn't just two effects slapped together (the illusion is very specific, and I like the "it appears exactly where you are" concept. There's some good blending there.) Incendiary Cloud and the spells you listed are better examples, but that doesn't change my point.


Barring really interesting or unique effects (like Clone) I'd prefer to just scrap most of the spells that are combinations or other spells. There are about 100 pages worth of spells in the PHB alone, plus splats; I doubt we'll miss them.
This unnecessarily limits creativity, while using a full dual-school system allows you to be hugely creative with spell design. Sure, you can get away with it. But why would you want to? I'd rather build a system that wasn't held back by the relatively arbitrary constraints of the schools.


Yeah, that's the problem; if it's energy- why isn't it Evocation? If it's mind-affecting, why isn't it Enchantment? That's what I admitted to using a certain amount of handwaving or going fluff-light on the explanation.
It's neither energy nor mind-affecting. Illusion, like all magic, rewrites the world as it sees fit. The closest word that I would use to describe its purview is "sensation". If you look at the spells I gave it, I think there is a strong, coherent theme running through the school now.


I would prefer to just make them one single spell, which can affect any weapon, natural or otherwise. What is gained by the Ranger being unable to enhance his swords, or the Wizard being unable to buff up his summoned/mind-controlled minion?
I considered that. I decided to keep them separate for two reasons: first, I like the idea that enhancing an object requires a different sort of magic than enhancing a creature. Second, it allows me to make a "Greater Magic Fang" that enhances all of the creature's natural weapons, which would be out of fluff for a Greater Magic Fangweapon.


To turn the question back at you, why is Magic Vestements a Transmutation spell, but not Abjuration? Why is Fire Shield Abjuration but not Evocation? Why is Bless Weapon not Transmutation?
Magic Vestment is transmutation because it is about augmenting something with magic. Just because that object is put on your body instead of in your hand does not change the school. Not every spell that improves defenses does or should belong to Abjuration; that would dilute the fluff of the school to the point that it would be meaningless.

Also, Fire Shield is Abjuration/Evocation (Energy, Shielding) [Fire] in my system. Bless Weapon is Evocation/Transmutation (Channeling, Imbuement) [Good]. Those are perfect dual-school spells, and exactly why I want the dual-school system to be the way I have it. Have you read my list of spells?


Inclusively, yes. Each spell meets the definition of the subschool provided. However, those descriptions do not explain why other spells, like the ones listed above that ALSO fit that definition, are excluded.
I think the answer is fairly intuitive: some spells fit the definition of a subschool, but also perform a different function. Those are dual-school spells.

The main exception that I can think of is Abjuration (Shielding). I need a better description for that to explain why, say, Protection from Evil doesn't belong to that school. However, I think that the subschool has a well-defined list of spells, so when I come up with a better description the subschool will function just fine.


I fail to see how it's "forcing" them if the only result is that hey have more options. Or how that would be a bad thing. :smallconfused:

I am not proposing that every evocation-spell also allows defense against that type of energy. I am saying that the SCHOOL should include those possibilities. Resist Energy is still a separate spell from Fireball; it can be taken by the pyromaniac if he wants, and ignored if he doesn't.
Maybe I didn't explain it adequately; sorry for the confusion.
That explains it! Okay, I can see that. I thought you were saying that Fireball and Resist Energy were somehow chosen as the same spell known. I can understand that - and with a slight tweak to the fluff, I could see Resist Energy being Abjuration/Evocation (Energy, Shielding).

I still prefer the existing school system. But I think a system like the one you are proposing would be functional and even fun.

[Deepbluediver]

Also, Fire Shield is Abjuration/Evocation (Energy, Shielding) [Fire] in my system. Bless Weapon is Evocation/Transmutation (Channeling, Imbuement) [Good]. Those are perfect dual-school spells, and exactly why I want the dual-school system to be the way I have it. Have you read my list of spells?

I thought I did; guess I screwed up though. :smallredface:
I double-checked to make sure Magic Vestments wasn't in Abjuration, missed out on seeing the others. Sorry about that.


That explains it! Okay, I can see that. I thought you were saying that Fireball and Resist Energy were somehow chosen as the same spell known. I can understand that - and with a slight tweak to the fluff, I could see Resist Energy being Abjuration/Evocation (Energy, Shielding).

I still prefer the existing school system. But I think a system like the one you are proposing would be functional and even fun.

Perhaps we where misunderstanding each other then; I'll try to keep that in mind with my replies to the rest of your comments.
I've also rearranged a few things to keep stuff in some sort of order.


This unnecessarily limits creativity, while using a full dual-school system allows you to be hugely creative with spell design. Sure, you can get away with it. But why would you want to? I'd rather build a system that wasn't held back by the relatively arbitrary constraints of the schools.

Was this written before the "Ah-ha!" moment at the end of my previous post? I'm not exactly certain what you find limiting about my system.

I've tried to reduce arbitrary classifications as much as possible, while at the same time retaining clear and concise boundaries about what is or isn't a given type of spell.


You still have the same issue. For some reason, an Enchantment wizard can figure out how to conjure magical fog from nothingness - but only if it also includes a minor mental inhibition. For some reason, an Abjuration wizard can figure out how to manipulate fire - but only if he is putting magic on himself or a random object. Doesn't make sense to me.

It doesn't really make sense to me either, which is why I would probably either scrap or rework those spells that had dual-effects. If a player wants to combine an Invisibility with Image to create their own Misleading effect, or Sleep with Solid Fog, then fine, but I don't see any reason to hand them that in a single package, when you've already got all of the component parts.
I would love to reduce the volume of the spell lists; they take up more space than any other part of the game, and often any several other parts combined.

I'm not sure if I'd put Fire Shield in Abjuration at all, under the explanation of- it's fire, and therefore Evocation; how its specifically used or shaped is immaterial.
You where the one who pointed out that "not every spell that improves defense should be in Abjuration"; now I'm confused as to why you moved it there in the first place. :smallconfused:


I considered that. I decided to keep them separate for two reasons: first, I like the idea that enhancing an object requires a different sort of magic than enhancing a creature. Second, it allows me to make a "Greater Magic Fang" that enhances all of the creature's natural weapons, which would be out of fluff for a Greater Magic Fangweapon.

I'd rather just make the spell inherently scale-able, but I can understand if you had different goals in mind.

[Vadskye]

I thought I did; guess I screwed up though. :smallredface:
I double-checked to make sure Magic Vestments wasn't in Abjuration, missed out on seeing the others. Sorry about that.
No worries :smallsmile:


Was this written before the "Ah-ha!" moment at the end of my previous post? I'm not exactly certain what you find limiting about my system.

I've tried to reduce arbitrary classifications as much as possible, while at the same time retaining clear and concise boundaries about what is or isn't a given type of spell.
A system that says "Multischool effects cannot exist" is more limiting than one which allows them. Your system cannot represent Clone, Mind Fog, Incendiary Cloud, or Reincarnation, as far as I can tell. That is why I consider it limiting.


It doesn't really make sense to me either, which is why I would probably either scrap or rework those spells that had dual-effects. If a player wants to combine an Invisibility with Image to create their own Misleading effect, or Sleep with Solid Fog, then fine, but I don't see any reason to hand them that in a single package, when you've already got all of the component parts.
I would love to reduce the volume of the spell lists; they take up more space than any other part of the game, and often any several other parts combined.
If you can generate coherent rules for blending spells, go for it. I have spent the last two weeks or so trying to create a system that allows me to build every spell from the ground up using the the same rules, and I can assure you that doing what you are describing is bloody difficult. Also, if casters can "create their own" Mislead, why not let them... create it? Use rules that allow combination spells to exist. That's exactly what Mislead probably was - some wizard thought "man, it would be great if I could become invisible and create an illusion at the same time", and so he smashed two spells together until they worked. So let players do that too! It's cool.


I'm not sure if I'd put Fire Shield in Abjuration at all, under the explanation of- it's fire, and therefore Evocation; how its specifically used or shaped is immaterial.
You where the one who pointed out that "not every spell that improves defense should be in Abjuration"; now I'm confused as to why you moved it there in the first place. :smallconfused:
Let me preface this by saying that I hate Abjuration, and would gladly replace it if I was willing to completely scrap the eight-school system. But I think that maintaining consistency with history has some merit.

Abjuration's traditional definition is "protecting stuff". This is all well and good, but it does not make a coherent school definition. My definition of Abjuration hinges on manipulating magic and magical energy in unusual ways to protect people. Fire Shield is Abjuration because it isn't just creating fire around you (which would be Evocation); it has a specific retributive and protective property that fire would not ordinarily have, and that Evocation does not have access to. Your definition of Evocation is much broader than mine, if you are trying to put Resist Energy into Evocation, so in your system Fire Shield would fit comfortably as a pure Evocation spell. However, I think it is better to keep Evocation more tightly defined when possible (particularly since it is already a very broadly defined school), so it is dual-school in my system.


I'd rather just make the spell inherently scale-able, but I can understand if you had different goals in mind.
My Magic Fang does inherently scale (+2 at 1st level, +3 at 8th, +4 at 14th, +5 at 20th), but "affects multiple natural weapons" isn't part of a normal scaling mechanism. In many situations, it is unnecessary; affecting multiple weapons is certainly not an inherent part of a Magic Fang spell. Thus, I make it a separate spell.

[Deepbluediver]

A system that says "Multischool effects cannot exist" is more limiting than one which allows them. Your system cannot represent Clone, Mind Fog, Incendiary Cloud, or Reincarnation, as far as I can tell. That is why I consider it limiting.

I already said here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15669097&postcount=33) that I was willing to make exceptions for spells are truly multi-school spanning in their effect. Clone is one, True Resurrection and/or Reincarnation might be others (it seems that if they are going to create a body from nothing they need something more than Necromancy, right?)

Things like Mind Fog and Incendiary Cloud are poorly designed spells, IMO. For the Fog, if it's a magical-based enchantment effect, why is it tied to a physical substance that has no other benefit? (the spell description even calls out that the mist doesn't impede vision) If it's something physical/chemical that needs to be inhaled or absorbed, why is it enchantment and not just Conjuration (creation) or something like that?
Clone is a good example because I can't think of any combination of other spells that achieves the same exact effect. Conjuration doesn't usually create living matter, and Summoned creatures aren't permanent. Transmutation might form a suitable host, but only with spells that are pretty broken/nonsensical anyway (turning a pebble into a human? explain that one to me). Enchantment can do mind control and Necromancy involves spirits, but neither one has a spell that plucks a dying soul out and injects it into a new body, AFAIK. So to get the exact effect, it requires a new spell.


Now, I'm flexible when it comes to things like this, and I like these sorts of discussions because they frequently highlight potential issues I haven't thought of. Despite my disagreements, I feel you've made some good points.

So what about a system that had both? Some spells are simply available to more than one school (without a separate name or designation), and other spells require components from two different schools (DS spells). Once I scrapped most of the spells that I felt are really just other spell-combinations I don't image there would be a ton of them left over, but if you allow for either then I think it could resolve a lot of the sticking points.
Because frankly, the more I think about this, the more I get the impression that there are spells of both varieties that just won't fit in with the other rule.


If you can generate coherent rules for blending spells, go for it. I have spent the last two weeks or so trying to create a system that allows me to build every spell from the ground up using the same rules, and I can assure you that doing what you are describing is bloody difficult. Also, if casters can "create their own" Mislead, why not let them... create it? Use rules that allow combination spells to exist. That's exactly what Mislead probably was - some wizard thought "man, it would be great if I could become invisible and create an illusion at the same time", and so he smashed two spells together until they worked. So let players do that too! It's cool.

Ok, but two things: First, why only allow it with some spells then? Why can't I just combine a Lightning Bolt with a Fireball? Or Summon Nature's Ally with Animal Growth? Or any other combination I can dream up?

Second, I still don't like handing these sorts of combinations to players on a silver platter; if that's your goal, then give them the tools but leave them to figure it out on their own.

Rather than calling two separate spells one thing, make it a Metamagic feat that allows you to doublecast simultaneously. Then I can mix and match whatever I really want.
Invisibility + Silent Image at low levels, Invisibility + Project Image if I've got the spell slots for it.
Or Solid Fog + Fireball = Incendiary Cloud


Let me preface this by saying that I hate Abjuration, and would gladly replace it if I was willing to completely scrap the eight-school system. But I think that maintaining consistency with history has some merit.
...
Abjuration's traditional definition is "protecting stuff". This is all well and good, but it does not make a coherent school definition.

See, there is a lot of stuff we do agree on: I considered scrapping Abjuration as well, and I would do it even if it messed with consistency, history, or precedent. I decided not to because there are a fair chunk of spells, mostly in the anti-magic or targets-other-spells categories, that just don't really fit in any other school, and yet are two numerous to make them all Universal.

I'd be happy to rename and/or redefine Abjuration if we could come up with some other title that fit and expanded or refocused it as necessary.


However, I think it is better to keep Evocation more tightly defined when possible (particularly since it is already a very broadly defined school), so it is dual-school in my system.

With all the other options for spells out there, "All elemental energy and nothing but elemental energy" (being fire, cold, and electric, mainly) seems like a fairly well-rounded definition to me. I was originally going to include [Force] spells as well, with some of the shielding-type ones (Mage Armor, Resilient Sphere) DS'd into Abjuration. But now I'm thinking that if we tweak the Abjuration school to include but not be limited to defensive effects, I could dump all of them in there instead. Everything from Magic Missile and Bigby's whatever Hand to Tenser's Floating Disk.
After all, I defined Illusion as being Light and Sound, which are certainly "real", even if they aren't solid. The names don't matter as much to me so long as the definition and spells associated with it hold up.

In my experience, Abjuration has always been kind of an odd-duck anyway, lagging almost as badly as Evocation, so it could certainly use a little help.


My Magic Fang does inherently scale (+2 at 1st level, +3 at 8th, +4 at 14th, +5 at 20th), but "affects multiple natural weapons" isn't part of a normal scaling mechanism. In many situations, it is unnecessary; affecting multiple weapons is certainly not an inherent part of a Magic Fang spell. Thus, I make it a separate spell.

Fair enough. Still, if the base spell just improved all natural weapons or wielded weapons for a certain time period, it wouldn't strike me as OP, since the same effect could be achieved by just using multiple casts of the non-greater version. Basically, all I see it doing is simplifying things, so that I turn 4 spells into 1. Or 4 spells into 2, if I just had a Mass Magic Weapon or something.
That way, even if you still think my system is more limited, spells that need it would wind up more flexible.

....Actually, when I say it like that I'm starting to think that "Mass" should just be a metamagic effect also. Then you can have a Sleep (just for example) spell that targets one creature, and you need to Metamagic it to hit the whole battlefield. And if you want to avoid your own allies, Mass+Sculpt it.
Lets add Metamagic to the list of things that needs some work, though probably not in this thread.


Edit: Just out of curiosity, where did you put the Contingency spell? I didn't see it on your list and its something I would probably move to Abjuration, just as an example.

[Lord of Shadows]

This thread is fascinating reading. Has anyone done (or found) any work on new spells for the new Subschools?

[Vadskye]

I already said here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15669097&postcount=33) that I was willing to make exceptions for spells are truly multi-school spanning in their effect. Clone is one, True Resurrection and/or Reincarnation might be others (it seems that if they are going to create a body from nothing they need something more than Necromancy, right?)
I think that having two different types of dual-school spell would be unintuitive, though. If a spell can fit fully within the spectrum of a single school, why make it (your version of) dual-school? (Incidentally, we should use different names for these different concepts. I propose that your definition of dual-school be called "hybrid school", following M:tG terminology.)


Things like Mind Fog and Incendiary Cloud are poorly designed spells, IMO. For the Fog, if it's a magical-based enchantment effect, why is it tied to a physical substance that has no other benefit? (the spell description even calls out that the mist doesn't impede vision) If it's something physical/chemical that needs to be inhaled or absorbed, why is it enchantment and not just Conjuration (creation) or something like that?
The true answer is probably because there's a fantasy trope of "fog that impairs your mental abilities", so it was made into a spell. The only way to fit that exact description is to blend Enchantment with Conjuration. Also, my version, Mind Fog actually does impair vision exactly like a Fog Cloud does.


Clone is a good example because I can't think of any combination of other spells that achieves the same exact effect. Conjuration doesn't usually create living matter, and Summoned creatures aren't permanent. Transmutation might form a suitable host, but only with spells that are pretty broken/nonsensical anyway (turning a pebble into a human? explain that one to me). Enchantment can do mind control and Necromancy involves spirits, but neither one has a spell that plucks a dying soul out and injects it into a new body, AFAIK. So to get the exact effect, it requires a new spell.
Polymorph Any Object functions very little like its original version in my system. :smalltongue: And I agree that Clone is a very good example. I just think that there are more spells like Clone than you do, it seems.


Now, I'm flexible when it comes to things like this, and I like these sorts of discussions because they frequently highlight potential issues I haven't thought of. Despite my disagreements, I feel you've made some good points.

So what about a system that had both? Some spells are simply available to more than one school (without a separate name or designation), and other spells require components from two different schools (DS spells). Once I scrapped most of the spells that I felt are really just other spell-combinations I don't image there would be a ton of them left over, but if you allow for either then I think it could resolve a lot of the sticking points.
Because frankly, the more I think about this, the more I get the impression that there are spells of both varieties that just won't fit in with the other rule.
Oh, I kind of already responded to this above. I think a system with both dual-school and hybrid-school spells would work. But I'm not convinced it is worth the complexity. What, specifically, do you gain by introducing hybrid-school spells? The core concept of a hybrid school spell is that it can the entirety of the spell can be expressed by multiple schools. I think that if this is true, the schools are insufficiently different.

Note that I think multiple schools can generate the same effect. For example, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, Necromancy, and Transmutation all have "save or die" spells in my system. However, the way that they accomplish those effects is very different: Conjuration teleports you under the earth (Imprisonment), Enchantment frightens you to death (Phantasmal Killer), Evocation smashes you into a tiny ball (Implosion), Necromancy snuffs out your life force (Finger of Death and others), and Transmutation locks you in a permanent time bubble (Temporal Stasis). However, none of those individual spells could belong fully to any other school like a hybrid spell would, because the cause, or the method, is so totally different.


Ok, but two things: First, why only allow it with some spells then? Why can't I just combine a Lightning Bolt with a Fireball? Or Summon Nature's Ally with Animal Growth? Or any other combination I can dream up?
You can (kind of); just do some spell research. The complicating factor is that assigning spell levels is a very tricky business. Lightfirening Boltball may or may not be 6th level; that's why I don't want to just let them be combined on the fly, or as part of a simple "one size fits all" mechanic.


Second, I still don't like handing these sorts of combinations to players on a silver platter; if that's your goal, then give them the tools but leave them to figure it out on their own.
But we need to show them the way with examples that demonstrate how interesting combining concepts can be! I haven't had a chance to start designing new spells that blend schools, but there are entire worlds of possibility there. Like a Necromancy/Transmutation spell that assimilates a creature's life force into yourself to make you look like them, a Conjuration/Divination spell that summons exactly what you need, even if you don't know what that is, or an Evocation/Illusion spell that creates a really realistic illusion. That's only scratching the surface of what is possible when you introduce dual-school spells. And not all of those effects can be made just by mashing existing spells together.


Rather than calling two separate spells one thing, make it a Metamagic feat that allows you to doublecast simultaneously. Then I can mix and match whatever I really want.
Invisibility + Silent Image at low levels, Invisibility + Project Image if I've got the spell slots for it.
Or Solid Fog + Fireball = Incendiary Cloud
But those aren't the same. (Though Invisibility + Project Image is actually a really cool idea for a Greater Mislead, thanks!) You can't really the same effects just by casting both spells simultaneously. If you literally combined Solid Fog + Fireball, you'd get a fog that was instantly burned away by the fire damage. Even ignoring that, you wouldn't have a fog that burned slowly over time; you'd get a single burst of damage followed by a generic fog. In core, there is no evocation-only effect that does damage over time in an area like Incendiary Cloud does. You need combination spells to give you options that a naive "smashing spells together" approach can't get you. And isn't that exactly the approach that you didn't like when Dragon Magazine did it?


See, there is a lot of stuff we do agree on: I considered scrapping Abjuration as well, and I would do it even if it messed with consistency, history, or precedent. I decided not to because there are a fair chunk of spells, mostly in the anti-magic or targets-other-spells categories, that just don't really fit in any other school, and yet are two numerous to make them all Universal.

I'd be happy to rename and/or redefine Abjuration if we could come up with some other title that fit and expanded or refocused it as necessary.

With all the other options for spells out there, "All elemental energy and nothing but elemental energy" (being fire, cold, and electric, mainly) seems like a fairly well-rounded definition to me. I was originally going to include [Force] spells as well, with some of the shielding-type ones (Mage Armor, Resilient Sphere) DS'd into Abjuration. But now I'm thinking that if we tweak the Abjuration school to include but not be limited to defensive effects, I could dump all of them in there instead. Everything from Magic Missile and Bigby's whatever Hand to Tenser's Floating Disk.
After all, I defined Illusion as being Light and Sound, which are certainly "real", even if they aren't solid. The names don't matter as much to me so long as the definition and spells associated with it hold up.

In my experience, Abjuration has always been kind of an odd-duck anyway, lagging almost as badly as Evocation, so it could certainly use a little help.
I think making it the "manipulating magic" school has worked reasonably well in my system. If Abjuration was going to be rewritten, most of the other schools would probably have to be changed too. And that's a whole new headache that I'm not ready for.


Fair enough. Still, if the base spell just improved all natural weapons or wielded weapons for a certain time period, it wouldn't strike me as OP, since the same effect could be achieved by just using multiple casts of the non-greater version. Basically, all I see it doing is simplifying things, so that I turn 4 spells into 1. Or 4 spells into 2, if I just had a Mass Magic Weapon or something.
That way, even if you still think my system is more limited, spells that need it would wind up more flexible.
I don't see Greater and Lesser versions of existing spells, or mildly different versions of existing spells, as being a problem. Actually, I really like using Greater and Lesser versions precisely because they provide new spell effects without being overly complex. The thing that makes magic so darn complicated is just that there is a huge variety of potential effects. I see it as more important to simplify or remove especially strange and unique effects (as you can see from my lists of removed spells).


....Actually, when I say it like that I'm starting to think that "Mass" should just be a metamagic effect also. Then you can have a Sleep (just for example) spell that targets one creature, and you need to Metamagic it to hit the whole battlefield. And if you want to avoid your own allies, Mass+Sculpt it.
Lets add Metamagic to the list of things that needs some work, though probably not in this thread.
Considered that too, but the thing is that you don't want every spell to have the same cost increase when you go to a Mass version. Just making it a metamagic effect doesn't properly take that into account.

Actually, you might be interested in an idea I had a while ago and chose not to pursue on the grounds that it was too different from the core D&D feel. Basically, most spells have augments that you can apply, like psionic powers do. Thus, you could have one Magic Weapon spell, and it would have "Augment +3: Affects one object/level, no two of which are more than 30 ft. apart. All targets must be within Medium (100 ft.) range.". Fog Cloud would have "Evocation augment +6: Creatures in the fog take 4d6 damage/round." And so on. In other words, each spell would have built-in "metamagic" that you could apply. This would accomplish your goal of simplicity while still allowing different spells to have different cost increases when you go to Mass.

I decided not to adopt this mechanic for my system, but it seems like something you would enjoy, with some tweaking.


Edit: Just out of curiosity, where did you put the Contingency spell? I didn't see it on your list and its something I would probably move to Abjuration, just as an example.
It would definitely be Abjuration if I kept it as a spell. However, I made it a wizard class feature.


This thread is fascinating reading. Has anyone done (or found) any work on new spells for the new Subschools?
Glad you enjoy it! I made a few new spells which can be seen in my list above - particularly for Necromancy (Life) - but this is a field which is ripe for new development. Right now, I'm focusing on completing my universal spell rewrite; hopefully, I'll have that done within a few days. When that goes up, it will include my new spells.

[Deepbluediver]

I think that having two different types of dual-school spell would be unintuitive, though. If a spell can fit fully within the spectrum of a single school, why make it (your version of) dual-school? (Incidentally, we should use different names for these different concepts. I propose that your definition of dual-school be called "hybrid school", following M:tG terminology.)

Hybrid is a good term, though I would rather reverse it and call spells available to two schools "Dual" and spells requiring two schools "Hybrid".

Dual- of, pertaining to, or noting two; having a twofold, or double, character or nature.
Hybrid- anything derived from heterogeneous sources, or composed of elements of different or incongruous kinds


Oh, I kind of already responded to this above. I think a system with both dual-school and hybrid-school spells would work. But I'm not convinced it is worth the complexity. What, specifically, do you gain by introducing hybrid-school spells? The core concept of a hybrid school spell is that it can the entirety of the spell can be expressed by multiple schools. I think that if this is true, the schools are insufficiently different.

If I could come up with some method to reclassify schools and tweak spells so that I could make do with just one or the other that would make me very happy; I'm not interested in complexity for its own sake. It started out as a possibility because there where spells with interesting effects that I honestly couldn't argue should be entirely in one school or another.

So far though, anything that achieves the first goal is far more complex or less intuitive than just allowing for DS or Hybrid spells.


The true answer is probably because there's a fantasy trope of "fog that impairs your mental abilities", so it was made into a spell. The only way to fit that exact description is to blend Enchantment with Conjuration. Also, my version, Mind Fog actually does impair vision exactly like a Fog Cloud does.

If that's what you want to base your spell-inspiration on, then go for it, but I'm not going to break my system just to accommodate a very specific element of any given story. Especially, like I said, when I think you could get the same effect via other, more flexible means.
Mind Fog is in no way improved by making dispersable via a strong breeze, IMO.

I'd rather lay it out like this:

Mind Fog- single target instantaneous spell
Mass Mind Fog- a metamagic'ed version to affect more than one target
Contingency/Trap Mind Fog (regular or Mass'd)- a magical trap that activates when creatures enter the area.
Trap Mass Mind Fog+Fog Cloud- a trap that dulls senses while at the same time making it easier for creatures to get lost and confused.

I've basically built the same thing you have, I've just done it piecemeal rather than handing it my players ready and assembled for them. The benefit I see in my version is that I can swap out any individual element for better customization.


You can (kind of); just do some spell research. The complicating factor is that assigning spell levels is a very tricky business. Lightfirening Boltball may or may not be 6th level; that's why I don't want to just let them be combined on the fly, or as part of a simple "one size fits all" mechanic
...
But those aren't the same. You can't really the same effects just by casting both spells simultaneously. If you literally combined Solid Fog + Fireball, you'd get a fog that was instantly burned away by the fire damage. Even ignoring that, you wouldn't have a fog that burned slowly over time; you'd get a single burst of damage followed by a generic fog. In core, there is no evocation-only effect that does damage over time in an area like Incendiary Cloud does.

Wall of Fire comes pretty close, and both have a concentration-based component.

Frankly, if there isn't already an evocation spell somewhere that does slow, lingering damage in an AOE, then homebrewing one would be a piece of cake. There's no inherent requirement that you combine fire damage and smoke for this sort of thing; I could make it cold damage+fog (Freezing Fog- CA), or electric damage+entangle (we'll call that one "Giant Jellyfish (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ElectricJellyfish)" :smalltongue:), or acid+Grease.

If you wanted to suggest some combinations to your group then I can't stop you, but pre-fashioning them just sticks out like a sort thumb to me. If you've given the players Mislead, are you going to homebrew Lightfirening Boltball for them as well? Are you going to sit down and work it out for every single combination they request, or would you rather design some framework so that they can do it themselves?


And isn't that exactly the approach that you didn't like when Dragon Magazine did it?

I think the source I sited was Dragon Magic, though it shows up elsewhere, too. And my reply is "not exactly". My complaint was that it was two separate spells, one followed by the other. I.e. "Gain wings like a dragon and fly, then give up your wings to use a one-time Gust of Wind".
By the same token, Mislead is not one singular effect, it's Image+Invisibility.
Clone, by contrast, isn't really useful if you break it into pieces unless you are trying to fake your own death and need a body-double.

And I wouldn't even object to a player doing something like that if they could do it all the time. What upsets me is that it's so arbitrary. I would have no problem with a Doublecast feat that let me combine whatever I wanted, but then it would be up to the player.

If/When I design my theoretical metamagic feat, I would probably put some limitations on it to avoid the most egregious abuses or head-scratching combinations; for example, not allowing it to combine Instantaneous with Duration spells, and prohibiting different targets (so you can't cast Harm on your enemy at the same time you Heal yourself) to start.


Note that I think multiple schools can generate the same effect. For example, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, Necromancy, and Transmutation all have "save or die" spells in my system. However, the way that they accomplish those effects is very different: Conjuration teleports you under the earth (Imprisonment), Enchantment frightens you to death (Phantasmal Killer), Evocation smashes you into a tiny ball (Implosion), Necromancy snuffs out your life force (Finger of Death and others), and Transmutation locks you in a permanent time bubble (Temporal Stasis). However, none of those individual spells could belong fully to any other school like a hybrid spell would, because the cause, or the method, is so totally different.

To be clear, I don't think "Save or Die" is something that should be restricted to any one school. It can fit anywhere that an appropriate spell shows up.
You could also have Divination- show your target a glimpse of the ultimate truth; they make their will save or their brain melts from the knowledge that man was not meant to know. Abjuration- make your reflex save or be caught in an impenetrable force-field that asphyxiates you. Etc etc etc.

I tend to define my spells more by the mechanics or requirements going IN than by the effect coming OUT. For example, I might house-rule that [Fire] spells healed fire-elementals just like positive energy did for humans, but that doesn't mean all [Fire] spells suddenly need to be added to the Healing subschool.
By the same token, attempting to imprison an elemental or construct beneath the earth might not kill it outright; but that doesn't mean it loses it's SoD status in most cases.


But we need to show them the way with examples that demonstrate how interesting combining concepts can be! I haven't had a chance to start designing new spells that blend schools, but there are entire worlds of possibility there. Like a Necromancy/Transmutation spell that assimilates a creature's life force into yourself to make you look like them, a Conjuration/Divination spell that summons exactly what you need, even if you don't know what that is, or an Evocation/Illusion spell that creates a really realistic illusion. That's only scratching the surface of what is possible when you introduce dual-school spells. And not all of those effects can be made just by mashing existing spells together.

