how to deal with a dragons high attack roll

[plaugebearer]

Alright so I may be misunderstanding things but I hope you guys and gals can help me. Many party is group of 5 all level 14. Our dm has allowed ALL books made by wizards legal for game play. We will be fighting a dragon soon as part of a quest for a legendary weapon he made for one of the players. My problen is this an adult red dragon has a +31 attack and a BAB of +22. How do you not get hit everytime? And with a breath weapon that does 12d10 how do you not insta die? If I left out anything important to answering these qyestions let me know and I will provide more info.

[Nettlekid]

Don't get hit. It sounds silly, but that's the way to do it. You're a five-person level 14 party. You can get 50% miss chances with spells like Displacement and Greater Blink. Use Celerity and Wall of Force to stop breath weapons, and Solid Fog to keep the dragon locked down (hopefully he doesn't have Freedom of Movement.) Or just use spells like Hide From Dragons and be on your way. Basically, it comes down to USE LOTS OF MAGIC.

[Drachasor]

What you do is get some fantastic halfings to use you as a mount!

Or, more seriously, magic that gives a miss chance is good, just remember he has blindsight so some things don't work blindsense so they know your location within 60', but they still have a miss chance. Summons can soak up some of his natural attacks and provide flanking. They can also potentially aid another to increase your AC.

Breath Weapon is easy. Energy Resistance. Cover can also help. Try to not fight the dragon in the open so it can't fly. Remember, the breath weapon only averages 65 damage, so that's manageable if 30 of it is negated. There's also Energy Immunity, but I don't recall what spell level that is (hmm, if it is 8th you are out of luck).

What sorts of ACs does your group have? How much money to spend on creating/buying new items?

[OverdrivePrime]

What's your party makeup? Are you 5 fighters? 5 Rogues? 5 Wizards? A traditional Fighter/Cleric/Rogue/Wizard/Bard party? At 14th any level, the kind of magic you have at your disposal is going to make a serious difference.

[Jeraa]

And with a breath weapon that does 12d10 how do you not insta die?

At your level, Resist Energy (a 2nd level spell) gives fire resistance 30. Thats enough to halve the breath weapon on average. Protection from Energy (3rd level spell) would give outright immunity to fire, but can only absorb 120 points of damage total (enough for almost 2 breath attacks). Even at the minimum caster level, Protection from Energy will still prevent 50 points of fire damage.

As for the attack roll, get a miss chance. Blur gives a 20% miss chance, while displacement gives a 50% miss chance. A potion of Displacement costs 750 gp, and will cause half of the attacks that would of hit you to now miss you. (Dragons have Blindsense, not Blindsight. Blindsight negates concealment, Blindsense does not.)


Or, more seriously, magic that gives a miss chance is good, just remember he has blindsight so some things don't work. Summons can soak up some of his natural attacks and provide flanking. They can also potentially aid another to increase your AC.

Blindsense, not Blindsight.

[NichG]

One of the big rules of fighting dragons is, do not let them get off a full attack. If this means you don't get to full attack, so be it. Basically, you have to be prepared to have a way to get out of the dragon's reach if you're melee, or attack from outside of it somehow. This may mean coordinating with another PC to teleport/etc you out, though thats obviously costly on actions.

The 12d10 breath isn't so bad if you know you're going to be facing a dragon and know what type, since its always some kind of energy type and you can just prepare resistances appropriately.

[Kuulvheysoon]

One of the big rules of fighting dragons is, do not let them get off a full attack. If this means you don't get to full attack, so be it. Basically, you have to be prepared to have a way to get out of the dragon's reach if you're melee, or attack from outside of it somehow. This may mean coordinating with another PC to teleport/etc you out, though thats obviously costly on actions.

The 12d10 breath isn't so bad if you know you're going to be facing a dragon and know what type, since its always some kind of energy type and you can just prepare resistances appropriately.

Wait, most DMs don't give their dragons breath weapon substitution/admixture? Maybe my players have a reason for being angry at me.:smalltongue:

[Nettlekid]

Wait, most DMs don't give their dragons breath weapon substitution/admixture? Maybe my players have a reason for being angry at me.:smalltongue:

Haha, in the games I've played, all my dragons are always highly proud of their element and consider others far inferior, never deigning to substitute mighty fire for a piddling chilly breeze.

[mregecko]

Also, just going to point this out...

12d10 averages to 66 damage.

Even without the reflex for half, a level 14 character should be able to absorb that. (Assuming minimum of d4 HD & 14 CON, a wizard should have at least 74hp. More when you factor in empowered false life, hero's feast, CON boosting items, etc).

If your dragon wastes one of its rounds on an attack that is
A.) Probably not going to hit everyone [note: SPREAD OUT, but not out of delay death/buff range]
B.) Has a fairly easy save
C.) Won't kill anyone at 14th level...

