Atonement fake out?

[Ssin]

Because it's better to lie and be friends with your partymembers than it is to be truthfull and get killed.

I am currently playing an evil character in a good party (with a paladin and a cleric/paladin) OOC, they know I'm evil, IC they don't (yet), while talking with one of the other players (the cleric/paladin) he mentioned he might cast atonement on me when he finds out in order to get me 'right' again.

I've read the atonement spell and it seems that the spell will fail unless I am actually sorry for my misdeeds and want to atone (which I don't) however, I do want to give the other players the idea that their atonement spell hsa succeeded.

My questions:
1. Does the atonement caster know whether or not his spell has succeeded? 2. Does he still need to expend the 500 xp?
3. Will it work to have a contingency 'when the target of atonement, cast steal alignment on caster'

and related, in a few levels I will become a half fiend and classify as an native outsider, the atonement spell says it doesn't work on outsiders.
4. Would that include me at that point?
5. Would it still be possible to use above described fake-out? (assuming the other players don't read the spell carfully and miss the outsiders clause)

As always, thank you for your input :)

[Studoku]

1. There's nothing in the description that says they would. That said, it's an hour long cast time which may be fluffed as a long and boring ritual with anointing and swearing on holy stuff. In that case I'd probably ask for a bluff check or something to hide the fact that you're just doing lip-service.
2. Yes. They still cast the spell.
3. You can trigger a contingency off being hit by Attonement. I'm not sure what "Steal Alignment" does- I've never heard of it and can't find anything through cursory googling.
4. Once you're a half-fiend, you'll be immune to Attonement as an Outsider (and an Always Evil one at that.
5. You can still trigger a contingency off the attempt. I'm not sure how likely it is that the paladins will be giving you a chance to attone when you're a half-demonic monster with horns and bat wings though.

All this is at your DM's discretion of course. Rule 0 and all that.

How did you end up with an evil character with a party with two paladins anyway?

[Ssin]

sorry, by steal alignment I meant 'misrepresent alignment' should give you more hits on google ;-)

Good news all around, my bluff is already passed the +50 mark and the highest sense motive in the party is around +30, so that should be save.

Plan is to (when/if they find out) tell them a sob story about how sorry I am and that I have been misled by fiends etc.

I'm thinking of taking 'craft contingency' as my next feat so I could include a polymorph spell for when I am an outsider and they try to atone me.
Considering that we've been together since lvl 1 (now lvl 25) I'm guessing the paladin will give me the option to either atone or die. Also she's my IC niece which should give me the benefit of the doubt.

'Look at that, it worked, too bad I lost my wings and am unable to fly anymore now, but I feel so much better with all those evil urges gone from my system' :smallcool:

This will of course be run by the DM, I just like to get extra info first.

[Krobar]

It all comes down to whether or not the caster knows the spell is successful, which the description doesn't mention. Since you committed your evil acts willingly, he'll have to intercede directly with his deity and spend 500 xp, and might even cast a geas/quest first, so I would rule that his deity will let him know if you're not truly repentant. YMMV based on other DMs though.

You're not his slave, you're not his servant, you don't have to bow to him, or his deity, or allow them to turn you into something you're not. If he doesn't like that, maybe he can just die in his sleep with a necklace of strangulation around his neck that nobody knew you had.


If your DM rules that he DOESN'T find out it fails, then a good bluff roll should do the trick.

[Studoku]

You're not his slave, you're not his servant, you don't have to bow to him, or his deity, or allow them to turn you into something you're not. If he doesn't like that, maybe he can just die in his sleep with a necklace of strangulation around his neck that nobody knew you had.
It is worth noting that evil people don't have a problem working with Paladins. Paladins are the intolerant ones. Doesn't mean we should murder them all in their sleep but it's food for thought.

[DeltaEmil]

If the cleric doesn't lose 500 xp, then the evil recipient did not change alignment, so the cleric will know that the recipient is unwilling to change.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Reject the atonement on the grounds that you don't deserve to be relieved of the burden of your misdeeds. That you must live with the memory and the guilt of everything you did.



3. You can trigger a contingency off being hit by Attonement. I'm not sure what "Steal Alignment" does- I've never heard of it and can't find anything through cursory googling.
I believe he means the spell misdirection which can let you project a false alignment aura

Intolerance does not apply to evil, we aren't talking about a race, or a nationality or a REAL world religion.

[Krobar]

It is worth noting that evil people don't have a problem working with Paladins. Paladins are the intolerant ones. Doesn't mean we should murder them all in their sleep but it's food for thought.

I'm not saying just murder him in his sleep, and I agree about who is really the tolerant one and who isn't. I'm saying just murder him in his sleep if he can't accept you for you who are and insists on making you bow to him and his deity.

[SethoMarkus]

The spell description says nothing about informing the caster as to whether or not the subject of the spell changed alignments or not, and the subject may choose whether to change their alignment or not. Choosing to retain the original alignment is not the same as the spell failing; the spell still functioned as intended, a spell slot is expended, and experience points are lost (in a case where the transgressions or evil actions were willingly committed, such as in the OP).

With that said, I would imagine any Paladin of average intelligence or higher to take several precautions.

First, they would place a geas of some sort on the intended subject to show dedication to the change in alignment.

Second, immediately prior to the casting of the Atonement, or during, the Paladin would have a Zone of Truth set up. Although the Atonement spell indicates that no compulsion can force the subject to make the decision to change their alignment, it says nothing about using spells or abilities to make sure they are telling the truth.