I disagree; hence the whole bit about "let players figure it out for themselves". The PHB doesn't include a multiclass build for making the monk viable; why should it do so for magic?

Oh wait, sorry, I forgot; it's because melee can't have nice things. :smalltongue:

For some of your specific suggestions...
Necromancy+Transmutation spell- how is this less complicated that illusions or just a plain Alter Self? Or what about it makes Alter Self not-obsolete?
Evocation+Illusion- so basically just Shadow-evocation then?
Conjuration/Divination- that sounds...kind of OP and hard to actually use. "We are fighting an ancient evil from beyond the veil of time and space! *casts Givemewinbutton* Oh look, a magical gem that will instantly seal away the evil for another thousand years! That was easy!"
Plus, it still feels a lot like Augury+a couple Bags of Holding worth of items.

I think magic should be an enhancer, not a replacement for every single other aspect of the game.


I think making it the "manipulating magic" school has worked reasonably well in my system. If Abjuration was going to be rewritten, most of the other schools would probably have to be changed too. And that's a whole new headache that I'm not ready for.

So you wouldn't have a problem with my dumping Magic Missile into Abjuration? There are already damage-dealing Abjuration spells in the RAW (Complete Arcane- Reciprocal Gyre), so I've got precedent. I just need to say that Abjuration INCLUDES many defensive effects rather than that's all it's composed of.
...Which probably isn't a bad idea anyway, because it helps explain why every spell that can be used defensively doesn't need to show up in Abjuration.


I don't see Greater and Lesser versions of existing spells, or mildly different versions of existing spells, as being a problem. Actually, I really like using Greater and Lesser versions precisely because they provide new spell effects without being overly complex. The thing that makes magic so darn complicated is just that there is a huge variety of potential effects. I see it as more important to simplify or remove especially strange and unique effects (as you can see from my lists of removed spells).

Again, I disagree, but it's a matter of opinion; not something we need to argue over.
I'd rather my Sorcerer gets a scaling Lightning Bolt so he can then take Invisibility and Flight without worrying about his damage output, rather than making him take 3 varieties of Fireball.


Considered that too, but the thing is that you don't want every spell to have the same cost increase when you go to a Mass version. Just making it a metamagic effect doesn't properly take that into account.

I went through the list on the SRD; virtually every spell that has a mass version jumps by 4. There are a few that are only 3 (Reduce/Enlarge Person, Suggestion) and the occasional spell on the druid list that jumps by 5, but even those average out to the same thing. There aren't, as far as I can tell, Mass spells that jump by any other value; seems pretty easy to figure out what WotC thought the appropriate conversion was.

Now, I'll be the first one to admit we wouldn't be having this conversation if the RAW made better sense, but it gives me a fairly solid starting point.


Actually, you might be interested in an idea I had a while ago and chose not to pursue on the grounds that it was too different from the core D&D feel. Basically, most spells have augments that you can apply, like psionic powers do. Thus, you could have one Magic Weapon spell, and it would have "Augment +3: Affects one object/level, no two of which are more than 30 ft. apart. All targets must be within Medium (100 ft.) range.". Fog Cloud would have "Evocation augment +6: Creatures in the fog take 4d6 damage/round." And so on. In other words, each spell would have built-in "metamagic" that you could apply. This would accomplish your goal of simplicity while still allowing different spells to have different cost increases when you go to Mass.

Yes, that's certainly an interesting idea; but I like keeping vancian magic separate from psionics. Both systems have their perks and shortcomings as well as fans and detractors. I'm not in a rush to turn one into the other; I rather like the interplay/conflict you can get between them.

Provided Meta-magic was actually balanced or less abusable, I think I could get 90% of the same effect. Plus, I think it's more flexible in that it allows players to decide how to modify their spells, rather than trying to force a built-in option.


It would definitely be Abjuration if I kept it as a spell. However, I made it a wizard class feature.

Ok, thanks.

[Vadskye]

Hybrid is a good term, though I would rather reverse it and call spells available to two schools "Dual" and spells requiring two schools "Hybrid".

Dual- of, pertaining to, or noting two; having a twofold, or double, character or nature.
Hybrid- anything derived from heterogeneous sources, or composed of elements of different or incongruous kinds
That makes more sense. That's how I'll use the terms from now on, then.


If I went through the entire list, maybe I would find that by reclassifying schools and tweaking spells I could make do with just one or the other. If I don't NEED dual/hybrid schools that would make me very happy; I'm not interested in complexity for its own sake. It started out as a possibility because there where spells with interesting effects that I honestly couldn't argue should be entirely in one school or another.
I can understand that. It is probably true that some of the spells I changed or removed could have originally fit fairly comfortably as dual-school spells. Actually, now that I think about it, that concept could have been used before I changed all of the schools; if you keep the schools as originally defined, internal inconsistencies and all, adding dual-school spells could be a very effective fix. Instead of clarifying the exact nature of Illusion and Transmutation so that they no longer shared space, you could just make Sculpt Sound a dual-school Illusion/Transmutation spell. However, I think the system is better overall if the schools are defined in such a way that they are mutually exclusive - so that an identical spell can't belong to two schools simultaneously in the way you describe.


If that's what you want to base your spell-inspiration on, then go for it, but I'm not going to break my system just to accommodate a very specific element of any given story. Especially, like I said, when I think you could get the same effect via other, more flexible means.
Mind Fog is in no way improved by making dispersable via a strong breeze, IMO.

I'd rather lay it out like this:

Mind Fog- single target instantaneous spell
Mass Mind Fog- a metamagic'ed version to affect more than one target
Contingency/Trap Mind Fog (regular or Mass'd)- a magical trap that activates when creatures enter the area.
Trap Mass Mind Fog+Fog Cloud- a trap that dulls senses while at the same time making it easier for creatures to get lost and confused.

I've basically built the same thing you have, I've just done it piecemeal rather than handing it my players ready and assembled for them. The benefit I see in my version is that I can swap out any individual element for better customization.
This strikes you as being better than just having a proper "Mind Fog" spell? It sounds unnecessarily complex to me.


Wall of Fire comes pretty close, and both have a concentration-based component.
Wall of Fire is fire that burns anyone who touches it. That's pretty standard. Fire Shield protects you from flame and deals retributive damage to anyone who attacks you. The flames are "thin and wispy" and "warm to the touch"; the damage dealt to someone who attacks you is significantly disproportionate to the literal flame effect. It's pretty clearly Abjuration to me. (Also, it doesn't have a concentration component that I see.)


Frankly, if there isn't already an evocation spell somewhere that does slow, lingering damage in an AOE, then homebrewing one would be a piece of cake. There's no inherent requirement that you combine fire damage and smoke for this sort of thing; I could make it cold damage+fog (Freezing Fog- CA), or electric damage+entangle (we'll call that one "Giant Jellyfish (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ElectricJellyfish)" :smalltongue:), or acid+Grease.

If you wanted to suggest some combinations to your group then I can't stop you, but pre-fashioning them just sticks out like a sort thumb to me. If you've given the players Mislead, are you going to homebrew Lightfirening Boltball for them as well? Are you going to sit down and work it out for every single combination they request, or would you rather design some framework so that they can do it themselves?
Yes, I do want direct control of any spell used in my game. If designing spells was easy, it would have been done right in the first place. After working with them for so long, I have come to the conclusion that designing fair spells is really bloody difficult. I do have a rigorous system for assigning levels to spell effects - but it is much more complicated than anything that PCs should have direct access to. If you think you can design a simple, PC-friendly system for combining spells that works, go for it - but I suspect anything that simple could be broken fairly easily.

Incidentally, Kirthfinder uses a system more or less exactly like you are describing for generating spell effects, and allows freely combining existing spell effects to generate new spells. It's definitely worth a look if you are trying to go in that direction; Kirth put a lot of work into it, and it accomplishes its goal well.


I think the source I sited was Dragon Magic, though it shows up elsewhere, too.
Yeah, my bad.


And my reply is "not exactly". My complaint was that it was two separate spells, one followed by the other. I.e. "Gain wings like a dragon and fly, then give up your wings to use a one-time Gust of Wind".
By the same token, Mislead is not one singular effect, it's Image+Invisibility.
Clone, by contrast, isn't really useful if you break it into pieces unless you are trying to fake your own death and need a body-double.
I see "combine two synergistic effects together" as a legitimate use of a spell, and distinct from "cast one spell and then a totally different spell," which is lame. Now, it is fair to say that I wouldn't want to fill up the book with Mislead-type effects. It serves its purpose best as an interesting example to show what is possible and encourage player creativity.


And I wouldn't even object to a player doing something like that if they could do it all the time. What upsets me is that it's so arbitrary. I would have no problem with a Doublecast feat that let me combine whatever I wanted, but then it would be up to the player.

If/When I design my theoretical metamagic feat, I would probably put some limitations on it to avoid the most egregious abuses or head-scratching combinations; for example, not allowing it to combine Instantaneous with Duration spells, and prohibiting different targets (so you can't cast Harm on your enemy at the same time you Heal yourself) to start.
I think you can build a metamagic feat like that and have it be fun. I don't think you can do it and have it be balanced. There will be unfairly weak combinations and unfairly powerful combinations if you don't take a more nuanced approach to determining the final spell level.


To be clear, I don't think "Save or Die" is something that should be restricted to any one school. It can fit anywhere that an appropriate spell shows up.
You could also have Divination- show your target a glimpse of the ultimate truth; they make their will save or their brain melts from the knowledge that man was not meant to know. Abjuration- make your reflex save or be caught in an impenetrable force-field that asphyxiates you. Etc etc etc.

I tend to define my spells more by the mechanics or requirements going IN than by the effect coming OUT. For example, I might house-rule that [Fire] spells healed fire-elementals just like positive energy did for humans, but that doesn't mean all [Fire] spells suddenly need to be added to the Healing subschool.
By the same token, attempting to imprison an elemental or construct beneath the earth might not kill it outright; but that doesn't mean it loses it's SoD status in most cases.
Sounds like we agree on defining schools by cause, then. I just don't see dual-school spells working in a system that defines schools by cause; if two schools can generate the exact same cause, the schools aren't distinct enough.


I disagree; hence the whole bit about "let players figure it out for themselves". The PHB doesn't include a multiclass build for making the monk viable; why should it do so for magic?

Oh wait, sorry, I forgot; it's because melee can't have nice things. :smalltongue:
What, exactly, is the conceptual objection to showing players how to achieve cool effects that they might not have thought of themselves? Is it because of the additional length (maybe a page or two), based on a distaste for "hand-holding" players, or what?


For some of your specific suggestions...
Necromancy+Transmutation spell- how is this less complicated that illusions or just a plain Alter Self? Or what about it makes Alter Self not-obsolete?
It's a totally different spell from what you're describing. What I was describing is essentially Assimilate (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Assimilate). Does that help clarify what I mean?

Evocation+Illusion- so basically just Shadow-evocation then?
Not at all! Imagine a major image that includes [force] effects from Evocation to give it a real physical form. You could make an illusion of a dragon and have it breathe real fire!

Conjuration/Divination- that sounds...kind of OP and hard to actually use. "We are fighting an ancient evil from beyond the veil of time and space! *casts Givemewinbutton* Oh look, a magical gem that will instantly seal away the evil for another thousand years! That was easy!"
Plus, it still feels a lot like Augury+a couple Bags of Holding worth of items.
Yeah, I have no idea how I would write that spell fairly. You could put a gp limit on the item summoned, but it's probably best left alone. How about Conjuration/Divination to "take me where I need to be (within these constraints)"? Anyway, the specific spells aren't really the point. The point is that there are certain fun magical effects that are only possible by combining schools, and that the system should be able to accommodate those spells. Even if they aren't in the PHB, if a player wants to do spell research to create an effect which requires two schools, I don't want to say "that's impossible, try a different effect" without a darn good reason.


So you wouldn't have a problem with my dumping Magic Missile into Abjuration? There are already damage-dealing Abjuration spells in the RAW (Complete Arcane- Reciprocal Gyre), so I've got precedent. I just need to say that Abjuration INCLUDES many defensive effects rather than that's all it's composed of.
...Which probably isn't a bad idea anyway, because it helps explain why every spell that can be used defensively doesn't need to show up in Abjuration.
Meh. I think Magic Missile and the other force effects belong much better in Evocation. Abjuration already has a fairly substantial number of spells associated with it. Also, Abjuration's only damaging effects should be retributive. Reciprocal Gyre can deal damage because it is just backlash from the spells. (Maw of Chaos is harder to explain; that should never have been an Abjuration spell. Also, it is hilariously broken and should never have been printed, but that's a different story. Remember, making spells is hard!)


Again, I disagree, but it's a matter of opinion; not something we need to argue over.
I'd rather my Sorcerer gets a scaling Lightning Bolt so he can then take Invisibility and Flight without worrying about his damage output, rather than making him take 3 varieties of Fireball.
Mostly a matter of opinion, yes. However, if you plan on making every spell auto-scale, you should really lower the number of spells known to compensate. Otherwise, casters will just have every spell they care about. Also, you're going to have a hard time creating high-level spells is you make all of the low-level spells automatically scale like you are talking about.


I went through the list on the SRD; virtually every spell that has a mass version jumps by 4. There are a few that are only 3 (Reduce/Enlarge Person, Suggestion) and the occasional spell on the druid list that jumps by 5, but even those average out to the same thing. There aren't, as far as I can tell, Mass spells that jump by any other value; seems pretty easy to figure out what WotC thought the appropriate conversion was.

Now, I'll be the first one to admit we wouldn't be having this conversation if the RAW made better sense, but it gives me a fairly solid starting point.
I'll buy that every spell specifically labeled Mass follows this sort of progression. But you're forgetting the "pseudo-mass" spells: Confusion, Haste, and all of the other "affects multiple creature" spells that don't have non-mass versions. If we accept that taking a spell from single-target to Mass increases the level by 4, we come to the conclusion that single-target Haste should be a level -1 spell, and single-target Confusion (which, don't forget, lasts for 1 round/level, not 1 round like Lesser Confusion) is a cantrip. Mass Stoneskin, or even more ludicrously, Mass Greater Invisibility, sounds really powerful as an 8th level spell, while Mass False Life sounds pitifully weak as a 6th level spell. (And let's just ignore Mass Polymorph.)

Now, there are a few problems rolled up into one here (Haste is vastly overpowered as a group buff, for one), but you should see my point: You can't just look at the "Mass" spells and call it a day. Mass applies to more than you're giving it credit for.


Yes, that's certainly an interesting idea; but I like keeping vancian magic separate from psionics. Both systems have their perks and shortcomings as well as fans and detractors. I'm not in a rush to turn one into the other; I rather like the interplay/conflict you can get between them.

Provided Meta-magic was actually balanced or less abusable, I think I could get 90% of the same effect. Plus, I think it's more flexible in that it allows players to decide how to modify their spells, rather than trying to force a built-in option.
Yes, but I believe that flexibility will be its undoing.

[Deepbluediver]

However, I think the system is better overall if the schools are defined in such a way that they are mutually exclusive - so that an identical spell can't belong to two schools simultaneously in the way you describe.

In the end, it's going to come down to some matter of personal opinion. Even going by the definitions you chose, I would still rather see Fire Shield in Evocation than in Abjuration. "It's fire and it burns" seems like a simpler and more straightforward explanation than "magic acting weirdly and also involving heat energy in a retributive manner".


This strikes you as being better than just having a proper "Mind Fog" spell? It sounds unnecessarily complex to me.

"Better" is subjective; better in what way? Is it a little more complex involved? Yes, it is.
I also think it's more customizable. I, as a player, can swap out any piece of it (Suggestion or Slow instead of Mind Fog, or Solid Fog/Stinking Cloud for Fog Cloud) without having to run it by my GM first.


Wall of Fire is fire that burns anyone who touches it. That's pretty standard. Fire Shield protects you from flame and deals retributive damage to anyone who attacks you. The flames are "thin and wispy" and "warm to the touch"; the damage dealt to someone who attacks you is significantly disproportionate to the literal flame effect. It's pretty clearly Abjuration to me. (Also, it doesn't have a concentration component that I see.)

I was comparing Wall of Fire to Incendiary Cloud, that's why.


Yes, I do want direct control of any spell used in my game. If designing spells was easy, it would have been done right in the first place. After working with them for so long, I have come to the conclusion that designing fair spells is really bloody difficult. I do have a rigorous system for assigning levels to spell effects - but it is much more complicated than anything that PCs should have direct access to. If you think you can design a simple, PC-friendly system for combining spells that works, go for it - but I suspect anything that simple could be broken fairly easily.
....
I think you can build a metamagic feat like that and have it be fun. I don't think you can do it and have it be balanced. There will be unfairly weak combinations and unfairly powerful combinations if you don't take a more nuanced approach to determining the final spell level.

To be fair, I suspect that Gary Gygax, Einstein, the framers of the Constitution, and Jesus could all sit down to write a game system, and the combined might of the Internet would find ways to "break" it within 72 hours.
A decent system would stand up well to most efforts though; D&D 3.5 doesn't seem to accomplish this. It's got to many traps for newbies and most of the experienced gamers seem to (or at least claim to) be able to spot the Wizard/Druid/Cleric auto-win combos right out of the gate. I would hope that, with help and guidance from the forums, I could come up with something at least marginally better.

Also,all spells of the same level should be of roughly equal power and/or use (theoretically at least). If something is drastically out of place, then it should certainly be re-leveled or tweaked or even entirely revamped. Please try to take this into consideration when exploring my proposal for broken or unbalanced combinations.

So here's the first rough draft (spoiler-ed to save space)
Doublecast [Metamagic]
Benefit: You can combine the effects of two spells into a single action, effectively casting them simultaneously. All normal restrictions for knowing or being able to cast both component spells still apply.

This new spell has an effective level that varies depending on the input of the other spells involved.
Spell #1 v//#2 >|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9


0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10


1|2|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10


2|3|3|3|5|6|7|8|9|10|11


3|4|4|5|5|6|7|8|9|10|11


4|5|5|6|6|6|8|9|10|11|12


5|6|6|7|7|8|8|9|10|11|12


6|7|7|8|8|9|9|9|11|12|13


7|8|8|9|9|9|10|10|11|12|13


8|9|9|10|10|11|11|12|12|12|14


9|10|10|11|11|12|12|13|13|14|14

There are also several other restrictions when creating Doublecast spells.

The two spells cannot have different targets. So, for example, you can combine one spell that targets you or an opponent with one that has a non-targeting effect (Invisibility+Silent Image), but you cannot combine a spell that targets you with one the targets another creature (Heal+Harm).
You cannot combine instantaneous spells with those that have a duration.
For all numerical measurements (range, duration, AOE, number of targets, etc) of the spells, use that from the spell with the lesser value. The only exception is casting-time, in which case the longer spell is dominant.
You can only combine spells that target an area with other AOE spells. For example, you could not combine Earthquake with Scorching Ray, but you could combine Earthquake and Sleet Storm.
The two spells cannot share any of the same descriptors. For example, you cannot combine Scorching Ray and Fireball, because both have the [Fire] descriptor, but you could combine Scorching Ray with Ray of Frost.
You cannot Doublecast Hybrid spells (Dual-school spells are alright though).
The DM has final approval over all combinations, and may choose to further modify the combined effect as they wish. (this should always go without saying, but some people don't seem to get that)


I put what I feel are fairly tight restrictions in there under the assumption that players will not be combining spells randomly, but will avoid those on the weaker side and seek out those that synergize well.


Incidentally, Kirthfinder uses a system more or less exactly like you are describing for generating spell effects, and allows freely combining existing spell effects to generate new spells. It's definitely worth a look if you are trying to go in that direction; Kirth put a lot of work into it, and it accomplishes its goal well.

I'll look into it, thanks. It wouldn't be the first time something I proposed had already been tried.


What, exactly, is the conceptual objection to showing players how to achieve cool effects that they might not have thought of themselves? Is it because of the additional length (maybe a page or two), based on a distaste for "hand-holding" players, or what?

It's partly that, yes; IMO any decently smart player should be able to figure out a combo like Mislead on their own and if they can't then there are still plenty of other options for them to take.

But it feels like you're saying "Here's some lumber and nails and a hammer, and if you want to build anything on your own you need to run the blueprints by me first and I'll get back to you. Oh, but in case you're not getting the picture, I already built a nice two-story cape cod with a porch and painted shutters for you."
In other words, the prebuilt stuff you're supplying is so much easier or better that it would actually discourage me from experimenting on my own.

Finally, combining A+B to make AB is easy; but if you call AB one spell, then how long before some one asks to make an AB+CD sort of combo?

If you want to put all spell-modification or homebrewing in the hands of the DM, then giving the players combo-spells right out of the gate would be necessary. I'm clinging pretty tightly to the 'one spell, one effect" model because I think it's the least easily breakable if I want things to ALSO be open to free-form (i.e. player-run) experimentation.


It's a totally different spell from what you're describing. What I was describing is essentially Assimilate (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Assimilate). Does that help clarify what I mean?

Yes, it does help explain it; seems like you are combining Vampiric Touch with Alter Self. If you really want to get into it, Vampiric Touch is actually Cure Wounds+Inflict Wounds, for the true Inception-madness. :smalltongue:
I'm willing to let it slide because I can describe it as "drain health" rather than needing to use the word "and" anywhere.

Alter-Self is a spell that, IMO, should have a reduced effect or be higher level for what it does, but the only truly unique bit of the combination seems to be that you get a bonus on Disguise checks to appear as that specific person.

Depending on exactly what elements the player wanted to incorporate, I would not object to having an arcane version of that power in the game, and it fits decently in as a Trans/Necro Hybrid. But maybe it doesn't need to be a 9th level spell (or the equivalent). Maybe it deals 1d6 damage per level, and the bonus to checks is +1 per 2d6 damage dealt. Then the spell can be available much earlier on, and it's up to the player to take it whenever they want.


Not at all! Imagine a major image that includes [force] effects from Evocation to give it a real physical form. You could make an illusion of a dragon and have it breathe real fire!

Please don't take offense, because I really am trying to see this from your point of view here; I apologize if my last round of comments was snarky-ier than they should have been...
...so it is with all due respect that I say this seems an awful lot like my step-by-step version of building Mind Fog before, when you called it "unnecessarily complex".

If you want something that looks like a dragon and feels like a dragon and breathes fire like a dragon, then a Summon Monster+some Illusion already exists in game.
If there are no fire-breathing (or whatever characteristic you need) creatures on the Summon Monster spell list, homebrewing a tweak to that is easier, IMO, than working out exactly how a force-powered firebreathing illusion interacts with it's environment or is controlled by the caster.


Yeah, I have no idea how I would write that spell fairly. You could put a gp limit on the item summoned, but it's probably best left alone. How about Conjuration/Divination to "take me where I need to be (within these constraints)"?

I think I've seen something like that done as a class feature before; being able to pull mundane tools and knicknacks out of your pockets at random can be an amusing way of circumventing the "I buy one of every item in the PHB, incumberance be damned" issue. It was more the "whatever tool you need" part that seemed tough. I would rather leave it up to the player to figure that out rather than try to rule on how it should be interpreted for a character.


Anyway, the specific spells aren't really the point. The point is that there are certain fun magical effects that are only possible by combining schools, and that the system should be able to accommodate those spells. Even if they aren't in the PHB, if a player wants to do spell research to create an effect which requires two schools, I don't want to say "that's impossible, try a different effect" without a darn good reason.

If some one was able to come up with something completely new, then yes I would certainly allow homebrew in the game. The only thing I don't like is calling something a single new effect if I can replicate it 99% of the way with two other existing spells.


Meh. I think Magic Missile and the other force effects belong much better in Evocation. Abjuration already has a fairly substantial number of spells associated with it. Also, Abjuration's only damaging effects should be retributive. Reciprocal Gyre can deal damage because it is just backlash from the spells.

How many non-retributive offensive [Force] spells are there?
Would it badly break things if I put all [Force] effects in Abjuration (including Magic Missile) and allowed the offensive ones to also be in Evocation, similarly to how I allow defensive-anti-energy into Abjuration (Resist Energy, etc).

To be clear, I would probably be pulling other things OUT of Abjuration and Evocation to compensate, or swapping them between the two, though I haven't decided exactly what yet (for example, most of the light/sound spells get switched to Illusion, and I think I'd put Explosive Runes in Evocation while Wall of Force into Abjuration)
Should I treat Grasping/Pushing/Crushing Hand spells like [Force] spells?
Maybe I should just go through the Sor/Wiz list and note only the things I'd change, since that's where this would be the most relevant anyway.


Maw of Chaos is harder to explain; that should never have been an Abjuration spell. Also, it is hilariously broken and should never have been printed, but that's a different story.

Where would you have stuck something like that? Evocation?
Going by it's alignment sensing-properties, it seems like it would be easier to explain in your definition of Abjuration than in the RAW's.


Mostly a matter of opinion, yes. However, if you plan on making every spell auto-scale, you should really lower the number of spells known to compensate. Otherwise, casters will just have every spell they care about. Also, you're going to have a hard time creating high-level spells is you make all of the low-level spells automatically scale like you are talking about.

I would lower the number of spells known, if I had to. But ideally, I'd tweak spells to make the OP ones less dominant and the overly-niche-y ones less useless, so that even if the total number goes down the number of desirable spells stays the same or even increases.

And if low-level spells are reasonably effective even at high levels, learning them past the point when you first could have wouldn't be such a waste.


I'll buy that every spell specifically labeled Mass follows this sort of progression. But you're forgetting the "pseudo-mass" spells: Confusion, Haste, and all of the other "affects multiple creature" spells that don't have non-mass versions. If we accept that taking a spell from single-target to Mass increases the level by 4, we come to the conclusion that single-target Haste should be a level -1 spell, and single-target Confusion (which, don't forget, lasts for 1 round/level, not 1 round like Lesser Confusion) is a cantrip. Mass Stoneskin, or even more ludicrously, Mass Greater Invisibility, sounds really powerful as an 8th level spell, while Mass False Life sounds pitifully weak as a 6th level spell. (And let's just ignore Mass Polymorph.)

Now, there are a few problems rolled up into one here (Haste is vastly overpowered as a group buff, for one), but you should see my point: You can't just look at the "Mass" spells and call it a day. Mass applies to more than you're giving it credit for.

Ok, a valid point. But part of this goes back to what I said earlier about releveling spells as necessary. Things like Haste and Confusion and Sleep could easily be single target spells, and might end up lowered as a result.

Also, while I like things that scale, a spell really only needs built-in numerical scaling components if it becomes less useful over time. For something like a single-target damage spell increasing its damage is necessary to keep it relevant. Haste, by contrast, is nearly as good at level 16 as it is at level 6, so if its scaling could be only along a less useful axis (like duration; 20-round haste isn't hugely better than 6 round Haste; both will likely last one and only one encounter).

Other spells should probably scale along a single axis, for example making Burning Hands cover more area since there are other spells for single-target damage; the AOE is the important factor. Things like Area OR Duration OR Targets Affected OR Effect Imparted, but I would definitely want to be cautious with spells that have multiple paths of improvement.

That's part of where I see Metamagic that increases the cost (in spell levels) of casting to be helpful. If Haste is a 2nd or 3rd level Spell, Mass Haste becomes 6th or 7th.
Or you use Empowered Burning Hands if the damage wasn't cutting it.


Yes, but I believe that flexibility will be its undoing.

Given the tricks people are already capable of in RAW, I have a hard time figuring out how anything I might come up with would be MORE game-breaking. But we'll see.


This conversation has been great for making me reconsider ways to tweak or change my existing magic fix. Pretty soon I'll have accumulated enough changes for a full rewrite. :smallwink:

[Vadskye]

In the end, it's going to come down to some matter of personal opinion. Even going by the definitions you chose, I would still rather see Fire Shield in Evocation than in Abjuration. "It's fire and it burns" seems like a simpler and more straightforward explanation than "magic acting weirdly and also involving heat energy in a retributive manner".
I'd advise refluffing it then, and possibly tweak the mechanics. As I described, the description it currently has doesn't match the idea of a pure-Evocation spell. It's not... fiery enough.


"Better" is subjective; better in what way? Is it a little more complex involved? Yes, it is.
I also think it's more customizable. I, as a player, can swap out any piece of it (Suggestion or Slow instead of Mind Fog, or Solid Fog/Stinking Cloud for Fog Cloud) without having to run it by my GM first.
It's substantially more complicated, and it doesn't even have the same effect. The subjects aren't penalized for entering the fog, as with the original Mind Fog, which is a very important part of the fluff of the spell. It's just two spells tacked onto each other. So it's more complicated and it isn't as good at being a fog that clouds the mind.

My point isn't necessarily that the system absolutely needs a "fog that clouds the mind" spell. It's that the system should be able to represent such a spell.


I was comparing Wall of Fire to Incendiary Cloud, that's why.
Ah, that makes more sense.


To be fair, I suspect that Gary Gygax, Einstein, the framers of the Constitution, and Jesus could all sit down to write a game system, and the combined might of the Internet would find ways to "break" it within 72 hours.
:smallbiggrin:

A decent system would stand up well to most efforts though; D&D 3.5 doesn't seem to accomplish this. It's got to many traps for newbies and most of the experienced gamers seem to (or at least claim to) be able to spot the Wizard/Druid/Cleric auto-win combos right out of the gate. I would hope that, with help and guidance from the forums, I could come up with something at least marginally better.
I can't express how much I wish I was done with my total spell overhaul so we could use that as a frame of reference. Hopefully by this weekend I will be done - I'm down to the Rs now, and the math is already done. Yes, I think it is possible! It's just really really hard.


Also,all spells of the same level should be of roughly equal power and/or use (theoretically at least). If something is drastically out of place, then it should certainly be re-leveled or tweaked or even entirely revamped. Please try to take this into consideration when exploring my proposal for broken or unbalanced combinations.
"Breaking" a spell combination system by merely pointing out that it allows the use of spells which were already overpowered isn't really fair, I agree. I'll focus on examples which illustrate that the system is broken even if all spells involved are relatively fair.


So here's the first rough draft (spoiler-ed to save space)
Doublecast [Metamagic]
Benefit: You can combine the effects of two spells into a single action, effectively casting them simultaneously. All normal restrictions for knowing or being able to cast both component spells still apply.