Then your dragon isn't being played intelligently and you should be fine :smallcool:

[Vedhin]

Haha, in the games I've played, all my dragons are always highly proud of their element and consider others far inferior, never deigning to substitute mighty fire for a piddling chilly breeze.

You've obviously never met a red dragon painted white living in an ice cave. Or a white dragon painted red living in a volcano. They use Bluff and breath weapon substitution to make you think they are actually whatever color they're painted.

[Nettlekid]

You've obviously never met a red dragon painted white living in an ice cave. Or a white dragon painted red living in a volcano. They use Bluff and breath weapon substitution to make you think they are actually whatever color they're painted.

A mighty Red Dragon is far too proud to lower itself to behaving like a common White! And the barbaric, slovenly, and remarkably unintelligent White Dragons coming up with a scheme as cunning as that, unthinkable.

[Jeraa]

A mighty Red Dragon is far too proud to lower itself to behaving like a common White! And the barbaric, slovenly, and remarkably unintelligent White Dragons coming up with a scheme as cunning as that, unthinkable.

White dragons aren't that unintelligent. Once they hit adult, they are as smart as your average human. Juveniles are only slightly unintelligent (Intelligence 8). If humans can disguise themselves, then so can dragons.

[Immabozo]

Immunity to fire, fire resistance, evasion and imp. evasion are all answers to breath weapons.

Answers to attacks, as has been mentioned, miss chance (potions of improved invis?), not letting it get a get full attacks, etc.

Another option, optimize AC! Do you have a druid and a wizard? If not, just pay for buffs. Druid has Enhancement to your existing natural armor bonus spells (barkskin is one, I think), in addition to enhancement bonus to natural armor. So a +5 barkskin and another nat armor +5 spell is +10. Upgrade items for a few more, an animated +1 heavy shield is another 4 AC (screw mithral, this one doesn't even touch that casters arm!) a druid can get high nat armor in wildshape, hell, a wildshape druid can consistently stun him most rounds, probably.

Then there's Combat Expertise, fighting defensively, PrC (if you can take a level before facing him) for Con or Wis to AC (can get con to AC at least twice).

My level 12 wildshaping druid got low 70s AC (granted, after extensive research so that I could prove my DM wrong in tanking his made-to-loose encounter, took one all-day buff, 2 12 hour buffs, 1 10 minute buff and the first 2 rounds of combat buffing, so scrying was key). My level 15 fighter had 52 AC, so straight tanking a dragon is possible.

Although I have to say, the best defense, is a good offense. Do you have an ubercharger to charge it for about 100 damage? 200-250 if he is optimized and a little lucky with good rolls? A wizard to do a save-or-suck debuff? a cleric that can do another save-or-suck debuff? Or maybe several casters that can do a save-or-die, on 3 or 4 saves, the odds of losing 1 are much higher.

[Spuddles]

Don't use spells that have saves on dragons. It's not worth the spell slots and actions.

Unless you can guarantee very high DCs.

[Kuulvheysoon]

A mighty Red Dragon is far too proud to lower itself to behaving like a common White! And the barbaric, slovenly, and remarkably unintelligent White Dragons coming up with a scheme as cunning as that, unthinkable.


White dragons aren't that unintelligent. Once they hit adult, they are as smart as your average human. Juveniles are only slightly unintelligent (Intelligence 8). If humans can disguise themselves, then so can dragons.

Agreed. Methinks that in your games, you play up the arrogance and superiority complex that dragons (can) have, while others (like Jeraa and myself) play up their (usually) formidable intellects.

[TuggyNE]

Druid has Enhancement to your existing natural armor bonus spells (barkskin is one, I think), in addition to enhancement bonus to natural armor. So a +5 barkskin and another nat armor +5 spell is +10. Upgrade items for a few more, an animated +1 heavy shield is another 4 AC (screw mithral, this one doesn't even touch that casters arm!)

For what it's worth, while AC pumping is a valid tactic (that requires, generally, moderate to significant investment for most characters), these suggestions aren't so great. Enhancement bonuses to natural armor do not stack with themselves, and animated shields explicitly still have ASF and ACP just as normal. Alter self or polymorph into something with high NA is a good base for then barkskinning it, though. Further effort depends on getting deflection and armor bonuses (such as (greater) luminous armor for casters), and maybe stacking up other miscellaneous boosts like defending weapons.

[ericp65]

Haha, in the games I've played, all my dragons are always highly proud of their element and consider others far inferior, never deigning to substitute mighty fire for a piddling chilly breeze.

Sorry if this has been stated already, but that's consistent at least with the red dragon mindset. They're convinced of their own superiority, and insanely proud. Blues are smarter, but still they're dragons, and all dragons consider themselves to be the superior life form.

To the OP, if a party member can become a dragon him/herself, that might help :smallsmile:

[Nettlekid]

Haha, in the games I've played, all my dragons are always highly proud of their element and consider others far inferior, never deigning to substitute mighty fire for a piddling chilly breeze.

