Potentially Broken Prestige Class combos that were Never Meant to Be

[ArqArturo]

Kinda based on the Worst PrC thread, this is for certain levels, PrC features or other stuff you might get in a PrC, and when combined with something else, you can become... Perhaps not godlike, but certainly the next best thing.

I have two.

Either Warmage or Beguiler, combined with Rainbow Servant. It starts with 'I know all spells in my list' to "Tremble, for I have become Death!"

And, the obscure Anointed Knight, paired with either a Legacy Weapon, or a Specific magic item, or worse, an artifact. I know some in the thread have said to me that the combination cannot be done, but when I asked (a while ago) to a WoTC staff member via email (when you could ask them questions, I don't know if it's still possible), the response was pretty much this: "It's up to your DM, since we never consider X while making Y, but it can potentially work".

[Karnith]

I know that Hellfire Warlock together with Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster is a combo that a lot of people really don't like, though calling the interaction "broken" is a bit of a stretch.

[Snowbluff]

I know that Hellfire Warlock together with Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster is a combo that a lot of people really don't like, though "broken" is a stretch.

Fiend of Possession works here as well. Giving pretty sweet weapon bonuses past the usual +6 for cheap, and a bump on the DC for possession. Bonus Points if you have a FoP cohort.

[Venusaur]

Planar Shepard + Slow Time planes. Not the only broken thing, but one of the most flagrant.

Beholder Mage + PC's.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Ur-Priest and Prestige Paladin. Divine Gishery at it's finest.

Sublime Chord and Prestige Bard. I was supposed to give up Bardic Music?

[Nettlekid]

Spellguard of Silverymoon and War Weaver. Spellguard lets you cast any Personal-range defensive spell as a Touch spell on an ally. War Weaver lets you cast either harmless or willing only spells among your party at the cost of only a single spell slot, and as an added bonus, increases the range of those spells (Close to Medium, Touch to Close, etc. Cannot cast Personal spells to people). So now, assuming your DM decides that Personal spells have to be cast on a willing target (and they probably should, since you have to be willing to cast it on yourself), you can spread Personal buffs to your whole party at Close range.

[ArqArturo]

Spellguard of Silverymoon and War Weaver. Spellguard lets you cast any Personal-range defensive spell as a Touch spell on an ally. War Weaver lets you cast either harmless or willing only spells among your party at the cost of only a single spell slot, and as an added bonus, increases the range of those spells (Close to Medium, Touch to Close, etc. Cannot cast Personal spells to people). So now, assuming your DM decides that Personal spells have to be cast on a willing target (and they probably should, since you have to be willing to cast it on yourself), you can spread Personal buffs to your whole party at Close range.

So no Antimagic field on the Barbarian? I am sad :( .

[dspeyer]

Not sure this works, but Wilder+Crusader with Aura of Perfect Order to ignore Psychic Enervation and just Wild Surge everything.

IIRC, there's a warlock prc that gives major power boosts at the cost of con damage, and a vestige that makes you immune to con damage.

[Rubik]

Pretty much any manifesting PrC and wilder. The wilder's enervation "class feature" specifies your wilder level for how many power points you lose, which PrCs don't qualify as.

Anarchic initiate. Just...anarchic initiate. It's supposed to be a wilder prestige class, but the prereqs preclude finishing it off until epic if you start out as a wilder. It's much better for psions all the way around, like pretty much every other manifesting PrC. And you gain enervation, but none of your non-wilder levels count as wilder levels for that purpose, so half the downsides of the "class feature" don't do anything.

Erudites and manifesting PrCs. Everything about the erudite is based on your erudite levels, rather than, say, the level of the psionic powers you're learning. If you can manage to mitigate or otherwise get around the UPPD limitation (and there are ways), then the costs for learning new powers are virtually nil.

[Nettlekid]

So no Antimagic field on the Barbarian? I am sad :( .

Well, if your DM rules that AMF is a purely defensive spell (it doesn't fit into the criteria set down by Spellguard of Silverymoon, as a spell that increases AC or Saving Throws or grants HP by either healing or giving temp HP.) I guess you could make AMF count as that if you or your ally had a cursed item which lowered AC or Con/Dex/Wis, and as such, the AMF raises their AC or saving throw.

[Xervous]

mystic theurge + sha'ir. much argued, stupid if it works.

[Snowbluff]

Spell Dancer and Swiftblade work pretty well together.


So no Antimagic field on the Barbarian? I am sad :( .

If you are an arcane Arcer, you can shoot your Barbarian to give him AMF. :smalltongue:

[Fouredged Sword]

Ah, but there is a feat somewhere that makes all your buff spells grant a few tamp HP under a set of circumstances that can be replicated with an acorn of far travel.

Then you can AMF the barbarian.

[Aotrs Commander]

Shadow Sun Ninja and Any Class Which Has Undead (esp. Dread Necromancer/Pale Master). They don't even have to be the same character.

Infinite out-of-combat healing for no resources. For the dead and the living.

(Tap skeleton, deal negative energy damage, heal Undead. Next round, tap living, deal positive energy, heal living.)

I would say this broke the Dungeon version of Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth module, but the party crusader did that by having level-appropriate armour and shield.

[Spuddles]

Ur-Priest and Prestige Paladin. Divine Gishery at it's finest.

Aren't there some alignment issues there?


Erudites and manifesting PrCs. Everything about the erudite is based on your erudite levels, rather than, say, the level of the psionic powers you're learning. If you can manage to mitigate or otherwise get around the UPPD limitation (and there are ways), then the costs for learning new powers are virtually nil.

Don't erudites lose their ability to learn new powers when erudite level = level in other psionic classes?

[Vedhin]

Nobody has mentioned Shadowcrafter + Shacow Craft Mage? Because I doubt that >100% real shadow illusions was intended.

[JaronK]

Tainted Sorcerer + Anima Mage. Take con damage to get free metamagic... and then heal one point of con damage per round (thanks Naberius!). I'm a fan of Twinned Lahm's Finger Darts for that average 25 dex damage ranged attack with no save goodness. 6th level spell, but you take 4 con damage and 5 str damage when you do it. 9 rounds later you're fine but your enemy is paralyzed. That spell goes from last ditch attack to primary target killer with this combo.