This new spell has an effective level that varies depending on the input of the other spells involved.
Spell #1 v//#2 >|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9


0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10


1|2|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10


2|3|3|3|5|6|7|8|9|10|11


3|4|4|5|5|6|7|8|9|10|11


4|5|5|6|6|6|8|9|10|11|12


5|6|6|7|7|8|8|9|10|11|12


6|7|7|8|8|9|9|9|11|12|13


7|8|8|9|9|9|10|10|11|12|13


8|9|9|10|10|11|11|12|12|12|14


9|10|10|11|11|12|12|13|13|14|14

There are also several other restrictions when creating Doublecast spells.

The two spells cannot have different targets. So, for example, you can combine one spell that targets you or an opponent with one that has a non-targeting effect (Invisibility+Silent Image), but you cannot combine a spell that targets you with one the targets another creature (Heal+Harm).
You cannot combine instantaneous spells with those that have a duration.
For all numerical measurements (range, duration, AOE, number of targets, etc) of the spells, use that from the spell with the lesser value. The only exception is casting-time, in which case the longer spell is dominant.
You can only combine spells that target an area with other AOE spells. For example, you could not combine Earthquake with Scorching Ray, but you could combine Earthquake and Sleet Storm.
The two spells cannot share any of the same descriptors. For example, you cannot combine Scorching Ray and Fireball, because both have the [Fire] descriptor, but you could combine Scorching Ray with Ray of Frost.
You cannot Doublecast Hybrid spells (Dual-school spells are alright though).
The DM has final approval over all combinations, and may choose to further modify the combined effect as they wish. (this should always go without saying, but some people don't seem to get that)


I put what I feel are fairly tight restrictions in there under the assumption that players will not be combining spells randomly, but will avoid those on the weaker side and seek out those that synergize well.
Empowered Shocking Grasp is a 3rd level spell that does 7.5d6=26 damage at 5th level. In contrast, Doublecast Shocking Grasp + Scorching Ray is a 3rd level spell that does 9d6 = 31 damage at 5th level. Doublecast is clearly superior. Do you think Empower is too weak? (Also, does the bonus to attack rolls from Shocking Grasp apply to the the touch attack for touch-range Scorching Ray? Are they the same touch attack?)
Sleet Storm is basically just Fog Cloud + Grease. However, it is vastly superior to a Doublecast Fog Cloud + Grease. Is Sleet Storm too powerful, or is Doublecast too weak?
What exactly is the range and area of effect of Lightning Bolt + Fireball, since we discussed that above? Is a 120 ft. line more or less than a 20 ft. radius? In any event, such a spell would do 20d6 damage as a 5th level spell in an area of effect. That's a massive amount of damage.
In many situations, Doublecast obliterates Quicken for efficiency. Ambushed? No problem - just cast Mirror Image and Levitate as a single action for a single 3rd level slot! Then next round, you can whip out a Glitterdust and a Web - again, as a single 3rd level spell slot. This is a massive power boost. (Plus, at high levels, you can do that and Quicken at the same time!) Note that this is true even if spell levels were perfectly balanced: you're still getting way more bang for your buck by Doublecasting.


I'll look into it, thanks. It wouldn't be the first time something I proposed had already been tried.
An old version is at this website ("https://sites.google.com/site/triomegazero/kirthfinder), but it hasn't been updated in years. I have a copy of the most recent PDF, though the spell creation section hasn't changed much - I can email it to you if you want.


It's partly that, yes; IMO any decently smart player should be able to figure out a combo like Mislead on their own and if they can't then there are still plenty of other options for them to take.

But it feels like you're saying "Here's some lumber and nails and a hammer, and if you want to build anything on your own you need to run the blueprints by me first and I'll get back to you. Oh, but in case you're not getting the picture, I already built a nice two-story cape cod with a porch and painted shutters for you."
In other words, the prebuilt stuff you're supplying is so much easier or better that it would actually discourage me from experimenting on my own.
So your objection is that prebuilt combination spells are too easy and good? :smallconfused: I don't actually disagree with that analogy; the only thing I'd change is that I'm saying "To show you how easy it is, look! I built that nice two-story cod with a porch over there. You'll be fine as long as you show me the blueprints so I can help." In my experience, players appreciate guidance. And if a player feels fed up with the hand-holding, I can just give them the Excel spreadsheet I use to calculate spell levels and tell them to have fun. I suspect most people won't take me up on that offer. :smalltongue: (Of course, I'd still need to look at the final result. My system provides fair levels for well-designed spells; it can be manipulated with a poorly designed spell.)


Finally, combining A+B to make AB is easy; but if you call AB one spell, then how long before some one asks to make an AB+CD sort of combo?
Honestly, I've never had that issue; most combination spells are so specific that people don't really want to combine them. Also, I would set a hard limit of two schools and probably two subschools, justifiable with a "you can only make magic so complicated before it explodes in your face".


If you want to put all spell-modification or homebrewing in the hands of the DM, then giving the players combo-spells right out of the gate would be necessary. I'm clinging pretty tightly to the 'one spell, one effect" model because I think it's the least easily breakable if I want things to ALSO be open to free-form (i.e. player-run) experimentation.
I definitely want spell modification and homebrewing to be strictly controlled by the DM. Spells are particularly problematic if they are broken, since they are an inherent part of the character; a player can lose or use up the magic in an overpowered item, but there is no in-game justification for taking away an overpowered spell. Spells are scary.


Yes, it does help explain it; seems like you are combining Vampiric Touch with Alter Self. If you really want to get into it, Vampiric Touch is actually Cure Wounds+Inflict Wounds, for the true Inception-madness. :smalltongue:
I'm willing to let it slide because I can describe it as "drain health" rather than needing to use the word "and" anywhere.

Alter-Self is a spell that, IMO, should have a reduced effect or be higher level for what it does, but the only truly unique bit of the combination seems to be that you get a bonus on Disguise checks to appear as that specific person.

Depending on exactly what elements the player wanted to incorporate, I would not object to having an arcane version of that power in the game, and it fits decently in as a Trans/Necro Hybrid. But maybe it doesn't need to be a 9th level spell (or the equivalent). Maybe it deals 1d6 damage per level, and the bonus to checks is +1 per 2d6 damage dealt. Then the spell can be available much earlier on, and it's up to the player to take it whenever they want.
Well, it also drains their life force (+4 to all ability scores) and knowledge (the power known). So it's more than just Vampiric Touch + Alter Self. (And yes, Alter Self should definitely take a nerf bat to the face.)


Please don't take offense, because I really am trying to see this from your point of view here; I apologize if my last round of comments was snarky-ier than they should have been...
I never take offense! Sometimes I think people are stupid, but that isn't currently the case. :smallsmile:

...so it is with all due respect that I say this seems an awful lot like my step-by-step version of building Mind Fog before, when you called it "unnecessarily complex".

If you want something that looks like a dragon and feels like a dragon and breathes fire like a dragon, then a Summon Monster+some Illusion already exists in game.
If there are no fire-breathing (or whatever characteristic you need) creatures on the Summon Monster spell list, homebrewing a tweak to that is easier, IMO, than working out exactly how a force-powered firebreathing illusion interacts with it's environment or is controlled by the caster.
It has the potential to be very complex, depending on how the spell is worded and implemented. That's because I was just describing a spell concept, not a specific spell that I would want in my game - a concept that, actually, a variety of individual spells could be built from. An individual spell doesn't have to be complicated at all. Imagine the following spell:

Forceful Image
Evocation/Illusion (Control, Figment) [Force, Unreal]
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
This spell functions like silent image, except that sound, smell, thermal, and physical sensations are included in the spell effect. A creature interacting with the illusion encounters a physical barrier made of magical force, as appropriate to the illusion's form. Any damage dealt to the barrier shatters it, and it can support up to 2,000 lb. of weight before breaking.

Or this:
Draconic Image
Evocation/Illusion (Energy, Figment)
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
This spell functions like major image, except that it can only create the illusion of a dragon. Once during the spell's duration, you can have the dragon use a breath attack. This breath attack originates from the dragon's head and affects a 30 foot cone. Creatures in the area take 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6). The damage can be cold, fire, or electricity damage, as you choose. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. This damage is real and cannot be disbelieved.

I don't think these spells are not that complicated to use. They also look like a lot of fun to me. (Imagine your opponents' surprise when they disbelieve your dragon - only to be hit by the real breath attack!) These may not be totally polished, given that I just made them up, but I think they demonstrate the immense potential of hybrid-school spells.


I think I've seen something like that done as a class feature before; being able to pull mundane tools and knicknacks out of your pockets at random can be an amusing way of circumventing the "I buy one of every item in the PHB, incumberance be damned" issue. It was more the "whatever tool you need" part that seemed tough. I would rather leave it up to the [U]player to figure that out rather than try to rule on how it should be interpreted for a character.
Makes sense to me.


If some one was able to come up with something completely new, then yes I would certainly allow homebrew in the game. The only thing I don't like is calling something a single new effect if I can replicate it 99% of the way with two other existing spells.
I get that, I really do. I just think you dramatically overestimate the degree to which you can actually create new effects properly just by smashing two existing spells together.


How many non-retributive offensive [Force] spells are there?
Would it badly break things if I put all [Force] effects in Abjuration (including Magic Missile) and allowed the offensive ones to also be in Evocation, similarly to how I allow defensive-anti-energy into Abjuration (Resist Energy, etc).
Depends what you mean by "break". It's not a huge balance concern, though I think it will leave Evocation very spell-starved; school placement rarely is. But I really don't think it makes much sense.


To be clear, I would probably be pulling other things OUT of Abjuration and Evocation to compensate, or swapping them between the two, though I haven't decided exactly what yet (for example, most of the light/sound spells get switched to Illusion, and I think I'd put Explosive Runes in Evocation while Wall of Force into Abjuration)
Should I treat Grasping/Pushing/Crushing Hand spells like [Force] spells?
Maybe I should just go through the Sor/Wiz list and note only the things I'd change, since that's where this would be the most relevant anyway.
I think this is something you have to figure out. I like the way I have the schools and subschools distributed. If you come up with a fully new distribution, and I'll take a look, naturally.


Where would you have stuck something like that? Evocation?
Going by it's alignment sensing-properties, it seems like it would be easier to explain in your definition of Abjuration than in the RAW's.
Definitely Evocation (Channeling), just like the Holy Word line of spells and the Holy Smite line of spells. Being alignment-sensitive isn't strictly school-specific in my view. But Abjuration and Evocation do it for different reasons. Abjuration gets alignment-senstive spells for the same reason that it gets type-sensitive spells like Dismissal and Antilife Shell: Abjuration is sensitive to the subtle magical effects that alignments and other distinctions have, and it can prohibit or interfere with alignments on that basis. Evocation gets alignment-sensitive spells because it is channeling divine energy, and divine energy is selective about its targets. Different cause, similar mechanics - but the mechanics are distinct, and you can't treat them as being interchangeable.


I would lower the number of spells known, if I had to. But ideally, I'd tweak spells to make the OP ones less dominant and the overly-niche-y ones less useless, so that even if the total number goes down the number of desirable spells stays the same or even increases.

And if low-level spells are reasonably effective even at high levels, learning them past the point when you first could have wouldn't be such a waste.
Just so long as different characters are very distinct from each other.


Ok, a valid point. But part of this goes back to what I said earlier about releveling spells as necessary. Things like Haste and Confusion and Sleep could easily be single target spells, and might end up lowered as a result.

Also, while I like things that scale, a spell really only needs built-in numerical scaling components if it becomes less useful over time. For something like a single-target damage spell increasing its damage is necessary to keep it relevant. Haste, by contrast, is nearly as good at level 16 as it is at level 6, so if its scaling could be only along a less useful axis (like duration; 20-round haste isn't hugely better than 6 round Haste; both will likely last one and only one encounter).
Agreed. That's why I apply inherent scaling to most buffs (like Mage Armor and Protection from <Aligment>) but don't apply it to penalties; penalties are untyped and always stack, but bonuses don't.


Other spells should probably scale along a single axis, for example making Burning Hands cover more area since there are other spells for single-target damage; the AOE is the important factor. Things like Area OR Duration OR Targets Affected OR Effect Imparted, but I would definitely want to be cautious with spells that have multiple paths of improvement.

That's part of where I see Metamagic that increases the cost (in spell levels) of casting to be helpful. If Haste is a 2nd or 3rd level Spell, Mass Haste becomes 6th or 7th.
Or you use Empowered Burning Hands if the damage wasn't cutting it.
I like where you're going. I think you need to go deeper, though. Does Empower really need to exist? Should it exist? I think it is actually bad for the game.


Given the tricks people are already capable of in RAW, I have a hard time figuring out how anything I might come up with would be MORE game-breaking. But we'll see.
Low standards to clear. :smalltongue:


This conversation has been great for making me reconsider ways to tweak or change my existing magic fix. Pretty soon I'll have accumulated enough changes for a full rewrite. :smallwink:
Glad it helps!

[ideasmith]

Edit: I have now revised my Transmutations subschools, see original post.
2nd Edit: Yes, I do mean is binary; Thank you, Vadskye .


The mechanical and fluff differences boil down to one set being 'channeling the energy through your own body before pouring it into someone directly' and 'just trying to pour enough of it through someone else at range to kill them outright (which also limits which rez spells work)'. In the end they're both trying to kill someone with too much negative energy, and I don't think they'd make a less coherent subschool if rolled together. Though I suppose the 'it's all negative energy' assumption/fluff has some weird fluff issues with harm healing undead but [Death] effects not...

On reconsideration, I'm thinking that the negative energy issue is a red herring, that the mortality spells can be seen as snuffing out life force as easily as bypassing it, that the inflict schools are 'padding' the life subschools spell count, and that several of the mortality spells inflict hit point damage on a successful saving throw.



I'm just jumping on the bandwagon and adding my 2 cp. As I said, I think that it's easier to get a comprehensive and logical fix if you are willing to rearrange what schools some spells fit it, and try to be as inclusive with definitions as possible.

I find this statement extremely vague. (Though if I were to take "as inclusive with definitions as possible" literally, I would conclude that you wanted every subschool to include every spell in the book.)


Yes, I will do that. I was just trying to use the same names as had been mentioned in this thread so I didn't need to relist all the included spells.

Using the names as placeholders is fair enough.


I guess you might disagree, but I say "no". I see "reality" as being binary; some either is real or it isn't. You can't be "partially real" any more than you can be "partially dead". Something can be insubstantial, or composed only of light, but that doesn't make it "not real", that just means its physical properties are different, the same way that water or air aren't "not real" just because they're "not solid". (I used some double negatives in there, sorry, it was hard to articulate what I meant)

Whether reality is binary in the real world is irrelevant to both the definition of 'partially real illusions' and the shadow subschool (and way outside the scope of this thread).

That reality is not binary in the 3.5 core rules is, while not relevant to the definition of 'partially real illusions', somewhat relevant to whether the shadow subschool should included in a given set of homebrew rules. Since 3.5 core is what is being modified, 'reality' is only binary if the rules are so modified.

Whether reality is binary in a given set of homebrew rules is, while still not relevant to the definition of 'partially real illusions', extremely relevant to whether the shadow subschool should be in that homebrew. If reality is binary, the shadow subschool should not exist. Period. (Some of the spells might be salvageable, shadow walk being the strongest contender.)

(Making life binary in a homebrew has similar effects on undead.)


I don't see Shadow Evocation/Conjuration as being "part real", I just see them as weaker versions of regular evocations and conjurations.

So you 'see' some spells that probably shouldn't even be in your homebrew in a manner utterly inconsistent with the rules. Changing the spells to fit that image would move them out of the Illusion school anyway. Possibly also bump them a level or two.


If you wanted to have some Illusion spells that made you think things where real (like heat or pain) I could maybe understand that depending on how they where fluffed, but I would want them to deal non-lethal (i.e. not-real) damage instead.

Most illusions make creatures think things are real.


The way magic was originally set up in D&D made it hard to play use illusions, but I don't think that giving the school non-illusion spells is the way to fix that.

Since I don't know what problems you are claiming the spells don't fix, I do not know whether it fixes them. Or whether I would care if I did know.


I see it as a problem in the same vein with giving evocation-style spells to every other school, and thereby eviscerating Evocation's effectiveness.

Also, casters already tend to be at least one order of magnitude more versatile than melee classes, so I find spells that let you emulate multiple other spells to be particularly distasteful. But maybe that's just me.

Project image isn't notably impingeing or versatile. (Shadow walk and simalcrum aren't notably versatile either, and changing them to fit binary reality would involve changing the schools to what they formerly impinged on.)



It is not strictly necessary (I retained the Scrying subschool, after all), but it strikes me as poor design to have wildly varying numbers without a good reason. It restricts the degree to which you can later attach mechanics to subschools. For example, I plan on creating "mage's robes" magic items which grant bonuses to specific subschools. It is okay if some subschools are exceptionally weak; that just means that those robes are rare. But I would rather avoid having massive subschools that comprise 50% or more of the school in question.

This is why I split up the Compulsions subschool, despite my reluctance to change existing subschools. While I do not intend write actual rules that interact with my subschools, I do intend for them to be usable for such rules.


Illusions have always had the ability to be "real" in a non-trivial sense. Invisibility has no save to disbelieve,

While the description to invisibilty does not explicitly state that studying the target carefully or interacting with it reveals it to be invisible, that seems a natural consequence of what it does say.


and the pattern spells explicitly create light.

Unless you count color spray, which explicitly creates an "image that others can see".


It has just been poorly defined and inconsistent. Likewise, True Seeing always had the ability to see through "real" effects, given that it could see through magical darkness when magical darkness was an Evocation effect. I think that's fine; True Seeing is about something different than just "ignoring unreal effects".

This is true.


Given the massive number of things being discussed, this is totally reasonable.


Actually, I can do that for the remaining schools. It's good for me to keep track of how much I'm changing anyway, and it's work that would be much easier for me than for you


Makes perfect sense. That honestly probably fits the original designers' vision better.

Thank you.


Honestly, I hated putting them in Alteration, but in my mind they fit in Polymorph even worse: you aren't actually changing the creature's form in any way, and that's the core definition of Polymorph. After further consideration, I realized that the problem is simply that they don't belong in Transmutation at all; they are textbook Conjuration spells that just move creatures to a different plane. In the absence of changing schools, I still prefer them in Alteration; it feels more like you are altering a property, which is Alteration, rather than changing a living form, which is Polymorph. This is really hair-splitting, though; I can see why you would put it in Polymorph.

I get the feeling you'll be moving them to Teleportation and I'll be moving them to Manipulation.


This is reasonable, but it feels strange to me to call Liveoak a "Polymorph" spell. This is part of why I decided to being back the Animation subschool; I am much more comfortable calling Liveoak an Animation spell than a Polymorph spell. Changestaff would be dual-subschool Alteration/Animation, since it first changes the staff into a treant (Alteration) and then animates it (Animation). Flesh to Stone / Transmute Flesh and Stone are tricky, but I think they fit as Alteration/Polymorph. Polymorph Any Object is a crazy spell, and I'm happy to just wave a Alteration/Polymorph label at it and hope it never gets cast.

You have enough animation spells from other schools to make that work. I'm thinking in terms of separating out a 'plants' subschool, which might include Animate Plants, Barkskin, Changestaff, Command Plants, Control Plants, Diminish Plants, Entangle, Goodberry, Ironwood, Liveoak, Plant Growth, Repel Wood, Shillelagh, Snare, Spellstaff, Spike Growth, Transmute Metal to Wood, Tree Shape, Warp Wood, or Wood Shape.


Thanks. :smallsmile:

You are welcome.


Are you sure? Look at the material component; it requires "wood shaped into the form of the intended ironwood object". That indicates to me that it turns normal wood into ironwood.

The implied size of negligible-cost material components could be reasoned around. However, at the end of the spell duration, any material component is gone. If the wooden object was imbued, wouldn't it return to normal instead?


Indeed. Like I said above, I would be happy to make the list for this (including renamed spells) so things like this are easier to parse when you're going through.

Thank you, that's very helpful. I'll still be double-checking - it's amazing what a second pair of eyes can spot.


Actually, if Charm is a descriptor, it shouldn't break any of the old effects which referenced "charm effects". 99% backwards compatible.

I'm not sure about 99%, but well within the tolerance I've seen from your other houserules.


Agreed. However, it will need to happen; in the intervening time, I have made a couple more changes, particularly to Illusion (I think I figured it out!). I believe it would be more confusing for you to go over an old version of my changes and then have me talk about my new changes in my responses, so I'll get to work on updating my list. I might be able to keep the whole original list in a spoiler for clarity.

True. My own change log is already rather long.


am always amused when miscommunication yields better results. :smalltongue: It happened when you were looking at my original short descriptions, too - you took my description of a subschool and went in a different direction than I had imagined, but I ended up liking it better.

I should clarify that I'll be mostly changing the description rather than the list. Well, probably, anyway, and it looks like foresight will be in my version of Awareness.


Seeing your response made my day. I love finding people who like working on such a detailed level to build the system up better!

Your responses have been making my day. You've been very consistently giving me ideas for improving my subschools.


NECROMANCY
Some major reshuffling here. Mortality is no longer a separate school; I felt that the fluff holding it together was just "the same as other subschools, but stronger", which isn't a good basis. Its spells were merged into other schools as appropriate.

What was your basis for deciding which Mortality spells went where?


A new subschool, Vitalism, was added; it contains every effect which manipulates positive and negative energy.

Which would also include bless water, consecrate, curse water, desecrate, and ghoul touch. The way core assigns positive/negative energy to spells seems 'off' to me. Cool name, though.


Life was expanded to include any spell which affects a creature's life force without directly affecting its body (treating "hit points" as being distinct from "affecting the body"). A number of these are new spells, but it should stand on its own without those additions.

I was treating 'life force' as something bypassed by mortality spells.


Flesh is largely the same; it also acquired the healing spells that don't channel positive energy, such as remove blindness/deafness, but you can leave those out without damaging its integrity.

Does reversing energy drain really really fit this subschool?


Spells which affect undead were merged into Vitalism for two reasons: first, undead are powered by negative energy; second, both Undeath and Vitalism were small schools that would benefit from being merged.

Fair enough. I won't be doing this; I'm reluctant to use positive/negative energy as a subschool basis, and my revised Life Force subschool is large enough already.


Spirit was renamed to Soul, but that doesn't matter too much. Spirit has some major school-shuffling.

If I was doing serious school-shuffling, I would likely put astral projection as Conjuration/Teleport, and Speak with Dead as Divination.


Flesh: A flesh spell affects the home of a creature's life energy: its body. Many flesh spells inflict physical disabilities.
Assimilate (+), Blindness/Deafness, Contagion, Delay Poison, Destruction, Ghoul Touch, Neutralize Poison, Power Word Blind, Ray of Clumsiness, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Disease, Restoration (Lesser/Greater), Symbol of Pain, Symbol of Weakness, Touch of Fatigue, Waves of Exhaustion, Waves of Fatigue

Life: A life spell manipulates the subject's life force directly.
Crush Life (Greater, Mass), Death Knell, Death Ward (Mass) (+), False Life, Finger of Death, Link Vitality (Mass), Power Word Kill, Share Pain (Forced) (+), Shield Other (Greater) (+), Slay Living, Spectral Hand, Transfer Suffering(Lesser/Mass), Symbol of Death, Vampiric Touch, Wail of the Banshee

Soul: A soul spell manipulates the subject's soul, either restoring it to its proper place or fragmenting it for terrible purposes.
Animate Dead (+), Astral Projection, Clone (+), Create Greater Undead (+), Create Undead (+), Reincarnate (+), Resurrection, Revivify, Soul Bind, Speak with Dead, Trap the Soul, True Resurrection

Vitalism: An vitalism spell channels positive or negative energy. This can be used to enhance or destroy a subject's life energy, or to manipulate creatures powered by negative energy.
Animate Dead (+), Chill Touch, Circle of Death, Command Undead, Control Undead, Create Greater Undead (+), Create Undead (+), Cure X Wounds (Mass), Disrupt Undead, Disrupting Weapon (+), Energy Drain, Enervation, Harm, Heal (Mass), Heal Mount, Inflict X wounds (Mass), Regenerate, Undeath to Death

Dealt with above but left in place for convenience.


No subschool:
Bestow Curse, Mark of Justice

This looks like the beginning of a Curses subschool, especially if remove curse belongs here as I suspect it does.


Spells added from other schools: Death Ward (Mass) (+), Delay Poison, Cure X Wounds (Mass), Disrupting Weapon (+), Inflict X Wounds (Mass), Harm, Heal (Mass), Neutralize Poison, Power Word Kill, Raise Dead, Regenerate, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Disease, Remove Paralysis, Restoration (Lesser/Greater), Resurrection, Trap the Soul, True Resurrection


Spells moved to other schools: Cause Fear, Fear, Gentle Repose, Symbol of Fear

Does curse water belong here or with the other curse spells?


New spells: Assimilate (+), Crush Life (Greater/Mass), Link Vitality (Mass), Ray of Clumsiness, Share Pain (Forced) (+), Shield Other (Greater only) (+), Transfer Suffering (Lesser/Mass), Revivify


Removed spells: Blight, Disrupt Undead, Doom, Eyebite, Halt Undead, Horrid Wilting, Magic Jar, Scare[/spoiler]

Also deathwatch?


TRANSMUTATION
This bloody school took me hours by itself. Mobility is gone; it was an effect-based distinction, and I didn't like that the same spell would switch subschools just for giving a bonus to Jump checks instead of a bonus to, say, Strength checks. That felt wrong. The Polymorph school stayed mostly intact. Artifice was split into Alteration, Augment, and Imbuement, depending on the way the spell worked. Imbuement was split into Augment and Imbuement to limit how massive it would be. Manipulation mostly merged into Alteration and Imbuement, with the remaining effects (like reverse gravity) moved to other schools, primarily Evocation (Control). You will need a Manipulation subschool, but it should be much smaller than the old one; Alteration and Imbuement do a better job of maintaining a consistent feel. Finally, the Time subschool was added. Not many spells in it, but time manipulation feels fairly different from anything else Transmutation tends to do, so I felt that it belonged as a unique school - just like Divination (Scrying) is a unique school despite its small size.

Update: Animation was re-added to help deal with somewhat ambiguous spells like Changestaff and Liveoak. I'm still trying to decide whether I like it better with Animation or without.


Animation: An animation spell grants temporary "life" to an affected object.
Animate Objects, Animate Plants, Animate Rope, Changestaff (+), Entangle, Entangling Growth, Liveoak (+), Shambler (+)

Alteration: An alteration spell changes the physical state of anything with a material form.
Arcane Mark, Blink, Changestaff (+), Clone (+), Disintegrate, Ethereal Jaunt, Etherealness, Erase, Fabricate, Fertility/Infertility, Make Whole, Mending, Move Earth, Passwall, Plant Growth, Polymorph Any Object, Purify Food and Drink, Rusting Grasp, Secret Page, Shape Stone, Shape Wood, Shrink Item, Snare, Soften Earth and Stone, Spike Growth, Spike Stones, Transmute Flesh and Stone, Transmute Mud and Rock, Wall of Stone, Warp Wood

Augment: An augment spell enhances the existing physical or mental abilities of an object or creature.
Barkskin, Combat Transformation, Divine Favor, Divine Power, Expeditious Retreat, Glibness (+), Jump, Longstrider, Ironwood, Magic Fang (Greater), Magic Vestment, Magic Weapon (Greater), Righteous Might (+), Shillelagh, Stoneskin, Totemic Power (Greater, Mass), Totemic Mind (Greater, Mass)

Imbuement: An imbuement spell infuses an object or creature with magic, granting it new abilities.
Air Walk, Align Weapon (+), Arcane Lock (+), Backbiter, Bless Water (+), Bless Weapon (+), Disrupting Weapon (+), Feather Fall, Fire Seeds (+), Fly, Freedom (Mass), Overland Flight, Phantom Steed(+), Rope Trick (+), Spellstaff, Spider Climb, Telepathic Bond (+), Water Breathing, Water Walk

Polymorph: A polymorph spell changes a creature's body into a new form.
Animal Growth, Assimilate (+), Baleful Polymorph, Enlarge Person (Mass), Gaseous Form, Giant Vermin, Implosion, Iron Body, Meld into Stone, Oak Body, Reduce Person (Mass), Reincarnate (+), Righteous Might (+), Shadow Body (+), Statue, Tree Shape, Wind Walk

Time: A time spell manipulates time itself, speeding or slowing its passage for the subject.
Gentle Repose, Haste, Slow, Temporal Stasis, Time Stop

Spells added from other schools: Arcane Lock (+), Arcane Mark, Divine Favor, Divine Power, Fire Seeds (+), Freedom, Gentle Repose, Implosion, Phantom Steed (+), Shambler (+), Stoneskin, Telepathic Bond (+)

Spells moved to other schools: Control Water, Control Weather, Heat Metal, Knock, Mage Hand, Message, Open/Close, Pass without Trace, Reverse Gravity, Sculpt Sound, Telekinesis, Whispering Wind

New spells: Assimilate (+), Backbiter, Entangling Growth, Fertility/Infertility (merged from part of Diminish Plants and Plant Growth), Freedom (Mass only), Oak Body, Shadow Body (+), Totemic Power (Greater, Mass) (merged from Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, and Cat's Grace), Totemic Mind (Greater, Mass) (merged from Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, and Owl's Wisdom), Transmute Flesh and Stone (merged from Flesh to Stone and Stone to Flesh)

Removed spells: Alter Self, Animal Shapes, Awaken, Bear's Endurance (Mass), Bull's Strength (Mass), Cat's Grace (Mass), Chill Metal, Command Plants, Control Plants, Control Winds, Diminish Plants, Eagle's Splendor (Mass), Flame Arrow, Flesh to Stone, Fox's Cunning (Mass), Goodberry, Keen Edge, Mage's Lucubration, Magic Stone, Mnemonic Enhancer, Owl's Wisdom (Mass), Polymorph, Pyrotechnics, Quench, Reduce Animal, Repel Wood, Shapechange, Stone to Flesh, Transformation, Transmute Metal to Wood, Virtue, Wood Shape

Renamed spells: Combat Transformation (formerly Transformation), Shape Stone (formerly Stone Shape), Shape Wood (formerly Wood Shape)

Looks good on a glance-through; I'll get back to this when I've gone through the other schools.