I said that wrong, didn't I? I meant WITH a breeze, not FOR a breeze. Oops.



To the OP, if a party member can become a dragon him/herself, that might help :smallsmile:

And I think this is excellent advice. Especially for Epic levels, Shapechanging into a Wyrming Force or Prismatic Dragon is one of the best ways to negate all the power of that same dragon against you.

[nobodez]

Well, the easiest way is, like others have suggested, not get hit in the first place. The various miss chance spells are nice for that.

Also, make sure you move around (either flight or teleport, or both) to keep it from Full-Attacks.

Range is your best option, especially ranged touch attacks (dragons are the perfect opponents for the infamous Orb of … spells.

[Immabozo]

For what it's worth, while AC pumping is a valid tactic (that requires, generally, moderate to significant investment for most characters), these suggestions aren't so great. Enhancement bonuses to natural armor do not stack with themselves, and animated shields explicitly still have ASF and ACP just as normal. Alter self or polymorph into something with high NA is a good base for then barkskinning it, though. Further effort depends on getting deflection and armor bonuses (such as (greater) luminous armor for casters), and maybe stacking up other miscellaneous boosts like defending weapons.

True, enhancement bonuses do not stack, but a wording peculiar to some of the druid +NA spells is that it is "An enhancement bonus, to your existing natural armor bonus" now, unless I wildly misunderstand the wording, I believe that is an enhancement bonus, to an enhancement bonus, making the two "stack"

Not that this is game breaking, nor is it cheese (might be a little pedantic, on the scale of cheese, this isn't even that orange plastic "cheese" they call American cheese, the ones in the peel-able plastic wrappers we got in our lunches as kids), I think you can get a +8 enhancement to NA and a +5 enhancement bonus, to the NA enhancement bonus.

But in the game of stacking AC, there is a good large difference between 35 and 40.

I didn't know that about the shield keeping the ASF, thanks for correcting me.

EDIT: On second thought (a brand new player vs a, now, year and a half experienced player) doubts what I said now and would not be surprised to be wrong.

[Kuulvheysoon]

True, enhancement bonuses do not stack, but a wording peculiar to some of the druid +NA spells is that it is "An enhancement bonus, to your existing natural armor bonus" now, unless I wildly misunderstand the wording, I believe that is an enhancement bonus, to an enhancement bonus, making the two "stack"

Not that this is game breaking, nor is it cheese (might be a little pedantic, on the scale of cheese, this isn't even that orange plastic "cheese" they call American cheese, the ones in the peel-able plastic wrappers we got in our lunches as kids), I think you can get a +8 enhancement to NA and a +5 enhancement bonus, to the NA enhancement bonus.

But in the game of stacking AC, there is a good large difference between 35 and 40.

I didn't know that about the shield keeping the ASF, thanks for correcting me.

EDIT: On second thought (a brand new player vs a, now, year and a half experienced player) doubts what I said now and would not be surprised to be wrong.

The two enhancement bonuses don't stack. You can't enhance an enhancement with an enhancement. Enhancement.

[Immabozo]

The two enhancement bonuses don't stack. You can't enhance an enhancement with an enhancement. Enhancement.

I thought (when I was new) that that is what it said.

But now, I am not surprised to be wrong. Thanks!

[ShadowFireLance]

A mighty Red Dragon is far too proud to lower itself to behaving like a common White! And the barbaric, slovenly, and remarkably unintelligent White Dragons coming up with a scheme as cunning as that, unthinkable.

....hahahahaha. Funny mortal.

[137beth]

Don't use spells that have saves on dragons. It's not worth the spell slots and actions.

Unless you can guarantee very high DCs.

Nitpick: Don't use spells which are completely negated by a save on dragons. If you can tricks to get off two spells like Ray of Exhaustion, then wham, you got an exhausted dragon, save or no save. Or you have an exhausted dragon and an extra action, if you get lucky and it fails its first save. Don't, however, use spells which are completely negated by saves, like charm monster.

[ArcturusV]

It's one of those things were the difficulty of a Dragon depends almost entirely on how the guy DMing plays them up. I mean, by the time you're dealing with Dragons like your OP example, they've faced CENTURIES of Adventurer's trying to kill them. And were smarter, tougher, and faster than them all. They have spellcasting, they are tough beasts. If your DM is really playing them up well... no. Just go home. You're not going to go into HIS turf, the place he's probably killed THOUSANDS of people just like you, and has centuries of experience defending, and be the one group that somehow has it all figured out.

Dragons are, or should be, one of the most "Paranoid, optimized, overcautious" things in a campaign. Racial memory, long lives, spellcasting, a bunch of powers, always some group of mere mortals looking to kill them... if your Adventurers are of the Paranoid Contingency types, your Dragons should be 10 times as much.