Third, the Paladin would use Detect Evil on the subject after the Atonement spell was completed, ensuring that everything went according to plan.

Quite frankly, I'm not sure how two paladins and an aspiring half-fiend ended up in a group together in the first place, much less held together for 25 levels. That sort of opposites might work well in a story to create tension and humor, but I couldn't imagine it working out with a positive result in an actual game with player agency. Kudos to you all for getting this far, but I think it might be time for your characters to split in-game. Surely you are powerful enough to escape the paladins at this point, and they are certainly powerful enough to see through any deception given enough time.

[Studoku]

I'm not saying just murder him in his sleep, and I agree about who is really the tolerant one and who isn't. I'm saying just murder him in his sleep if he can't accept you for you who are and insists on making you bow to him and his deity.
May I sig this?

[Lord Vukodlak]

I'm not saying just murder him in his sleep, and I agree about who is really the tolerant one and who isn't. I'm saying just murder him in his sleep if he can't accept you for you who are and insists on making you bow to him and his deity.

Strictly speaking I'd feel safer with the intolerant paladin watching my back then the fun evil guy.

[Ssin]

I have only been evil for the past 6 levels or so because I bargained with Malcanteth for an infusion of demonic power to become more powerfull so that we (the party) stand a better chance against the raising of Tarazdun.

Since then I have always had 24h undetectable alignment & misrepresent alignment (in case one or the other gets dispelled somehow, I'm not paranoid but you know, precautious ;-) )

I am assuming the paladin & cleric paladin will take some precautions aswell yes, because they know (IC & OOC) that I can talk my way out of anything (e.g. very high bluff) however I have a class feature called 'king of lies' which gives me SR (13 or 15 +HD) against spells that detect truth even if they normally allow no SR, also I have the feat Divine denial which give me a save vs divine spells even if they would normally allow none.

If they would give me a quest to 'prove my willingness to change' I would perform said quest without any problem. Just to make sure they believe I have turned a new leaf (is that the correct expression?)

IC reasoning for my char is that a cult of Tarazdun worshippers sacrificed my wife and I will do anything (such as letting myself be infused with demonic powers) to get back at them (well that specific cult has been erradicated now it's more personal vs (the avatar of) Tarazdun himself (elder evil deity captured in transdimensional prison)
the rest of the party is also out to stop Tarazdun from being freed just not willing to commit evil acts in the prosess (so not at any and all cost ;-) )
We (as a party IC) originally started out on a quest to find my wife who had been captured, so the party is me, my niece (cleric paladin of Kord), and her 2 uncles (a paladin and a monk both of Heironeus)

I get that you say 'it's easier to split up' but blood is thicker than water (although I married into the family and we have no actual bloodties) also OOC if we were to go our own way that would mean I need to build a new char in order to keep playing the game with my friends which is something I'd rather not since I have a lot of (game) time invested in this char ;-) hence I prefer to just keep them oblivious to the whole demonic power thing but that might get a bit tricky in the long run (when I hit lvl 10 of my prestige class and turn into a half fiend :p) hence the atonement fake out to put their minds at ease :smallcool:

-edit- added note: Sure I could kill them in their sleep (or when they're awake, doesn't really matter) but where would my canonfodder trusted allies for the big battle be? ;-)

[Krobar]

May I sig this?

Be my guest!



Strictly speaking I'd feel safer with the intolerant paladin watching my back then the fun evil guy.


Oh, me too, for sure. But that's not what we're talking about here.

[Barstro]

Strictly speaking I'd feel safer with the intolerant paladin watching my back then the fun evil guy.

Everyone else picture Richard?

Were it my paladin, he would probably not do anything after casting Atonement. Being evil and acting good seems better than being good and acting evil. It's one hell of a jump to go from "we've been in the same party for a long time" to "you found out I was evil and tried to make me good; now I'll kill you". Especially since it is well known that paladins WANT people to be good.

But, as mentioned, this is not what we are talking about.

My reading of;

Redemption or Temptation
You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether it retains its original alignment or acquiesces to your offer and changes to your alignment. No duress, compulsion, or magical influence can force the subject to take advantage of the opportunity offered if it is unwilling to abandon its old alignment. This use of the spell does not work on outsiders or any creature incapable of changing its alignment naturally.
leads me to feel that the exp. cost is used up when the choice is given. It's up to the recipient to accept the change and there is no way (from this spell alone) for the caster to know if the alignment was changed.

[SethoMarkus]

I get that you say 'it's easier to split up' but blood is thicker than water (although I married into the family and we have no actual bloodties) also OOC if we were to go our own way that would mean I need to build a new char in order to keep playing the game with my friends which is something I'd rather not since I have a lot of (game) time invested in this char ;-) hence I prefer to just keep them oblivious to the whole demonic power thing but that might get a bit tricky in the long run (when I hit lvl 10 of my prestige class and turn into a half fiend :p) hence the atonement fake out to put their minds at ease :smallcool:

I guess then my question is, why not use that high bluff score to avoid the Atonement spell entirely? Strike a deal with them to work together to destroy the BBEG and then go your separate ways (after the campaign is ended). Or, before they find out that you are evil (IC) trick them into make a vow/oath that the three of you will stick together and never take an action that would harm the others. As long as you don't break the terms of the oath, the paladins cannot attack you without (risking) falling. You can even come right out and say that you are evil after they take the oath, but they should be bound to their word (as long as you don't provoke them in other ways).