This thread is fascinating reading. Has anyone done (or found) any work on new spells for the new Subschools?

Since more than half of the existing spells belong in the new subschools, new spells for them is hardly a priority.

I have hopes that getting the subschools right will make it easy to designate which spells from other sources go in which subschool, with a good chance of different DMs getting the same answers.

[Vadskye]

If reality is not binary, the shadow subschool should not exist. Period.
Do you mean is binary?


While the description to invisibilty does not explicitly state that studying the target carefully or interacting with it reveals it to be invisible, that seems a natural consequence of what it does say.
You are funny, ideasmith.


Unless you count color spray, which explicitly creates an "image that others can see".
Indeed. That's a weird case, since I think the reference to it creating light was accidentally dropped between editions.


I get the feeling you'll be moving them to Teleportation and I'll be moving them to Manipulation.
Yup! (Though I renamed Teleportation to Translocation and made Teleportation a descriptor; it's fairly trivial, but it makes it much more intuitive that a spell like Blink ends up in that subschool.)


You have enough animation spells from other schools to make that work. I'm thinking in terms of separating out a 'plants' subschool, which might include Animate Plants, Barkskin, Changestaff, Command Plants, Control Plants, Diminish Plants, Entangle, Goodberry, Ironwood, Liveoak, Plant Growth, Repel Wood, Shillelagh, Snare, Spellstaff, Spike Growth, Transmute Metal to Wood, Tree Shape, Warp Wood, or Wood Shape.
I can actually see that working quite well. Not sure what to name it - maybe Transmutation (Nature) or Transmutation (Natural)? Transmutation (Plants) just sounds... awkward to me, even if it is accurate.


The implied size of negligible-cost material components could be reasoned around. However, at the end of the spell duration, any material component is gone. If the wooden object was imbued, wouldn't it return to normal instead?
By Fharlanghn, you're right. I feel like the text about being "created from natural wood" and "remaining natural wood in almost every way", combined with the fact that it was Transmutation implies that it was supposed to just transmute existing wood - but as written, it either creates new wood out of thin air that disappears, or it causes a significant amount of ordinary wood to spontaneously cease to exist after a period of time. Given that it is speficically listed as an "Effect", you're right that it would create new temporary wood from nothingness by RAW. Great catch - I'll have to fix that in my system.


Thank you, that's very helpful. I'll still be double-checking - it's amazing what a second pair of eyes can spot.
I definitely appreciate that. I've spent so long with these spells that my eyes start to glaze over when I try to proofread.


I should clarify that I'll be mostly changing the description rather than the list. Well, probably, anyway, and it looks like foresight will be in my version of Awareness.
I really like the way the Awareness school came about. I created a Detection subschool, which you reinterpreted into a conceptually distinct Awareness subschool. Then I misinterpreted what you meant and created yet another conceptually (slightly) distinct Awareness subschool. Teamwork!


Your responses have been making my day. You've been very consistently giving me ideas for improving my subschools.
You too!


What was your basis for deciding which Mortality spells went where?
Effects which dealt directly with life force (or rather, destroy it directly), like Finger of Death and Slay Living, went into Life. Destruction has essentially no fluff or explanation for how it works, so that was problematic. I put it in Flesh because it consumes the body, so I decided that it killed people by destroying their bodies. Circle of Death and Undeath to death were also tricky. As written, Circle of Death would be Life without question; it's just like Finger of Death. However, Undeath to Death doesn't really fit. It could be Undeath if I had a school for that, but 1. I don't want an Undeath school and 2. It feels strange to put Circle of Death and Undeath to Death in separate subschools. That would be like putting Flesh to Stone and Stone to Flesh in different subschools - I can see why it would make sense from a certain perspective, but it just feels wrong. To solve the dilemma, I refluffed them to say that Undeath to Death works by infusing undead with a lethal amount of positive energy, and Circle of Death works by infusing the living with a lethal amount of negative energy. That puts them in Vitalism, and has the nice side effect of putting at least one one save-or-die in each subschool. I can't remember if there were other Mortality spells, sorry.


Which would also include bless water, consecrate, curse water, desecrate, and ghoul touch. The way core assigns positive/negative energy to spells seems 'off' to me. Cool name, though.
Not in my system - I removed the positive/negative energy fluff from bless water, consecrate, curse water, desecrate, and ghoul touch (also waves of fatigue, waves of exhaustion, and possibly a few others). I actually have a nice rant on how exactly Necromancy, positive and negative energy, alignments, and undead should work. Core is horribly inconsistent about how it treats those subjects, and I think I found a nicely intuitive way to assign consistency. We don't need to get into that right now unless you want to, though. And thanks! I actually researched that one.


I was treating 'life force' as something bypassed by mortality spells.
Interesting. I feel like Finger of Death doesn't bypass life force so much as snuff it out, but that's just quibbling.


Does reversing energy drain really really fit this subschool?
No, not really. That feels like it should require positive energy, since energy drain is caused by negative energy. Part of the problem is that Restoration never bothered to specify how it healed those effects; it just heals stuff. Actually, it "dispels" the effects, which almost makes it seem like Abjuration. This strikes me as another area where core is inconsistent or just plain weird on fluff, so I'll have to do some tweaking. Lesser Restoration feels solidly Flesh to me; all of the things it heals are Flesh effects. Restoration is where it first gains the ability to interact with negative levels, so I might make Restoration and Greater Restoration be (Flesh, Vitalism) [Healing, Positive]. Or I could just make the whole line be Vitalism. I don't see a perfect resolution to this.


Fair enough. I won't be doing this; I'm reluctant to use positive/negative energy as a subschool basis, and my revised Life Force subschool is large enough already.
I would point out that adding a Vitalism subschool would decrease the number of spells in Life, not increase it; it would take all of the Inflicts away, though it would leave the rest of the school intact. Also, it would solve the awkwardness of having Circle of Death be (Life Force), but having Undeath to Death be dual-subschool (Life Force, Undeath). Unfortunately, it would also steal several effects from Flesh, which you may not want.


If I was doing serious school-shuffling, I would likely put astral projection as Conjuration/Teleport, and Speak with Dead as Divination.
I actually think Astral Projection is the only planar travel effect I wouldn't put in Conjuration, for the simple reason that it doesn't affect your body at all; it really is just your spirit/soul/astral self that travels. Speak with Dead, on the other hand, I agree with. Fixed!


This looks like the beginning of a Curses subschool, especially if remove curse belongs here as I suspect it does.
If it was, it would supplant Scrying as the tiniest subschool. :smalltongue: I went back and forth on Remove Curse several times; if you think it belongs here, it probably does.


Does curse water belong here or with the other curse spells?
Oops, sorry - it got moved along with Bless Water to Evocation (Channeling).k


Also deathwatch?
Yup! I'll correct the post.


Looks good on a glance-through; I'll get back to this when I've gone through the other schools.
Cool.


Since more than half of the existing spells belong in the new subschools, new spells for them is hardly a priority.

I have hopes that getting the subschools right will make it easy to designate which spells from other sources go in which subschool, with a good chance of different DMs getting the same answers.
I think that this will be the test to see if these divisions have succeeded. Different people will always disagree on whether the definitions are the theoretical best ones, but the real test is whether we can consistently assign new spells to the same school/subschools with a particular set of definitions. If people agree, the subschool definitions are good!

[Deepbluediver]

It's substantially more complicated, and it doesn't even have the same effect. The subjects aren't penalized for entering the fog, as with the original Mind Fog, which is a very important part of the fluff of the spell. It's just two spells tacked onto each other. So it's more complicated and it isn't as good at being a fog that clouds the mind.

My point isn't necessarily that the system absolutely needs a "fog that clouds the mind" spell. It's that the system should be able to represent such a spell.
....
I get that, I really do. I just think you dramatically overestimate the degree to which you can actually create new effects properly just by smashing two existing spells together.

I feel that in the defense of my idea I may have been overzealous and given the impression that I dislike all Dual-school or Hybrid spells, which is not that case. In fact, I suspect I will ultimately end up using both.

What I don't like are spells that can be broken down into other, singular but still function spells. I don't really like Mislead or Incendiary Cloud because I see them as just combinations of other effects. Things like Clone or Assimilate I would have much less a problem with. And I'm on the fence about other stuff, like Mind Fog and even Cloudkill, because it seems like all you are really doing is conjuring up poison gas, and they only seem like they show up as part-Conjuration because they rely on being tied to a physical mist, rather than just being an AOE or lingering magical aura.


I can't express how much I wish I was done with my total spell overhaul so we could use that as a frame of reference. Hopefully by this weekend I will be done - I'm down to the Rs now, and the math is already done. Yes, I think it is possible! It's just really really hard.

I'm looking forward to reading it, but please don't rush. I don't have nearly the free time I wish I did these days.


"Breaking" a spell combination system by merely pointing out that it allows the use of spells which were already overpowered isn't really fair, I agree. I'll focus on examples which illustrate that the system is broken even if all spells involved are relatively fair.
*more stuff*
Empowered Shocking Grasp is a 3rd level spell that does 7.5d6=26 damage at 5th level. In contrast, Doublecast Shocking Grasp + Scorching Ray is a 3rd level spell that does 9d6 = 31 damage at 5th level. Doublecast is clearly superior. Do you think Empower is too weak? (Also, does the bonus to attack rolls from Shocking Grasp apply to the the touch attack for touch-range Scorching Ray? Are they the same touch attack?)
Sleet Storm is basically just Fog Cloud + Grease. However, it is vastly superior to a Doublecast Fog Cloud + Grease. Is Sleet Storm too powerful, or is Doublecast too weak?
What exactly is the range and area of effect of Lightning Bolt + Fireball, since we discussed that above? Is a 120 ft. line more or less than a 20 ft. radius? In any event, such a spell would do 20d6 damage as a 5th level spell in an area of effect. That's a massive amount of damage.
In many situations, Doublecast obliterates Quicken for efficiency. Ambushed? No problem - just cast Mirror Image and Levitate as a single action for a single 3rd level slot! Then next round, you can whip out a Glitterdust and a Web - again, as a single 3rd level spell slot. This is a massive power boost. (Plus, at high levels, you can do that and Quicken at the same time!) Note that this is true even if spell levels were perfectly balanced: you're still getting way more bang for your buck by Doublecasting.
Back to the drawing board then, I guess.

Changing the numbers on the chart is the easiest thing to do; I had assumed that two 3rd level spells would not be the same value as a 6th level spell but perhaps I had it backward, and they should be worth more.

I can also further limit what combinations can be used together based on things like Touch range, AOE, or Line vs. Ray.


Honestly, I've never had that issue; most combination spells are so specific that people don't really want to combine them. Also, I would set a hard limit of two schools and probably two subschools, justifiable with a "you can only make magic so complicated before it explodes in your face".

Ok, fair enough. This was the thought that made me add the "no hybrid spells" to the Doublecast rules, so I thought it was worth mentioning.


Well, it also drains their life force (+4 to all ability scores) and knowledge (the power known). So it's more than just Vampiric Touch + Alter Self. (And yes, Alter Self should definitely take a nerf bat to the face.)

As I alluded to earlier, my issue with the spell is that many of it's component parts can be fully separate spells in their own right, the life-drain, the self-buff, the disguise, even the powers-known (divination, perhaps).

Nothing really requires that they all be lumped together in one spell to get the same effect, except maybe for flavor, and I would rather have a bunch more 1st-4th level spells that can be combined, rather than just one uber-kill 9th level spell.


It has the potential to be very complex, depending on how the spell is worded and implemented. That's because I was just describing a spell concept, not a specific spell that I would want in my game - a concept that, actually, a variety of individual spells could be built from. An individual spell doesn't have to be complicated at all. Imagine the following spell:

Forceful Image
Evocation/Illusion (Control, Figment) [Force, Unreal]
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
This spell functions like silent image, except that sound, smell, thermal, and physical sensations are included in the spell effect. A creature interacting with the illusion encounters a physical barrier made of magical force, as appropriate to the illusion's form. Any damage dealt to the barrier shatters it, and it can support up to 2,000 lb. of weight before breaking.

Or this:
Draconic Image
Evocation/Illusion (Energy, Figment) [Unreal, varies; see text]
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
This spell functions like major image, except that it can only create the illusion of a dragon. Once during the spell's duration, you can have the dragon use a breath attack. This breath attack originates from the dragon's head and affects a 30 foot cone. Creatures in the area take 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6). The damage can be cold, fire, or electricity damage, as you choose. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. This damage is real and cannot be disbelieved.
I don't think these spells are not that complicated to use. They also look like a lot of fun to me. (Imagine your opponents' surprise when they disbelieve your dragon - only to be hit by the real breath attack!) These may not be totally polished, given that I just made them up, but I think they demonstrate the immense potential of hybrid-school spells.

Its not the spells that I'm taking issue with, its the fact that you seem to basically have recreated Conjuration with two other schools. The only real advantage that I can see over Summon Monster would be if can't use Conjuration for whatever reason.

In my version of the wizard, rather than "banning" certain schools, the player just gains access to more spells as they level up, so getting a usable scroll or wand would probably be simpler.


Depends what you mean by "break". It's not a huge balance concern, though I think it will leave Evocation very spell-starved; school placement rarely is. But I really don't think it makes much sense.

Yeah, I'll probably leave offensive-force effects in Evocation for now. There are also energy-intensive Evocation spells in the PHB that the Wizard doesn't get access to (like Call Lightning or Fire Storm on the druid list) which I might add.


I think this is something you have to figure out. I like the way I have the schools and subschools distributed. If you come up with a fully new distribution, and I'll take a look, naturally.

I'm going through the Sor/Wiz spell list, trying to figure where to move things. It's proving a real pain to try and balance spell-distribution by school and level simultaneously.

Between that, reworking the formula for doublecast, and other projects, I have no idea when I might declare even a rough-draft ready for review.

To paraphrase something someone recently told me "Magic is hard". :smallamused:


Evocation gets alignment-sensitive spells because it is channeling divine energy, and divine energy is selective about its targets. Different cause, similar mechanics - but the mechanics are distinct, and you can't treat them as being interchangeable.

I realize what I'm about to say sounds like I'm contradicting my previous statements, but I think its actually just that I didn't do a good job of explaining myself.

I think a school should be determined by what it does and not by its source, but NOT by the affect it has.

To build on my previous example, a spell that manipulates elemental energy (heat, cold, electric) will almost always be Evocation. A spell that changes an object's properties (Bless Weapon) will almost always be Transmutation.
The exceptions will be for spells with very specific functions that also appear to have overlapping causes (Resist Energy).
And all this is, of course, is not set in stone; I'll try to note any major changes to my state of mind as I work on this.


Just so long as different characters are very distinct from each other.

As I mentioned, one of the things I did for my Wizard fix was change how Wizards get access to spells, part of which made it more limited so not every wizard defaults to having access to everything.

That's part of the reason why I tend to have a negative reaction to what I see as recreating school X with combinations of schools Y and Z- because it effectively undoes my prior efforts to tone down the versatility/supremacy of magic.


I like where you're going. I think you need to go deeper, though. Does Empower really need to exist? Should it exist? I think it is actually bad for the game.

I was looking at metamagic yesterday, and I actually don't mind Empower. I have a bigger problem with Maximize since it takes the randomness out of the situation without actually improving its potential at all.

There are plenty of meta-magic effects I'd removed or change, but the way it interacts with other things, particularly with regards to meta-magic reducers, is so bjorked that I've twice attempted fixes and gotten nowhere. IMO, it needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, AFTER the structural rules and divisions for magic have been firmly hashed out.


Low standards to clear. :smalltongue:

One of my teachers in middle school had a great poster on their wall; it said something like "Shoot for the Moon, that way even if you miss you'll land among the stars".
Then one day in class we watched a video of the challenger space shuttle explosion.

Baby steps, Vladdy, baby steps. :smalltongue:


I find this statement extremely vague. (Though if I were to take "as inclusive with definitions as possible" literally, I would conclude that you wanted every subschool to include every spell in the book.)

These comments are now several days and much discussion out of date, so what I thought then might no longer apply, but I'll try to respond as best I can.

I believe what I meant was that having fewer, larger subschools would be easier to arrange than having many very specific subschools. You seem to have bypassed the problem by allowing dual-subschool spells.


Whether reality is binary in the real world is irrelevant to both the definition of 'partially real illusions' and the shadow subschool (and way outside the scope of this thread).

That reality is not binary in the 3.5 core rules is, while not relevant to the definition of 'partially real illusions', somewhat relevant to whether the shadow subschool should included in a given set of homebrew rules. Since 3.5 core is what is being modified, 'reality' is only binary if the rules are so modified.

Whether reality is binary in a given set of homebrew rules is, while still not relevant to the definition of 'partially real illusions', extremely relevant to whether the shadow subschool should be in that homebrew. If reality is binary, the shadow subschool should not exist. Period. (Some of the spells might be salvageable, shadow walk being the strongest contender.)

Lets agree to try an not let ourselves be sidetracked.

Sound and light are plenty real; in the end it comes down to what you want out of the Illusion School. If I want Conjuration or Evocation spells than I'll go to those schools. I don't see any benefit in given weakened versions of those spells to the Illusion school, except to pad out the spell list with things that don't really (IMO) fit in with the rest of the spells. By the same token, I won't be claiming I can manipulate heat and cold to refract light and get a 20% believable Illusion out of the Evocation school.

So yes, I don't think the Shadow subschool should be a thing, and that as dimensional-travel/teleportation, Shadow Walk or its equivalent belongs in Conjuration. You probably disagree though, and that's fine. We can have differences of opinion.


Most illusions make creatures think things are real.
....
Since I don't know what problems you are claiming the spells don't fix, I do not know whether it fixes them. Or whether I would care if I did know.

It comes back to what I commented on before- are Illusions light and sound or are they mental-affects? If it's light and sound, then my character can disbelieve the dragon he's seeing is real, but he will still see it.

The problem I was referring to was mainly the option to auto-disbelieve all illusions at will, and the fact that a player might risk him being wrong about the dragon whereas a character in that situation might not chance it. It dis-values illusions because frequently everyone knows (or suspects) they aren't real, and act differently than they might otherwise.


Project image isn't notably impinging or versatile. (Shadow walk and simulacrum aren't notably versatile either, and changing them to fit binary reality would involve changing the schools to what they formerly impinged on.)

I'm not sure I get exactly what you are saying here.

I think those specific spells (Shadow Walk and Simulacrum) where poorly designed or badly placed from the get-go, so trying to "fix" them will meet with only limited success so long as you remain within the original broken framework.

Project Image, by contrast, is fine.

[Vadskye]

I feel that in the defense of my idea I may have been overzealous and given the impression that I dislike all Dual-school or Hybrid spells, which is not that case. In fact, I suspect I will ultimately end up using both.
Cool!


What I don't like are spells that can be broken down into other, singular but still function spells. I don't really like Mislead or Incendiary Cloud because I see them as just combinations of other effects. Things like Clone or Assimilate I would have much less a problem with. And I'm on the fence about other stuff, like Mind Fog and even Cloudkill, because it seems like all you are really doing is conjuring up poison gas, and they only seem like they show up as part-Conjuration because they rely on being tied to a physical mist, rather than just being an AOE or lingering magical aura.
In fairness, you have convinced me that if there is a system that is as easy to use as Doublecast, Mislead is unnecessary. I think it is still necessary if the system for combining spells is less player-friendly, though. Also, the more you pick on Incendiary Cloud, the less I like the spell. I honestly have no idea why we need to have a fog that is also on fire. Evocation can manage a damage-over-time Fireball without Conjuration's help, and it would probably make more sense.

I still like Mind Fog and Cloudkill, though, because I feel like the fog is an integral part of their effects.


I'm looking forward to reading it, but please don't rush. I don't have nearly the free time I wish I did these days.
Me either. If I was back in the heydey of my homebrewing, I would have had this done ages ago. But I didn't have a job then, so, you know. Tradeoffs.


Back to the drawing board then, I guess.

Changing the numbers on the chart is the easiest thing to do; I had assumed that two 3rd level spells would not be the same value as a 6th level spell but perhaps I had it backward, and they should be worth more.
I think that Twin Spell and Quicken Spell are reasonable starting points. One places the cost of "two spells of the X level at once" to be X+4 spell levels. The other places the cost of "one spell of X level and one spell of X-4 level" to be 2 uses of X. The restrictions on Twin more closely match the restrictions you are using. What if you used that as the basis for the table, and adjusted to accomodate "two spells of different levels at once" using Quicken and Repeat as rough guidelines (keeping in mind that Quicken is very powerful, and you may not want to exactly replicate its power)?


I can also further limit what combinations can be used together based on things like Touch range, AOE, or Line vs. Ray.
You could, but I'd actually avoid taking that route. If you are too restrictive, you just end up with another Persist Spell: 90% useless, and broken when you can use it. Better to be less restrictive and then build a system that can handle creative spell usage. With that said, you will definitely need some restrictions, if only to make sure that the effects of the combinations are obvious. (which Lightningfire Boltball wasn't, originally.)


As I alluded to earlier, my issue with the spell is that many of it's component parts can be fully separate spells in their own right, the life-drain, the self-buff, the disguise, even the powers-known (divination, perhaps).

Nothing really requires that they all be lumped together in one spell to get the same effect, except maybe for flavor, and I would rather have a bunch more 1st-4th level spells that can be combined, rather than just one uber-kill 9th level spell.
I think the way you want the system to work has finally "clicked" for me. I see what you mean here. The life-drain is basically just a souped-up Death Knell that is automatically cast on the target when it dies - so why not just make a "Greater Death Knell" that gives the +4 ability scores (and possibly the power/spell known, but I'd rather skip that) and then say that you can make this spell by casting Vampiric Touch + Greater Death Knell + Alter Self?

I can see the attraction of that. But it seems nightmarishly difficult to actually build something that lets me cast "Vampiric Touch + Greater Death Knell + Alter Self" spontaneously. Maybe an idea that would work better in a video game that can do all the processing for you on the fly than in an RPG.

Ooh. Actually, I have an idea. I don't think you will ever be able to make a system that lets you combine arbitrary spells arbitrarily. But what if you assigned tags to each spell that specified how it could be used in combinations? Alter Self might have a [Combo-OK] tag which would let it be added freely onto any spell combination, since it only affects the caster and doesn't really interact much with any other effects. In contrast, Fireball might have a [Combo-Area] tag which specifies that its effects can only be combined with other [Combo-Area] effects. And let's say that Shocking Grasp has a [Combo-Target] tag which says that its effects can only be combined with other [Combo-Target] effects.

Now the key here is that this doesn't mean you can't cast a Doublecast Fireball/Shocking Grasp. However, the tags would define which effects happen to which target. In that case, there should be rules that specify that the Fireball's point of origin must be the same as the [Combo-Target] target. Thus, you would touch someone, and then they would be the center of a Fireball (which would presumably hit yourself too...). This is just the framework of the idea, but does that sound interesting to you?


Its not the spells that I'm taking issue with, its the fact that you seem to basically have recreated Conjuration with two other schools. The only real advantage that I can see over Summon Monster would be if can't use Conjuration for whatever reason.
I think they are different effects. Summon Monster is a combat spell that draws from a very specific list of monsters (none of which include dragons). Forceful Image is only tangentially useful in combat; I can imagine having much more fun using it to create a bridge that collapses when the army starts walking across it, or to create really convincing illusionary walls, or just to create a staircase that allows you to reach a higher location... the sky's the limit. I think it's totally different. (Actually, Forceful Image is insanely useful. I might want to nerf it.)

Draconic Image is useful in combat, but for completely different reasons than summoned monsters. Summoned monsters are HP sinks, they threaten (and help flank), and they make attacks. Draconic Image is an Evocation spell on a stick - totally different.


Yeah, I'll probably leave offensive-force effects in Evocation for now. There are also energy-intensive Evocation spells in the PHB that the Wizard doesn't get access to (like Call Lightning or Fire Storm on the druid list) which I might add.
Add to what now? To Abjuration? :smallconfused:


I'm going through the Sor/Wiz spell list, trying to figure where to move things. It's proving a real pain to try and balance spell-distribution by school and level simultaneously.

Between that, reworking the formula for doublecast, and other projects, I have no idea when I might declare even a rough-draft ready for review.

To paraphrase something someone recently told me "Magic is hard". :smallamused:
I don't know who you could be talking about, but they sound like a pansy. Real men homebrew instead of sleeping.


I realize what I'm about to say sounds like I'm contradicting my previous statements, but I think its actually just that I didn't do a good job of explaining myself.

I think a school should be determined by what it does and not by its source, but NOT by the affect it has.

To build on my previous example, a spell that manipulates elemental energy (heat, cold, electric) will almost always be Evocation. A spell that changes an object's properties (Bless Weapon) will almost always be Transmutation.
The exceptions will be for spells with very specific functions that also appear to have overlapping causes (Resist Energy).
And all this is, of course, is not set in stone; I'll try to note any major changes to my state of mind as I work on this.
How can you define something based on "what it does" and not based on its effect? What exactly does that mean, then?


As I mentioned, one of the things I did for my Wizard fix was change how Wizards get access to spells, part of which made it more limited so not every wizard defaults to having access to everything.

That's part of the reason why I tend to have a negative reaction to what I see as recreating school X with combinations of schools Y and Z- because it effectively undoes my prior efforts to tone down the versatility/supremacy of magic.
I think that toning down versatility/supremacy of magic can be done in other, more nuanced ways than just making each individual wizard total masters of one domain and useless in all the rest. I don't have a problem with allowing flexibility of school because the flexibility of each individual spell should be lower.


I was looking at metamagic yesterday, and I actually don't mind Empower. I have a bigger problem with Maximize since it takes the randomness out of the situation without actually improving its potential at all.

There are plenty of meta-magic effects I'd removed or change, but the way it interacts with other things, particularly with regards to meta-magic reducers, is so bjorked that I've twice attempted fixes and gotten nowhere. IMO, it needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, AFTER the structural rules and divisions for magic have been firmly hashed out.
I mostly agree. I just remember how much it helped me to build my system when I realized that Empower was a massive problem. I'll have a long rant on that some other time.


One of my teachers in middle school had a great poster on their wall; it said something like "Shoot for the Moon, that way even if you miss you'll land among the stars".
Then one day in class we watched a video of the challenger space shuttle explosion.

Baby steps, Vladdy, baby steps. :smalltongue:
xD

[Deepbluediver]

In fairness, you have convinced me that if there is a system that is as easy to use as Doublecast, Mislead is unnecessary. I think it is still necessary if the system for combining spells is less player-friendly, though. Also, the more you pick on Incendiary Cloud, the less I like the spell. I honestly have no idea why we need to have a fog that is also on fire. Evocation can manage a damage-over-time Fireball without Conjuration's help, and it would probably make more sense.

I still like Mind Fog and Cloudkill, though, because I feel like the fog is an integral part of their effects.

You've brought up a lot of things that I don't think I would have considered, plus convinced me to not get rid of Hybrid spells. I certainly have enjoyed our discussion and felt it was very helpful.

For the cloud/fog spells....I would almost rather have a way that I can just infuse Obscuring Mist with any other spell or alchemical mixture; then I can have a Fog of Fear, Cold Cloud, Mist of Cure Light Wounds, Cloud of Baleful Polymorph, Alchemists Fire-Fog, etc etc etc....


I think the way you want the system to work has finally "clicked" for me. I see what you mean here. The life-drain is basically just a souped-up Death Knell that is automatically cast on the target when it dies - so why not just make a "Greater Death Knell" that gives the +4 ability scores (and possibly the power/spell known, but I'd rather skip that) and then say that you can make this spell by casting Vampiric Touch + Greater Death Knell + Alter Self?

I can see the attraction of that. But it seems nightmarishly difficult to actually build something that lets me cast "Vampiric Touch + Greater Death Knell + Alter Self" spontaneously. Maybe an idea that would work better in a video game that can do all the processing for you on the fly than in an RPG.

Ah good, we're getting close to the same wavelength then.

I admit that I don't always explain what I mean very well, and sometimes I just don't know what I want (more on this later).

I DO NOT want to say that magic "can't do everything". It's magic, goddammit, we write the rules and the rules can be whatever the **** we want them to be.

What I have come to realize is that I think part of what I'm going for is that magic can't do everything all at once. There is no spell that reads "rescue the princess, slay the dragon, get half a kingdom to rule over as benevolent lord or tyrannical monster". What magic provides is a set of options that will help me achieve that.

So, maybe getting Assimilate all in one fell swoop might be beyond the reach of most characters, but given a few rounds, I can, as separate actions, probe my target's mind for information, Illusion or Transmute myself to look like them, drain their lifeforce, and then disintegrate the body into ash to hide my crime.


I think that Twin Spell and Quicken Spell are reasonable starting points. One places the cost of "two spells of the X level at once" to be X+4 spell levels. The other places the cost of "one spell of X level and one spell of X-4 level" to be 2 uses of X. The restrictions on Twin more closely match the restrictions you are using. What if you used that as the basis for the table, and adjusted to accommodate "two spells of different levels at once" using Quicken and Repeat as rough guidelines.

Its certainly a better starting point than what I was using, which was just "eyeball it".

It will probably take some mathing it out and other experimentation to determine if a flat formula is sufficient.
I.e. if 1+1+x=6, then is 3+3+x=10? Or is it more or less?


keeping in mind that Quicken is very powerful, and you may not want to exactly replicate its power.

There are multiple things about the spell system I'd like to alter. Making 1 round spell cast as a standard action or turning a 10 minute spell into a 1 minute spell probably aren't so bad; its the double-up on actions (2 or more spells per round) that is usually considered the broken part.
If you put in a hard limit of one-spell-per-round, would casters have enough to do with the rest of their turn to make it worthwhile? Or maybe we should just scrap Quicken and leave it at Twincast and Doublecast (needs a better name).

I'm seriously considering just getting rid of any and all spells that cast as swift or immediate actions, and features that let you do the same. We can still allow for action-economy circumventing stuff via Haste and Time Stop, just make it less ubiquitous.