... sadly most people don't really play up dragons like that. They make them complacent, stupid, the fact that they have 16 int somehow means they act like a rabid dog of 1 Int... for some reason... that tends to happen. Note the "Stupid" thing above about White Dragons. 8 int is a "Normal" range of intelligence for a humanoid. You wouldn't think of them as stupid. But dragon with 8 int? They act like it's amazing that they can figure out how not to keep running into their cave walls over and over. Note also that a Familiar with 8 int is often treated like a super genius (Or at least above average human intelligence) even though it's only average. *shrug* It's the weirdness of perceptions. I blame the dragon thing on fantasy authors, like the White Dragon in Dragons of Winter's Night... who was too stupid to figure out "Hmm... humans on a ship that cannot actually hurt me. I could kill them and retrieve the dragon orb as ordered with no risk".

Your worst fear really isn't the Full Attack of Smashing. It's not even being given the chance to use your Action Economy on them. Note that most of the high powered spells that people suggest against dragons don't have that much range. A dragon can just be coasting along, flying outside of spell range, maybe go drop rocks on you or the like... do a power dive and breath weapon strafe you before climbing again...

If you're only worried about the BAB. Your DM probably isn't making tough dragons, or you have dumb "MMO AI" mob enemies. So I wouldn't worry too much. You WANT the dragon to try to melee you all. Get in range where your wizard can just drain it's Dex away, or you can flank and cut it apart, etc.

Oh. And watch out for that breath weapon. I know people are saying that the average is only 66 so you can probably take one to the face, no problem... but that's JUST high enough to trigger the "Death from Massive Damage" rules. You probably will pass that saving throw... it's only DC15... but plenty of people have been laid low by it.

[TuggyNE]

True, enhancement bonuses do not stack, but a wording peculiar to some of the druid +NA spells is that it is "An enhancement bonus, to your existing natural armor bonus" now, unless I wildly misunderstand the wording, I believe that is an enhancement bonus, to an enhancement bonus, making the two "stack"

It's an enhancement bonus to a natural armor bonus. No more, no less. Just like the amulet of natural armor.

So far as I know, there are no enhancement bonuses to enhancement bonuses; the system simply does not use that level of indirection.

[plaugebearer]

Group makeup is as follows: rogue, necromacer, ranger, fighter, and a homebrew alchemist which basically throws gerandes and uses rod of wonder on every atack. It is a bad group make up but we have 3-4 toons and were asked individually away from the others which one we would use for this campaign. We were also promised that which ever toon we brought would be given the chance to complete one goal of his choice.

[ShadowFireLance]

Dragons are, or should be, one of the most "Paranoid, optimized, overcautious" things in a campaign. Racial memory, long lives, spellcasting, a bunch of powers, always some group of mere mortals looking to kill them... if your Adventurers are of the Paranoid Contingency types, your Dragons should be 10 times as much.

Sir. You have one of my few cookies.
Can I sig that?

[Snowbluff]

....hahahahaha. Funny mortal.

Actually, he's right. The red might be worth some scheming, but whites are quite dumb. It'd be kind of like a DM using OoC knowledge for it to try anything that would work.

[Drachasor]

Actually, he's right. The red might be worth some scheming, but whites are quite dumb. It'd be kind of like a DM using OoC knowledge for it to try anything that would work.

On the other hand, the White Dragon has a lot of experience being a dragon and potentially dealing with people trying to kill it. That's potentially really good training. The PCs might be more like amateurs at dragon-killing, even if they are much more intelligent.

Experience and skill can make up for a lot. Intelligence sometimes needs to play catchup before it is superior.

[EyethatBinds]

Find the Gap and Fell the Greatest Foe are handy spells, but it sounds like your party mostly consists of near-casters or non-casters. If your rogue doesn't have UMD this situation might not be salvageable. Good luck?

[Drachasor]

Is there another dragon in a nearby? Maybe you guys can get the two to fight each other.

[Perseus]

First off, watch out for those albino dragons that are different colors.

Dragon Killer = Shivering touch. Empower/Maximized for killer awesomeness. Get this as an item or spell known and go to town

[DR27]

My problen is this an adult red dragon has a +31 attack and a BAB of +22. How do you not get hit everytime?
If your concern is getting hit every time, then as everybody else has stated - miss chance is the way to go. If you do decide to boost your AC, just remember that you will still be hit often - the idea isn't to avoid being hit, but to prevent the dragon from power attacking for crazy amounts of damage.

While it would still suck to take normal damage if you are squishy, specific BSF builds could enjoy taking repeated moderate damage (i.e., crusader playing around with his steely resolve pool)

EDIT: looking at your party makeup, I'd imagine the only player that can do anything besides poke the dragon with pointy things/zap is the Necromancer. Shivering Touch is a necromancy spell after all, and it would have the ability to cast some defensive spells/use minions as fodder to nuke said dragon.