I guess, since they know OOC that your character is evil, it just seems a bit mean to let them waste 500 exp for no reason (since I assume they will know OOC that the spell didn't work as intended). Even if 500 exp is a trifle sum at that level, there are other ways to salvage the situation.

In any case, thanks for taking the time to listen to my opinions :smalltongue:, and I wish you and your group the best of luck!

[Ssin]

I like the 'making a vow' deal actually... although now they know I'm evil they might not fall for that IC

The rest of the party has only known OOC for 3 sessions that I am evil (DM had a slip of the tongue) before that they were convinced I was merely CN and gone in downtime coming back with bizarre (but believable, hence the bluff ;-) ) stories, if I do the fake-out they will be convinced (IC & OCC) that I have turned good (or neutral)

I am wondering though about your vow idea, I though that 'knowingly associating ith an evil guy' makes a paladin fall then again so does 'breaking an oath' so.... what if these conflict?
I guess that's up to the DM then anyways.

Any other suggestions for improving the atonement fake-out (or any other ideas in general for the situation without resorting to killing my partymembers) ?

[Fouredged Sword]

Repeat after me.

"I am completely and totally TN, and I reject and am insulted by any insinuation to the contrary. I simply do what I think is best at any given moment. I am no paladin, but I am insulted by your lack of faith in me."

Then you avoid the whole issue.

And if they question you, UMD a holy weapon so it doesn't give you any negative levels to wield. That will show them.

[Psyren]

I say, beat him to the punch. Before you're discovered - say, at the next town - loudly confess your sins/misdeeds/fornications/etc., find the nearest priest, and put on a very exaggerated show of begging forgiveness and craving redemption. Have the priest - who is secretly in your employ - gladly welcome you back to Good's bosom and exonerate you in front of the party. Either as part of the proceedings or immediately beforehand, arrange to have a false alignment/aura alteration/similar detection-deceiving spell cast on you. As you descend the temple steps, clad in the white robe of an innocent, the Paladin will scan you once - then never again.

In short, having an NPC "atone" you - preferably one from a thief or trickster deity's clergy - will avoid all the sticky issues here and accomplish the same ends.

[Krobar]

I say, beat him to the punch. Before you're discovered - say, at the next town - loudly confess your sins/misdeeds/fornications/etc., find the nearest priest, and put on a very exaggerated show of begging forgiveness and craving redemption. Have the priest - who is secretly in your employ - gladly welcome you back to Good's bosom and exonerate you in front of the party. Either as part of the proceedings or immediately beforehand, arrange to have a false alignment/aura alteration/similar detection-deceiving spell cast on you. As you descend the temple steps, clad in the white robe of an innocent, the Paladin will scan you once - then never again.

In short, having an NPC "atone" you - preferably one from a thief or trickster deity's clergy - will avoid all the sticky issues here and accomplish the same ends.

I like your devious nature. This am goodly plans.

[Ssin]

And if they question you, UMD a holy weapon so it doesn't give you any negative levels to wield. That will show them.

You can do this? how?

Psyren and Fouredged, you both have good ideas which I could use for now, any thoughs for after the fiendish transformation?

[Ssin]

totally blanked out on that part of UMD, just read it again and it's only DC 30 :)

[Psyren]

The best part with involving an NPC is that now the DM is your co-conspirator. You can even combine that trick with the UMD Holy Sword, which should arguably give you a hefty circumstance bonus on your Bluff check. the DM can then roll your Bluff vs. the Paladin's Sense Motive secretly, so that his player is none the wiser. Do it right and you'll fool the entire party.

[Fouredged Sword]

Don't do it suddenly though. Start having your character voice doubts about "What my wife would have wanted" and OOC talk about heading off party conflict with a little roleplaying.

Don't tell the rest of the party that the IC heading off of conflict is a bluff. You arn't being dishonest about heading off party conflict.

It will sell the bluff IC and OOC.

[Psyren]

Don't do it suddenly though. Start having your character voice doubts about "What my wife would have wanted" and OOC talk about heading off party conflict with a little roleplaying.

Don't tell the rest of the party that the IC heading off of conflict is a bluff. You arn't being dishonest about heading off party conflict.

It will sell the bluff IC and OOC.

Oh wow, this is evil. Love the wife bit:smallbiggrin:

[JusticeZero]

The next thing would be "How much does changing your alignment actually DO?" Because in all the games I have run or been in, alignment does not determine behavior. As long as you are not evil for mechanical reasons (ie, "I have a class that requires an Evil alignment" or similar), one can atone, be made shiny pretty LG, then go right back to eating babies and kicking puppies, and the alignment will shift back to evil. So you really could intend to make up for all the evil you've done, then fall casually off the wagon at the next bit of temptation.

[Ssin]

I have a PrC that requires a 'non-good' alignment.

Anyways, thanks all for your advice and insights, I'll let you know how it plays out :smallbiggrin:

[Feytalist]

They're level 25, yes?

I'm wondering why, when they find out, they don't just drop a sanctify the wicked, take a year off adventuring, and welcome their brand spanking new sanctified half-fiend back to the party.

Can't bluff your way out of that one :smallbiggrin:


But nah, IC, the advice seems solid. And a nice little roleplaying challege.

[ahenobarbi]

Do you actually act evil? If don't you should have nothing to worry about.


I'm not saying just murder him in his sleep, and I agree about who is really the tolerant one and who isn't. I'm saying just murder him in his sleep if he can't accept you for you who are and insists on making you bow to him and his deity.