Ooh. Actually, I have an idea. I don't think you will ever be able to make a system that lets you combine arbitrary spells arbitrarily. But what if you assigned tags to each spell that specified how it could be used in combinations? Alter Self might have a [Combo-OK] tag which would let it be added freely onto any spell combination, since it only affects the caster and doesn't really interact much with any other effects. In contrast, Fireball might have a [Combo-Area] tag which specifies that its effects can only be combined with other [Combo-Area] effects. And let's say that Shocking Grasp has a [Combo-Target] tag which says that its effects can only be combined with other [Combo-Target] effects.

Now the key here is that this doesn't mean you can't cast a Doublecast Fireball/Shocking Grasp. However, the tags would define which effects happen to which target. In that case, there should be rules that specify that the Fireball's point of origin must be the same as the [Combo-Target] target. Thus, you would touch someone, and then they would be the center of a Fireball (which would presumably hit yourself too...). This is just the framework of the idea, but does that sound interesting to you?


Ooooooh. Me like. :smallsmile:

Mucho gracias.


I think they are different effects. Summon Monster is a combat spell that draws from a very specific list of monsters (none of which include dragons). Forceful Image is only tangentially useful in combat; I can imagine having much more fun using it to create a bridge that collapses when the army starts walking across it, or to create really convincing illusionary walls, or just to create a staircase that allows you to reach a higher location... the sky's the limit. I think it's totally different. (Actually, Forceful Image is insanely useful. I might want to nerf it.)

For "magical staircase or barrier", we've already got Levitate, Flight, Air Walk, Mage Hand, Floating Disk, and Wall of Force, plus probably a few others. I'd also like to replace Fire Trap with just a generic "Trap" spell that lets me apply whatever effects I want when certain conditions are met (like, say, dozens of individuals walking on top).

I like what you're doing; most of the suggestions are very creative use of magic. But for the most part they seem fairly easy to recreate with other, single use spells. While it's fun to hear what you come up with, I'm not sure this line of conversation is providing any more value; we've each got our opinion of what works best and we're sticking to it. For further ideas, I'll look forward to reading the full modified spell list.


Draconic Image is useful in combat, but for completely different reasons than summoned monsters. Summoned monsters are HP sinks, they threaten (and help flank), and they make attacks. Draconic Image is an Evocation spell on a stick - totally different.

Ok, I was mistaken about what I compared it too. My bad.

Evocation on a stick or evocation emanating from a point that isn't the caster seems like the valuable-in-combat half of the spell here, and if that's the goal, then why warn my enemies I'm going to smite them from behind by sticking a huge image of a dragon onto it?

Being able to trigger Burning Hands at range doesn't require any part of illusion, as far as I know.


Add to what now? To Abjuration? :smallconfused:

No, to the Wizard's spell list, under Evocation.

I'm also debating how to spread around the various types of spells and damage. Cone of Cold and Burning hands are relatively similar, one is higher level and with different scaling, but they are both similarly shaped AOE damage spells.
Would it be better to have <Energy> Cone at level 2 and let players pick? Then have <Energy> Shield at level 3, Orb of <Energy> at level 4, <Energy> Storm at level 7, etc.
Or should I pick and choose what levels each spell shows up at?
This isn't really a question, I'm just sort of thinking out loud....I mean, verablly...I mean, literal-...aw feck it. :smallfurious:


How can you define something based on "what it does" and not based on its effect? What exactly does that mean, then?

...I don't know. I'm not sure I can explain what I am picturing in my head here, even though I know what I want

Maybe its because I keep trying to define spell-schools in a vacuum. Evocation is "manipulates elemental energy"; that's easy.
Is Transmutation "affects matter"? A fireball affects matter, too.

Maybe I should start with the simple schools, and as I add categories they will "everything that meets criteria X that isn't already assigned to another school".

So Conjuration is "summons matter or creatures, but not energy", etc.

I think what I'm going for is that schools are determined by what a spell does, but not what a player accomplishes with it. We'll try that explanation for now...I give it 12 hours at most before I realize it's also insufficient.


I think that toning down versatility/supremacy of magic can be done in other, more nuanced ways than just making each individual wizard total masters of one domain and useless in all the rest. I don't have a problem with allowing flexibility of school because the flexibility of each individual spell should be lower.

Yeah, it's a multi-front offensive, but my goal was not to make each wizard only able to (effectively) use a single school. They start off with one, but gain access to additional schools quickly, especially at lower levels.

A high level Wizard would like be able to replicate many effects, especially with Dual-school stuff being available to both categories, but they will need to work a little harder and they shouldn't be so dominant at all levels.


If I was back in the heydey of my homebrewing, I would have had this done ages ago. But I didn't have a job then, so, you know. Tradeoffs.

That which provides us the resources (money) and freedom to pursue our own hobbies, also means we have responsibilities that occupy most of the time would could be devoting to those hobbies.

Peter Pan was right; growing up sucks.

Also, forget fireman or astronaut or President or any of the other stuff we wanted to be as kids, I want my new career to be "professional lottery winner". :smallbiggrin:

/endsilly

[Vadskye]

You've brought up a lot of things that I don't think I would have considered, plus convinced me to not get rid of Hybrid spells.

For the cloud/fog spells....I would almost rather have a way that I can just infuse Obscuring Mist with any other spell or alchemical mixture; then I can have a Fog of Fear, Cold Cloud, Mist of Cure Light Wounds, Cloud of Baleful Polymorph, Alchemists Fire-Fog, etc etc etc....
I feel like "mist of Cure Light Wounds" is exactly why this wouldn't work :smalltongue: Making arbitrary effects repeatable is a recipe for potential disaster. With that said, it is possible that there could be a tag to indicate spells which would be balanced when added onto a fog-type effect. Cure Light Wounds wouldn't have the tag, but maybe Cause Fear would. That's a fairly specific use-case - I'd want to refine and broaden that idea. Also, determining the appropriate level for a spell like that sounds really difficult.


Ah good, we're getting close to the same wavelength then.I admit that I don't always explain what I mean very well, and sometimes I just don't know what I want (more on this later).

I DO NOT want to say that magic "can't do everything". It's magic, goddammit, we write the rules and it can do whatever the **** we tell it to.

What I have come to realize is that I think part of what I'm going for is that magic can't do everything all at once. There is no spell that reads "rescue the princess, slay the dragon, get half a kingdom to rule over as benevolent lord or tyrannical monster". What magic provides is a set of options that will help me achieve that.

So, maybe getting Assimilate all in one fell swoop might be beyond the reach of most charactersbut given a few rounds, I can, as separate actions, probe my target's mind for information, Illusion or Transmute myself to look like them, drain their lifeforce, and then disintegrate the body into ash to hide my crime.
Indeed. I think we've refined the idea to the point that my objections are "that's really difficult to implement" instead of "why on earth would you want to do that?". Which is just a step or two away from actually implementing it!


Its certainly a better starting point than what I was using, which was just "eyeball it".

It will probably take some mathing it out and other experimentation to determine if a flat formula is sufficient.
I.e. if 1+1+x=6, then is 3+3+x=10? Or is it more or less?
Before you try to math out combining spells, you will need to math out creating spells in the first place. If you don't have a good, solid system for spell creation, you're going to have a terrible time trying to do spell combination.


There are multiple things about the spell system I'd like to alter. Making 1 round spell cast as a standard action or turning a 10 minute spell into a 1 minute spell probably aren't so bad; its the double-up on actions (2 or more spells per round) that is usually considered the broken part.
If you put in a hard limit of one-spell-per-round, would casters have enough to do with the rest of their turn to make it worthwhile? Or maybe we should just scrap Quicken and leave it at Twincast and Doublecast (needs a better name).

I'm seriously considering just getting rid of any and all spells that cast as swift or immediate actions, and features that let you do the same. We can still allow for action-economy circumventing stuff via Haste and Time Stop, just make it less ubiquitous.
Gahhhh I want my spell system finished so I can lay out exactly what I have and why. I actually dealt with all these issues, but it's hard to explain piecemeal. Anyway, I converted Quicken to "+2 spell level, but you lose your next standard action". Still iconic and unique, and still allows you to Quicken a spell when you need to, but no longer breaks the action economy. This is all part of a system which completely revamps spell scaling - low-level spells are too good in my system for Quicken (or anything which gives easy access to multiple spells) to work.


Ooh.

Ooh ooh ooh.

Me like. :smallsmile:
Excellent!


For "magical staircase or barrier", we've already got Levitate, Flight, Air Walk, Mage Hand, Floating Disk, and Wall of Force, plus probably a few others. I'd also like to replace Fire Trap with just a generic "Trap" spell that lets me apply whatever effects I want when certain conditions are triggered (like, say, dozens of individuals walking on top).
Yes, I'd rather not have one spell replace the utility of all of those spells. Well, maybe a high level spell. Actually, I kind of like the idea of having a series of high-level "multispells", like Forceful Image and (revised) Polymorph Any Object, that can replicate the effects of a variety of lower-level effects. Maybe.


I like what you're doing; most of the suggestions are very creative use of magic. But for the most part they seem fairly easy to recreate with other, single use spells. While it's fun to hear what you come up with, I'm not sure this line of conversation is providing any more value; we've each got our opinion of what works best and we're sticking to it. For further ideas, I'll look forward to reading the full modified spell list.
Yeah, I kind of lost track of what I was doing other than making cool hybrid spells.


Ok, I was mistaken about what I compared it too. My bad.

Evocation on a stick or evocation emanating from a point that isn't the caster seems like the valuable-in-combat half of the spell here, and if that's the goal, then why warn my enemies I'm going to smite them from behind by sticking a huge image of a dragon onto it?
Some casters will use it primarily to blast their opponents with fire. Some will use it primarily to create a very convincing illusion of a dragon. That's okay - flexibility is a feature, not a bug.


No, to the Wizard's spell list, under Evocation.
Ahh, got it. The cleric/druid/wizard division is... very vague in core. I don't think anyone would bat an eye if you did that, but I have a goal of making the divide between those spell lists as clear and intuitive as the divide between schools.


I'm also debating how to spread around the various types of spells and damage. Cone of Cold and Burning hands are relatively similar, one is higher level and with different scaling, but they are both similarly shaped AOE damage spells.
Would it be better to have <Energy> Cone at level 2 and let players pick? Then have <Energy> Shield at level 3, Orb of <Energy> at level 4, <Energy> Storm at level 7, etc.
Or should I pick and choose what levels each spell shows up at?
This isn't really a question, I'm just sort of thinking out loud....I mean, verablly...I mean, literal-...aw feck it. :smallfurious:
If you do that, you limit the potential to give each type of energy a unique flavor. My Cone of Cold fatigues its targets, and my Polar Ray slows its target. I also made an "Immolating Fireball" spell that sets its targets on fire, but I think that one will get left out for spell list balancing reasons. Also, you get weird fluff - how exactly do you make a radius of electricity? And you lose some of the most iconic spells in the game. I'd keep the separate spells for different energy types.


...I don't know. I'm not sure I can explain what I am picturing in my head here, even though I know what I want

Maybe its because I keep trying to define spell-schools in a vacuum. Evocation is "manipulates elemental energy"; that's easy.
Is Transmutation "affects matter"? A fireball affects matter, too.

Maybe I should start with the simple schools, and as I add categories they will "everything that meets criteria X that isn't already assigned to another school".

So Conjuration is "summons matter or creatures, but not energy", etc.

I think what I'm going for is that schools are determined by what a spell does, but not what a player accomplishes with it. We'll try that explanation for now...I give it 12 hours at most before I realize it's also insufficient.
I think the only way to create properly rigorous definitions is to define things in terms of cause. Note that cause has certain implications for effect - Divination is never going to get a spell that does damage to objects, for example, and Necromancy will never make fire. But the core definition is causal.


Yeah, it's a multi-front offensive, but my goal was not to make each wizard only able to (effectively) use a single school. They start off with one, but gain access to additional schools quickly, especially at lower levels.

A high level Wizard would like be able to replicate many effects, especially with Dual-school stuff being available to both categories, but they will need to work a little harder and they shouldn't be so dominant at all levels.
Sounds like tomayto vs. tomahto to me. Either way, the way we define spells (or, I guess, tomatoes) should be the same.


That which provides us the resources (money) and freedom to pursue our own hobbies, also means we have responsibilities that occupy most of the time would could be devoting to those hobbies.

Peter Pan was right; growing up sucks.

Also, forget fireman or astronaut or President or any of the other stuff we wanted to be as kids, I want my new career to be "professional lottery winner". :smallbiggrin:

/endsilly
I could definitely go for that!

[tarkisflux]

This thread didn't update for a few days, then I went on vacation and it exploded. I'm pretty far behind now and don't really feel like catching up*, but I also don't want people to think that I'm ignoring their responses or not following through on promised thoughts.

So here's some responses that may not even be relevant anymore :smallbiggrin:

Ideasmith
The Locate spells still seem like awareness spells rather than knowledge spells. If you made changes to the descriptions to try to keep the current divisions, it still doesn't seem to match the spell fluff. Not a big deal in the long run though.

You could merge emotion with charm and retain the charm subschool name if you wanted. It's a less descriptive name, but you can resolve those issues in the description. Keeping them separate isn't going to hurt anything though, so whatever.

The transmutation changes work well, and removes any lingering concerns over the school.

Vadskye
Thanks for the responses, your position seems workable. I disagree with it on preference or simplification of definition grounds, but I also don't want to get into it in any depth here. So yeah....

General
And now I return you to your regularly scheduled discussion about whatever you've moved on to :smallwink:.

*I'm not really invested in the topic and was mostly here for the theoretical exercise of it. My preferred direction is to remove subschools entirely in favor of descriptors, which isn't particularly compatible with this thread.

[Deepbluediver]

I feel like "mist of Cure Light Wounds" is exactly why this wouldn't work :smalltongue: Making arbitrary effects repeatable is a recipe for potential disaster. With that said, it is possible that there could be a tag to indicate spells which would be balanced when added onto a fog-type effect. Cure Light Wounds wouldn't have the tag, but maybe Cause Fear would. That's a fairly specific use-case - I'd want to refine and broaden that idea. Also, determining the appropriate level for a spell like that sounds really difficult.

/shrug
Mist of Fast Healing, then. You're right about repeatable effects, of course, but almost anything with a duration would be manageable, I think.

But overall, yes, it's on my list of things that would be nice, but may not be practical without a case-by-case ruling from the DM.


Yes, I'd rather not have one spell replace the utility of all of those spells. Well, maybe a high level spell. Actually, I kind of like the idea of having a series of high-level "multispells", like Forceful Image and (revised) Polymorph Any Object, that can replicate the effects of a variety of lower-level effects. Maybe.

I can see how that would be appealing, especially at higher levels.
Personally, I don't really like "toolbox spells" such as Summon Monster or Polymorph, that are really a dozen or more spells in one. I'm probably going to tone down their versatility somewhat, and compensate in other ways, but I'd rather not get into that here because it usually proves....divisive (aka, unpopular).


Ahh, got it. The cleric/druid/wizard division is... very vague in core. I don't think anyone would bat an eye if you did that, but I have a goal of making the divide between those spell lists as clear and intuitive as the divide between schools.

An admirable goal. If I end up with anything like that, I suspect it will be mostly a matter of coincidence. I've already got enough on my plate.


If you do that, you limit the potential to give each type of energy a unique flavor. My Cone of Cold fatigues its targets, and my Polar Ray slows its target. I also made an "Immolating Fireball" spell that sets its targets on fire, but I think that one will get left out for spell list balancing reasons. Also, you get weird fluff - how exactly do you make a radius of electricity? And you lose some of the most iconic spells in the game. I'd keep the separate spells for different energy types.

Yes, I think I will, too. It lets me have different rates of scaling for spells learned at difference levels as well. I was originally just trying to make things more flexible for people picking spells.
I still don't like the Energy Substitution metamagic feat, but I can live with it, or something similar.

Also, a radius of Electric damage is easy- name spells things like Ball Lightning and Power Pulse. It was actually the cone I was worried about for that one. :smallwink:


I think the only way to create properly rigorous definitions is to define things in terms of cause. Note that cause has certain implications for effect - Divination is never going to get a spell that does damage to objects, for example, and Necromancy will never make fire. But the core definition is causal.

So long as the definitions are clear and distinct, I don't mind what method they need to use to get there, but I'll keep it in mind.

[ideasmith]

Do you mean is binary?

So I do. Thanks for catching that.


You are funny, ideasmith.

Have you been reading my signature, by any chance?


Indeed. That's a weird case, since I think the reference to it creating light was accidentally dropped between editions.

No such reference in the 3.0 SRD (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html), 2nd edition AD&D, 1st edition AD&D, or the spells first appearance in the first issue of The Dragon (as Dragon Magazine was called back then). So far as I can determine, the description to color spray has never mentioned light.


Yup! (Though I renamed Teleportation to Translocation and made Teleportation a descriptor; it's fairly trivial, but it makes it much more intuitive that a spell like Blink ends up in that subschool.)

That makes sense.


I can actually see that working quite well. Not sure what to name it - maybe Transmutation (Nature) or Transmutation (Natural)? Transmutation (Plants) just sounds... awkward to me, even if it is accurate.

Possibly Transmutation (Vegetation).


By Fharlanghn, you're right. I feel like the text about being "created from natural wood" and "remaining natural wood in almost every way", combined with the fact that it was Transmutation implies that it was supposed to just transmute existing wood - but as written, it either creates new wood out of thin air that disappears, or it causes a significant amount of ordinary wood to spontaneously cease to exist after a period of time. Given that it is speficically listed as an "Effect", you're right that it would create new temporary wood from nothingness by RAW. Great catch - I'll have to fix that in my system.

Thank you.


I definitely appreciate that. I've spent so long with these spells that my eyes start to glaze over when I try to proofread.

You are welcome.


I really like the way the Awareness school came about. I created a Detection subschool, which you reinterpreted into a conceptually distinct Awareness subschool. Then I misinterpreted what you meant and created yet another conceptually (slightly) distinct Awareness subschool. Teamwork!

Teamwork!


You too!

Thank you.


Effects which dealt directly with life force (or rather, destroy it directly), like Finger of Death and Slay Living, went into Life. Destruction has essentially no fluff or explanation for how it works, so that was problematic. I put it in Flesh because it consumes the body, so I decided that it killed people by destroying their bodies. Circle of Death and Undeath to death were also tricky. As written, Circle of Death would be Life without question; it's just like Finger of Death. However, Undeath to Death doesn't really fit. It could be Undeath if I had a school for that, but 1. I don't want an Undeath school and 2. It feels strange to put Circle of Death and Undeath to Death in separate subschools. That would be like putting Flesh to Stone and Stone to Flesh in different subschools - I can see why it would make sense from a certain perspective, but it just feels wrong. To solve the dilemma, I refluffed them to say that Undeath to Death works by infusing undead with a lethal amount of positive energy, and Circle of Death works by infusing the living with a lethal amount of negative energy. That puts them in Vitalism, and has the nice side effect of putting at least one one save-or-die in each subschool. I can't remember if there were other Mortality spells, sorry.

There were also death knell, symbol of death, and wail of the banshee. As for undeath to death, destruction and symbol of death also instantly slay undead.


Not in my system - I removed the positive/negative energy fluff from bless water, consecrate, curse water, desecrate, and ghoul touch (also waves of fatigue, waves of exhaustion, and possibly a few others). I actually have a nice rant on how exactly Necromancy, positive and negative energy, alignments, and undead should work. Core is horribly inconsistent about how it treats those subjects, and I think I found a nicely intuitive way to assign consistency. We don't need to get into that right now unless you want to, though. And thanks! I actually researched that one.

Since I'm not changing the spell descriptions of the core spells, this may be why I'm reluctant to use negative energy to distinguish subschools.


No, not really. That feels like it should require positive energy, since energy drain is caused by negative energy. Part of the problem is that Restoration never bothered to specify how it healed those effects; it just heals stuff. Actually, it "dispels" the effects, which almost makes it seem like Abjuration. This strikes me as another area where core is inconsistent or just plain weird on fluff, so I'll have to do some tweaking. Lesser Restoration feels solidly Flesh to me; all of the things it heals are Flesh effects. Restoration is where it first gains the ability to interact with negative levels, so I might make Restoration and Greater Restoration be (Flesh, Vitalism) [Healing, Positive]. Or I could just make the whole line be Vitalism. I don't see a perfect resolution to this.

Or separate repairing ability scores and repairing negative levels into two separate spell chains.


I would point out that adding a Vitalism subschool would decrease the number of spells in Life, not increase it; it would take all of the Inflicts away, though it would leave the rest of the school intact. Also, it would solve the awkwardness of having Circle of Death be (Life Force), but having Undeath to Death be dual-subschool (Life Force, Undeath). Unfortunately, it would also steal several effects from Flesh, which you may not want.

My wording got weird there (my apologies); that portion of the sentence was explaining why I wasn't combining Undeath with Life Force, as my nearest equivalent to Vitalism.


I actually think Astral Projection is the only planar travel effect I wouldn't put in Conjuration, for the simple reason that it doesn't affect your body at all; it really is just your spirit/soul/astral self that travels. Speak with Dead, on the other hand, I agree with. Fixed!

Astral Projection can certainly put a physical body on another plane, with functional physical - and magical - equipment. See also this spell (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Summon_Self_(3.5e_Spell)) and the discussion thereof (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Talk:Summon_Self_(3.5e_Spell)).


If it was, it would supplant Scrying as the tiniest subschool. :smalltongue: I went back and forth on Remove Curse several times; if you think it belongs here, it probably does.

The size of a Curses subschool would depend on what one is counting as a curse.



I think that this will be the test to see if these divisions have succeeded. Different people will always disagree on whether the definitions are the theoretical best ones, but the real test is whether we can consistently assign new spells to the same school/subschools with a particular set of definitions. If people agree, the subschool definitions are good!

When the lists get that far, we will have to come up with a list of spells we both (or, at least GMs willing and able to assign subschools appropriately) have access to.)



ILLUSION
Figments and shadows are no longer inherently unreal. Illusions which can be disbelieved gain the [Unreal] descriptor; any spell with the [Unreal] descriptor can be disbelieved by interaction. All rules baggage associated with disbelieving illusions is now explicitly tied to the [Unreal] descriptor, and any illusion without that descriptor cannot be disbelieved. This clarifies the ambiguity in the original rules; it was explicitly stated that all figments and glamers were "unreal", but many (such as Blur, Invisibility, and so on) could not be disbelieved. Now, Light is simply figment that creates a real effect, while Darkness is a glamer that creates a real effect. This neatly ties the illumination and other sensory manipulation spells to existing subschools, where they fit very nicely, and clarifies to what degree they are real or unreal. Silence and Invisibility are now in the same subschool again, as they should be.

Cool.


Figment: A figment spell creates a sensation out of thin air.
Color Spray, Continual Flame (+), Dancing Lights, Daylight, Faerie Fire, Flare, Ghost Sound, Hypnotic Pattern (+), Illusory Wall, Light, Magic Mouth, Major Image, Message, Minor Image, Mirror Image, Mislead (+), Permanent Image, Persistent Image, Programmed Image, Rainbow Pattern (+), Scintillating Pattern (+), Silent Image, Whispering Wind

I would put making an object look/sound as if it were talking as glamour. Have you added pattern descriptor, with the same purpose as the charm descriptor?


Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even disappear.
Blur, Darkness, Disguise Self, Displacement, False Vision, Hallucinatory Terrain, Illusory Script (+), Invisibility (Greater, Mass, Sphere), Magic Aura, Mirage Arcana, Misdirection, Mislead (+), Pass without Trace (+), Phantom Trap, Screen, Sculpt Sound, Seeming, Silence, Veil, Ventriloquism, Zone of Silence

Surely deeper darkness goes here?


Shadow: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy.
Project Image, Shades, Shadow Body (+), Shadow Conjuration/Evocation (Greater)

Phantom Steed would seem to fit here. Shadow spells in general seem candidates for having multiple schools.


Spells added from other schools: Continual Flame, Dancing Lights, Darkness, Daylight, Faerie Fire, Light, Sculpt Sound

Spells moved to other schools: Dream, Nightmare, Phantasmal Killer, Shadow Walk, Weird

New spells: Shadow Body (+)

Removed spells: Simulacrum



Quite solid. Didn't have much to say on this one.

[Vadskye]

Have you been reading my signature, by any chance?
Gosh, that sure is an amazing coincidence that I happened to use the exact same wording!


No such reference in the 3.0 SRD (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html), 2nd edition AD&D, 1st edition AD&D, or the spells first appearance in the first issue of The Dragon (as Dragon Magazine was called back then). So far as I can determine, the description to color spray has never mentioned light.
I don't have the older sources on hand, but I know that in 2e it was in the "Alteration" school, and it caused a "vivid, fan-shaped spray of clashing colors" to appear. While it does not use the word "light" (which is why I believe the concept was inadvertently dropped), it was definitely not mind-affecting or purely mental. I can think of no other good way to interpret the spell, keeping in mind that 2e spell descriptions were not excessively precise about such matters.

With that said, I have lost track of why we were arguing about this.


Possibly Transmutation (Vegetation).
It could work. It still lacks the punch of a really good subschool name, but I lack any signfiicantly better ideas.


There were also death knell, symbol of death, and wail of the banshee. As for undeath to death, destruction and symbol of death also instantly slay undead.
Death Knell, Symbol of Death, and Wail of the Banshee are all Life for the same reasons as Finger of Death: they destroy a creature' life force without harming its body. Also, Destruction and Symbol of Death definitely do not affect undead. First, they have the [Death] descriptor, which undead are immune to. Second, they allow a Fortitude save and do not affect objects, which means undead are immune for that reason as well.


Since I'm not changing the spell descriptions of the core spells, this may be why I'm reluctant to use negative energy to distinguish subschools.
Definitely. I originally (what, several months ago now?) rejected using positive and negative energy to define a subschool for essentially that reason. That doesn't work as a basis unless you do some significant rewriting.


Or separate repairing ability scores and repairing negative levels into two separate spell chains.
That could work. Though it seems excessively niche to have an entire spell just for removing negative levels. I think I'll just use the dual-subschool awkwardness for now and see if anyone who isn't us cares.


My wording got weird there (my apologies); that portion of the sentence was explaining why I wasn't combining Undeath with Life Force, as my nearest equivalent to Vitalism.
Ah, that makes sense. Carry on.


Astral Projection can certainly put a physical body on another plane, with functional physical - and magical - equipment. See also this spell (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Summon_Self_(3.5e_Spell)) and the discussion thereof (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Talk:Summon_Self_(3.5e_Spell)).
That page appears to be blank? In any event, my objection is not that it can't create a new physical body. It that it doesn't transport your physical body. Perhaps it would be best described as Conjuration/Necromancy (Creation/Soul) [Planar], then - just like Clone.


The size of a Curses subschool would depend on what one is counting as a curse.
My personal sense is that a curse has to be permanent duration and non-dispellable; curses are traditionally difficult to remove. However, this is extremely subjective, and I could see someone creating a full Curse subschool by altering the fluff of existing effects.


When the lists get that far, we will have to come up with a list of spells we both (or, at least GMs willing and able to assign subschools appropriately) have access to.)
Have access to? In terms of noncore books, or in terms of spells that I didn't remove? I hadn't thought about assigning noncore spells into these subschools, but that actually strikes me as a great test of their versatility.


I would put making an object look/sound as if it were talking as glamour. Have you added pattern descriptor, with the same purpose as the charm descriptor?
I went back and forth on Magic Mouth. On yet another reading, I find your argument more persuasive, so I'll switch it over to Glamer.


Surely deeper darkness goes here?
It would - I removed it, though.


Phantom Steed would seem to fit here. Shadow spells in general seem candidates for having multiple schools.
Phantom steed isn't a shadow spell - oh. It should be, shouldn't it? "Quasi-real" is pretty unambiguously the domain of shadow spells. Sounds like Illusion/Transmutation (Imbuement, Shadow) to me.


Quite solid. Didn't have much to say on this one.
Yay.

[Vadskye]

Sorry, Deepbluediver! I got some wires crossed and accidentally left off my reply to you from my post. Here you go.


/shrug
Mist of Fast Healing, then. You're right about repeatable effects, of course, but almost anything with a duration would be manageable, I think.

But overall, yes, it's on my list of things that would be nice, but may not be practical without a case-by-case ruling from the DM.
Makes sense.


I can see how that would be appealing, especially at higher levels.
Personally, I don't really like "toolbox spells" such as Summon Monster or Polymorph, that are really a dozen or more spells in one. I'm probably going to tone down their versatility somewhat, and compensate in other ways, but I'd rather not get into that here because it usually proves....divisive (aka, unpopular).
I hate Summon Monster. I hate it when I have it as a player, I hate it as a DM, I hate it when other players have it. It is way too complex. If you have good ideas on it, let me know.


An admirable goal. If I end up with anything like that, I suspect it will be mostly a matter of coincidence. I've already got enough on my plate.
No doubt.


Yes, I think I will, too. It lets me have different rates of scaling for spells learned at difference levels as well. I was originally just trying to make things more flexible for people picking spells.
I still don't like the Energy Substitution metamagic feat, but I can live with it, or something similar.

Also, a radius of Electric damage is easy- name spells things like Ball Lightning and Power Pulse. It was actually the cone I was worried about for that one. :smallwink:
Heh, good idea. I hadn't thought about electricity cones. Confusing!


So long as the definitions are clear and distinct, I don't mind what method they need to use to get there, but I'll keep it in mind.
Hey, if you can come up with non-causal definitions that are clear and distinct, go for it! I couldn't figure out a way - but that doesn't mean you might not be able to.

[ideasmith]

These comments are now several days and much discussion out of date, so what I thought then might no longer apply, but I'll try to respond as best I can.

I believe what I meant was that having fewer, larger subschools would be easier to arrange than having many very specific subschools. You seem to have bypassed the problem by allowing dual-subschool spells.

I am not seeing your reasoning here. Of course, if this is out of date, that likely doesn't matter.


Lets agree to try an not let ourselves be sidetracked.

Sound and light are plenty real; in the end it comes down to what you want out of the Illusion School. If I want Conjuration or Evocation spells than I'll go to those schools. I don't see any benefit in given weakened versions of those spells to the Illusion school, except to pad out the spell list with things that don't really (IMO) fit in with the rest of the spells. By the same token, I won't be claiming I can manipulate heat and cold to refract light and get a 20% believable Illusion out of the Evocation school.