[Snowbluff]

On the other hand, the White Dragon has a lot of experience being a dragon and potentially dealing with people trying to kill it. That's potentially really good training. The PCs might be more like amateurs at dragon-killing, even if they are much more intelligent.

Experience and skill can make up for a lot. Intelligence sometimes needs to play catchup before it is superior.

Dragons don't get experience. Don't be silly. :smalltongue:

Additionally, experience is overrated. And if anyone tried to kill any of these idiots with something they could learn from, they'd be dead.

Finally, a well optimized party member is usually smarter or wiser than the damn thing at all levels. How are you supposed to work around that the players are more capable of being intelligent and creative than the dragon, and therefore better at being paranoid?

[JaronK]

I'd recommend just having the casters use Lahm's Finger Darts. The Str damage hurts (you take 5 str damage casting it) but 5d4 dec damage with no save at range should solve all your problems nicely. Dragons can't hit you if they're paralyzed, and an average hit from that spell does 12.5 dec damage. It's also just a second level spell, so consider a Lesser Wand of Maximize Spell or similar to ensure success.

JaronK

[ArcturusV]

Sir. You have one of my few cookies.
Can I sig that?

Sure thing.

[Snowbluff]

Sure thing.
Question about what you said? Why would you punish players for trying to play smart? I mean, my players tend to be rather dumb, but what the heck?!

[Tvtyrant]

Question about what you said? Why would you punish players for trying to play smart? I mean, my players tend to be rather dumb, but what the heck?!

Assuming that a centuries old creature that is at least as smart as a human is going to act exactly as you expect is playing smart? If I had a noticeable weakness and I was hunted just for existing, I would cover it up. Humans create armor, castles, nukes, etc. and yet a dragon has to let the obvious energy scheme work against it?

If I was the dragon I would open up the battle with a quickened entangling exhalation breath weapon and the Great Thunderclap spell to debuff the party. No save on the entangle, fort save against stun, reflex against prone, will against deaf. Hopefully this cripples the party entirely, and next turn I can simply kill them all.

[Drachasor]

Question about what you said? Why would you punish players for trying to play smart? I mean, my players tend to be rather dumb, but what the heck?!

Speaking as someone that plays smart, I like it when the game of the enemies gets upped to match.

[ArcturusV]

I don't really see it as punishing. Least I don't quite take things to the levels of insane optimization and what not, to practical immortality/invincibility and what not. I do keep in mind stats as well. That 8 Int White Dragon is basically of Average intelligence. Not quite the moron that writers of fantasy novels have made them out to be (I swear half the time they need a helmet to keep themselves from being KOed from flying into walls because they are that stupid, as written in novels). Wisdom is usually a more important factor for me when I consider that though, not Int. *shrug* It makes more sense to me. A lower Int might be a simpleton, but a low Wisdom is a scatterbrained never achiever. It's the guys with good wisdom who make good plans. Which even the stupid white dragon would have above average wisdom. And they have access to a lot of wealth, a lot of knowledge, and a lot of experience in dealing with pesky adventurers. Their plans aren't going to be brilliant... but they should at least be a lot more competent than wading into melee to be murdered.

Part of this is... I want Dragons to be special. I want dragons to be something that players go "Oh ****!" about. Dragons when they are given MMO AI, where basically they just land and try to full attack the first thing they see.... are sitting ducks. They get swarmed, mobbed, and taken out real fast. It gives up their three primary advantages (Mobility, AoE Range, Spellcasting) to fight in a situation that favors the more numerous enemies. Also note the Flying and Breath Weapon strafe actually gives the guy who spec'd archery something to do, as Archers will outrange spellcasters until you're talking like Caster Level 25 (And the archer has done nothing to increase ranges), so it would give the guy who was smart enough to pack longbows "Just in case" a feeling of their investment in a magical bow being worth it.

I don't tend to throw the Dragonpocalypse at players. But if someone wants to make a career of being a Dragon Hunter.... they should know they're basically trying to eradicate what should be the most dangerous form of life native to the material plane. And it should FEEL like that.

Oftentimes when I'm playing in a campaign, or reading an adventure module, it never feels like that. Dragons just... aren't special. They're often put up as "bosses"... but they never really feel dangerous. It's not something you say "oh ****!" about. You just kinda smile, say "We eat Dragon Steak tonight!" and murder them hard. You could have replaced that Adult Dragon with a level 25 Fighter and had the same effect for all it's given in play.

It's kinda vague I suppose. It can be seen as "punishing" players. But I don't really take into account them being smart or stupid in the Dragon equation. Well, if they are stupid the dragon is just going to be much more difficult, sure. But I look at it in terms of story and setting. These are dangerous creatures that basically 99% of all life in the world wants to see dead for one reason or another. Yet they persist. They should have a reason for that. And their race isn't one where "Well they breed really fast" is necessarily going to be the reason, like it is for Kobolds and Gobbos.