Duskblade + Arcane Duelist. It's not amazing, but it's the best you're going to get with the AD. And let's face it, that capstone "make a bunch of mirror images that slaughter everyone" is amazing when combined with a Keen Enfeebling Rapier.

Binder + Hellfire Warlock. Another example of "sacking your con score for fun and profit!"

Crusader + Cleric (probably with Ruby Knight Vindicator). Because the spell that lets you treat a rolled 1 as a 2 combined with the stance that says if you roll the highest damage possible you get to roll again combined with a 1d2 weapon = infinite damage. Yehaw.

Shining Blade of Heironeous + a trash heap. It's the best way.

JaronK

[ryzouken]

Wu Jen Spellguard of Silverymoon.

Cast Transcend Mortality on your enemies, making them gods, then dismiss the spell causing them to die.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Aren't there some alignment issues there?

Oddly, no. While a good character can't take Ur-Priest levels, nothing states we can't advance Ur-Priest casting as a good character. And even weirder, Ur-Priest casting is not, by RAW, evil.

[EyethatBinds]

Shifter 13 Barbarian/2 Ranger/5 Weretouched Master with vow of poverty. Having a 48 Strength without magic can be pretty nasty. Actually I think that's almost exactly what the designers intended. Hmm...

[Amphetryon]

I vaguely recall some silly-broken combination that comes out of Warlock and Silver Key (Dragonmarked). DocRoc was tooling around with it, back in the day.

It's been long enough that I'm not 100% on the Warlock entry, but I know Silver Key was, ahem, key.

[Nettlekid]

Oddly, no. While a good character can't take Ur-Priest levels, nothing states we can't advance Ur-Priest casting as a good character. And even weirder, Ur-Priest casting is not, by RAW, evil.

You'll find some people who claim that if you lose prereqs to PrCs then you lose the benefits of them, as stated in CW and CAr, but other people who protest that those only apply to the PrCs in those books, and if it were true then we get into Schrodinger's Dragon Disciple territory. Personally I agree that losing prereqs in the form of feats (like if you were to DCFS them away) or skills (somehow) then it should apply, but alignment is so tenuous that I agree you should be able to convert. Also, like you said, Ur-Priests steal from all gods, not just Good ones. You should be able to make a CG Ur-Priest who playfully steals the magic from gods like Hextor, Nerull, and Vecna.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Ur-priest + Sublime Chord + Mystic Theurge (or other arcane + divine theurge like class you manage to qualify for) = double 9s and extremely wonky caster level.

[ArqArturo]

Shifter 13 Barbarian/2 Ranger/5 Weretouched Master with vow of poverty. Having a 48 Strength without magic can be pretty nasty. Actually I think that's almost exactly what the designers intended. Hmm...

Monks and Druids pretty much rock with Vow of Poverty. A friend had an Ex-monk/druid that was, quite honestly, pretty broken in paper. In roll, however, the guy was a pacifist that only rolled on his sleeves when there was absolutely no other choice (meaning: undead and outsiders).

[Nettlekid]

I vaguely recall some silly-broken combination that comes out of Warlock and Silver Key (Dragonmarked). DocRoc was tooling around with it, back in the day.

It's been long enough that I'm not 100% on the Warlock entry, but I know Silver Key was, ahem, key.

I don't get it. I can't see any ability that Silver Key grants which even sounds potentially broken, except maybe the whole "follow people through Phase Doors or go into a Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion," but I don't see how that works either.

[Khatoblepas]

Well, if your DM rules that AMF is a purely defensive spell (it doesn't fit into the criteria set down by Spellguard of Silverymoon, as a spell that increases AC or Saving Throws or grants HP by either healing or giving temp HP.) I guess you could make AMF count as that if you or your ally had a cursed item which lowered AC or Con/Dex/Wis, and as such, the AMF raises their AC or saving throw.

Magic of the Land heals 2*Spell level "in addition to the spell's effects" when you cast a spell, could you use that to add healing to any spell, and thus, any buff spell becomes a touch range spell?

[Karnith]

Monks and Druids pretty much rock with Vow of Poverty.
If by that you mean "Monk 1/Druid X with VoP," then sure, that's pretty viable, if not quite as good as a druid without VoP. Monk X with VoP is generally a really bad idea past about level 4 or so, though.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, and then all personal range spells become touch ranged spells, then war weaver makes all touch range buffs (and these all heal, so are buffs) into mass reach versions of themselves.

I think the build also used uncanny trickster to bump the maximum spell level for the weave to 7.

I think the build never got to 9th level spells, but was throwing around sanctum mage's lubrication between the spellcaster and his identical cohort to gain unlimited spell slots under 5th level for the whole party.

[Rubik]

Don't erudites lose their ability to learn new powers when erudite level = level in other psionic classes?They don't get the free 2 per level, but don't lose their ability to learn from other sources.

Though why they lose anything at all for multiclassing, even into a PrC, is beyond my ability to comprehend.

Meh. I'll just take levels in psion, take 3 levels in illithid savant (via Metamorphosis, along with Practiced Manifester) and grab the ability to learn powers and spells from anywhere, sans the UPPD. Better in gestalt, of course.

[Nettlekid]

They don't get the free 2 per level, but don't lose their ability to learn from other sources.

Though why they lose anything at all for multiclassing, even into a PrC, is beyond my ability to comprehend.

Meh. I'll just take levels in psion, take 3 levels in illithid savant (via Metamorphosis, along with Practiced Manifester) and grab the ability to learn powers and spells from anywhere, sans the UPPD. Better in gestalt, of course.

Er, I think it's just the opposite. They lose "the ability to add additional powers (above and beyond the two gained at each new erudite level) to his repertoire of powers known." That "above and beyond" suggests that they still get those two per level, but no more than that. So they lose the ability to learn new powers.

[JaronK]

If by that you mean "Monk 1/Druid X with VoP," then sure, that's pretty viable, if not quite as good as a druid without VoP. Monk X with VoP is generally a really bad idea past about level 2, though.

Not legal. Monks must be Lawful, Druids must be Neutral, so Druid/Monks must be Lawful Neutral. Thus they can't take Vow of Poverty.