So yes, I don't think the Shadow subschool should be a thing, and that as dimensional-travel/teleportation, Shadow Walk or its equivalent belongs in Conjuration. You probably disagree though, and that's fine. We can have differences of opinion.

If I was doing the multi-school spell thing, I would certainly be making the entire shadow school multi-spell.


It comes back to what I commented on before- are Illusions light and sound or are they mental-affects? If it's light and sound, then my character can disbelieve the dragon he's seeing is real, but he will still see it.

Most D&D illusions would be niether.


The problem I was referring to was mainly the option to auto-disbelieve all illusions at will, and the fact that a player might risk him being wrong about the dragon whereas a character in that situation might not chance it. It dis-values illusions because frequently everyone knows (or suspects) they aren't real, and act differently than they might otherwise.

3.5 does not allow any such option.


I'm not sure I get exactly what you are saying here.

You seemed to be saying that all the spells in the subschool were overly versatile and stealing the thunder of other schools; I was giving counter-examples.


I think those specific spells (Shadow Walk and Simulacrum) where poorly designed or badly placed from the get-go, so trying to "fix" them will meet with only limited success so long as you remain within the original broken framework.

If any problems you have with these spells can't be fixed by changing the school, something you are notably willing to do, you have yet to make that clear.


Project Image, by contrast, is fine.

Which is odd, since it is solidly a Shadow spell.


Ideasmith
The Locate spells still seem like awareness spells rather than knowledge spells. If you made changes to the descriptions to try to keep the current divisions, it still doesn't seem to match the spell fluff. Not a big deal in the long run though.

I need to work out how Vadskye's dividing these subclasses, examine mine, and decide what I am doing. I have been examining the schools one at a time, starting with Transmutation, and am up to Evocation so far.


You could merge emotion with charm and retain the charm subschool name if you wanted. It's a less descriptive name, but you can resolve those issues in the description. Keeping them separate isn't going to hurt anything though, so whatever.

I hadn't that noticed "keep the existing subschools" was unclear. I apologize for this inclarity. I am putting a high priority on compatibility here. When I decide to make any changes to any subschool, it will be for a much better reason than I have come across. (Except with respect to Compulsion.)


The transmutation changes work well, and removes any lingering concerns over the school.

Thank you.


I don't have the older sources on hand, but I know that in 2e it was in the "Alteration" school, and it caused a "vivid, fan-shaped spray of clashing colors" to appear. While it does not use the word "light" (which is why I believe the concept was inadvertently it was definitely not mind-affecting or purely mental. I can think of no other good way to interpret the spell, keeping in mind that 2e spell descriptions were not excessively precise about such matters.

While color spray does seem to be physical in AD&D, it does not seem to shed light, or be usable to see by.


With that said, I have lost track of why we were arguing about this.

I was nitpicking your examples of illusions that were real in some non-trivial sense.


It could work. It still lacks the punch of a really good subschool name, but I lack any signfiicantly better ideas.

My thesaurus has no better suggestions, so Vegetation it shall be.


Death Knell, Symbol of Death, and Wail of the Banshee are all Life for the same reasons as Finger of Death: they destroy a creature' life force without harming its body.

That makes sense.


Also, Destruction and Symbol of Death definitely do not affect undead. First, they have the [Death] descriptor, which undead are immune to. Second, they allow a Fortitude save and do not affect objects, which means undead are immune for that reason as well.

Good points. Oops.


Definitely. I originally (what, several months ago now?) rejected using positive and negative energy to define a subschool for essentially that reason. That doesn't work as a basis unless you do some significant rewriting.

Since my subschools are for non-rewritten schools and spells, that leaves out negative energy.


That could work. Though it seems excessively niche to have an entire spell just for removing negative levels. I think I'll just use the dual-subschool awkwardness for now and see if anyone who isn't us cares.

You could expand it to cover other negative-energy effects.


That page appears to be blank?

Since the links are working fine for me, I don't know why it isn't showing up on your computer. You might try googling ("summon self" foxwarrior) leaving out the parentheses, trying on a different computer, and/or both. If all that fails, you could look at this similar spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210319)(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210319).


In any event, my objection is not that it can't create a new physical body. It that it doesn't transport your physical body. Perhaps it would be best described as Conjuration/Necromancy (Creation/Soul) [Planar], then - just like Clone.

That makes sense.


My personal sense is that a curse has to be permanent duration and non-dispellable; curses are traditionally difficult to remove. However, this is extremely subjective, and I could see someone creating a full Curse subschool by altering the fluff of existing effects.

Bestow curse, binding, mark of justice, soul bind meet those criteria, plus the additional criteria of affecting unwilling creatures.


Have access to? In terms of noncore books, or in terms of spells that I didn't remove? I hadn't thought about assigning noncore spells into these subschools, but that actually strikes me as a great test of their versatility.

In terms of having a copy, having an internet link to it (if it is on the internet), or otherwise being in a position to read the spells, assign subschools to them, double check as needed, and re-read them during discussions.

Unfortunately, there might not be much overlap between my collection and yours - that seems to happen a lot.


I went back and forth on Magic Mouth. On yet another reading, I find your argument more persuasive, so I'll switch it over to Glamer.

It might also be Figment, but there is definitely a glamer component there.


It would - I removed it, though.

Oh, so you did.


EVOCATION
A number of changes, but they all rely on shuffling spells between schools, so not necessarily relevant to you. Invocation was renamed to Channeling to avoid confusion with the warlock-style "invocation" concept, which appears more in my system than in core. You may want to stick with Invocation if you prefer the name. Illumination and its effects were moved to Illusion (Modulation), but that's not relevant to a core-based distribution. For your purposes, Illumination works perfectly fine as an Evocation school. Likewise, Control was expanded to include some of the Transmutation (Manipulation) effects.

Energy: An energy spell creates or manipulates energy, such as fire or electricity.
Burning Hands, Call Lightning (Storm), Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold (Lesser/Greater), Delayed Blast Fireball, Energy Conversion (+), Fire Shield (+), Fire Seeds (+), Fire Storm, Fireball, Fire Trap (+), Flame Strike, Flame Weapon, Flaming Sphere, Freezing Sphere, Heat Metal, Ice Storm (+), Incendiary Cloud (+), Lightning Bolt, Meteor Swarm, Polar Ray, Ray of Frost, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Shocking Grasp, Shout (Greater), Sound Burst, Storm of Vengeance(+), Sympathetic Vibration, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice (+)

Channeling: A channeling spell channels divine or other power.
Align Weapon (+), Atonement, Blasphemy, Bless Water (+), Bless Weapon (+), Chaos Hammer, Consecrate, Curse Water (+), Desecrate, Dictum, Hallow, Holy Smite, Holy Sword (+), Holy Word, Miracle, Order's Wrath, Unhallow, Unholy Blight, Word of Chaos

Control: A control spell manipulates forces and moves inanimate objects.
Blade Barrier, Clenched Fist, Control Water, Control Weather, Crushing Hand, Earthquake, Floating Disk, Forcecage, Forceful Hand, Grasping Hand, Gust of Wind, Hold Portal, Interposing Hand, Knock, Levitate, Mage Hand, Mage's Sword, Magic Missile, Open/Close, Prismatic Sphere/Spray/Wall (+), Resilient Sphere, Reverse Gravity, Searing Light, Spiritual Weapon, Storm of Vengeance (+), Sunbeam, Sunburst, Telekinesis, Telekinetic Force/Maneuver/Sphere/Thrust, Tiny Hut, Wall of Force

Spells added from other schools: Align Weapon (+), Atonement, Bless Water (+), Bless Weapon (+), Control Weather, Curse Water (+), Fire Seeds (+), Fire Trap (+), Hold Portal, Incendiary Cloud (+), Knock, Levitate, Mage Hand, Open/Close, Prismatic Sphere (+), Prismatic Wall (+), Reverse Gravity, Storm of Vengeance (+), Telekinesis

Spells moved to other schools: Continual Flame, Dancing Lights, Darkness, Daylight, Faerie Fire, Invisibility Purge, Light, Sending

New spells: Cone of Cold (Lesser/Greater only), Energy Conversion (+), Flame Weapon (merged from Flame Blade and Produce Flame), Telekinetic Force/Maneuver/Thrust

Removed spells: Deeper Darkness, Flame Blade, Helping Hand, Imbue with Spell Ability, Produce Flame, Whirlwind

Another solid one.

What happened to Wind Wall?

Why remove Chill Metal while leaving Heat Metal?

On my own subschools, I am thinking of moving the sonic effects from Energy to a renamed Illumination. Any opinions?

[Vadskye]

If I was doing the multi-school spell thing, I would certainly be making the entire shadow school multi-spell.
What, with Shadow Evocation as Evocation/Shadow? I can see the logic - but at the same time, it sort of goes against the theme of the shadow spells being able to partially replicate things you wouldn't otherwise be able to do.


While color spray does seem to be physical in AD&D, it does not seem to shed light, or be usable to see by.

I was nitpicking your examples of illusions that were real in some non-trivial sense.
Ahh, that makes sense. I will accept that Color Spray is a bit of a bizarre case, given that it went from being completely real to being a mind-effecting illusion between editions. I still maintain that illusions can be real in a non-trivial sense.


You could expand it to cover other negative-energy effects.
I could - but after I refluffed spells like Waves of Exhaustion, there just aren't many "negative energy effects" to remove.


Since the links are working fine for me, I don't know why it isn't showing up on your computer. You might try googling ("summon self" foxwarrior) leaving out the parentheses, trying on a different computer, and/or both. If all that fails, you could look at this similar spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210319)(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210319).
Haha. That's a creative spell. It's playing really fast and loose with definitions, though. Summoning spells bring "manifestations of" creatures, not the actual creatures; that's what distinguishes it from Calling (which I removed) and Teleportation. It's ambiguous what happens to the original creature, but it wouldn't work the way the spell wants; it seems to veer arbitrarily between acting like a summoning and acting like a teleportation, depending on which interpretation is more convenient.


Bestow curse, binding, mark of justice, soul bind meet those criteria, plus the additional criteria of affecting unwilling creatures.
Well, if we go by those standards alone, Temporal Stasis would qualify too. I think it also needs to feel like a curse, which Binding, Soul Bind, and Temporal Stasis definitely don't to me. I'm not sure what exactly "feeling like a curse" entails, but I think it has to be a supernatural and formless baleful effect. Or something.


In terms of having a copy, having an internet link to it (if it is on the internet), or otherwise being in a position to read the spells, assign subschools to them, double check as needed, and re-read them during discussions.

Unfortunately, there might not be much overlap between my collection and yours - that seems to happen a lot.
Oh, in that case, I have access to all the books that are likely to be relevant; the Completes, the Races, the books devoted to creature types, and most campaign settings other than Eberron and Faerun. Oh, and the Spell Compendium, which is fantastic for this purpose. Book access shouldn't be a problem for me.


It might also be Figment, but there is definitely a glamer component there.
I'll try it as Glamer and see if it feels weird.


Another solid one.
Thanks.


What happened to Wind Wall?
Removed - I'll add that to the removed list.


Why remove Chill Metal while leaving Heat Metal?
Once I find a good name, I plan on making them both one spell, like I did with Transmute Flesh and Stone. They are too similar to justify having separate spells, I think.


On my own subschools, I am thinking of moving the sonic effects from Energy to a renamed Illumination. Any opinions?
Sonic energy is... weird in core. On the one hand, [Sonic] spells are clearly defined as using intense vibrational energy, not mere sound (as spells like Sympathetic Vibration and the "sonic damage" concept demonstrate). On the other hand, [Sonic] spells are clearly defined as mere sound, not intense vibration (as spells like Animal Trance and Enthrall demonstrate).

I think using the same word for totally distinct concepts is stupid; I renamed the [Sonic] descriptor as used with Animal Trance and Enthrall to [Sound-Dependent], mirroring the [Language-Dependent] construction. Since these are just descriptors, you might be willing to do that. Either way, my advice would be to leave "sonic energy" spells in the (Energy) subschool, but moving the "sound dependent" spells to the (Sensation) subschool or whatever you decide for light+sound effects. (Relatedly, I allow Silence to protect from [Sound-Dependent] effects, but not from [Sonic] effects; those are too powerful for a mere illusion to mitigate.)

[ideasmith]

What, with Shadow Evocation as Evocation/Shadow? I can see the logic - but at the same time, it sort of goes against the theme of the shadow spells being able to partially replicate things you wouldn't otherwise be able to do.

True.


Ahh, that makes sense. I will accept that Color Spray is a bit of a bizarre case, given that it went from being completely real to being a mind-effecting illusion between editions. I still maintain that illusions can be real in a non-trivial sense.

I was nitpicking the list, not expressing dissagreement with the basic concept. (And looking at the original Dragon version, I think Color Spray started out as a mind-affecting illusion.)


I could - but after I refluffed spells like Waves of Exhaustion, there just aren't many "negative energy effects" to remove.

Well, it was a thought.


Haha. That's a creative spell. It's playing really fast and loose with definitions, though. Summoning spells bring "manifestations of" creatures, not the actual creatures; that's what distinguishes it from Calling (which I removed) and Teleportation. It's ambiguous what happens to the original creature, but it wouldn't work the way the spell wants; it seems to veer arbitrarily between acting like a summoning and acting like a teleportation, depending on which interpretation is more convenient.

That is not what the SRD says:


Summoning

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

The PH says the same word for word. Nothing about "'manifestations of' creatures".


Well, if we go by those standards alone, Temporal Stasis would qualify too. I think it also needs to feel like a curse, which Binding, Soul Bind, and Temporal Stasis definitely don't to me. I'm not sure what exactly "feeling like a curse" entails, but I think it has to be a supernatural and formless baleful effect. Or something.

Temporal Stasis can be dispelled. All three feel curse-ey to me, but that is of course subjective.


Oh, in that case, I have access to all the books that are likely to be relevant; the Completes, the Races, the books devoted to creature types, and most campaign settings other than Eberron and Faerun. Oh, and the Spell Compendium, which is fantastic for this purpose. Book access shouldn't be a problem for me.

I don't have any of these books. My 3.5 collection is less than 1% WotC.



Thanks.

You are welcome.


Once I find a good name, I plan on making them both one spell, like I did with Transmute Flesh and Stone. They are too similar to justify having separate spells, I think.

Whereas I think too differnent to be the same spell. But then I think wish should be split into two spells.


Sonic energy is... weird in core. On the one hand, [Sonic] spells are clearly defined as using intense vibrational energy, not mere sound (as spells like Sympathetic Vibration and the "sonic damage" concept demonstrate). On the other hand, [Sonic] spells are clearly defined as mere sound, not intense vibration (as spells like Animal Trance and Enthrall demonstrate).

Sound and vibration are more closely related than fire and heat. If Heat Metal can be a [fire] spell, why not Sympathetic Vibration as a [sonic] spell?


I think using the same word for totally distinct concepts is stupid; I renamed the [Sonic] descriptor as used with Animal Trance and Enthrall to [Sound-Dependent], mirroring the [Language-Dependent] construction. Since these are just descriptors, you might be willing to do that. Either way, my advice would be to leave "sonic energy" spells in the (Energy) subschool, but moving the "sound dependent" spells to the (Sensation) subschool or whatever you decide for light+sound effects. (Relatedly, I allow Silence to protect from [Sound-Dependent] effects, but not from [Sonic] effects; those are too powerful for a mere illusion to mitigate.)

Splitting the effects you want illusion to be able to mitigate from the ones you don't makes good sense. That sort of thing is what descriptors are for.

[Deepbluediver]

I hate Summon Monster. I hate it when I have it as a player, I hate it as a DM, I hate it when other players have it. It is way too complex. If you have good ideas on it, let me know.

I don't know about GOOD ideas; I (mostly) know what I need to do to get it to play the way I want, but that might not jive with everyone else's expectations for the spell.
Basically, I want to make the spells less fire-and-forget, and more like you are actuallycontrolling a magical construct or the like.
Overall, I want to establish one rule that dictates how any kind of secondary PC-controlled creature functions, including summoned creatures, undead creations, animal companions, familiars, mind-controlled enemies, etc. It will most likely be something like "Control 1 creature as a Move Action, 2 as a Standard, 3 as a Full-round. In any round the creature doesn't receive an order it doesn't act".

Some types, like animal companions, may have a default "defense mode" or certain exemptions for when they don't get an order, but overall the goal is to make it feel more like you are actively controlling creatures, and less like you summon up some other PCs and then return to being a mobile artillery platform.

That first part is clearly a nerf, but overall I want to nerf magic a bit, so I don't really mind. The next change was something that I was HOPING would be more of a shift sideways (neither more nor less powerful).
Basically, I want to limit each version of the spell known or prepared to only being able to summon a single creature. So Summon Monster- Fiendish Squid and Summon Monster- Fiendish Wolf count as separate spells in most cases. In exchange, the duration would increase from 1 round/level to 1 minute/level.
The effect would be, I hope, to make them a little less useful in combat, but easier to use as in utility-capacity; scouting, distractions, trap-triggers, mounts or other movement-enhancers, etc.

What I got in the way of feedback was that most people thought that only being able to learn or prepare one version of the spell at a time would make it useless, or at least undesirable (particularly for spontaneous casters). So what I think I'm going to need to do is rejigger the lists a little bit to improve the options available.

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286072) has some of the discussion on the aforementioned ideas, but it's fallen into the graveyard so don't post anything there.

Ahh, that makes sense. I will accept that Color Spray is a bit of a bizarre case, given that it went from being completely real to being a mind-effecting illusion between editions. I still maintain that illusions can be real in a non-trivial sense.

And looking at the original Dragon version, I think Color Spray started out as a mind-affecting illusion.

I've had multiple debates about whether or not mind-affecting spells should affect psuedo-intelligent but not free willed creatures (mainly undead and constructs), because it always struck me as odd that something with the ability to see, hear, and process information would be totally immune to things with the [Mind-Affecting]. For most of the illusions, I'd probably just yank the "Mind-affecting" tag entirely, with the explanation that a robot golem that senses light and sound can be overwhelmed and and shut down in the same way a human can.

But that's mostly just me.


Well, if we go by those standards alone, Temporal Stasis would qualify too. I think it also needs to feel like a curse, which Binding, Soul Bind, and Temporal Stasis definitely don't to me. I'm not sure what exactly "feeling like a curse" entails, but I think it has to be a supernatural and formless baleful effect. Or something.

Temporal Stasis can be dispelled. All three feel curse-ey to me, but that is of course subjective.

I've been looking for some better ideas for curses; I consider the "penalty to stats or saves" to be boring; at the very least I would want something called "Curse of Weakness" which affects Str and Con, maybe Dex. Also, the "invent your own curse but not any more powerful" thing can be very difficult to judge when the player wants to get creative.
Another potential candidate was "Curse of Unluck"- every time you would roll a d20, roll two instead and take the lesser value.

Maybe curses should be there own seperate sub-type of magic, and spread around to different schools depending on what exactly they do. Permanent and not removable with most of the normal fixes, or something like that.
Just brainstorming here.


Once I find a good name, I plan on making them both one spell, like I did with Transmute Flesh and Stone. They are too similar to justify having separate spells, I think.

I made Transmute Rock and Mud one spell; I didn't check to see if you did the same, though it seems likely. Its a good idea to do the same thing with Heat/Chill metal, though I was wondering if they should go (at least in my version of things) in Evocation, because they seem to be reliant on energy more than matter.

Also, Flesh-to-Stone aka Turn-into-a-statue sounds a lot like a curse to me. I'd probably scrap Stone-to-Flesh entirely and just leave the other spell reversible by Break Enchantment or Remove Curse or whatever else we have.


But then I think wish should be split into two spells.

Personally, I just hate Wish, and would do almost anything to see it removed. It's like saying "hmm, we don't think 100+ pages of spells is enough, so here's one that lets you cast any other spell in its place, or invent your own!"
For me it highlights the biggest imbalances in the magic-system: permanent buffs, excessive versatility for little or no cost, and nice-things that melee can't have.
But I'd be interested in seeing how you split it up.


Sound and vibration are more closely related than fire and heat. If Heat Metal can be a [fire] spell, why not Sympathetic Vibration as a [sonic] spell?
Makes sense to me.
And I'm not quite sold on the [Sound-dependent] tag yet, but one thing I was considering was a [Life-dependent] or [Life-affecting] tag, so that rather than restricting some spells by creature type or based on energy, I can allow certain spells to affect creatures like Vampires and Warforged that seem half-alive.



Edit: Missed a post I wanted to reply too.


Most D&D illusions would be neither.
What are they, then? :smallconfused:


You seemed to be saying that all the spells in the subschool were overly versatile and stealing the thunder of other schools; I was giving counter-examples.

That's not what I was saying. Its not about individual spells, but about the subschool as a whole. It doesn't fit with the feeling or the definition of an illusion. Those problematic spells aren't "Fake (aka not-real)" or "Part-real"; they are 100% real just with lower numbers.

I still fail to see how you think that making one school for energy-effects (Evocation), then giving damaging-energy effects to other schools (Shadow-evocation, Orb of whatever, etc) isn't a problem.

If casters where limited to a single school, then yes I'd vote heavily in favor of more overlap, but for the classes where it matters, they have access to multiple, frequently all, schools.


*regarding Project Image* Which is odd, since it is solidly a Shadow spell.

I don't have a problem with that particular spell; under my definition of manipulating Light and Sound, it seems like a perfectly reasonable Illusion.

I haven't hashed out exactly what the Subschools for Illusion will be, possibly something like:
Figment- affects the way the target of the spell views other creatures or objects
Glamer- affects the way other creatures view the target of the spell
TBA- something to include the more straightforward [Light] and [Sound] spells (Sunburst, Shout, etc).

[ideasmith]

ENCHANTMENT
Very similar to your schools. I replaced Charm with Beguilement and added a couple of effects to it. The additions only make sense as dual-school spells, so you're fine sticking with Charm. Sleep was moved to Compulsion because it was nerfed; it now fills creatures with a magical compulsion to sleep instead of putting them to sleep instantly, making it no longer an instant-kill in combat.

Looks like you have now combined Beguilement with Emotion.


Compulsion: A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in a certain way. Some compulsion spells determine the subject’s actions or the effects on the subject, some compulsion spells allow you to determine the subject’s actions when you cast the spell, and others give you ongoing control over the subject.
Animal Messenger, Command (Greater), Confusion (Mass), Daze, Deep Slumber, Demand (+), Dominate Monster, Dominate Person, Geas/Quest (Lesser), Hideous Laughter, Hypnotic Pattern (+), Illusory Script (+), Insanity, Irresistible Dance, Power Word Command, Rainbow Pattern (+), Scintillating Pattern (+), Sleep, Song of Discord, Suggestion (Mass), Symbol of Insanity, Zone of Truth

Daze is listed both here and under removed spells.
Shouldn't Antipathy and Sympathy be here as well as under emotion?


Emotion: An emotion spell influences the subject's emotions.
Aid, Antipathy, Attraction, Aversion, Bane, Bless, Calm Emotions, Cause Fear, Charm Monster (Mass), Charm Person (Mass), Crushing Despair, Good Hope, Fear, Heroes' Feast (+), Heroism (Greater), Prayer, Rage, Remove Fear, Symbol of Fear, Symbol of Persuasion, Sympathy

Fascination being an emotion, shouldn't Hypnotic Pattern and Rainbow Pattern be here?
Might Glibness belong here?


Inhibition: An inhibition spell impedes the functioning of the target's mind, typically preventing the target from acting.
Binding, Deep Slumber, Feeblemind, Hold Monster (Mass), Hold Person (Mass), Lullaby, Mind Fog (+), Power Word Blind, Power Word Stun, Sanctuary (+), Sleep, Symbol of Sleep, Symbol of Stunning, Touch of Idiocy

Should Color Spray be here?
Sanctuary seems more Compulsion.
Should Deep Slumber, Sleep and Symbol of Sleep be here? Are you letting Symbol of Sleep keep its normal effect?


Phantasm:
Dream (+), Nightmare (+), Phantasmal Killer, Weird
Might Modify Memory belong here?


No Subschool:
Glibness (+), Modify MemorySpells added from other schools: Dream (+), Glibness (+), Heroes' Feast (+), Nightmare (+), Phantasmal Killer, Remove Fear, Sanctuary (+), Weird

Spells moved to other schools: Power Word Kill

New spells: Attraction, Aversion, Cause Fear, Confusion (Mass only), Fear

Removed spells: Animal Trance, Charm Animal, Daze, Enthrall, Hypnotism, Confusion (Lesser), Daze Monster



Surely also Calm Animals?


But I'd be interested in seeing how you split it up.

If I was actually splitting it I would separate the 'choose from the list' function from the 'wish for anything, but the DM gets to warp your wish' function.


What are they, then? :smallconfused:

Magic that affects senses. The answer to 'How?' is 'It's magic.'


That's not what I was saying. Its not about individual spells, but about the subschool as a whole. It doesn't fit with the feeling or the definition of an illusion. Those problematic spells aren't "Fake (aka not-real)" or "Part-real"; they are 100% real just with lower numbers.

I am not aware of any lower numbers on the shadow evocation spells. Just an extra saving throw - which is specifically a disbelief save.


I still fail to see how you think that making one school for energy-effects (Evocation), then giving damaging-energy effects to other schools (Shadow-evocation, Orb of whatever, etc) isn't a problem.

Stipulating that it is a problem, I fail to see what makes removing the shadow subschool necessary, or even significantly useful, in solving it. It is not the subschool that inflicts energy damage; it's some of the spells in the subschool.


I don't have a problem with that particular spell; under my definition of manipulating Light and Sound, it seems like a perfectly reasonable Illusion.

How does manipulating light and sound can cause other spells to "originate from the projected image instead of him". Applying metamagic-equivalent to non-illusion spells does not seem to fit your notion of illusion magic, or any other I've seen.

[Vadskye]

I was nitpicking the list, not expressing dissagreement with the basic concept. (And looking at the original Dragon version, I think Color Spray started out as a mind-affecting illusion.)
Got it. And that's interesting - what a weird spell.


The PH says the same word for word. Nothing about "'manifestations of' creatures".
Try reading about ten lines up:

Conjuration
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool)...
That's what I was talking about. Now, admittedly, it could be interpreted otherwise; a good DM would have to decide which interpretation to follow (manifestation vs. original) and stick with it. But Summon Self is trying to use the best of both worlds.


Temporal Stasis can be dispelled. All three feel curse-ey to me, but that is of course subjective.
Oops, so it can. Darn subjective curses. I'm inclined to table this until we have a good definition of "curse".


I don't have any of these books. My 3.5 collection is less than 1% WotC.
And suddenly I understand why you have so many issues finding book overlap. :smalltongue: Unfortunately, my personal collection is entirely WotC...


Whereas I think too differnent to be the same spell. But then I think wish should be split into two spells.
Wish is two spells: Lesser Wish and Wish. :smalltongue: But what's the difference between Heat/Chill metal and hot/cold Fire Shield? It seems like the exact same concept to me.


Splitting the effects you want illusion to be able to mitigate from the ones you don't makes good sense. That sort of thing is what descriptors are for.
Yay, descriptors!


Looks like you have now combined Beguilement with Emotion.
Correct.


Daze is listed both here and under removed spells.
Will be corrected - Daze was removed.


Shouldn't Antipathy and Sympathy be here as well as under emotion?
As originally worded, yes, they would be dual-subschool. I refluffed them slightly to make it clear that they are purely emotional effects.


Fascination being an emotion, shouldn't Hypnotic Pattern and Rainbow Pattern be here?
I considered fascination a compulsion ("compelled to look at something"). I don't think being fascinated necessarily implies a particular emotional state. Obviously a bit subjective, though.


Might Glibness belong here?
I went back and forth on this repeatedly, but I came to the conclusion that not all lies affect emotions, so Glibness shouldn't be an [Emotion] spell; it affects emotions only if the liar is trying to manipulate emotions, which is different.


Should Color Spray be here?[quote]
Color Spray is no longer mind-affecting - it merely overwhelms the senses - so no. As originally worded, it would be dual-school and belong here, yes.

[quote]Sanctuary seems more Compulsion.
That was my first reaction, but when I was studying Sanctuary, it pretty clearly states that they can take any action other than to attack the shielded creature. That's inhibition (you can't do X) instead of compulsion (you must do X).


Should Deep Slumber, Sleep and Symbol of Sleep be here? Are you letting Symbol of Sleep keep its normal effect?
Oops. All of the Sleep spells should be in Compulsion after the nerf (affected creatures are fatigued and compelled to sleep when possible), not Inhibition.


Might Modify Memory belong here?
Ooh, good call. Actually, I just came to a realization about phantasms last night. The solution I found is that phantasms are not inherently mind-affecting. Anything that has perceptions or senses can be affected by a phantasm. However, the tricky part is that the most iconic phantasm, Phantasmal Image, is mind-affecting; it's an Enchantment/Illusion (Emotion, Phantasm) [Mind-Affecting, Unreal] spell, because it kills you with fear. This neatly solves the confusion involving mind-affecting illusions, I think.

So Modify Memory would be Enchantment/Illusion (Phantasm) [Mind-Affecting], and Phantasmal Killer would be Enchantment/Illusion (Emotion, Phantasm) [Fear, Mind-Affecting, Unreal].


Surely also Calm Animals?
I forgot that spell existed. Yes, it has been removed.


If I was actually splitting it I would separate the 'choose from the list' function from the 'wish for anything, but the DM gets to warp your wish' function.
So one spell would be amazingly powerful and the other would be terrifying to use?


Magic that affects senses. The answer to 'How?' is 'It's magic.'
Agreed.


I am not aware of any lower numbers on the shadow evocation spells. Just an extra saving throw - which is specifically a disbelief save.
What about the 20% real (and so on) effects?


How does manipulating light and sound can cause other spells to "originate from the projected image instead of him". Applying metamagic-equivalent to non-illusion spells does not seem to fit your notion of illusion magic, or any other I've seen.
Good point.

And now Deepbluediver!


I don't know about GOOD ideas; I (mostly) know what I need to do to get it to play the way I want, but that might not jive with everyone else's expectations for the spell.
Basically, I want to make the spells less fire-and-forget, and more like you are actuallycontrolling a magical construct or the like.
Overall, I want to establish one rule that dictates how any kind of secondary PC-controlled creature functions, including summoned creatures, undead creations, animal companions, familiars, mind-controlled enemies, etc. It will most likely be something like "Control 1 creature as a Move Action, 2 as a Standard, 3 as a Full-round. In any round the creature doesn't receive an order it doesn't act".