:smallsigh:

Looking at definition of evil

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

I wouldn't call that exactly tolerant.

Also I think paladin who mind-rapes others should fall, because it doesn't seem in line with definition of good

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

[Krobar]

Do you actually act evil? If don't you should have nothing to worry about.



:smallsigh:

Looking at definition of evil

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

I wouldn't call that exactly tolerant.

Also I think paladin who mind-rapes others should fall, because it doesn't seem in line with definition of good

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

We're talking about an evil character here, who I assume has done evil things because he's evil, and who's had no problem tolerating the rest of the party. It's the paladin who's not being tolerant of others. Posting a definition of evil and what it implies doesn't really change anything.


And in this particular instance, it wouldn't be killing out of convenience, or sport, or for no reason. It's killing over a grave insult, a lack of trust, discovering the character's evil nature and trying to change it. An evil character can't trust a paladin who finds out he's evil, and the paladin can't just look the other way. This means something must be done, and right away.

But honestly, I do like the fake atonement idea even better. It's a smarter approach to dealing with the paladin and a better roleplaying opportunity.

And I agree with you on a paladin who mindrapes others. Definitely a fall-worthy offense. But that's not what this thread is about, and I didn't see any mention of that until you brought it up.

[hamishspence]

The paladin's code demands they "punish those who harm or threaten innocents"

If it's possible to be evil without doing that (possibly via confining evil acts to "not-innocent victims") then the paladin will have much less to complain about.

[Krobar]

The paladin's code demands they "punish those who harm or threaten innocents"

If it's possible to be evil without doing that (possibly via confining evil acts to "not-innocent victims") then the paladin will have much less to complain about.

Except that "While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code."

This means if the player wants to continue playing his paladin, he needs to address this. One of them either needs to change, or at a minimum leave the party.

[hamishspence]

this applies once the paladin knows the person is evil- or if they're doing objectionable but not punishable things, in front of the paladin.

[Mewtarthio]

And I agree with you on a paladin who mindrapes others. Definitely a fall-worthy offense. But that's not what this thread is about, and I didn't see any mention of that until you brought it up.

I believe that was a reference to the sanctify the wicked spell mentioned a few posts back. You know, the BoED spell that traps someone's soul in a gem for a year and kills them if the re-education doesn't take?

[Krobar]

this applies once the paladin knows the person is evil- or if they're doing objectionable but not punishable things, in front of the paladin.

That will surely happen eventually. You can count on it. Unless of course the player is really smart about his evil character. But in my experience that usually only lasts for so long, and the player of the paladin will inevitably start putting 2+2 together and realize the character is evil.



I believe that was a reference to the sanctify the wicked spell mentioned a few posts back. You know, the BoED spell that traps someone's soul in a gem for a year and kills them if the re-education doesn't take?

Ah... I searched for the wrong term before posting my reply.

Yeah, I would definitely have a problem with a paladin using that spell, but not a cleric.

[ahenobarbi]

We're talking about an evil character here, who I assume has done evil things because he's evil, and who's had no problem tolerating the rest of the party. It's the paladin who's not being tolerant of others. Posting a definition of evil and what it implies doesn't really change anything.

I'm saying writing character is either evil (per d&d definition) or tolerant. It can't be both. And pally didn't do anything to be called intolerant. And if he does he should fall. Because allowing lawful stupid pallies annoys me extremely.


An evil character can't trust a paladin who finds out he's evil, and the paladin can't just look the other way. This means something must be done, and right away.

Actually if the evil member doesn't do anything punishable, pally can just not use evildar on them and everyone will be happy.



And I agree with you on a paladin who mindrapes others. Definitely a fall-worthy offense. But that's not what this thread is about, and I didn't see any mention of that until you brought it up.


I believe that was a reference to the sanctify the wicked spell mentioned a few posts back. You know, the BoED spell that traps someone's soul in a gem for a year and kills them if the re-education doesn't take?

Yeah, also forcing atonement on them (you'd better be willing to accept it or else it's smiting time).


That will surely happen eventually. You can count on it. Unless of course the player is really smart about his evil character. But in my experience that usually only lasts for so long, and the player of the paladin will inevitably start putting 2+2 together and realize the character is evil.

If I understand OP player knows about evil party mate. But character doesn't. Which makes matters simpler.

EDIT: Just to be clear: I like fake atonement idea. To be sure if/how it'll work make a Spellcraft check and ask DM :smallcool:

[DeltaEmil]

Why does the Paladin ever have to fall at all in the first place?

They're not a powerful class in D&D 3.x, like they were in prior editions.

Do away with their code. Paladins are sucktastic enough even without half-baked fluff made rules restrictions.

And it's always only the paladin that falls or has to deal with it, never the lawful good cleric who has more powerful spells and can summon a horde of celestial paladins all better than the normal paladin.

Also, don't use alignment.

[Krobar]

I'm saying writing character is either evil (per d&d definition) or tolerant. It can't be both. And pally didn't do anything to be called intolerant. And if he does he should fall. Because allowing lawful stupid pallies annoys me extremely.

An evil character can very easily be both. You need to expand your ideas. Many serial killers have been evil to the extreme, but very tolerant of others except when they were murdering someone.

Actually if the evil member doesn't do anything punishable, pally can just not use evildar on them and everyone will be happy.