JaronK

[Vaz]

@Karnith; incorrect. You can start off as Lawful Good, then become Neutral Good, stopping you from progressing Monk, but once you've gained all the abilities you need from monk, there's no reason why not to.

And really, if you start off as a Monk, it's easier to suggest an alignment change., they get sick of the stuffiness of their monastery, and embrace nature completely; hence neutrality. But they help fluffy wabbits cross the road etc, so become Exalted while doing so.

My favourite; Changeling with Racial Emulation = Illithid Savant.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Not as powerful as some of the stuff posted, but duskblade 13/initiate of the sevenfold veil 7 is pretty good. to get enough prerequisite spells for IotS by level 13 you need versatile spellcaster as duskblades can learn any spell they can cast. I like the idea of giving a heavy damage dealer like duskblade some battlefield control.

[Karnith]

Not legal. Monks must be Lawful, Druids must be Neutral, so Druid/Monks must be Lawful Neutral. Thus they can't take Vow of Poverty.

JaronK
As others have stated, it's perfectly legal (with an alignment change) as long as you don't plan to continue taking levels in Monk. Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#exMonks):
A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.

Like a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities.
(Emphasis mine)

[Khatoblepas]

My favourite; Changeling with Racial Emulation = Illithid Savant.

Illegal:


When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that humanoid's subtypes. Though you do not gain any of the humanoid's traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes (allowing you to use magic items or spells keyed to race, for example). You can also ignore the normal penalty on Disguise checks when disguising yourself as a different race (see the Disguise skill description, page 72 of the Player's Handbook). You can only emulate one race at a time, and you always retain the shapechanger subtype.

Illithids are Abberations.

Though, Chameleon/Shadowcraft Mage does sound interesting, if not particularily powerful. Maybe if you use a trick to get 9th level spells...

[JaronK]

Ah, sneaky. Though I think Unarmed Swordsage might work even better, and not require such tricks.

JaronK

[ArqArturo]

Not legal. Monks must be Lawful, Druids must be Neutral, so Druid/Monks must be Lawful Neutral. Thus they can't take Vow of Poverty.

JaronK

That is why I said Ex-monk.

Here's the PC's backstory:

Originally a Lawful Good monk with ties to a monastery that prided itself on 'physical purity and wholeness of mind', the monk had a vow of poverty, and all was working well right until later in the campaign (he was a level 4 at the time) we found out that the elders were actually hoarding money and items to gain power. The monk, disappointed, left the monastery and searched for other ways to gain enlightenment, and in the game we found a druid that took him as a mentor, thus he switched from lawful good to neutral good, and having a few levels in Druid. Also, I was playing a halfling druid/wizard (I was going with Arcane Heirophant) and constantly kept telling him that unspoiled nature could help him achieve enlightenment, rather than unnatural philosophies... I said this as I had Wizard levels. Yes, the irony of it all did not reach my halfling (he's true neutral) since he's so small.

[Rubik]

Er, I think it's just the opposite. They lose "the ability to add additional powers (above and beyond the two gained at each new erudite level) to his repertoire of powers known." That "above and beyond" suggests that they still get those two per level, but no more than that. So they lose the ability to learn new powers.Huh. So it goes. I really need to start rereading these things before I assume.

Okay, then. Another combo. Gestalt. Psion (with your choice of discipline) all the way up on one side, with the other heading into illithid savant via Metamorphosis, then go uncanny trickster and legacy champion. Grab the special ability of the Magic Mantle, either through an ACF (if you can manage it; perhaps go mantled psywar for a few levels on your non-psion side) or through the feat in CPsi. Grab the stp erudite's ability to learn powers and spells, the metamind's font of power capstone, and the rainbow servant's ability to add cleric spells to your spells/powers list. Now you can manifest all the psion/wilder powers and cast sorc/wiz and cleric spells, and with font of power and the Temporal Reiteration power, you literally have infinite power points, all day long. All you need now is to head into epic to steal the prestige ranger, paladin, and bard abilities to learn from those classes. Now you're only missing out on psywar, druid, and a few oddball classes, which you can try to learn through Psychic Chirurugery, Expanded Knowledge, and Extra Spell (prior to PsiReffing them out). Add two levels of chameleon to learn a new power or spell every single day to add permanently to your repertoire, or get a cohort with said PrC.

Anyone know how to get additional powers and spells on your lists?

[edit] Really, any class would be broken with illithid savant. And that includes caster classes, despite the lost CLs.

[Dayaz]

My DM let me do this in a one shot campaign. PF Half Giant Race, lets you be a lawful barbarian.

Lion Totem Barbarian 3
Monk 1
Ninja (I think 3?) to get the 3.5 ACF Deflecting Strike
Barbarian x
Frenzied Beserker x

He was such a furious barbarian, that he had to kill with his bare hands, and when that poor sorceress threw that fireball at him he backhanded it back at her

[123456789blaaa]

Illegal:



Illithids are Abberations.

Though, Chameleon/Shadowcraft Mage does sound interesting, if not particularily powerful. Maybe if you use a trick to get 9th level spells...

That's why you use minor change shape to take on the appearance of an [Incarnate Construct] [Effigy] (or [Dustform]) Mind Flayer and not a regular one (incidentally this also works for other PRC's like Slaad Brooder and Yuan-Ti Cultist). It's ambiguous (because of a lack of a definition of "race" in dnd) but not flat out illegal.

[The Viscount]

I'll go ahead and say the obvious one. Warshaper + Changeling, Tibbit, or Hengeyokai. I doubt that it was supposed to be so easy to enter the class, and the infinite natural attacks are significantly more broken when you can stay in that form forever.

[Wings of Peace]

Er, I think it's just the opposite. They lose "the ability to add additional powers (above and beyond the two gained at each new erudite level) to his repertoire of powers known." That "above and beyond" suggests that they still get those two per level, but no more than that. So they lose the ability to learn new powers.

I would probably field the argument that only class levels not prestige class levels count toward the Exception clause and even then the class levels would have to be from a psionic class. Of course this all depends on whether or read "psionic class" as meaning just classes (I feel this is the raw) or prestige classes as well (this is probably the rai *shrug*)


Exception: If a character with erudite levels gains at least as many levels in another psionic class as he has in his erudite class, he permanently loses the ability to add additional powers (above and beyond the two gained at each new erudite level) to his repertoire of powers known.