Some types, like animal companions, may have a default "defense mode" or certain exemptions for when they don't get an order, but overall the goal is to make it feel more like you are actively controlling creatures, and less like you summon up some other PCs and then return to being a mobile artillery platform.

That first part is clearly a nerf, but overall I want to nerf magic a bit, so I don't really mind. The next change was something that I was HOPING would be more of a shift sideways (neither more nor less powerful).
Basically, I want to limit each version of the spell known or prepared to only being able to summon a single creature. So Summon Monster- Fiendish Squid and Summon Monster- Fiendish Wolf count as separate spells in most cases. In exchange, the duration would increase from 1 round/level to 1 minute/level.
The effect would be, I hope, to make them a little less useful in combat, but easier to use as in utility-capacity; scouting, distractions, trap-triggers, mounts or other movement-enhancers, etc.

What I got in the way of feedback was that most people thought that only being able to learn or prepare one version of the spell at a time would make it useless, or at least undesirable (particularly for spontaneous casters). So what I think I'm going to need to do is rejigger the lists a little bit to improve the options available.

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286072) has some of the discussion on the aforementioned ideas, but it's fallen into the graveyard so don't post anything there.
Sounds similar to my fix: swift action required to command, and you have a list of summoned monsters "known". When my Spell Reformation goes up, we can compare notes.


I've had multiple debates about whether or not mind-affecting spells should affect psuedo-intelligent but not free willed creatures (mainly undead and constructs), because it always struck me as odd that something with the ability to see, hear, and process information would be totally immune to things with the [Mind-Affecting]. For most of the illusions, I'd probably just yank the "Mind-affecting" tag entirely, with the explanation that a robot golem that senses light and sound can be overwhelmed and and shut down in the same way a human can.

But that's mostly just me.
I actually just recently dealt with this - see my response to ideasmith above. Mind-affecting as a descriptor needs to stay; you can't Charm or Confusion a golem.


I've been looking for some better ideas for curses; I consider the "penalty to stats or saves" to be boring; at the very least I would want something called "Curse of Weakness" which affects Str and Con, maybe Dex. Also, the "invent your own curse but not any more powerful" thing can be very difficult to judge when the player wants to get creative.
Another potential candidate was "Curse of Unluck"- every time you would roll a d20, roll two instead and take the lesser value.

Maybe curses should be there own seperate sub-type of magic, and spread around to different schools depending on what exactly they do. Permanent and not removable with most of the normal fixes, or something like that.
Just brainstorming here.
I'll leave this alone in the interests of time. I have too many things to fix to worry about creating a bunch of new spells unless they fix holes in the system - but building more "curse" spells is an idea with promise. I left Curse as a descriptor in my system to make it compatible with future development in this area.


I made Transmute Rock and Mud one spell; I didn't check to see if you did the same, though it seems likely. Its a good idea to do the same thing with Heat/Chill metal, though I was wondering if they should go (at least in my version of things) in Evocation, because they seem to be reliant on energy more than matter.

Also, Flesh-to-Stone aka Turn-into-a-statue sounds a lot like a curse to me. I'd probably scrap Stone-to-Flesh entirely and just leave the other spell reversible by Break Enchantment or Remove Curse or whatever else we have.
I actually removed Transmute Rock and Mud, but if I kept it, it would have been one spell. And yes, Heat Metal is Evocation in my system.


Personally, I just hate Wish, and would do almost anything to see it removed. It's like saying "hmm, we don't think 100+ pages of spells is enough, so here's one that lets you cast any other spell in its place, or invent your own!"
For me it highlights the biggest imbalances in the magic-system: permanent buffs, excessive versatility for little or no cost, and nice-things that melee can't have.
But I'd be interested in seeing how you split it up.
I think it's too iconic to throw out. I just added a high DC Wisdom check to avoid getting the "genie screwing you over by reinterpreting your Wish" effect.


Makes sense to me.
And I'm not quite sold on the [Sound-dependent] tag yet, but one thing I was considering was a [Life-dependent] or [Life-affecting] tag, so that rather than restricting some spells by creature type or based on energy, I can allow certain spells to affect creatures like Vampires and Warforged that seem half-alive.
You don't need that descriptor to get that effect (just give Vampires the special ability that they are treated as living creatures for the purposes of spells), but that descriptor could have use. Maybe. Not sure how I feel about it.

[DragGon7601]

Wow, reading (or rather skimming) this has made me realise I have a big task ahead of me if I want to split the spells up like I want to. I had planed on using a set up like Arcana evolved, where spells were split up into simple, complex and exotic. The idea being that wizards would be able to use all schools but they would have to spend feats to open up the more powerful spells. The first step would be splitting the spells into similar effects much like sub-schooling does. So I hope you guys post your finished list, they will more likely be a better starting place than the standard 3.X/PF lists.

The only thing that I have seen that I wanted to put my 2cp in for was this:

There is no reason that a character who is capable filling a room with light should necessarily be able to fill a room with darkness. It creates all sorts of fluff problems: why is my Sun domain cleric who worships the bright light of day really good at making things dark? Why is my pyromanic sorcerer who loves destruction necessarily good at protecting his allies? I don't like it. Better to keep opposites very separate.

Why a Sun cleric could be good at making darkness:
"Oww God of all that is bright and light; Take from these sinners your grand blessing so that I may smite them in your name!"

As for why a pyromaniac could be good at protecting things I point at ERA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosive_reactive_armour#Explosive_reactive_armou r) tank armour... You like destroying things, this includes the things your enemies are using to harm your friends!

I'm not saying you were wrong, magic can work differently between worlds. Each to his own. I'm just sharing my thoughts I got by thinking out side the box, in hopes that they might inspire you in some way.

Anyway keep up the good work, you can do it! :smallsmile:

[Deepbluediver]

Magic that affects senses. The answer to 'How?' is 'It's magic.'
Without a real explanation it still feels a lot like Mind-Affecting IMO, but if that's what you want to do with it, then fine. I feel its more straightforward to describe it as light-and-sound manipulation, and anything with eyes and ears is susceptible, but it's a matter of taste at this point, I think.


I am not aware of any lower numbers on the shadow evocation spells. Just an extra saving throw - which is specifically a disbelief save.
I just can't quite wrap my head around how you can "disbelieve" a Fireball or Darkness or Wall of Force spell. Or how "affecting the senses" makes you take real fire damage or generates any of the other effects.


Stipulating that it is a problem, I fail to see what makes removing the shadow subschool necessary, or even significantly useful, in solving it. It is not the subschool that inflicts energy damage; it's some of the spells in the subschool.
Ok, that's good point. I still don't like the idea that you can illusions to make things that are "part real" or whatever. I want my illusions to have effects that are 100% real, and just different from what you see in other schools.


How does manipulating light and sound can cause other spells to "originate from the projected image instead of him". Applying metamagic-equivalent to non-illusion spells does not seem to fit your notion of illusion magic, or any other I've seen.
Hmm...you're right; I hadn't really paid attention to that part of the spell. As I mentioned to Vadskye earlier though, the ability to launch spells from a point other than yourself can be a useful affect all by itself. Whether it's a Metamagic feat, or a trap spell, or a class feature, I should probably separate that out from the rest of the spell.

And keeping it as a shadow spell seems odd to me, because you can project 100% real, non-illusion spells from it. It might make sense if it only allowed you to use other Illusions, but that limitation is only on spells that self-target.


Sounds similar to my fix: swift action required to command, and you have a list of summoned monsters "known". When my Spell Reformation goes up, we can compare notes.
The reason I opted to make the smallest-division of control a Move Action rather than Swift (at least not without investing in more feats) was because controlling a minion plus casting tends to muck up the action economy. For the rest of it, we'll just have to see. If your creature lists are good, I might steal them. :smalltongue:


I actually just recently dealt with this - see my response to ideasmith above. Mind-affecting as a descriptor needs to stay; you can't Charm or Confusion a golem.
Yeah, but I take the position that I SHOULD be able to charm or confusion an intelligent construct (or undead). When you try to compare humanoids to something like Outsiders, Aberrations, and Elementals, I don't see how some of the mind-affecting-immune types are really that much MORE different.

The tag can stay, just not on all the same spells. Plus, I'd do away with the racial immunities, but that's really starting to get outside the scope of this thread.


I think it's too iconic to throw out. I just added a high DC Wisdom check to avoid getting the "genie screwing you over by reinterpreting your Wish" effect.
I won't say that I have absolutely no interest in things that are "iconic" or have historical significance, but it falls far, FAR below balance and ease of use in my book.

Part of my goal is to not only revise spellcasting but to also balance casters and melee classes (at least better than they where) and I can't do that with things like Wish in play. At least not without nerfing it to the point where it barely resembles the former incarnation.


You don't need that descriptor to get that effect (just give Vampires the special ability that they are treated as living creatures for the purposes of spells), but that descriptor could have use. Maybe. Not sure how I feel about it.
Strictly on a numbers basis, it would be easier to identify those undead that mimic life (like a vampire) rather than those who don't, but I feel it makes for a more robust, less breakable system if the default setting for a creature type is not an exception to most rules.

I'd rather go through the effort of slapping [Mindless] and [Lifeless] tags on most Undead and Constructs and then define exactly what I want out of those descriptors rather than just declare all of them immune to large chunks of the PHB, and then have to go back and specify which ones are un-immune again.

[ideasmith]

Edit: Have revised Divination Subschools in my original post.




DIVINATION
Mostly the same. The Locate Creature/Object spells were moved to Awareness, since they function like a detection spell rather than a knowledge-granting spell. Read magic, analyze dweomer, and Identify moved to Knowledge, since they grant you knowledge of the meaning of the magic rather than merely making you aware of the magic. I didn't realize how few Scrying spells there were until I started making this list...

I do am not clear on how you are dividing Awareness from Knowledge.
If you wish to expand Scrying, the Prying Eyes spells seem to fit conceptually. Some revising of the description would be needed.


Awareness: A awareness spell reveals objects, creatures, or effects within an area. Some awareness spells have cone-shaped areas. These move with you and extend in the direction you look. The cone defines the area that you can examine each round. If you study the same area for multiple rounds, you can often gain additional information, as noted in the descriptive text for the spell.
Analyze Dweomer (+), Arcane Sight (Greater), Darkvision, Detect Animals or Plants, Detect <Alignment>, Detect Poison, Detect Scrying, Detect Secret Doors, Detect Snares and Pits, Detect Thoughts, Detect Thoughts (Greater), Detect Undead, Discern Lies, Farsight, Find Traps, Locate Creature, Locate Entity, Locate Object, Prying Eyes (Greater) (+), See Invisibility, True Seeing

I didn't find Detect Magic, and it seems to go here.
Commune with Nature and Discern Location seem to fit better here than in Knowledge.
Might Alarm go here?


Knowledge: A knowledge spell grants the recipient information. Most knowledge spells give knowledge about the present, but some can reveal information about the future as well.
Analyze Dweomer (+), Augury, Commune, Commune with Nature, Comprehend Languages, Discern Location, Discern Vulnerability, Divination, Find the Path, Foresight, Guidance, Know Direction, Legend Lore, Locate Creature, Locate Object, Moment of Prescience (Lesser/Greater), Object Reading, Precognition (Lesser/Greater), Read Magic, Revelation, Speak with Dead, Telepathic Bond (+), Tongues, True Strike, Vision

I didn't find Identify, and it seems to go here.
Detect Toughts and True Seeing seem to fit better here than in Awareness.
Might Fox's Cunning and Mass Fox's Cunning go here?


Scrying: A scrying spell creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.
Any creature trained in Spellcraft can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Spellcraft check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell. Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked.
Arcane Eye, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Scrying (Greater)

A possible revision if you wish to make Prying Eyes fit:
Scrying: A scrying spell creates an magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor is invisible and has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.Any creature trained in Spellcraft can notice an invisible sensor by making a DC 20 Spellcraft check. An invisible sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell. Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked.


No subschool:
Dream (+), Nightmare (+), Sending, Telepathic Bond (+)

Looking at what these have in common, I think a Communication subschool might be in order. Other spells that might fit are Tongues, Speak with Dead, and Commune. Also, I'm thinking a Communication subschool would help clarify my subschools.


Spells added from other schools: Darkvision, Dream (+), Nightmare (+), Sending

New spells: Discern Vulnerability, Farsight, Locate Entity, Moment of Prescience (Lesser/Greater only), Precognition (Lesser/Greater), Revelation,

Removed spells: Contact Other Plane, Speak with Animals, Speak with Plants, Status, Stone Tell


Whew, analyzing this one was tough. But my own divination subschools should be in better shape after this. No pain, no gain.


Try reading about ten lines up:

That's what I was talking about. Now, admittedly, it could be interpreted otherwise; a good DM would have to decide which interpretation to follow (manifestation vs. original) and stick with it. But Summon Self is trying to use the best of both worlds.

My mistake, the rules for the summoning subschool do indeed mention "manifestations of creatures".

And the spells in question do make assumptions about how such manifestations can work.

However, I do not see that those assumptions contradict either the rules or the dictionary.


Oops, so it can. Darn subjective curses. I'm inclined to table this until we have a good definition of "curse".

Well, it was an idea.


And suddenly I understand why you have so many issues finding book overlap. :smalltongue: Unfortunately, my personal collection is entirely WotC...

Which leaves online spell collections which can be linked to.


Wish is two spells: Lesser Wish and Wish. :smalltongue: But what's the difference between Heat/Chill metal and hot/cold Fire Shield? It seems like the exact same concept to me.

Any why should hot Fire Shield and cold Fire Shield be the same spell?


As originally worded, yes, they would be dual-subschool. I refluffed them slightly to make it clear that they are purely emotional effects.

Could you designate which spells have been revised in ways that affect their school/subschool?


I considered fascination a compulsion ("compelled to look at something"). I don't think being fascinated necessarily implies a particular emotional state. Obviously a bit subjective, though.

The dictionary definition


fas·ci·na·tion (fs-nshn)
n.
1. The capability of eliciting intense interest or of being very attractive.

2. The state of being intensely interested or attracted: listened in fascination.

3. An intensely interesting, attractive quality or trait.

does imply a particular emotional state.


I went back and forth on this repeatedly, but I came to the conclusion that not all lies affect emotions, so Glibness shouldn't be an [Emotion] spell; it affects emotions only if the liar is trying to manipulate emotions, which is different.

Good point.


That was my first reaction, but when I was studying Sanctuary, it pretty clearly states that they can take any action other than to attack the shielded creature. That's inhibition (you can't do X) instead of compulsion (you must do X).

Compulsion spells can force the subject to refrain from doing things, as Command and Confusion both sometimes do.


Ooh, good call. Actually, I just came to a realization about phantasms last night. The solution I found is that phantasms are not inherently mind-affecting. Anything that has perceptions or senses can be affected by a phantasm. However, the tricky part is that the most iconic phantasm, Phantasmal Image, is mind-affecting; it's an Enchantment/Illusion (Emotion, Phantasm) [Mind-Affecting, Unreal] spell, because it kills you with fear. This neatly solves the confusion involving mind-affecting illusions, I think.

So Modify Memory would be Enchantment/Illusion (Phantasm) [Mind-Affecting], and Phantasmal Killer would be Enchantment/Illusion (Emotion, Phantasm) [Fear, Mind-Affecting, Unreal].

I'm not clear on why any of the phantasms wouldn't be [mind-affecting].


So one spell would be amazingly powerful and the other would be terrifying to use?

Neither spell would be any more powerful than the standard 3.5 version, and other one would be usable for granting wishes to NPCs, with the grantee taking the risks.


What about the 20% real (and so on) effects?

The effects of making a saving throw range from 0% to 50%. 20% is near the middle of that range.


Without a real explanation it still feels a lot like Mind-Affecting IMO, but if that's what you want to do with it, then fine. I feel its more straightforward to describe it as light-and-sound manipulation, and anything with eyes and ears is susceptible, but it's a matter of taste at this point, I think.

If I were creating a new spell system from scratch, it might well be more straitforward. At this point I'm describing an already existing system.


I just can't quite wrap my head around how you can "disbelieve" a Fireball or Darkness or Wall of Force spell. Or how "affecting the senses" makes you take real fire damage or generates any of the other effects.

You can't, and that's not what's happening when you disbelieve a shadow spell. Disbelief negates the Illusion portion of the spell, leaving the Conjuration/Evocation/whatever portion of the spell alone.


Ok, that's good point. I still don't like the idea that you can illusions to make things that are "part real" or whatever. I want my illusions to have effects that are 100% real, and just different from what you see in other schools.

That's because you want every spell in a given school to only have that school's effects. As distinct from the system I am working with, in which spells with multiple effects are assigned according to the primary effect(s). (With stretch as to what counts as 'primary'.)


Hmm...you're right; I hadn't really paid attention to that part of the spell. As I mentioned to Vadskye earlier though, the ability to launch spells from a point other than yourself can be a useful affect all by itself. Whether it's a Metamagic feat, or a trap spell, or a class feature, I should probably separate that out from the rest of the spell.

That's a cool spell idea.


And keeping it as a shadow spell seems odd to me, because you can project 100% real, non-illusion spells from it. It might make sense if it only allowed you to use other Illusions, but that limitation is only on spells that self-target.

The projected image is the primary effect. The Divination and ?Evocation? are secondary effects.

[Deepbluediver]

If I were creating a new spell system from scratch, it might well be more straitforward. At this point I'm describing an already existing system.
....
That's because you want every spell in a given school to only have that school's effects. As distinct from the system I am working with, in which spells with multiple effects are assigned according to the primary effect(s). (With stretch as to what counts as 'primary'.)

It seems to me like you are putting in a lot of effort to only fix things half-way, but alright, if that's what makes you happy.


You can't, and that's not what's happening when you disbelieve a shadow spell. Disbelief negates the Illusion portion of the spell, leaving the Conjuration/Evocation/whatever portion of the spell alone.
I'm still confused as to how this is supposed to work; is the illusion portion of the spell multiplying the evocation effect?
If it's an illusion, why does it deal real damage at all?
If it's summoned energy, why can you disbelieve any of it?


The projected image is the primary effect. The Divination and Evocation are secondary effects.
Alright, I think I get it now, thank you.
It took me a while to wrap my head around because, as I've mentioned, I don't really agree with the whole "part-real" thing.

[Vadskye]

DragGon:

Wow, reading (or rather skimming) this has made me realise I have a big task ahead of me if I want to split the spells up like I want to. I had planed on using a set up like Arcana evolved, where spells were split up into simple, complex and exotic. The idea being that wizards would be able to use all schools but they would have to spend feats to open up the more powerful spells. The first step would be splitting the spells into similar effects much like sub-schooling does. So I hope you guys post your finished list, they will more likely be a better starting place than the standard 3.X/PF lists.
I think that both ideasmith and I will post our completed lists when we are done. They serve different purposes (mine assumes a number of mechanical and fluff changes to the core spells, and his does not), so use the one that that suits your needs better!


Why a Sun cleric could be good at making darkness:
"Oww God of all that is bright and light; Take from these sinners your grand blessing so that I may smite them in your name!"

As for why a pyromaniac could be good at protecting things I point at ERA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosive_reactive_armour#Explosive_reactive_armou r) tank armour... You like destroying things, this includes the things your enemies are using to harm your friends!
Both of these make sense as options. However, I don't think they should be granted automatically. Fortunately, neither does Deepbluediver; that was juts a miscommunication.


I'm not saying you were wrong, magic can work differently between worlds. Each to his own. I'm just sharing my thoughts I got by thinking out side the box, in hopes that they might inspire you in some way.

Anyway keep up the good work, you can do it! :smallsmile:
Thanks! :smallsmile: Outside feedback is always appreciated.
Deepbluediver:

The reason I opted to make the smallest-division of control a Move Action rather than Swift (at least not without investing in more feats) was because controlling a minion plus casting tends to muck up the action economy. For the rest of it, we'll just have to see. If your creature lists are good, I might steal them. :smalltongue:
I can understand that. I place a high priority on consistency and not surprising players, though. Since "controlling or directing a spell" is a swift action in general in my system, I keep it the same for summons.


Yeah, but I take the position that I SHOULD be able to charm or confusion an intelligent construct (or undead). When you try to compare humanoids to something like Outsiders, Aberrations, and Elementals, I don't see how some of the mind-affecting-immune types are really that much MORE different.

The tag can stay, just not on all the same spells. Plus, I'd do away with the racial immunities, but that's really starting to get outside the scope of this thread.
Definitely starting to go outside the scope of the thread. :smalltongue: I am sure we could have a lovely discussion on the implications of casting charm monster[i] on a golem, but not right now.


I won't say that I have absolutely no interest in things that are "iconic" or have historical significance, but it falls far, FAR below balance and ease of use in my book.

Part of my goal is to not only revise spellcasting but to also balance casters and melee classes (at least better than they where) and I can't do that with things like [I]Wish in play. At least not without nerfing it to the point where it barely resembles the former incarnation.
Honestly, you're completely right. I have killed far more sacred cows than Wish in the name of playability and balance. For some reason, I have a particular fondness for the spell that I just can't shake.


Strictly on a numbers basis, it would be easier to identify those undead that mimic life (like a vampire) rather than those who don't, but I feel it makes for a more robust, less breakable system if the default setting for a creature type is not an exception to most rules.

I'd rather go through the effort of slapping [Mindless] and [Lifeless] tags on most Undead and Constructs and then define exactly what I want out of those descriptors rather than just declare all of them immune to large chunks of the PHB.
This sounds like six of one vs. half a dozen of the other; it's not a balance or breakability concern if the outcome is mechanically identical either way, it's a fluff and system design concern. And I think I prefer setting undead thematically apart from other kinds of creatures, so they get the immunity to mind-affecting tag by default.
ideasmith:

I do am not clear on how you are dividing Awareness from Knowledge.
Knowledge gives you information in an abstract sense. Location and time are irrelevant; the information is simply granted to you by the power of magic. Awareness is about gaining information about things because they are near you and otherwise detectable. Discern Location is Knowledge because it simply grants the knowledge of the correct location to you. Locate Creature is Awareness because it makes you aware of a creature provided it is nearby.


If you wish to expand Scrying, the Prying Eyes spells seem to fit conceptually. Some revising of the description would be needed.
It's a good fit, but I haven't found a way to rewrite either it or the Scrying description so it fits.

I didn't find Detect Magic, and it seems to go here.
It was removed (bundled into the Spellcraft skill); I'll correct that.
Commune with Nature and Discern Location seem to fit better here than in Knowledge. Commune with Nature should probably be Awareness, you're right - but it's awkward.

Might Alarm go here?
Yes, that would be perfect! Thanks.

I didn't find Identify, and it seems to go here.
Yes, it does. Added.

Detect Toughts and True Seeing seem to fit better here than in Awareness.
See the definition above for why I placed them as I did.

Might Fox's Cunning and Mass Fox's Cunning go here?
Interesting. I think there are many ways of being intelligent, and being knowledgeable is only one of them, so I'd rather keep it in Transmutation. Plus, it was bundled into Totemic Mind.

A possible revision if you wish to make Prying Eyes fit:
Scrying: A scrying spell creates an magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor is invisible and has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.Any creature trained in Spellcraft can notice an invisible sensor by making a DC 20 Spellcraft check. An invisible sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell. Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked.
I can't believe I didn't think of that. Good idea.

Looking at what these have in common, I think a Communication subschool might be in order. Other spells that might fit are Tongues, Speak with Dead, and Commune. Also, I'm thinking a Communication subschool would help clarify my subschools.
That's perfect! I was struggling with those spells - Commune with Nature fits much better here than in Awareness. I'll rewrite my list when I get a chance.

Whew, analyzing this one was tough. But my own divination subschools should be in better shape after this. No pain, no gain.
I particularly liked your ideas here, so I definitely appreciate it.

My mistake, the rules for the summoning subschool do indeed mention "manifestations of creatures".

And the spells in question do make assumptions about how such manifestations can work.

However, I do not see that those assumptions contradict either the rules or the dictionary.
They may not contradict the rules or the dictionary. But it confuses me to no end what happens to you in the 24 hour period where you are reforming. No other mechanic in the game includes the idea of "temporarily ceasing to exist". I feel like that would have bizarre implications for world continuity.

Which leaves online spell collections which can be linked to.
Works for me. I think a substantial part of the Spell Compendium, at least, is found on various sites.

Any why should hot Fire Shield and cold Fire Shield be the same spell?
...
Actually, I'm not sure.

Could you designate which spells have been revised in ways that affect their school/subschool?
That is an excellent idea, and I will do it... when I have time. I've been busy with the Theses and Spell Reformation threads...

The dictionary definition does imply a particular emotional state.
True. But the glossary definition in the PHB makes no mention of it. Directly applying dictionary definitions can get you into trouble when analyzing D&D terminology (what's the "effect" of a spell?), so I try to avoid relying on it.

Compulsion spells can force the subject to refrain from doing things, as Command and Confusion both sometimes do.
Yes, Compulsion can compel the subject to do nothing, but that's not what Sanctuary is doing; it's simply prohibiting a specific action. Sounds like perfect Inhibition to me.

I'm not clear on why any of the phantasms wouldn't be [mind-affecting].
Anything with senses can have those sense manipulated. Phantasms aren't mind-affecting for the same reason that figments aren't mind-affecting; regardless of whether a creature has a mind, it can be forced to perceive certain things.

The confusing part is that all of the phantasm effects in core have mental implications separate from the phantasm itself; Nightmare and Dream require that the creature be asleep, and Phantasmal Killer and Weird have an Enchantment (Emotion) component. However, none of that means that phantasms as a concept must be mind-affecting.

Neither spell would be any more powerful than the standard 3.5 version, and other one would be usable for granting wishes to NPCs, with the grantee taking the risks.
If the second spell is intended for NPCs, I can understand it.

The effects of making a saving throw range from 0% to 50%. 20% is near the middle of that range.
Ah, I see what you mean.

[ideasmith]

CONJURATION
No huge changes from core. Creation is larger than I would like; I'm open to suggestions on how to shrink it.

Come up with some basis for splitting Creation in half?


Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates. If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence. \spell{Acid arrow} is a creation spell.
Acid Arrow (Greater), Acid Fog, Black Tentacles, Cloudkill, Create Food and Water, Create Water, Fog Cloud, Gate (+), Glitterdust, Grease, Ice Storm (+), Incendiary Cloud (+), Mage Armor (Greater), Mage's Faithful Hound, Mage's Magnificent Mansion, Major Creation, Mind Fog (+), Minor Creation, Obscuring Mist, Phantom Steed (+), Phase Door (+), Prying Eyes (Greater) (+), Sea of Fog, Sea of Solid Fog, Secure Shelter, Sepia Snake Sigil (+), Shambler(+), Sleet Storm, Solid Fog, Stinking Cloud, Storm of Vengeance (+), Wall of Ice (+), Wall of Thorns, Web, Unseen Servant

Acid Splash, Heroes Feast, Rope Trick all seem to fit here.
Mage Armor, unless you change what it does, seems to fit better in Abjuration/Shielding.


Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a manifestation of a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, the manifestation disappears. A summoned creature also disappears if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. Because summoning spells do not physically transport the actual creature or object, even if the manifestation is injured or destroyed, the original is unharmed. However, it takes 24 hours for the manifestation to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again. Most summoning spells, including the summon monster and summon nature's ally spells, will automatically summon a different creature of the same type should this occur.
Creeping Doom, Elemental Swarm, Insect Plague, Mount, Stampede (Greater), Summon Instrument, Summon Monster X, Summon Nature's Ally X, Summon Nature's Army

This looks solid.


Translocation: A translocation spell transports one or more creatures or objects a great distance. The most powerful of these spells can cross planar boundaries. Unlike summoning spells, the transportation is (unless otherwise noted) one-way and not dispellable. Many translocation effects involve teleportation.
Banishment (+), Dimension Door (Mass), Dimension Slide, Dismissal (+), Dissipating Touch, Gate (+), Imprisonment, Instant Retrieval, Maze, Phase Door (+), Planar Binding (Lesser/Greater) (+), Plane Shift, Refuge, Retrieve (Greater), Rope Trick (+), Secret Chest, Shadow Walk, Teleport (Greater), Teleport Object, Teleportation Circle, Transport via Plants, Tree Stride, Word of Recall

Blink, Dispel [Alignment], Ethereal Jaunt, Etherealness and Freedom seem to fit here.


Spells added from other schools: Banishment (+), Dismissal (+), Ice Storm (+), Imprisonment, Mind Fog (+), Prying Eyes (Greater) (+), Shadow Walk, Wall of Ice (+)

Spells moved to other schools: Delay Poison, Cure X Wounds (Mass), Inflict X Wounds (Mass), Harm, Heal (Mass), Neutralize Poison, Raise Dead, Regenerate, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Disease, Remove Paralysis, Restoration (Lesser/Greater), Resurrection, Trap the Soul, True Resurrection, Wall of Stone

New spells: Acid Arrow (Greater only), Dimension Door (mass only), Dimension Slide, Dissipating Touch, Mage Armor (Greater only), Sea of Fog, Sea of Solid Fog, Stampede (Greater), Summon Nature's Army

Removed spells: Planar Ally (Lesser/Greater), Summon Swarm, Wall of Iron

Renamed spells: [/spoiler]

I gather that Instant Summons had been renamed Instant Retrieval.


It seems to me like you are putting in a lot of effort to only fix things half-way, but alright, if that's what makes you happy.

My subschools are not intended as a fix, but rather as an expansion.


I'm still confused as to how this is supposed to work; is the illusion portion of the spell multiplying the evocation effect?
If it's an illusion, why does it deal real damage at all?
If it's summoned energy, why can you disbelieve any of it?

That's left for the DM to decide; or not to decide, since it probably won't come up.


Knowledge gives you information in an abstract sense. Location and time are irrelevant; the information is simply granted to you by the power of magic. Awareness is about gaining information about things because they are near you and otherwise detectable. Discern Location is Knowledge because it simply grants the knowledge of the correct location to you. Locate Creature is Awareness because it makes you aware of a creature provided it is nearby.

Ah, got it now.


Yes, that would be perfect! Thanks.