In my experience that just about never happens. Every single person I've ever known that played a paladin while there was an evil party member eventually found the slimmest of reasons to ping them. They always look for it once they find out OOC that the character is evil.


Yeah, also forcing atonement on them (you'd better be willing to accept it or else it's smiting time).

A forced atonement is no atonement at all.

If I understand OP player knows about evil party mate. But character doesn't. Which makes matters simpler.

See my previous remark about people who play paladins looking for any and every reason to ping them once they find out OOC that a character is evil.

EDIT: Just to be clear: I like fake atonement idea. To be sure if/how it'll work make a Spellcraft check and ask DM :smallcool:

replies in green.

[hamishspence]

I believe that was a reference to the sanctify the wicked spell mentioned a few posts back. You know, the BoED spell that traps someone's soul in a gem for a year and kills them if the re-education doesn't take?

Actually as written, it's impossible for the spell not to work- once the soul is in the gem.

So there's no "kills them if the re-education doesn't take".

[Deophaun]

Good news all around, my bluff is already passed the +50 mark and the highest sense motive in the party is around +30, so that should be save.
Bad news: Bluffs only last for about a round, and with a minute interaction, it's a flat DC 20 Sense Motive to know something is wrong (hunch).

[ahenobarbi]

An evil character can very easily be both. You need to expand your ideas. Many serial killers have been evil to the extreme, but very tolerant of others except when they were murdering someone.

"I'll tolerate you unless I want to hurt you" is tautology, not tolerance.


In my experience that just about never happens. Every single person I've ever known that played a paladin while there was an evil party member eventually found the slimmest of reasons to ping them. They always look for it once they find out OOC that the character is evil.

What can I say... find someone who can play a paladin, not blood hundry, self righteous murderer.


A forced atonement is no atonement at all.

Yeah, that's why I wrote paladin should fall if he tries that.

[Ssin]

Work came in the way of me reply-ing :p

anyways, few remarks.

Sanctify the wicked is a non issue since it is a cleric spell for only a single dpecific domain and the cleric in my party has no access to this domain, besides that I am pretty sure I would make the willsave (barring a natural 1... knocks on wood)

I haven't done anything particularly evil in sights of the party or at least not in such a way they noticed, it has been mostly going on behind their backs and in dowtime. (amongst other things I swiped a rod of Gold Dragon control from the loot and gave it to a Demon for more power for me, knowing it would be used to launch assaults on defenselss villages, and thus far I have been able to steer away the party from each report of 'golden dragons killing everybody' "yes my dear partymembers this does sound strange, however let us focus on something else that has priority" :P) The 'most evil' thing I have done in plain sight is to talk to evil creatures (and not kill them on sight as is pretty much the policy for the paladins) and trying to reach a non-violent end to the confrontation, it's worked sometimes, sometimes a paladin came charging by :p either way talking to evil creatures and finding another solution besides killing them is definately not evil in my book (it could even be a good action) and shouldn't flag me as evil to them.

As for the Evil-Radar of both pallies, undetectable alignment & misrepresent alignment take care of that ;)

The 'hunch' DC for sense motive is only a 20 but this has been rolled secretely by the DM at the time of my change to evil came in effect, nobody made it (according to the DM) and there is no retry (that is, if I read the skill correctly)

[Scow2]

Except that "While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code."

This means if the player wants to continue playing his paladin, he needs to address this. One of them either needs to change, or at a minimum leave the party.So never tell them you're evil, or give them reason to think your evil is any more than a side effect of what depth's you've gone to, but otherwise you do the right thing.

When it comes to Atonement, tell them flat-out it won't work. "I want to do the right thing and make the world a better place - but I'm not sorry for what I've done in the past, and never will be."

[Deophaun]

The 'hunch' DC for sense motive is only a 20 but this has been rolled secretely by the DM at the time of my change to evil came in effect, nobody made it (according to the DM) and there is no retry (that is, if I read the skill correctly)
How is that even possible?

Good news all around, my bluff is already passed the +50 mark and the highest sense motive in the party is around +30, so that should be save.
The lowest that person could roll is 31. In other words: auto-success.

[Jack_Simth]

I have a class feature called 'king of lies' which gives me SR (13 or 15 +HD) against spells that detect truth even if they normally allow no SR, also I have the feat Divine denial which give me a save vs divine spells even if they would normally allow none.Warning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow):
A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells. (emphasis added)

If you make use of this feat, you give away the game.

[Scow2]

Warning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow):(emphasis added)

If you make use of this feat, you give away the game.

So, he'd know if Discern Lies fails, but not Zone of Truth, which is an Area Effect.

[Jack_Simth]

So, he'd know if Discern Lies fails, but not Zone of Truth, which is an Area Effect.
Right, but if he's using Divine Denial on the Atonement itself....

[Scow2]

Right, but if he's using Divine Denial on the Atonement itself....

There's no save on the Atonement spell. It either works if the recipient wants it to, or not.

[Krobar]

"I'll tolerate you unless I want to hurt you" is tautology, not tolerance.



What can I say... find someone who can play a paladin, not blood hundry, self righteous murderer.



...

It's not blanket tolerance of everything anymore than the paladin is tolerant of the evil guy. It's more a question of who is more tolerant at that moment.

Why do so many people think either someone is completely tolerant of everything or absolutely intolerant of anything? That's not how it works. NOBODY is absolutely tolerant of EVERYTHING.

It's not that nobody can play a paladin. It's that most players to some extent use OOC knowledge in game. It happens and has happened with every game I've ever been in, over 30 years. If you think it doesn't, you're sadly mistaken.