[Chronos]

Prestige classes are classes. They're not base classes, but nobody said anything about that.

Oh, and someone mentioned Arcane Duelist. The other situation where they're really good is in gestalt, where you can put a real martial class on the other side to give them full BAB etc. in addition to their stacking magic weapon etc. And having the duskblade's level 13 full-attack channeling together with AD's level 10 attacking mirror images is just sweet.

[Vaz]

Illegal:



Illithids are Abberations.

As stated, emulating an Incarnate effigy Mindflayer gets you there.

[nedz]

Either Warmage or Beguiler, combined with Rainbow Servant. It starts with 'I know all spells in my list' to "Tremble, for I have become Death!"
Beguiler 5 / Rainbow Servant 10 casts Divine and Arcane spells
Beguiler 5 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Mystic Theurge gets double 9's a level early.
Also works with Warmage etc.

[Spuddles]

Oddly, no. While a good character can't take Ur-Priest levels, nothing states we can't advance Ur-Priest casting as a good character. And even weirder, Ur-Priest casting is not, by RAW, evil.

Spell Focus (Evil) requires an evil alignment. But I suppose it still works, you just can't take more levels of Ur Priest after you go into Prestige Paladin.

Interesting.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Beguiler 5 / Rainbow Servant 10 casts Divine and Arcane spells
Beguiler 5 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Mystic Theurge gets double 9's a level early.
Also works with Warmage etc.

Don't you mean beguiler 6 / rainbow servant 10? Or are you talking early access shenanigans.

[Nettlekid]

Sorry, how does anything with Rainbow Servant 10 get 9th level spells unless you're using something like Sublime Chord? It loses four caster levels.

[Spuddles]

Sorry, how does anything with Rainbow Servant 10 get 9th level spells unless you're using something like Sublime Chord? It loses four caster levels.

Text trumps table.

[Nettlekid]

Oh wow, and the text says "when you gain a level," not "when you gain a level except for 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th". Wow. That's dumb. But right you are, text trumps table. Rainbow Servant is suddenly a lot better than I thought.

[nedz]

Don't you mean beguiler 6 / rainbow servant 10? Or are you talking early access shenanigans.
You're right :smallredface:
Beguiler 6 / Rainbow servant 10 / MT 2 = Level 20 casting.

[Nettlekid]

Eh, no reason not to use Sanctum Spell to cast your 2nd level spell as 3rd level, then DFCS it out. Actually, if you had a Flaw or were Human, you could take Precocious Apprentice and Sanctum Spell and go into Rainbow Servant as early as level 2! And you don't waste any feats, because as soon as you can cast level 3 spells on your own you can DFCS those two feats to more useful ones.

Why use Mystic Theurge? At least pick a dip that'll have some class features.

[Karnith]

Why use Mystic Theurge? At least pick a dip that'll have some class features.
Because (in theory) it progresses your spellcasting at twice the normal rate, which is generally better than class features. Particularly when it means you get 9th-level spells a level earlier than usual.

[NeoPhoenix0]

What does DFCS stand for?

[Karnith]

What does DFCS stand for?
It refers to the Chaos Shuffle; alternate castings of Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos (spells from Fiendish Codex I) to switch out feats you have for whatever feats you want.

[Nettlekid]

Oh, I see. Hmm, I'm not in agreement that any class can progress another class doubly quickly (same goes for Ultimage Magus), but I know that's a popular thought.
I guess a Beguiler 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Mystic Theurge 9 would cast as a level 28 Beguiler?
Actually, what use is that? What good is it to have casting higher than level 20?

EDIT: And oops, I meant DCFS, not DFCS. I keep calling it the "Dark Feat Chaos Shuffle" in my head, which is quite wrong.

[Karnith]

Oh, I see. Hmm, I'm not in agreement that any class can progress another class doubly quickly (same goes for Ultimage Magus), but I know that's a popular thought.
I guess a Beguiler 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Mystic Theurge 9 would cast as a level 28 Beguiler?
Actually, what use is that? What good is it to have casting higher than level 20?
Spontaneous casting off of the Cleric list + high caster level = really high CL Holy Words. Not worth making an entire build around, but fun nonetheless. Well, "fun," anyway.

It's also very strong before you top out on beguiler casting, since a Beguiler 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Mystic Theurge 4 (with the double-casting) would get 9th-level spells, two levels before most classes get access to them.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Oh, I see. Hmm, I'm not in agreement that any class can progress another class doubly quickly (same goes for Ultimage Magus), but I know that's a popular thought.
I guess a Beguiler 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Mystic Theurge 9 would cast as a level 28 Beguiler?
Actually, what use is that? What good is it to have casting higher than level 20?

EDIT: And oops, I meant DCFS, not DFCS. I keep calling it the "Dark Feat Chaos Shuffle" in my head, which is quite wrong.

Why go that high? Why not multi-class out with your last four levels?

[Nettlekid]

Spontaneous casting off of the Cleric list + high caster level = really high CL Holy Word.

Hmm, I dunno, I think using Ultimate Magus along with Sublime Chord, Bloodline Levels, and maybe Master Spellthief splashed in can get a much higher CL than that. And then Arcane Disciple to get Holy Word.


Why go that high? Why not multi-class out with your last four levels?

I don't think I'd go with Mystic Theurge at all. You can toss in nine levels of any arcane- or divine-progressing PrC, end up with level 20 spontaneous casting of all Cleric spells, and be well off for it.

[Arundel]

Spell Focus (Evil) requires an evil alignment. But I suppose it still works, you just can't take more levels of Ur Priest after you go into Prestige Paladin.

Interesting.

Keep in mind, if you impose the "must always meet prerequisites" rule on Ur-Priests, there can never be someone with more than one level of Ur-Priest.

[Manly Man]

I remember having come up with something that was quite cheesy in gestalt, and it involved having a Sorcerer//Wizard with the levels being arranged somehow to allow me to take all levels of Incantatrix, Archmage, and Ultimate Magus in one non-epic build with full caster levels in all of them; we were allowed to have multiple prestige classes, so there was that to go on. Was a Silverbrow human with two flaws, and metamagic out the wazoo.