You are welcome.


Interesting. I think there are many ways of being intelligent, and being knowledgeable is only one of them, so I'd rather keep it in Transmutation. Plus, it was bundled into Totemic Mind.

Oops, forgot about Totemic Mind.


I can't believe I didn't think of that. Good idea.

That's perfect! I was struggling with those spells - Commune with Nature fits much better here than in Awareness. I'll rewrite my list when I get a chance.

I particularly liked your ideas here, so I definitely appreciate it.

Thank you.


They may not contradict the rules or the dictionary. But it confuses me to no end what happens to you in the 24 hour period where you are reforming. No other mechanic in the game includes the idea of "temporarily ceasing to exist". I feel like that would have bizarre implications for world continuity.

I'm not sure what those implications would be, and that's what happens to summoned creatures according to the Player's Handbook.


Works for me. I think a substantial part of the Spell Compendium, at least, is found on various sites.

Whereas the sites I have in mind are collections of OGC homebrew spells.


...
Actually, I'm not sure.

I'm not sure either.


That is an excellent idea, and I will do it... when I have time. I've been busy with the Theses and Spell Reformation threads...

Thank you.


True. But the glossary definition in the PHB makes no mention of it. Directly applying dictionary definitions can get you into trouble when analyzing D&D terminology (what's the "effect" of a spell?), so I try to avoid relying on it.

Good Point. I would have made it emotion anyway, since it fits my image of what the spells do, but that is subjective, of course.


Yes, Compulsion can compel the subject to do nothing, but that's not what Sanctuary is doing; it's simply prohibiting a specific action. Sounds like perfect Inhibition to me.

Our versions of Inhibition turn out to be more different than I realized: I see the Inhibition subschool as hindering the mind much as my Impairment subschool impairs the body. Sanctuary appears to be compelling creatures to refrain from doing things.


Anything with senses can have those sense manipulated. Phantasms aren't mind-affecting for the same reason that figments aren't mind-affecting; regardless of whether a creature has a mind, it can be forced to perceive certain things.

I was asking about the individual spells ...


The confusing part is that all of the phantasm effects in core have mental implications separate from the phantasm itself; Nightmare and Dream require that the creature be asleep, and Phantasmal Killer and Weird have an Enchantment (Emotion) component. However, none of that means that phantasms as a concept must be mind-affecting.

...but now realize that you mean the portion which is Illusion, rather than Enchantment. Which raises the question of how they differ from Figments and Glamers, beyond being multiple-school.


If the second spell is intended for NPCs, I can understand it.

The wishes-get-warped bit should be playable, but might be more fun to watch than to have inflicted on one's character.

[ideasmith]

Edit: I have revised the original post.




ABJURATION
Bulwark was renamed to "Interdiction". Effects which negate dimensional travel were moved to Negation. Undetectable Alignment makes more sense in Shielding.

Come to think of it, for my subschools, Dimensional Anchor, Dimensional Lock, and Undetectable Alignment make sense as Bulwark/Negation double-subschool. The latter in Negation rather than Protection since it only protects against magic and such magic-by-another-name stuff as psionics.


Negation only contains spells which actively negate effects; defensive "negation" was too ill-defined as a concept.

I'm not sure why the distinction between 'only affects magic and such' and 'also affects mundane stuff' should be that much harder with defenses than with 'active' negation.


If mind blank is Negation, then logically I would say that protection from energy should also be a negation effect.

I wouldn't, because protection from energy coverage includes mundane energy damage, such as from a lit torch.


But if you move all of the defensive "negation" effects to Negation, it is even more bloated than Shielding, and lacks a strong definition to hold it together. Shielding is still larger than I would prefer, but I don't know a good way to subdivide it further.


Interdiction: An interdiction spell hedges out creatures or forces of an opposing alignment or type.
Antilife Shell, Banishment (+), Cloak of Chaos, Dismissal (+), Dispel <Alignment> (+), Forbiddance (+), Holy Aura, Magic Circle against <Alignment> (+), Planar Binding (Lesser/Greater) (+), Protection from <Alignment>, Shield of Law, Unholy Aura


Negation: A negating spell negates magical effects.
Ablative Shield, Ablative Fortress, Antimagic Field, Break Enchantment, Dispel Magic (Lesser/Greater), Dimensional Anchor (+), Dimensional Lock, Dispel <Alignment> (+), Emancipation, Globe of Invulnerability (Lesser), Invisibility Purge, Mage's Disjunction, Remove Curse, Spelltheft (Lesser/Greater)

No suggestions on these. It does occur to me that I have Freedom misplaced.


Shielding: A shielding spell protects creatures or objects from harm.
Death Ward (Mass) (+), Endure Elements, Energy Conversion, Entropic Shield, Fire Shield (+), Inertial Shield, Mind Blank, Nondetection, Protection from Arrows, Protection from Energy (Greater), Protection from Spells, Repulsion, Resist Energy (Greater), Resistance, Retributive Shield, Sanctuary (+), Sequester (+), Share Pain (Forced, Greater) (+), Shield, Shield of Faith, Shield Other (Greater) (+), Spell Immunity (Greater), Spell Resistance, Spell Turning, Undetectable Alignment

Might Interposing Hand go here?


Warding: A warding spell protects an area or object from intrusion. If one warding spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Spot skill drops by 4. The DC drops by an additional 2 for each additional warding spell beyond the second.
Alarm, Arcane Lock (+), Explosive Runes, Fire Trap (+), Forbiddance (+), Glyph of Warding (Greater), Guards and Wards (+), Mage's Private Sanctum, Sepia Snake Sigil (+)

Might Antipathy, Binding, Faithful Hound, and the various Symbol spells go here?


Spells added from other schools: Fire Shield (+), Invisibility Purge, Planar Binding (Lesser/Greater) (+), Sepia Snake Sigil (+)

Spells moved to other schools: Atonement, Freedom, Hold Portal, Imprisonment, Remove Fear, Stoneskin

New spells: Ablative Ward, Ablative Fortress, Dispel Magic (Lesser), Energy Conversion (+), Inertial Shield, Greater Protection from Energy, Retributive Shield, Resist Energy (Greater only), Share Pain (Greater) (+), Shield Other (Greater only) (+),

Removed spells: Antiplant Shell, Freedom, Freedom of Movement, Repel Metal or Stone, Repel Vermin

Renamed spells: Emancipation (formerly Freedom), Freedom (formerly Freedom of Movement)



Where are Hide From Animals and Hide from Undead?


Websites

While subschooling the spells on 'your' sites is probably more useful for this (on the assumption that more gamers use the Spell Compendium than any given homebrew website), I have linked 'my' sites just in case.

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/3.5e_Spells


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120075


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells


http://nethys.karuikage.net/spellsAZ.htm

[TuggyNE]

Where are Hide From Animals and Hide from Undead?

PHB/SRD, e.g. here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideFromAnimals.htm) and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideFromUndead.htm).

[ideasmith]

PHB/SRD, e.g. here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideFromAnimals.htm) and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideFromUndead.htm).

You missed the context. I wasn't asking where they were in the official rules, I was asking where Vadskye had put them in his listing of how the core spells fit in his house-rule subschools. Which I had just quoted the most likely relevant portion of.

[TuggyNE]

You missed the context. I wasn't asking where they were in the official rules, I was asking where Vadskye had put them in his listing of how the core spells fit in his house-rule subschools. Which I had just quoted the most likely relevant portion of.

Ah, sorry. For whatever reason, that wasn't obvious to me. >_>

[ideasmith]

Ah, sorry. For whatever reason, that wasn't obvious to me. >_>

Apology accepted. This happens to me, too.

[Vadskye]

I'm back! I never forgot this thread, I just got distracted with other projects. No idea whether you're still interested in the thread, ideasmith, but I think you deserve responses either way!

Come up with some basis for splitting Creation in half?
Good idea. After some thought, I think the most logical place to make that split is between creating real, physical objects (Glitterdust, Create Food and Water, Fog Cloud) and creating creatures or other forces that can't simply be called objects (Mage's Faithful Hound, Phantom Steed). There are fairly few spells in the latter category, though, and I'm not sure what I'd call it. So I don't think this is solved yet, and for now I'll just keep Creation as is. It may be a large school, but it also has an oddly large number of conventionally useless spells, so I don't see it as a major issue.

Acid Splash, Heroes Feast, Rope Trick all seem to fit here.
Indeed. Acid Splash was removed; the others should be added.

Mage Armor, unless you change what it does, seems to fit better in Abjuration/Shielding.
I debated over this for quite a while, but I eventually decided that you're right. It's moved.

Blink, Dispel [Alignment], Ethereal Jaunt, Etherealness and Freedom seem to fit here.
I agree with the ethereal spells. Dispel [Alignment] was removed. Why Freedom? It's almost entirely a negation effect that counteracts hostile magic. It's blurring some lines since it can negate effects which involve interplanar travel or other weirdness (Imprisonment, Maze), but it still seems like fairly cookie cutter Abjuration (Negation) to me.

I gather that Instant Summons had been renamed Instant Retrieval.
Indeed - because it's not a summoning effect. Added to the list of renamed spells.

I'm not sure what those implications would be, and that's what happens to summoned creatures according to the Player's Handbook.
Well, they're reforming (whatever that means), which that implies that they have a physical form, as opposed to being completely absent from the multiverse until they pop back into existence.

Whereas the sites I have in mind are collections of OGC homebrew spells.
Works for me. I mean, we're just evaluating subschools, so the balance or world continuity isn't essential (not that WotC is balanced, of course). And third-party spells can often be more creative, so I'd look at anything you linked to.

Our versions of Inhibition turn out to be more different than I realized: I see the Inhibition subschool as hindering the mind much as my Impairment subschool impairs the body. Sanctuary appears to be compelling creatures to refrain from doing things.
Ah, I see the distinction. Sanctuary doesn't inhibit mental ability per se; it's strictly about action, so you could interpret it as Compulsion. I think that both definitions of Inhibition are viable, and I think that we will need to see cases where one clarifies something that would be otherwise confusing. That's where comparing to the other spells you mentioned might come in handy.

I was asking about the individual spells ...

...but now realize that you mean the portion which is Illusion, rather than Enchantment. Which raises the question of how they differ from Figments and Glamers, beyond being multiple-school.
The fundamental distinction is the same as it always has been: Phantasms are a personalized sensation that exists only for the senses of the subject. I added one new Phantasm that isn't mind-affecting, Phantom Maze, to clarify this point: it's a spell that replaces the subject's perceptions with ones appropriate to the Maze spell. An effect like that is only possible with the Phantasm school. Does that help clarify?

The wishes-get-warped bit should be playable, but might be more fun to watch than to have inflicted on one's character.
Makes sense.

Come to think of it, for my subschools, Dimensional Anchor, Dimensional Lock, and Undetectable Alignment make sense as Bulwark/Negation double-subschool. The latter in Negation rather than Protection since it only protects against magic and such magic-by-another-name stuff as psionics.
Why Bulwark for Dimensional Anchor/Lock? I'm not sure what "sorting" is going on with those spells. It seems to be a pretty basic negation spell to me.

I'm not sure why the distinction between 'only affects magic and such' and 'also affects mundane stuff' should be that much harder with defenses than with 'active' negation.

I wouldn't, because protection from energy coverage includes mundane energy damage, such as from a lit torch.
Hm. That's more internally consistent than I gave it credit for at first. I still think you're likely to have problems with spells that bridge the gap between the mundane and the overtly magical, though. Freedom (of Movement) protects from the overtly magical Slow, so it seems like it should be Negation to me. Likewise, Sequester negates divination attempts, so it should be Negation. However, they also both have elements of physical "negation" as well. Maybe dual subschool in your system?

Might Interposing Hand go here?
Whether the hand is defending or attacking, it's still an Evocation (Control) effect. Abjuration needs to have a more unique meaning than just "spells which defend stuff", or else the school definitions will be a mess.

Might Antipathy, Binding, Faithful Hound, and the various Symbol spells go here?
I'd say that Antipathy isn't really a ward in the normal sense; it just makes people not like an area. It feels weird to have Antipathy be Abjuration while Sympathy is pure Enchantment, so I'm leaving it as pure Enchantment. Binding is a really weird spell. I decided that the best way to deal with its "multiple choice" effects would be to label a school and subschool for each unique effect, while making the core spell Abjuration (Interdiction) for lack of any better ideas.
[quote]Where are Hide From Animals and Hide from Undead?
Removed, sorry.

While subschooling the spells on 'your' sites is probably more useful for this (on the assumption that more gamers use the Spell Compendium than any given homebrew website), I have linked 'my' sites just in case.
http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/3.5e_Spells
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120075
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells
http://nethys.karuikage.net/spellsAZ.htm
Looks good. My thought is that (if you're still interested in continuing this thread) we do that testing after we finish going through the core definitions of the schools.

[ideasmith]

Edit: I have now revised my Abjuration and Transmutations subschools, see original post.
Edit: Revised suggested format below.


I'm back! I never forgot this thread, I just got distracted with other projects. No idea whether you're still interested in the thread, ideasmith, but I think you deserve responses either way!

I am still interested.


I agree with the ethereal spells. Dispel [Alignment] was removed. Why Freedom? It's almost entirely a negation effect that counteracts hostile magic. It's blurring some lines since it can negate effects which involve interplanar travel or other weirdness (Imprisonment, Maze), but it still seems like fairly cookie cutter Abjuration (Negation) to me.

Because I forgot that Freedom did things other than negate Imprisonment. Oops.


Well, they're reforming (whatever that means), which that implies that they have a physical form, as opposed to being completely absent from the multiverse until they pop back into existence.

Looking at the wording again, the wording does fit your interpretation better than Foxwarrior's. I should mention that on the discusion page (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Talk:Summon_Self_(3.5e_Spell)), unless you'd rather.


Works for me. I mean, we're just evaluating subschools, so the balance or world continuity isn't essential (not that WotC is balanced, of course). And third-party spells can often be more creative, so I'd look at anything you linked to.

We still have time to decide. I don't really have a strong opinion at this point which links to use.

It does occur to me that a likely format would be:

Description of which spells are subschooled in spoiler.
beginning of spoiler
Name of spell subschooled; subschool(s) using my system; school(s) and subschool (s) using your system
repeat above for each such spell
end of spoiler


Ah, I see the distinction. Sanctuary doesn't inhibit mental ability per se; it's strictly about action, so you could interpret it as Compulsion. I think that both definitions of Inhibition are viable, and I think that we will need to see cases where one clarifies something that would be otherwise confusing. That's where comparing to the other spells you mentioned might come in handy.

Indeed.


The fundamental distinction is the same as it always has been: Phantasms are a personalized sensation that exists only for the senses of the subject. I added one new Phantasm that isn't mind-affecting, Phantom Maze, to clarify this point: it's a spell that replaces the subject's perceptions with ones appropriate to the Maze spell. An effect like that is only possible with the Phantasm school. Does that help clarify?

Yes, it does clarify.


Why Bulwark for Dimensional Anchor/Lock? I'm not sure what "sorting" is going on with those spells. It seems to be a pretty basic negation spell to me.

I was thinking of them as spells that "prevents such sorting". A look at the spells countered has me rethinking that.


Hm. That's more internally consistent than I gave it credit for at first. I still think you're likely to have problems with spells that bridge the gap between the mundane and the overtly magical, though. Freedom (of Movement) protects from the overtly magical Slow, so it seems like it should be Negation to me. Likewise, Sequester negates divination attempts, so it should be Negation. However, they also both have elements of physical "negation" as well. Maybe dual subschool in your system?

Since both Freedom of Movement and Sequester protect from mundane effects, neither is negation.


Whether the hand is defending or attacking, it's still an Evocation (Control) effect. Abjuration needs to have a more unique meaning than just "spells which defend stuff", or else the school definitions will be a mess.


I'd say that Antipathy isn't really a ward in the normal sense; it just makes people not like an area. It feels weird to have Antipathy be Abjuration while Sympathy is pure Enchantment, so I'm leaving it as pure Enchantment. Binding is a really weird spell. I decided that the best way to deal with its "multiple choice" effects would be to label a school and subschool for each unique effect, while making the core spell Abjuration (Interdiction) for lack of any better ideas.

Makes sense.


Looks good. My thought is that (if you're still interested in continuing this thread) we do that testing after we finish going through the core definitions of the schools.

Sounds good. I should mention that the links are most promising first. And that the last three are for Pathfinder which except for polymorph has the same subschools as 3.5.




Animation: An animation spell grants temporary "life" to an affected object.
Animate Objects, Animate Plants, Animate Rope, Changestaff (+), Entangle, Entangling Growth, Liveoak (+), Shambler (+)


Alteration: An alteration spell changes the physical state of anything with a material form.
Arcane Mark, Changestaff (+), Clone (+), Disintegrate, Erase, Fabricate, Fertility/Infertility, Make Whole, Mending, Move Earth, Passwall, Plant Growth, Polymorph Any Object, Purify Food and Drink, Rusting Grasp, Secret Page, Shape Stone, Shape Wood, Shrink Item, Snare, Soften Earth and Stone, Spike Growth, Spike Stones, Transmute Flesh and Stone, Transmute Mud and Rock, Wall of Stone, Warp Wood

Move Earth and Snare would seem to fit better in Animation than Alteration.


Augment: An augment spell enhances the existing physical or mental abilities of an object or creature.
Barkskin, Combat Transformation, Divine Favor, Divine Power, Expeditious Retreat, Glibness (+), Jump, Longstrider, Ironwood, Magic Fang (Greater), Magic Vestment, Magic Weapon (Greater), Righteous Might (+), Shillelagh, Stoneskin, Totemic Power (Mass), Totemic Mind (Mass)

Looks solid.


Imbuement: An imbuement spell infuses an object or creature with magic, granting it new abilities.
Air Walk, Align Weapon (+), Arcane Lock (+), Backbiter, Bless Water (+), Bless Weapon (+), Disrupting Weapon (+), Feather Fall, Fire Seeds (+), Fly, Freedom (Mass), Overland Flight, Phantom Steed(+), Rope Trick (+), Spellstaff, Spider Climb, Telepathic Bond (+), Water Breathing, Water Walk

Where's Levitate?


Polymorph: A polymorph spell changes a creature's body into a new form.
Animal Growth, Assimilate (+), Baleful Polymorph, Enlarge Person (Mass), Gaseous Form, Giant Vermin, Implosion, Iron Body, Meld into Stone, Oak Body, Reduce Person (Mass), Reincarnate (+), Righteous Might (+), Shadow Body (+), Statue, Tree Shape, Wind Walk

Looks solid.


Time: A time spell manipulates time itself, speeding or slowing its passage for the subject.
Gentle Repose, Haste, Slow, Temporal Stasis, Time Stop

Shouldn't this be one of Imprisonment's subschools?

[Vadskye]

I am still interested.
Excellent! Me too.

Looking at the wording again, the wording does fit your interpretation better than Foxwarrior's. I should mention that on the discusion page (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Talk:Summon_Self_(3.5e_Spell)), unless you'd rather.
Go for it, if you want.

We still have time to decide. I don't really have a strong opinion at this point which links to use.

It does occur to me that a likely format would be:

Description of which spells are subschooled in spoiler.
beginning of spoiler
Name of spell subschooled; subschool using my system; subschool using your system
repeat above for each such spell
end of spoiler
Makes sense. Would we each decide the subschools according to both of our systems to make sure our impressions match? More work, but it ensures a very strong understanding of each others' ideas.

I was thinking of them as spells that "prevents such sorting". A look at the spells countered has me rethinking that.
Ah, it could make sense in the context of Banishment and Dismissal - but there's a lot more dimensional travel than just those.

Since both Freedom of Movement and Sequester protect from mundane effects, neither is negation.
Interesting. I can see the logic; I'll see if I can find any weird counterexamples, but none come to mind immediately.

Sounds good. I should mention that the links are most promising first. And that the last three are for Pathfinder which except for polymorph has the same subschools as 3.5.
Pathfinder spells shouldn't be an issue, agreed.

Move Earth and Snare would seem to fit better in Animation than Alteration.
Interesting point. I think you're right about Snare, but I'm inclined to keep Move Earth where it is. The movement is gradual, but that feels different to me than actually granting the earth a semblance of life; it's just a function of how much earth is being altered. I'd also prefer not to think about the implications of granting a semblance of life to only part of a fully solid structure (specifically, the planet). With that said, it would be easy to refluff the spell into an Animation spell without changing the effect; I'm just not inclined to.

Where's Levitate?
Oops. Moved to Evocation (Control), with the rest of the telekinesis.

Shouldn't this be one of Imprisonment's subschools?
Indeed! I had that on my actual text for Imprisonment, but I forgot to add it to this list.

Also, I decided to change the Time subschool to the Temporal subschool. It just sounded better to me.

[ideasmith]

Makes sense. Would we each decide the subschools according to both of our systems to make sure our impressions match? More work, but it ensures a very strong understanding of each others' ideas.

I was assuming that, which is why the actual subschooling would be inside spoiler tags.


Ah, it could make sense in the context of Banishment and Dismissal - but there's a lot more dimensional travel than just those.

Indeed there is.


Interesting point. I think you're right about Snare, but I'm inclined to keep Move Earth where it is. The movement is gradual, but that feels different to me than actually granting the earth a semblance of life; it's just a function of how much earth is being altered. I'd also prefer not to think about the implications of granting a semblance of life to only part of a fully solid structure (specifically, the planet). With that said, it would be easy to refluff the spell into an Animation spell without changing the effect; I'm just not inclined to.

Makes sense.

************************************************** *********************

I did a check-through for changes you apparently wanted to make and haven't. I don't know whether you still want to make them:

Putting Clone in Conjuration.

Adding a Communication subschool.

Putting Rope Trick in Conjuration/Creation

[Vadskye]

I did a check-through for changes you apparently wanted to make and haven't. I don't know whether you still want to make them:

Putting Clone in Conjuration.

Adding a Communication subschool.

Putting Rope Trick in Conjuration/Creation
Thanks for the catches. I made all of those changes. Rope Trick is now in the awkward position of being Conjuration/Transmutation (Animation, Creation, Translocation); I might refluff the spell at some point. Likewise, it's awkward that Commune is (Communication) but Commune with Nature is (Knowledge). I'll probably change either the fluff or the name of one of the spells.

[ideasmith]

Thanks for the catches. I made all of those changes. Rope Trick is now in the awkward position of being Conjuration/Transmutation (Animation, Creation, Translocation); I might refluff the spell at some point. Likewise, it's awkward that Commune is (Communication) but Commune with Nature is (Knowledge). I'll probably change either the fluff or the name of one of the spells.

You are welcome.

Are we ready for testing yet? If so, do you have a preference for which site too use?

[Vadskye]

You are welcome.

Are we ready for testing yet? If so, do you have a preference for which site too use?

I think so. Not a strong one; D&D Wiki is likely to have the most esoteric and difficult to categorize spells, while the PF spells are likely to be the simplest and easiest to categorize.

[ideasmith]

I'll start then. I've put a linked the 'title' so you won't have to open the spoiler until after you've subschooled them.

A Life for a Life through An Eternal Curse Upon Thee (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/3.5e_Spells)

A Life for a Life (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/A_Life_For_A_Life_(3.5e_Spell)); Conjuration(healing); Necromancy/Life and Necromancy/Soul
Abolishing Flames (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Abolishing_Flames_(3.5e_Spell)); Evocation(energy) and Evocation(invocation); Evocation/Channelling and Evocation/Energy
Accept Soul (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Accept_Soul_(3.5e_Spell)); Illusion(shadow); Illusion/Phantasm and Necromancy/Soul
Acid Bomb (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Acid_Bomb_(3.5e_Spell)); Conjuration(creation); Conjuration/Creation
Acid Rain (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Acid_Rain_(3.5e_Spell)); Conjuration(creation); Conjuration/Creation and Abjuration/Shielding
Acid Sheath (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Acid_Sheath_(3.5e_Spell)); Conjuration(creation); Conjuration/Creation
Aetheric Weapon (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Aetheric_Weapon_(3.5e_Spell)); Conjuration(creation); Conjuration/Creation, Evocation/Channelling and Transmutation/Imbuement
Aetherion Blast (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Aetherion_Blast_(3.5e_Spell)); Conjuration(creation); Conjuration/Creation
Aetherion Burst (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Aetherion_Burst_(3.5e_Spell)); Conjuration(creation); Conjuration/Creation
Aetherion Orb (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Aetherion_Orb_(3.5e_Spell)); Conjuration(creation); Conjuration/Creation
Aethernova (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Aethernova_(3.5e_Spell)); Conjuration(creation); Conjuration/Creation
Alien Limb (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Alien_Limb_(3.5e_Spell)); Transmutation(polymorph); Transmutation/Polymorph
Alignment Aura Dowsing (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Alignment_Aura_Dowsing_(3.5e_Spell)); Divination(awareness); Divination/Awareness
All in the Family (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/All_in_the_Family_(3.5e_Spell)); Universal; Universal
Alter Form (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Alter_Form_(3.5e_Spell)); Transmutation(polymorph); Transmutation/Polymorph
Alternative (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Alternative_(3.5e_Spell)); Evocation(invocation); Transmutation/Imbuement
Amphibiate (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Amphibiate_(3.5e_Spell)); Transmutation(polymorph); Transmutation/Polymorph
An Eternal Curse Upon Thee (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/An_Eternal_Curse_Upon_Thee_(3.5e_Spell)); Necromancy(spirit); Necromancy/no subschool

[Vadskye]

I'll start then. I've put a linked the 'title' so you won't have to open the spoiler until after you've subschooled them.

The first set:
{table=head]Spell|Ideasmith school|Vadskye school
A Life for a Life|Conjuration (Healing)|Necromancy (Life, Soul)
Abolishing Flames|Evocation (Energy, Invocation)|Evocation (Channeling, Energy)
Accept Soul|Illusion (Phantasm)|Illusion/Necromancy (Phantasm, Soul)
Acid Bomb|Conjuration (Creation)|Conjuration (Creation)
Acid Rain|Conjuration (Creation)|Conjuration (Creation)
Acid Sheath|Conjuration (Creation)|Abjuration/Conjuration (Creation, Shielding)
Aetheric Weapon|Conjuration (Summoning)|Conjuration/Evocation (Channeling, Summoning)
Aetherion Blast|Conjuration (Creation)|Necromancy (Soul)
Aetherion Burst|Conjuration (Creation)|Necromancy (Soul)
Aetherion Orb|Conjuration (Creation)|Necromancy (Soul)
Aethernova|Conjuration (Creation)|Necromancy (Soul)
Alien Limb|Transmutation (Imbuement, Polymorph)|Transmutation (Animation, Polymorph)
Alignment Aura Dowsing|Divination (Awareness)|Divination (Awareness)
All in the Family|Universal|Universal
Alter Form|Transmutation (Polymorph)|Transmutation (Polymorph)
Alternative|Enchantment (Emotion)|Enchantment/Transmutation (Emotion, Temporal)
Amphibiate|Transmutation (Polymorph)|Transmutation (Polymorph)
An Eternal Curse Upon Thee|Necromancy (Spirit)|Necromancy (Soul)[/table]
More spells, up through Apocalpyse From the Sky:
{table=head]Spell|Ideasmith school|Vadskye school
Analyze Teleportation|Divination (Knowledge)|Divination (Knowledge)
Ancestral Weapon|Conjuration (Creation)|Conjuration/Transmutation (Augment, Creation)
Aneis's Blood Cone|Necromancy (Impairment)|Necromancy (Flesh)
Aneis's Blood Revolt|Necromancy (Impairment)|Necromancy (Flesh)
Animate Graft|Transmutation (Imbuement)|Necromancy/Transmutation (Animation, Flesh)
Animate Jelly|Transmutation (Imbuement)|Transmutation (Animation)
Animate Statues|Transmutation (Imbuement)|Transmutation (Animation)
Antibite|Transmutation (Alteration, Imbuement)|Transmutation (Alteration, Imbuement)
Antimagic Field|Abjuration (Negation)|Abjuration (Negation)
Antimagic Ward|Abjuration (Negation)|Abjuration (Negation)
Antimaneuver Field|Abjuration (Negation)|Abjuration (Negation)
Apocalypse|Evocation|Enchantment/Evocation (Morale)
Apocalypse from the Sky|Evocation|Evocation[/table]

The "apocalypse" spells were particularly difficult, since they both lack any fluff justification for the damage. I left them without an Evocation subschool; I think that the fluff needs to be rewritten before a subschool can be assigned.
Abolishing Flames made me realize that Flame Strike should also have two subschools.

I'm intrigued by your use of Illusion (Shadow) for Accept Soul. I don't see Shadow in the original description; does that mean you'd change the fluff?

I assume you mixed up the subschools for Acid Rain and Acid Sheath?

Aetheric Weapon feels more Summoning than Creation to me; you're explictly creating a copy of a deity's weapon, which is classic Summoning. That also let me drop the need to have Transmutation (Imbuement); if it's just summoning a partial version of an existing deity weapon (not normally permissible, but Evocation (Channeling) lets the spell get away with it), it isn't directly adding the effects itself, avoiding the need to be triple-schooled. With that said, it's a very difficult spell to categorize.

I decided that I don't like using Conjuration (Creation) for Aetherion. That logic lets Conjuration (Creation) get away with basically anything just on the justification that it's creating a substance that can perform that role. If you can "create" Aetherion, why can't you "create" fire or negative energy? Necromancy (soul) matches the full description of "aetherion" much more closely, and follows my decision to assign positive and negative energy to Necromancy. Aetherion has more in common with positive and negative energy than with anything I'd want Conjuration (Creation) to create.

Alien Limb explicitly animates the limb, so I included Imbuement or Animation.

Your placement of Alternative in your system confuses me. Why would it be Evocation (Invocation)? I also categorized it differently on my end; Enchantment (Emotion) for the anti-fear effect, and Transmutation (Temporal) for the acceleration of spellcasting. Transmutation (Imbuement) could also be justified, but I felt it wasn't the best fit.

An Eternal Curse Upon Thee would be Soul in my system because it explictly costs the caster's soul and condemns the souls of the targets to "oblivion".

The "apocalypse" spells were particularly difficult, since they both lack any fluff justification for the damage. I left them without an Evocation subschool; I think that the fluff needs to be rewritten before a subschool can be assigned.