And most paladins are indeed blood-hungry self-righteous murderers. Just read the thread about the paladin vs. the innocent goblin babies. LOTS of people play paladins exactly that way.


So never tell them you're evil, or give them reason to think your evil is any more than a side effect of what depth's you've gone to, but otherwise you do the right thing.

When it comes to Atonement, tell them flat-out it won't work. "I want to do the right thing and make the world a better place - but I'm not sorry for what I've done in the past, and never will be."

Per the OP, the DM already accidentally let slip that his character is evil, and the paladin's player has already announced that he intends to atone him when the opportunity arises.

[Ssin]

How is that even possible?


Quote:


Originally Posted by Ssin View Post

Good news all around, my bluff is already passed the +50 mark and the highest sense motive in the party is around +30, so that should be save.

The lowest that person could roll is 31. In other words: auto-success.

This check has been made 7lvls ago when first started dealing with Demons, also in that time I almost never bluffed party members so nobody bothered putting points in Sense Motive, since then I have been making semi-regular bluffs against partymembers and their points in sense motive have mysteriously increased alot since then...

[Jack_Simth]

There's no save on the Atonement spell. It either works if the recipient wants it to, or not.
Under normal circumstances, this is true. Divine Denial, however, grants it a save.

[Ssin]

I could of course fore-go that save in order to have a more believable performance :)

[Deophaun]

This check has been made 7lvls ago when first started dealing with Demons, also in that time I almost never bluffed party members so nobody bothered putting points in Sense Motive, since then I have been making semi-regular bluffs against partymembers and their points in sense motive have mysteriously increased alot since then...

Wait, you already did the atonement 7 levels ago? Then what's the point of the thread?

[Jack_Simth]

I could of course fore-go that save in order to have a more believable performance :)
So you're going to "willingly accept a spell’s result (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#voluntarilyGivingupaSavingTh row)" then? Wouldn't that mean an alignment change?

[Ssin]

ahh I see the miscommunication here,

I meant that about 7 lvls ago, I started dealing with demons and got a demonic infusion of power, the DM then made a secret Sense Motive check to see if any of the partymembers noticed, they failed.

you mean, áfter the atonement they might get to make a new check if something is wrong which would only be a DC 20 Sense motive and they would make that easily even with a 1.

This I had not considered, maybe I can reason there not entitled to a new Sense Motive since nothing has actually changed and Sense Motive allows no retries?
Otherwise I've seen with epic uses of Bluff I could make a DC 70 check to fake an alignment, would the 'beat' the DC 20 Sense Motive hunch?
If it does not, do you have any other suggestions?

Then again, if the Sense Motive only gives a hunch that 'something is off here' that shouldn't be enough reason (even for the most lawfull stupid paladin) to try and kill me... right?

[Emmerask]

This check has been made 7lvls ago when first started dealing with Demons, also in that time I almost never bluffed party members so nobody bothered putting points in Sense Motive, since then I have been making semi-regular bluffs against partymembers and their points in sense motive have mysteriously increased alot since then...

Setting aside the point that using skills against party members is questionable at best...

If you are around a person with questionable motivations and actions, bluffing you on a semi regular basis then naturally you hone your skill against such things, so nothing magical about that :smallwink:

[Ssin]

So you're going to "willingly accept a spell’s result" then? Wouldn't that mean an alignment change?

If I read atonement correctly the spells result is that I can choose whether or not to drastically change my alignment, so I accept the spells result, which is to give me a choise to change or not.

[Ssin]

Setting aside the point that using skills against party members is questionable at best...

If you are around a person with questionable motivations and actions, bluffing you on a semi regular basis then naturally you hone your skill against such things, so nothing magical about that

All fun and games :) We're set out on finding plot items, the rest of the party wants to bring these items to good deities, I prefer to trade them with Demons for power :smallwink: so sometimes at the end of a dungeon where the party was expecting to find a plot device, it isn't there.... isn't that strange... :smallbiggrin:

I used the term 'mysteriously' because I never failed a bluff check to a party member, so why would they increase their points in that skill? either way pretty much besides the point, as long as I have a 20 point lead, they won't suddenly catch up to me :smallcool:

unrelated question: How do I get the 'originally posted by xxxx' in a quote block?

[Deophaun]

you mean, áfter the atonement they might get to make a new check if something is wrong which would only be a DC 20 Sense motive and they would make that easily even with a 1.

I mean during your whole sob story when you try to convince them, it will probably take more than a minute and they will know something is off.


I had not considered, maybe I can reason there not entitled to a new Sense Motive since nothing has actually changed and Sense Motive allows no retries?

Hunch is tied to a social situation, not a person. This is a new situation and so not a retry.



Otherwise I've seen with epic uses of Bluff I could make a DC 70 check to fake an alignment, would the 'beat' the DC 20 Sense Motive hunch?

No, as hunch has no tie with alignment.



Then again, if the Sense Motive only gives a hunch that 'something is off here' that shouldn't be enough reason (even for the most lawfull stupid paladin) to try and kill me... right?

Correct. Something being off is not cause for a paladin to go smite happy, and one who kills just because of a twinge on the EvilDAR or a hunch should fall. Hard.

In other words, your alignment is the paladin's problem, not yours.

[satorian]

unrelated question: How do I get the 'originally posted by xxxx' in a quote block?