Also, before anyone calls me on it, it says that dual-progression classes are not against the rules, but recommended against for the headaches they can cause, as well as defeating the 'purpose' of gestalt.

[nedz]

Because (in theory) it progresses your spellcasting at twice the normal rate, which is generally better than class features. Particularly when it means you get 9th-level spells a level earlier than usual.

It's RAW cheese, though actually
Beguiler 6 / Rainbow servant 10 / Mindbender 1 / Divine Oracle 1 / Contemplative 1 / Seeker of the Misty Isle 1
might be better overall — however you could have taken Divine Oracle at level 6, but only if you are cosmopolitan or educated.
Beguiler 5 / Divine Oracle 1 / Rainbow servant 10 / XXXX

[ArcturusV]

I'd say anything that fully advances or one off dips Maho-Bujin could end up being potentially broken on a Fighter type character. The one level dip gets you Taint Suppression, changes your type to Outsider (So crit/precision immunities, as a Shadowlands type you're immune to Taint effects as well), and gives you attacks on +3 BAB instead of +5. If you combined that with some sort of two weapon fighting based type like Dervish, that could become a true flurry of death. Or anything with really good precision damage base.

10th level in Maho-Bujin means that you're a Fighter, with full BAB (And perks mentioned above, plus gaining free Con and HP when you kill someone, and a crappy DR 10/Magic, and adding your Taint Score to attack rolls), plus have the spellcasting of a 10th level Maho-Tsukai (Hello instant access to 5th level spells! Which are powered by minor HP sacrifice and can free Metamagic with Con Sacrifice... oh wait, don't I get Con for killing people with the Maho-Bujin? Why yes I do)... which could probably make for a really, really wrong entry into a Gish PrC like Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion, etc. You could pull off a level 12 entry into said Gish Class with 5th level spell casting, plus full BAB (And with a Full Attack pattern that would likely look like +26/+23/+20/+17 at realistic minimum, not counting magic, possibly much higher)....

I dunno, Maho-Bujin's been on my mind lately. Kinda wanna run one.

[Mithril Leaf]

The classic Rainbow Warsnake most likely wasn't intended at all, but you can always go Warmage 1/ Rainbow Servant 10/ Sacred Exorcist 1 for all the perks of a spontaneous cleric of appropriate level with divine metamagic and 8 more levels to play with. If you have a change of heart at that level you can also jump into Zhentarium Skymage for a mount that has HD based on your huge Charisma.

[Vaz]

I'd say anything that fully advances or one off dips Maho-Bujin could end up being potentially broken on a Fighter type character. The one level dip gets you Taint Suppression, changes your type to Outsider (So crit/precision immunities,
Really?Letters

[NeoPhoenix0]

I'd say anything that fully advances or one off dips Maho-Bujin could end up being potentially broken on a Fighter type character. The one level dip gets you Taint Suppression, changes your type to Outsider (So crit/precision immunities, as a Shadowlands type you're immune to Taint effects as well), and gives you attacks on +3 BAB instead of +5. If you combined that with some sort of two weapon fighting based type like Dervish, that could become a true flurry of death. Or anything with really good precision damage base.

10th level in Maho-Bujin means that you're a Fighter, with full BAB (And perks mentioned above, plus gaining free Con and HP when you kill someone, and a crappy DR 10/Magic, and adding your Taint Score to attack rolls), plus have the spellcasting of a 10th level Maho-Tsukai (Hello instant access to 5th level spells! Which are powered by minor HP sacrifice and can free Metamagic with Con Sacrifice... oh wait, don't I get Con for killing people with the Maho-Bujin? Why yes I do)... which could probably make for a really, really wrong entry into a Gish PrC like Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion, etc. You could pull off a level 12 entry into said Gish Class with 5th level spell casting, plus full BAB (And with a Full Attack pattern that would likely look like +26/+23/+20/+17 at realistic minimum, not counting magic, possibly much higher)....

I dunno, Maho-Bujin's been on my mind lately. Kinda wanna run one.

K, I have a bunch of questions, but i'm only gonna ask a couple. How does 1 level of Maho-Bujin make you an outsider? Since when are outsiders immune to crit/precision damage?

[ArcturusV]

The latter? Probably me misremembering something. Think it was probably the fact that most Shadowlands stuff is Undead, and thinking that applied to all Shadowlands stuff. First level says they gain the Shadowlands type. Shadowlands is considered "Outsider". Despite being a physical location you can walk to if you're a prime material plane type, it's considered extraplanar. Sure you can walk into it, but for all intents and purposes it's put up as being another plane.

[NeoPhoenix0]

The latter? Probably me misremembering something. Think it was probably the fact that most Shadowlands stuff is Undead, and thinking that applied to all Shadowlands stuff. First level says they gain the Shadowlands type. Shadowlands is considered "Outsider". Despite being a physical location you can walk to if you're a prime material plane type, it's considered extraplanar. Sure you can walk into it, but for all intents and purposes it's put up as being another plane.

Oh, you don't gain the outsider type in that case, you only gain the extraplaner subtype. Huge difference.

[ArcturusV]

Ah. Okay then. Doubly my bad.

[Wings of Peace]

Prestige classes are classes. They're not base classes, but nobody said anything about that.

Even if so I'd still argue that they are not technically psionic classes because they themselves do not grant the ability to manifest. It's the same principle as why a theurge class can't progress another casting prc, because the prc itself doesn't grant the ability.

[Raendyn]

Text trumps table.

Dont rly know any DM that follows this specific text though :L(.

Save the fact that Servant is twice mentione as a non full caster PrC in the same book, didnt WotC Customer service say he is 6/10 too?

[NeoPhoenix0]

Dont rly know any DM that follows this specific text though :L(.

Save the fact that Servant is twice mentione as a non full caster PrC in the same book, didnt WotC Customer service say he is 6/10 too?

WotC isn't known for being correct on their own material. The FAQ/ sage advice is evidence of that. They could have errataed it but the errata doesn't include anything on this class. Finally if your DM does go with the table try using the theurge trick to catch up. (Not that such a DM would let you get away with that either, but you never know.)