[Gavinfoxx]

You want to combine as many of these as possible when fighting a Dragon:

Shivering Touch
+
Things to get it to work
+
Ways to deliver it from afar.

That means using Reach Spell, Ocular Spell, Spectral Hand, or a Familiar to deliver it, and Maximize Spell or Empower Spell. You need to take down the dragon's Scintillating Scales with a dispel magic (or have a way to succeed at the to hit regardless), lower his Spell Resistance, remove his buffs, etc. etc. -- Dragons are intelligent, and there are a TON of ways that the GM could have a dragon use their own resources to prepare. To get that combo to work on ANY non cold subtype dragon, you generally need to combine things like:

Enervation
True Casting
Shivering Touch
Assay Spell Resistance
Spectral Hand
Arcane Fusion
True Strike
Limited Wish

various Rods of Metamagic, the Celerity line of spells, targeted dispel magics, etc. etc.

Of course if the GM doesn't prepare anything, just use Nerveskitter, a rod of empower spell, spectral hand and shivering touch to paralyze the dragon.

Then everyone gets out their Large +1 Greensteel scythes and warpicks and such and goes and CdG's the dragon until it is dead.

[Drachasor]

Before using overpowered spells to end a significant encounter with ease, it is considered polite to point out such intentions to the DM. They might not appreciate it, and therefore have an opinion on what to allow or modify.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, yea. But he wanted to know how to deal with dragons, and I told him how to deal with dragons: deal dex damage by ranged touch attack without a fort save.

[JaronK]

There's no need to Shivering Touch cold type dragons when Lahm's Finger Darts gets the job done with a lower level spell at range and doesn't require a touch attack. It's even got a higher average damage.

You'll need a Restoration spell after casting that one, though. It does 5d4 dex damage, no save, no attack role (SR applies), but you lose all the fingers on one hand and take 5 Str damage, getting the fingers back when you restore the Str damage. Still, it's a better dragon killer than Shivering Touch by far, and doesn't run into the whole "it was secretly a White Dragon in a Hat of Disguise the whole time!" issue.

JaronK

[DR27]

There's no need to Shivering Touch cold type dragons when Lahm's Finger Darts gets the job done with a lower level spell at range and doesn't require a touch attack. It's even got a higher average damage.
True, but I can think of plenty of characters who wouldn't want to play with BoVD material. Spells from the setting/environment books? Much more universal. I guess it's pretty stupid to split hairs over supplement material though.

Another question is, if you weren't going to deal with the dragon using Dex damage/drain, how would you prepare? (especially with the party the OP listed)

[Perseus]

True, but I can think of plenty of characters who wouldn't want to play with BoVD material. Spells from the setting/environment books? Much more universal. I guess it's pretty stupid to split hairs over supplement material though.

Another question is, if you weren't going to deal with the dragon using Dex damage/drain, how would you prepare? (especially with the party the OP listed)

Helm of opposite alignment?

Why fight when you can make a friend?

[ArcturusV]

Like I would for any BBEG that I give a modicum of respect to. Probably some surveillance of one type or another. Scout out the situation, use resources to figure out the layouts of their lair, etc. Wait for the bugger to leave and burn down a village or something. Sneak into lair. Disarm and disable various traps and such without a dragon looking to roast you alive while you do it. Possibly resetting the traps once you're past them so there's no overt signs something is wrong. Hope that you managed to safely find and disable things that can ruin this plan like a level 1 Alarm spell... Set up your own Ambush inside its lair. Booby trap as needed, prepare for a good alpha strike, take it down before it is fully aware it is in a fight. It's not old enough that it's going to have access to things like Foresight to always be prepared for whatever you do.

Just never plan on a Fair Fight. It's a super villain. Kick 'em square in the nuts when they aren't looking. Even Paladins don't have a problem doing that unless they chose to make Wisdom a dump stat for some reason.

[nobodez]

Assuming that a centuries old creature that is at least as smart as a human is going to act exactly as you expect is playing smart? If I had a noticeable weakness and I was hunted just for existing, I would cover it up. Humans create armor, castles, nukes, etc. and yet a dragon has to let the obvious energy scheme work against it?

If I was the dragon I would open up the battle with a quickened entangling exhalation breath weapon and the Great Thunderclap spell to debuff the party. No save on the entangle, fort save against stun, reflex against prone, will against deaf. Hopefully this cripples the party entirely, and next turn I can simply kill them all.

An Adult Red Dragon is, at most, 200 years old, and at least 100 years old. That means that they're likely as old as the average adventuring elf. An average Red is slightly dumber than a wizard, as wise as a cleric, and slightly less confident than a bard or sorcerer (assuming level 15 for the CR). They cast spells as a 7th level sorcerer (though has all cleric spells and the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domain spells as their "class" spell list), able to cast 5 (4+bonus) 3rd level spells, 7 (6+bonus) 2nd level spells, 7 1st level spells, and 6 0-level spells per day (knowing 2, 3, 5, and 7 spells of those respective levels). They have a base touch AC of 8, an a base AC of 29.