The easiest way is just to quick reply form the post you want to quote. Or you can type a tag of QUOTE=Ssin;post number instead of just quote.

By the by, it's funny that I am so prejudiced against evil PCs in campaigns that I want you to fail. Sorry about that :smallsmile: I've just been sitting here hoping your pally pal hires a cleric to cast Sanctify the Wicked on you. I try to advise you, but then my brain screams SMITE THE UNHOLY PLAYER! Strange, I never thought of myself as that much of a paladin. :smallsmile:

[Fouredged Sword]

Sounds like you just need to give them a reason for WHY they feel something is off, one that isn't going to trip the paladin evildar autokill.

I suggest taking another lover, preferably someone who seems to want you to be a good person. Don't tell the party, hide it and act like you feel it is a weakness to be hidden, that you don't want to admit it to your friends.

Let them discover it without you telling them and then lie about it when confronted. Let them chose the false lie thinking it is the truth and thus disregarding all the sensing that you are not telling the whole truth.

[Emmerask]

The easiest way is just to quick reply form the post you want to quote. Or you can type a tag of QUOTE=Ssin;post number instead of just quote.

By the by, it's funny that I am so prejudiced against evil PCs in campaigns that I want you to fail. Sorry about that :smallsmile: I've just been sitting here hoping your pally pal hires a cleric to cast Sanctify the Wicked on you. I try to advise you, but then my brain screams SMITE THE UNHOLY PLAYER! Strange, I never thought of myself as that much of a paladin. :smallsmile:

Kind of the same, though what I never understood is, if there is no really good reason (ie prophecy, the king/lord telling them to, the brother of one of the party members etc) for the party sticking together, why would the other characters ever adventure with this guy they dont really trust?
Me I would ditch him at the next inn (if the other party members agree) and look for another adventurer :smallwink:

[Ssin]

Sounds like you just need to give them a reason for WHY they feel something is off, one that isn't going to trip the paladin evildar autokill.

I suggest taking another lover, preferably someone who seems to want you to be a good person. Don't tell the party, hide it and act like you feel it is a weakness to be hidden, that you don't want to admit it to your friends.

Let them discover it without you telling them and then lie about it when confronted. Let them chose the false lie thinking it is the truth and thus disregarding all the sensing that you are not telling the whole truth.

This is ... BRILIANT! love it and will definately talk this over with the DM

As to why we're together? We're family, I am the older elf that took 3 human family members (used to be 4 I lost my half-elf son along the way) with him to save his wife (which failed) what then turned into a quest to stop the cults & rising of Tarazdun, I saved the party from some tight spots, they trust me (IC... for now)

It came up OOC which led to a talk and a mention about the atonement spell and since I play Vampire the Masquerade every other week as well I know from experience that things hidden IC are also best kept hidden OOC since I've seen happen on many occasion that when something gets learned OOC that IC questions suddenly begin to rise and assumptions are a lot easier made (It can be difficult to keep OOC and IC completely seperated) so I want to be sure to have 'my ass covered' for any outcome.

And I can understand the "SMITE THE UNHOLY PLAYER! " reaction, I would like to point out though that I have never stolen anything from the party that would've been selled as loot or in any way directly hurt them

[satorian]

Kind of the same, though what I never understood is, if there is no really good reason (ie prophecy, the king/lord telling them to, the brother of one of the party members etc) for the party sticking together, why would the other characters ever adventure with this guy they dont really trust?
Me I would ditch him at the next inn (if the other party members agree) and look for another adventurer :smallwink:

Well, in this case, one of the party members is the evil character's niece, so there is that. But she also an epic paladin. As I see it, a paladin of that level is such a paragon of virtue that evil will wither in her mere presence. Also, paladins, because of their spells, have more ways besides a direct Detect Evil to stumble upon the fact that a companion is evil. Not only do they have Protection from Evil and auras and such, which would tip them off, but at epic levels they tend to have chats with their patron deities. Gods are not fooled by petty mortal masking spells.

[Ssin]

which is why, for example, I had another pressing emergency when the party went to meet Kord :smallwink:

The paladin recently cast protection from evil on me to shield me from evil mind controll, didn't feel a thing :smallbiggrin:

as to evil whithering in her prescence... well there is the small 'corruption' of the paladin from my part, as letting certain evil creatures go and steering her away from 'help the needy' and 'honerable' goals

[satorian]

which is why, for example, I had another pressing emergency when the party went to meet Kord :smallwink:

The paladin recently cast protection from evil on me to shield me from evil mind controll, didn't feel a thing :smallbiggrin:

as to evil whithering in her prescence... well there is the small 'corruption' of the paladin from my part, as letting certain evil creatures go and steering her away from 'help the needy' and 'honerable' goals

Starting with the caveat that I am glad you are having fun, and am extra glad if your whole group is as well, no matter how you play.

Kord is a god. He can see you when you aren't anywhere near him. He doesn't need to cast a scry. He can just see you like a giant black mark next to his holy paladin whom he is almost always watching with a smidgen of his consciousness. You not having gone to meet him is inconsequential. Gods are, well, gods. They know when you are sleeping. They know when you're awake. They know when you've been bad or good. Epic evil is something gods know about and care about, and something they tend to specifically send their representatives to deal with (paladins, clerics, solars, even perhaps avatars). It should be supremely dangerous for a truly evil servant of the lower planes, not just evilish roguey dude, to travel with an epic paladin.