[Raendyn]

WotC isn't known for being correct on their own material. The FAQ/ sage advice is evidence of that. They could have errataed it but the errata doesn't include anything on this class. Finally if your DM does go with the table try using the theurge trick to catch up. (Not that such a DM would let you get away with that either, but you never know.)

I include myself to those labeling RServant 6/10. As I said the book mentions him twice as a non-fullcaster in the PrC descriptions. So if we have to check if the mistake was on the table or the text, there are two more text pieces that support 6/10. And no experienced DM would rate the Capstone not worthy to lose Spellcasting progression.

And correct or not on their matterial, CustServ is the Closest to errata we have.

RulesLaweyers could make it work though, no argue on that.:smallwink:

[Karnith]

It's RAW cheese, though actually
By "in theory," I meant that it's probably not going to fly in a game, not that it's not RAW.

And correct or not on their matterial, CustServ is the Closest to errata we have.
I would say that the Complete Divine errata (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) is the closest to errata we have, but that's just me.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Spell Focus (Evil) requires an evil alignment.

Nope. Spell Focus has no prerequisites, you just select Spell Focus (Evil) and be done with it. Alignment isn't taken into account.

[Piggy Knowles]

Nope. Spell Focus has no prerequisites, you just select Spell Focus (Evil) and be done with it. Alignment isn't taken into account.

Actually, Spell Focus (evil) is a different feat than standard Spell Focus, despite sharing a name, and does require a matching alignment. Check it out in Complete Divine.

[JaronK]

Annoying thing about the Rainbow Servant... in translated versions, sometimes it's 6/10 and sometimes it's 10/10. Evidently, the translators couldn't figure it out.

Also, funny note: base classes are the 11 classes in the PHB. There are no others. Standard classes are the rest of the classes you might think of when you say base class. Check it out... the books are actually pretty consistent about this. For example, check out the PHB2 and Dungeonscape mentions on the topic.

JaronK

[Sgt. Cookie]

Actually, Spell Focus (evil) is a different feat than standard Spell Focus, despite sharing a name, and does require a matching alignment. Check it out in Complete Divine.

Huh. Turns out I've been doing it wrong the whole time.

[Manly Man]

Pretty much any Frenzied Berserker with Righteous Wrath gets to be on this list, so long as your DM rules that if it applis to rage, it applies to frenzy (which does at least make sense, in my opinion).

[ArcturusV]

I think by RAW it does. Least I know it works like that for things like Bear Warrior, you can use a Frenzy to enter bear form, or a rage, doesn't matter.

[Tvtyrant]

Spelldancer + Persist Spell. Who cares how long it takes to cast the spell when you do it in the morning as a buff?

[NeoPhoenix0]

Weird thing I just noticed. By RAW, unless you need two for prerequisites, you shouldn't need to take the spell focus (chaos, evil, good, or law) more than once. If you take it once you benefit from any alignment you have reguardless of what alignment the feat is as long as you continue to qualify for it.


Benefit: Add +1 to the DC for all saving throws against
any of your spells that have an alignment descriptor (chaos, evil, good, or lawful) that matches your alignment. This bonus does not stack with any other bonus from Spell Focus feats.

Your alignment, not the alignment of the feat.

[ArqArturo]

Weird thing I just noticed. By RAW, unless you need two for prerequisites, you shouldn't need to take the spell focus (chaos, evil, good, or law) more than once. If you take it once you benefit from any alignment you have reguardless of what alignment the feat is as long as you continue to qualify for it.



Your alignment, not the alignment of the feat.

So a True Neutral wizard just kicks buckets while destroying his enemies?.

[NeoPhoenix0]

So a True Neutral wizard just kicks buckets while destroying his enemies?.

Not sure I get you. A true nuetral wizard can't qualify for this feat even once and doesn't have an alignment that matches a descriptor anyway.

To clarify by RAW if a CE wizard took spell focus evil he would receive a +1 to the DCs of both chaotic spells and evil spells because they match his alignment even though he only took the feat for the evil alignment. If he later became LE he would similarly gain +1 to DCs of law and evil spells. It's just some poor word choice on WotC's end, which often results in RAW shenanigans.

[Rubik]

Not sure I get you. A true nuetral wizard can't qualify for this feat even once and doesn't have an alignment that matches a descriptor anyway.

To clarify by RAW if a CE wizard took spell focus evil he would receive a +1 to the DCs of both chaotic spells and evil spells because they match his alignment even though he only took the feat for the evil alignment. If he later became LE he would similarly gain +1 to DCs of law and evil spells. It's just some poor word choice on WotC's end, which often results in RAW shenanigans.What about a Lawful Good succubus? Would she get all four alignments?

[NeoPhoenix0]

What about a Lawful Good succubus? Would she get all four alignments?

That's actually a very good question. The feat's benefit is an effect so a succubus must be treated as if it were chaotic and evil; it also has the lawful and good alignment so by RAW i think the answer is yes.

Edit: Although since the prerequisite isn't an effect, She must have have the alignment of the feat she took. In this case she must have either the spell focus good or spell focus law feat in order to benefit.

[ArqArturo]

Not sure I get you. A true nuetral wizard can't qualify for this feat even once and doesn't have an alignment that matches a descriptor anyway.

To clarify by RAW if a CE wizard took spell focus evil he would receive a +1 to the DCs of both chaotic spells and evil spells because they match his alignment even though he only took the feat for the evil alignment. If he later became LE he would similarly gain +1 to DCs of law and evil spells. It's just some poor word choice on WotC's end, which often results in RAW shenanigans.

Well, I meant that True Neutral Wizard cannot qualify for an Alignment Focus. Although, come to think of it, I think that's the last of a wizard's problems.


What about a Lawful Good succubus? Would she get all four alignments?

Where would you get a Lawful Good Succubus?.

[Karnith]

Where would you get a Lawful Good Succubus?.
Right here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a).

[Rubik]

Where would you get a Lawful Good Succubus?.Here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a)

[edit] Ack! Paladin'd!

