Loosing PrC prerequisites

[Melcar]

After openng the Box of Pandora (Psychic Reformation), I have thought about the following.

By meeting the prerequisites of a PrC, as normal, one would then advance in level. When finished with the class, lets say Archmage, you use Phychic Reformation to alter the required feats necessary for Archmage. What then happens? Do you lose the Archmage abilities? Or are the prerequisites just what it sounds like? Not required (feats, abilities etc.), but pre-requisites, so only requirements for starting/beginning/ accessing a class, no staying at/on/in a class???

Thanks!:smallbiggrin:

[Weyroc]

You lose the class features, if I am not mistaken.

Also, I believe you lose the prerequisites, not loose them...sorry for my grammar fascism.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You have no idea the can of worms you just hit with a sledge-hammer.

Suffice it to say there is no small amount of debate over this question and that the only answer that has any real meaning is this one:

Ask your DM.

[Mr.Bookworm]

This is one of those questions that gets argued endlessly, because there's not really a clear answer.

Here's a short discussion from a few months that has most of the salient points. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253348)

I'm with the crowd that interprets the CWar ruling as being omniapplicable, personally. You therefore lose your class features and can't advance any farther if you lose the prereqs.


Also, I believe you lose the prerequisites, not loose them...sorry for my grammar fascism.

Correct. "Loosing" PrC prerequisites would mean that you're setting them free or shooting them out of a bow.

...admittedly, I think there are a few PrCs with prereqs that you could shoot out a bow.

[Melcar]

You lose the class features, if I am not mistaken.

Also, I believe you lose the prerequisites, not loose them...sorry for my grammar fascism.

Apology accepted!


You have no idea the can of worms you just hit with a sledge-hammer.

Suffice it to say there is no small amount of debate over this question and that the only answer that has any real meaning is this one:

Ask your DM.

Yeah... Thought as much. I just hoped that some of the über-nerds here could answer the question! :smallsmile:

[Arundel]

Basically you're opening a few distinct cans of worms.

1.) Is the DMG the primary source for PrCs? (Forum consenus: Yes)
In the DMG it says you can't further advance in the class but it says nothing about losing existing benefits.

2.) Does the FAQ count as official rules? (Forum consensus: No)
The FAQ says you lose requirements and you lose the benefits. Of note, the FAQ is a whole host of issues in and of itself.

3.) Does the Complete Warrior rule apply to all PrCs or just the PrCs in that book? (Forum consensus: Flame war)
The issue at hand, does the Complete Warrior passage on this issue count as a primary source rule for this issue?

Most of the disagreement comes from item three, although we have a bunch of fun debating item 2 (an unusual debate as we have very respected forumites on both sides of the issue).

Ask the DM though.

[Chronos]

Personally, I would rule that you need to meet the prereqs in order to take any level of a PrC (except for the rare case like Ur-Priest where the class itself removes the prereq), but that unless the class specifies otherwise (like all classes in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane, and a few others) you don't lose the class features you already have.

This is just my personal ruling, though, and I won't attempt to argue the RAW on it.

[Melcar]

Personally I’m inclined to believe them as it is written PRE-requirements not requirements or POST-requirements.

Thus... Meaning you need it to start or enter a PrC or gaining the feat, not keeping a feat or keeping a PrC.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Personally I would take it on a class by class basis. In general I think you should need the prerequisites to benefit similar to feats. However there are some notable exceptions like Ur-priest, And i think a Prc in the DMG too.

I hope this thread doesn't devolve into a RAW flame war. I'm already involved in one related to a factotum's level 19 ability.:smalleek:

[Melcar]

Personally I would take it on a class by class basis. In general I think you should need the prerequisites to benefit similar to feats. However there are some notable exceptions like Ur-priest, And i think a Prc in the DMG too.

I hope this thread doesn't devolve into a RAW flame war. I'm already involved in one related to a factotum's level 19 ability.:smalleek:

I have no intentions on starting any kind of war, I’m simply trying to coerce my DM into letting me remove a stupid prerequisite feat after gaining a PrC from dragon magazine by understanding the rules in a deeper and more profound way. :smallamused:

[NeoPhoenix0]

For me unless the nature of the Prc disqualifies itself you should need the prerequisites. I mean you need to maintain your feat prerequisites to use them, why not a Prc too.

[Matticussama]

If your DM is okay with light homebrewing/house ruling, you could always ask to replace the bad prereq feats with something similar but better. Some feats already do this, like Desert Wind Dodge replacing regular Dodge, so the precedent exists. It is just a matter of getting the DM to allow new feats to replace the prereqs instead of forcing you to take the bad ones.

[Melcar]

If your DM is okay with light homebrewing/house ruling, you could always ask to replace the bad prereq feats with something similar but better. Some feats already do this, like Desert Wind Dodge replacing regular Dodge, so the precedent exists. It is just a matter of getting the DM to allow new feats to replace the prereqs instead of forcing you to take the bad ones.

Yes, but somehow I feel it would be a bit more sophisticated to use an ingame way to magically alter the feats by Psychic Reformation...

[NeoPhoenix0]

Just out of curiosity, what is the feat you want to get rid of.

[Melcar]

Its the PrC Mystic from Dragon Magazine # 274. It has the following prerequisites:

Skills:
Spellcraft rank: 10
Knowledge arcane rank: 10
Knowledge religion rank 5

Feats:
Spell Penetration
Spell Focus
One metamagic feat
One item creation feat

It’s the damn Item creation feat. Why would I take a feat, when The Lady's Academy of Silverymoon (forgotten realms) has magical workshops that give item creation feats when working in them??? Just an absolute waste of a feat. I want to meet the requirements but then alter the item creation feat when finished gaining levels in Mystic! Its for my level 30 wizard!

[Eldonauran]

Personally, I would rule that you need to meet the prereqs in order to take any level of a PrC (except for the rare case like Ur-Priest where the class itself removes the prereq), but that unless the class specifies otherwise (like all classes in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane, and a few others) you don't lose the class features you already have.

This is just my personal ruling, though, and I won't attempt to argue the RAW on it.

I am of like mind. Unless the prestige class specifically lists otherwise, you do not lose access to its abilities if you no longer qualify for that prestige class. You are NOT allowed to progress further in that prestige class nor are you allowed to progress that class's abilities (such as spellcasting) with another prestige class, until you meet the prerequisites once more.

One of my little rulings as a DM. Along the lines of heavily frowning upon usage of Psychic Reformation and other feat shuffling shenanigans. I'm not going to tell you no. I am going to make the actions have consequences, like using a plot hook along the lines of alternate versions of you popping up, upset that you stole their hard earned feat and replaced it with a weapon proficiency.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Did you use an ACF to trade away Scribe Scroll? because that counts as an item creation feat. It is also very useful on the road.

[Melcar]

Did you use an ACF to trade away Scribe Scroll? because that counts as an item creation feat. It is also very useful on the road.

Brilliant thank you. I had totally forgotten that Scribe Scroll was item creation. HA HA HA. You are awesome! :smallbiggrin:

[JusticeZero]

The way i've always run it/seen it run is that you can TAKE anything you want. You can take levels in Assassin as a 2nd level LG character. But you cannot USE *anything* unless you meet all the prerequisites for it at the time you try to use it, all the way down to the ground. So for instance, if you get your int damaged by poison so that it drops below 13, your Combat Expertise goes offline immediately and so does the PRC that has it as a prerequisite. It'll all come back online without changes as soon as your int damage heals up.