The Great Thunderclap spell is 7th level, placing it well outside the reach of the Adult Red Dragon. The youngest a Red Dragon can be to have that spell without class levels (which they really should be picking up) is Ancient (CL 15), and at CR 23 I should think they should be having fun with spells like that, but the Adult Red of the OP's question does not have access to it (outside of scrolls or wands).

[JaronK]

True, but I can think of plenty of characters who wouldn't want to play with BoVD material. Spells from the setting/environment books? Much more universal. I guess it's pretty stupid to split hairs over supplement material though.

Another question is, if you weren't going to deal with the dragon using Dex damage/drain, how would you prepare? (especially with the party the OP listed)

Probably try to entangle him so he loses mobility first, then take him out from long range. Dragon spells aren't actually all that good.

JaronK

[Tvtyrant]

An Adult Red Dragon is, at most, 200 years old, and at least 100 years old. That means that they're likely as old as the average adventuring elf. An average Red is slightly dumber than a wizard, as wise as a cleric, and slightly less confident than a bard or sorcerer (assuming level 15 for the CR). They cast spells as a 7th level sorcerer (though has all cleric spells and the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domain spells as their "class" spell list), able to cast 5 (4+bonus) 3rd level spells, 7 (6+bonus) 2nd level spells, 7 1st level spells, and 6 0-level spells per day (knowing 2, 3, 5, and 7 spells of those respective levels). They have a base touch AC of 8, an a base AC of 29.

The Great Thunderclap spell is 7th level, placing it well outside the reach of the Adult Red Dragon. The youngest a Red Dragon can be to have that spell without class levels (which they really should be picking up) is Ancient (CL 15), and at CR 23 I should think they should be having fun with spells like that, but the Adult Red of the OP's question does not have access to it (outside of scrolls or wands).
Again, 200 years of life fighting for your life is not the same as being a 200 year old farmer. It is also a pretty basic assumption in any fight that you want to take out the opponent as quickly as possible.

Great Thunderclap is a 3rd level spell by the spell compendium. The Faerun version is a 7th. It is my favorite 3rd level spell, and maybe the worst 7th level.

[ArcturusV]

That and Dragons tend to have that Racial memory. So not only do they have their own 200 years of everything trying to kill them to build experiences on. But they also have the memories of every other dragon of its type to draw upon.

And yeah, Dragon's are ultra sorcerers or anything. But then again you don't need high level magic to really wreck someone's day. By the time you have 3rd level spells online, you should have spells that are always going to be effective and good for the rest of your life (If used with a modicum of the intelligence and wisdom they should have with their stats, and not just brute bludgeoning power). It might not match the raw power of 7th spells, or 9th spells. But it's still going to be capable of screwing someone over pretty hard.

[Tvtyrant]

That and Dragons tend to have that Racial memory. So not only do they have their own 200 years of everything trying to kill them to build experiences on. But they also have the memories of every other dragon of its type to draw upon.

And yeah, Dragon's are ultra sorcerers or anything. But then again you don't need high level magic to really wreck someone's day. By the time you have 3rd level spells online, you should have spells that are always going to be effective and good for the rest of your life (If used with a modicum of the intelligence and wisdom they should have with their stats, and not just brute bludgeoning power). It might not match the raw power of 7th spells, or 9th spells. But it's still going to be capable of screwing someone over pretty hard.

Especially if it casts invisibility on itself and flies too high for the party to hear it, and then drops down on their heads from the sky. This dragon would have 7 mins of invisibility, which would it travel 8,400 ft. before it runs out. Less than 2 miles but still enough to get them on the side of its mountain. I cannot remember if flying critters can hustle, but if so they could travel quite a ways under a single casting (or just chain castings together.)

[nobodez]

Again, 200 years of life fighting for your life is not the same as being a 200 year old farmer. It is also a pretty basic assumption in any fight that you want to take out the opponent as quickly as possible.

Great Thunderclap is a 3rd level spell by the spell compendium. The Faerun version is a 7th. It is my favorite 3rd level spell, and maybe the worst 7th level.

Sorry, just did a google search for "Great Thunderclap spell", guess I didn't look beyond the D&D Tools version. :smallredface:

And really, it's not 200 years of fighting for their life, it's 50 years of being tended to by mum and dad dragon, and then 50-150 years of living on their own. By the time a Red Dragon is on their own, they're CR 13, making them pretty much more bad-ass than 99% of the humanoids within 500 miles of them.