[NeoPhoenix0]

Well, I meant that True Neutral Wizard cannot qualify for an Alignment Focus. Although, come to think of it, I think that's the last of a wizard's problems.



Where would you get a Lawful Good Succubus?.

Having alignment subtypes doesn't prevent you from changing your alignment.

[ArcturusV]

Just make sure you don't slip into Emo "Woe is me, I am an outcast among my own kind for being Good, and untrusted by those I would protect because of my race..." sort of thing.

... Drizzl...

... grr...

[Nettlekid]

Having alignment subtypes doesn't prevent you from changing your alignment.

Does it not? I would have thought that being literally composed out of physical manifestation of an alignment would kind of force you to be of that alignment.

Then again, WotC is very inconsistent with regard to whether alignment is simply mental and ethical, or a literal entity, or whatever.

[Raendyn]

At least in BoED even the high ritual that turns anyone into Good, fails against creatures with evil descriptor.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Does it not? I would have thought that being literally composed out of physical manifestation of an alignment would kind of force you to be of that alignment.

Then again, WotC is very inconsistent with regard to whether alignment is simply mental and ethical, or a literal entity, or whatever.

check it out:

Evil Subtype

A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above).

It's the same for the other alignment subtypes.

[Chronos]

At least in BoED even the high ritual that turns anyone into Good, fails against creatures with evil descriptor.
But then again, that ritual also doesn't do anything for anyone else, either. It can't be used on [evil] creatures, but its sole effect is to apply the Sanctified template (and it's the only way to apply said template), which can only be applied to an [evil] base creature.

[Karnith]

Does it not? I would have thought that being literally composed out of physical manifestation of an alignment would kind of force you to be of that alignment.
Well, if it did, there would never have been any fallen celestials in the D&Dverse, and it is an established fact that those exist (e.g. Baalzebul, Lord of the Seventh, who was once the archon Triel). So there is precedence for creatures with an alignment subtype changing alignments.

[NeoPhoenix0]

But then again, that ritual also doesn't do anything for anyone else, either. It can't be used on [evil] creatures, but its sole effect is to apply the Sanctified template (and it's the only way to apply said template), which can only be applied to an [evil] base creature.

No the template can only be applied to a base creature with the evil alignment, but fails against the [Evil] subtype.

[ArqArturo]

No the template can only be applied to a base creature with the evil alignment, but fails against the [Evil] subtype.

I was going to point that out, especially since the template uses a red dragon as an example for the template.

EDIT: Also, I just realized that a Warmage with levels of Exalted Arcanist could potencially also go for Sacred Exorcits, and fluff-wise, it makes sense. The problem is the spell requirement.

[Karnith]

No the template can only be applied to a base creature with the evil alignment, but fails against the [Evil] subtype.
My favorite part is that, after saying that the Sanctified template can't be applied to outsiders with the evil subtype, it says that Sanctified outsiders lose the baatezu, tanar'ri, or yugoloth subtypes. Yes, yes, Savage Species rituals. Still dumb.

[Manly Man]

Have a dragon use his Sorcerer casting as a prerequisite to start taking levels in Incantatrix.

[mattie_p]

I was going to point that out, especially since the template uses a red dragon as an example for the template.

EDIT: Also, I just realized that a Warmage with levels of Exalted Arcanist could potencially also go for Sacred Exorcits, and fluff-wise, it makes sense. The problem is the spell requirement.

Warmage X + Rainbow Servant 10 + Sacred Exorcist?

[TuggyNE]

[edit] Ack! Paladin'd!

Is that the first time that has ever been said in this context?

[Rubik]

Is that the first time that has ever been said in this context?What, in regards to getting one-upped for linking to WotC's succubus paladin on an edit made AFTER the following post?

It's a pretty specific context, so... Signs point to "maybe."

[NeoPhoenix0]

Given that spells written in your wizard spellbook are spells known (PHB glossary) and that the versatile spellcaster feat lets you cast any spell you know by giving up two spell slots of one level lower.

wizard 1/beguiler 6/rainbow servant 10/x levels that advance beguiler casting 4

lets you cast any cleric spell, any beguiler spell, any good, air, and law domain spell, and any spell above level 0 in your wizard spellbook spontaneously as a beguiler.

[Rubik]

Given that spells written in your wizard spellbook are spells known (PHB glossary) and that the versatile spellcaster feat lets you cast any spell you know by giving up two spell slots of one level lower.

wizard 1/beguiler 6/rainbow servant 10/x levels that advance beguiler casting 4

lets you cast any cleric spell, any beguiler spell, any good, air, and law domain spell, and any spell above level 0 in your wizard spellbook spontaneously as a beguiler.Does the same caveat apply to archivists? If so, skip wizard and rainbow servant entirely and go for the REALLY powerful PrCs.

[edit] In fact, go archivist 1/beguiler 1/warmage 1/mystic theurge 10/true necromancer 7 with early entry for lots of lower level spell slots to power your higher level spells.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Does the same caveat apply to archivists? If so, skip wizard and rainbow servant entirely and go for the REALLY powerful PrCs.

[edit] In fact, go archivist 1/beguiler 1/warmage 1/mystic theurge 10/true necromancer 7 with early entry for lots of lower level spell slots to power your higher level spells.

The rules to not explicitly say the archivists prayerbook are spells known like it does with the wizard, but it is reasonable to assume so. Note a warmage and bequiler do not know their spells until they have the spell slots to cast them normally.

Note: in any case, this use of the versatile spellcaster feat is considered very cheesy and likely to get banned since this area of optimization is a good contender for being named a tier zero.

[Crasical]

And, the obscure Anointed Knight, paired with either a Legacy Weapon, or a Specific magic item, or worse, an artifact.

How does that work, exactly? You pick up legacy weapon at 3, advance it to +1 via the legacy weapon rules at 4th or 5th, found it as a least legacy item at 6th, and then it becomes Priceless and can't benefit from the feat anymore, but you can make it hard to break or intelligent/poisonous/good?

I don't know if I'd call that overpowered...

[ArqArturo]

How does that work, exactly? You pick up legacy weapon at 3, advance it to +1 via the legacy weapon rules at 4th or 5th, found it as a least legacy item at 6th, and then it becomes Priceless and can't benefit from the feat anymore, but you can make it hard to break or intelligent/poisonous/good?