It doesn't sound like you guys really go in for high level play being epic play, but the more you describe the campaign the more I wonder why the DM hasn't had Kord just send a cadre of angels led by a solar to curbstomp you, forcing the paladin into a choice.

[Ssin]

we have alot of fun playing as a group of friends every week. :smallbiggrin:

I hope my DM doesn't read this thread then, because that is nowhere near how powerfull & all knowing he plays the Gods and I'd hate to stand against my party backed with an army of solars :p

[satorian]

It's not so much that they are omniscient, well arguably with a few exceptions like gods of lore and knowledge and ovegods, of which Kord is not one. But they do know pretty much everything about what is important to them, or can know such merely by thinking about it. It just so happens that epic paladins and clerics tend to be important to them. It just so happens that you are standing right next and are an intimate friend of something of immense importance to him.

Check out the SRD section on deities. Read about intermediate deities and what they can do. See, especially, Portfolio Sense, Remote Sensing, Remote Communication. Oh, and alter reality, which most intermediate deities have.

Edit: Oh, I just looked up Kord. Looks like he prefers to send out titans rather than solars. So, well, there's that.

[Sith_Happens]

I'd say it's perfectly likely that Kord would trust an epic Paladin to keep her own uncle in line just as a matter of course. Should he turn out wrong about that, then it's titan kill-squad time.

[TuggyNE]

Edit: Oh, I just looked up Kord. Looks like he prefers to send out titans rather than solars. So, well, there's that.

Titans, eh? The ones that can chain-gate out of the box? Good times.

[Slipperychicken]

You might be able to pull it off, as long as your Paladin isn't too paranoid about scanning people. If he decides to scan you before and after the spell, there's not much you can do about it.


I'm confused about your motivation, though. Why would a person work so hard and risk so much to be an objectively bad person? Is your character fanatically devoted to evilness like some Saturday morning cartoon villain?

[Ssin]

I'm confused about your motivation, though. Why would a person work so hard and risk so much to be an objectively bad person? Is your character fanatically devoted to evilness like some Saturday morning cartoon villain?

'objectively bad ' ... well there's the part where D&D says dealing with Demons and making deals to get more powerfull is evil, it's not like I go around killing babies or anything, it's just that I am prepared to deal with anyone and do (nearly) anything to get more powerfull in order to beat the BBEG

[Ssin]

It's not so much that they are omniscient, well arguably with a few exceptions like gods of lore and knowledge and ovegods, of which Kord is not one. But they do know pretty much everything about what is important to them, or can know such merely by thinking about it. It just so happens that epic paladins and clerics tend to be important to them. It just so happens that you are standing right next and are an intimate friend of something of immense importance to him.

Check out the SRD section on deities. Read about intermediate deities and what they can do. See, especially, Portfolio Sense, Remote Sensing, Remote Communication. Oh, and alter reality, which most intermediate deities have.

Edit: Oh, I just looked up Kord. Looks like he prefers to send out titans rather than solars. So, well, there's that.

I just did that and I think my DM might not be aware of this, some nice abilities though...
Maybe I should point my DM to that overview, then again that would be much like digging my own grave :smalltongue:

[Slipperychicken]

'objectively bad ' ... well there's the part where D&D says dealing with Demons and making deals to get more powerfull is evil, it's not like I go around killing babies or anything, it's just that I am prepared to deal with anyone and do (nearly) anything to get more powerfull in order to beat the BBEG

Dealing with fiends is evil, yes, but one good or evil act won't necessarily change a character's alignment to match. Just as an Evil character can compare notes with an angel and still be Evil, a Good character can chat with a demon and still be Good (not that chatting with the personification of chaotic malevolence is a very good idea, mind you). An alignment shift reflects a big change in personality (or more often fixing a disconnect between alignment and worldview), which usually takes a while.


Alignment has more to do with moral outlook. Things like how morally low your character is willing to go to fulfill objectives (and to what extent he's willing to take risks and make sacrifices to do what's right rather than what's convenient), whether he's gathering power for necessity or greed, whether he's willing to let go of that power later, precisely what his motivations and priorities are, and so on. Such considerations all impact a characters' alignment.

[Ssin]

Alignment the greatest cause of discussions in D&D

Anyways, I have been sliding down this slope due to willingly dealing evil powers, allowing them to infuse me with powers (which I am definately not willing to give up) in exchange for services rendered.

Primary motivation would be to stop Tarazdun, secondary motivation which has started to grow
Overthrow Malcanteth and become Lord of the Succubi :smallcool:

Anyways I don't want to have this discussion start about what is / is not evil in regards to morality and in D&D, you can argue a lot of ways and it's pretty much a null point since it says CE on my sheet and I'm working towards becoming a half-fiend which are 'always evil'
I just want to make sure I got a story to tell the party and convince them (IC and preferably OOC aswell) that I am not evil / busy turning good so that I can continue using them to battle the BBEG or other things in my way.

As to the epic paladins & their deities and how the could / should communicate and what they could/would do with their level of power... That's up to the DM and those players, if the DM doesn't say 'Kord telepathically tells you this' or if the player isn't playing his paladin as a true paragorn of virtue and honor... well that's not really my concern (also the discussion as to whether or not that paladin should fall then is pretty much besides the point because that's the DM's decision in the end)

I could mention it in my talk with the DM, but as I've said before, that is much like digging my own grave / kicking my own shins, or I could mention it áfter I managed to secure myself against it, but having read through the deities powers it seems there is little I can do to combat it (short of becoming a deity myself)