I was about to do a whole paragraph or two about how a "smart" dragon would hide what they were, but then I realized that these are DRAGONS we're talking about, they have egos larger than their charisma score alone would allow. Aside from their parents and grandparents (and on and on), they're the most bad-ass thing around, and thus, while they'll protect themselves, they're not like a human BBEG, they didn't have to grow in power and work to get where they were, all they had to do was break out of their shells and they were already more powerful than 90% of the humanoids in the world. They have natural followers in kobolds (possibly attracted through the Leadership feat chain), and are likely to use them to their advantage (though the Chaotic Dragons, like Reds, might have a looser organization). An adult Red is also likely to have a mate, and possibly even wyrmlings or even older children. And if they're nearing the older edge of Adult, they may even have grandchildren around.


That and Dragons tend to have that Racial memory. So not only do they have their own 200 years of everything trying to kill them to build experiences on. But they also have the memories of every other dragon of its type to draw upon.

Um, where are you getting the "racial memory" thing from? That's so far from RAW I'm not sure where you could have found it. Is that a campaign specific thing?

[Jeraa]

Um, where are you getting the "racial memory" thing from? That's so far from RAW I'm not sure where you could have found it. Is that a campaign specific thing?

The Draconomicon does have a bit to say (page 12):


A newly hatched dragon emerges from its egg cramped and sodden. After about an hour, it is ready to fly, fight, and reason. It inherits a considerable body of practical knowledge from its parents, though such inherent knowledge often lies buried in the wyrmling’s memory, unnoticed and unused until it is needed.

Not quite the same thing, but still a form of racial memory.

[Hua]

Few of the above actually address your issues. They talk of spells and such your mostly physical dealing party can't do.

Have the necromancer bring in undead, specifically things that have touch attacks like shadows. Most of the dragon's AC won't matter to them and dropping the strength of the dragon drops hit and damage.

Use potions of Resist or protection from energy. Go with the most obvious ones, but if you suspect it is going to swap the damage type somehow, use more than one to protect you from the breath weapon.

Blur and most other 'miss chance' things suggested dont work against a dragon.

Buff your self as best you can with strength and dex realated things. Your group is mostly physical so buff yourself and only have the necromancer be trying to reduce the dragon. Consider Enlarge Person on the fighter so he does more damage, as well as more easily gives flanking to the rogue.
If the ranger is 2 weapon style, same goes for him. Give him every + to hit buff you can to have him hit the dragon more often. If he is bow style the enlarge wont help, but bonus hit and damage will.

With little to no healing, you have to go full bore offense and make the dragon be the one on defense and trying to defend or get away. A prolonged fight against your group means you lose.

If possible, setup the battle field to deny full attack rounds to the dragon to limit damage. At the very least, attack from the sides and front to avoid tail sweep. Spread out some. If he can only get 1 person with the breath weapon, that is a round you will deal more damage to him than he will to your side.

If possible to get outside buffs, stoneskin spell may well save your butt.


A properly run dragon should always be difficult. The last one I was DM for, the players fought it for 3 game sessions. Once they got the upper hand and it fled. Once I took out half the party and they managed to gather the bodies and teleport away. The party spent hours debating on how to get the dragon, and ultimately avoided a final fight by taking away the prize the dragon was after (or so they thought) and the dragon left. It should be hard, and a memorable adventure.

[TuggyNE]

Blur and most other 'miss chance' things suggested dont work against a dragon.

Why wouldn't they? Dragons do not have blindsight (only blindsense, which does nothing against blur, displacement, blink, and so on), and an adult red dragon does not have access to true seeing without using consumables or items.

[Drachasor]

Why wouldn't they? Dragons do not have blindsight (only blindsense, which does nothing against blur, displacement, blink, and so on), and an adult red dragon does not have access to true seeing without using consumables or items.

A lot of them DO have Blindfighting, I believe. That reduces the effectiveness of getting miss chance. On the other hand, it has no effect on Blink spells.

[Darthteej]

I'm just gonna leave this here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-kYiDbG39s) Drove into the theater, with my windows rolled down, blaring it.

[Drachasor]

I'm just gonna leave this here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-kYiDbG39s) Drove into the theater, with my windows rolled down, blaring it.

Now I'm going to be spending time figuring out how you'd go about adjusting a Golem to be like an Apparatus of the Crab.

[Zombimode]

There's no need to Shivering Touch cold type dragons when Lahm's Finger Darts gets the job done with a lower level spell at range and doesn't require a touch attack. It's even got a higher average damage.

Your character needs to be able and willing to cast a vile spell, though, so it might not be the solution for everyone.

[HalfQuart]

Dragons can't hit you if they're paralyzed...
Actually, dragons are immune to paralysis effects. There's a lot that's unclear (in my mind) about how this interacts with having your Dex reduced to 0. Is the paralysis that results an "effect"? There is no glossary definition for "effect" so not really sure. But If a DM actually remembered that dragons are immune to paralysis effects when you tried your Lahm's Finger Darts or Shivering Touch shortcut, I'd bet they'd invoke that rule to make it not work.