I don't know if I'd call that overpowered...

But it's just a weird/awesome thing that the designers certainly weren't thinking of it.

Also, since we're in the subject, long ago I wanted to make a divine gish, along the lines of a really powerful mix between Vampire Hunter D and Constantine. So I went with an illumian cleric with levels in Radiant Servant of Pelor and Sacred Exorcist. Here's the thing, the Radiant Servant, a semi-exalted (they describe it in such a way, anyways) character that is a powerful servant of the god of healing, and mercy, and sunshine, and puppies and rainbows and unicorns, and has a HD of d6... Gets Martial Weapon Proficency, and full Armor/Shield proficencies, while the Sacred Exorcist, a character that is supposed to go down and dirty with the bleakest of enemies, doesn't.

I never complained anyways, so you saw a 12th-level illumian wielding a blessed falchion and out-damaging the barbarian and healing like nuts.

Sneak Attack edit: Also, just as a tidbit, a two levels in ninja helps the druid a long way (invisible pouncing dire lion).

[Mithril Leaf]

Sneak Attack edit: Also, just as a tidbit, a two levels in ninja helps the druid a long way (invisible pouncing dire lion).

That's like saying that 2 levels in monk also helps the druid. Adding 18 levels of druid helps the other class, not the 2 levels of not druid helping the druid.

[TuggyNE]

What, in regards to getting one-upped for linking to WotC's succubus paladin on an edit made AFTER the following post?

It's a pretty specific context, so... Signs point to "maybe."

Using "Paladin'd!" as a synonym for ninja'd.

[JaronK]

A note about Spell Focus Evil: It works great for Tainted Sorcerers, since all their spells are Evil. Whee!

JaronK

[Sith_Happens]

A note about Spell Focus Evil: It works great for Tainted Sorcerers, since all their spells are Evil. Whee!

JaronK

Because they totally need that extra +1 save DC.

[Arbane]

Because they totally need that extra +1 save DC.

This thread is for indulging in the most mind-boggling of munchkinism. And the First Rule of Munchkinism is "ALWAYS do whatever gets the most plusses."

[Rubik]

This thread is for indulging in the most mind-boggling of munchkinism. And the First Rule of Munchkinism is "ALWAYS do whatever gets the most plusses."I believe the FRoM is "do whatever it takes to 'win the game,' including cheating."

[JaronK]

Honestly, for a Tainted Sorcerer you probably just want more metamagics since it's so often combined with Naberius for free metamagic anyway. That or Easy Metamagic so you can use more metamagics on a given spell. Or Arcane Disciple.

But hey, +1 to save DCs might help... what if someone rolls a 19 on their save? Can't have that.

JaronK

[NeoPhoenix0]

I believe the FRoM is "do whatever it takes to 'win the game,' including cheating."

No, think like a munchkin for a moment. Not hard for people who are munchkins. What would they write as the FRoM. You see it isn't cheating if you don't get caught, so obviously the FRoM is "don't get caught." It works on multiple levels too.

Edit:

But hey, +1 to save DCs might help... what if someone rolls a 19 on their save? Can't have that.

A DC 19 spell? What are you hitting him with, a cantrip?

[Vedhin]

But hey, +1 to save DCs might help... what if someone rolls a 19 on their save? Can't have that.

The +1 is to help beat other munchkins, obviously.

[ArqArturo]

A DC 19 spell? What are you hitting him with, a cantrip?

Ok, a 12th level grey elf wizard (universal school, no specialization) with optimized intelligence (20 at the start) could achieve a DC in a 7th level spell of...? My guess is 21, 23 at tops.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Ok, a 12th level grey elf wizard (universal school, no specialization) with optimized intelligence (20 at the start) could achieve a DC in a 7th level spell of...? My guess is 21, 23 at tops.

Your 12th level grey elf wizard will have added 3 to his int due to level up and must be assumed to have at least a +4 int item if not a +6. finally he can afford a +1 manuel. So he has an int of 27-30 for a cantrip DC of 18-20.

Edit: So his highest level of spell (6th level) has a DC of 26 tops.

[Karnith]

Ok, a 12th level grey elf wizard (universal school, no specialization) with optimized intelligence (20 at the start) could achieve a DC in a 7th level spell of...? My guess is 21, 23 at tops.
I'm not sure how you could guess that, given that 7th-level spells have save DCs of 17+Int bonus, and Int 20 is a +5 bonus, meaning that even if he never cared to boost his Int score a 7th-level spell would have a save DC of 22.

Of course, absent cheese a 12th-level character can only cast 6th-level spells, but:
Int = 20 + 3 level-up + 3 age + 6 item = Int 32 (+11 bonus; though if you don't feel like needing buffs to your physical ability scores you can just be middle-aged for Int 30, or +10)
DC for a 6th-level spell = 10 + 11 Int + 6 spell level. DC 27, easy.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I'm not sure how you could assume that, given that 7th-level spells have save DCs of 17+Int bonus, and Int 20 is a +5 bonus, meaning that even if he never improved his Int score a 7th-level spell would have a save DC of 22.

Of course, absent cheese a 12th-level character can only cast 6th-level spells, but:
Int = 20 + 3 level-up + 3 age + 6 item = Int 32 (+11 bonus)
DC for a 6th-level spell = 10 + 11 Int + 6 spell level. DC 27, easy.

I knew I was missing something, age.

[Karnith]

I knew I was missing something, age.
Yeah, though being venerable kind of sucks if you don't have a way to mitigate it (through Incantatrix persisted buffs or something). -6 age penalty to Con and Dex is not exactly where you want to be.

Luckily, wizards get to do everything in style.

[ArqArturo]

Yeah, though being venerable kind of sucks if you don't have a way to mitigate it (through Incantatrix persisted buffs or something). -6 age penalty to Con and Dex is not exactly where you want to be.

Luckily, wizards get to do everything in style.

And this is why I'm so afraid of the Optimization boards (that, and my small collection of 3.5 books) :smallbiggrin: .

[Vaz]

Between Craft Contingent Nerveskitter/Time Stop and Persisted Buffs granting HP, there should be no issue.