Wisdom based Archer?

[Gwazi Magnum]

I just lost a character in a group I'm in and the group I found for a last while due to other player deaths really lacks ranged character so I'm going to try to cover that hole.

However, one issue I have with ranged is I can't add to it's damage like I can with melee as easily, and the main way I found that was with Soul Bow. Adding wisdom to damage and gaining lots of enhancement bonuses on top of the weapon enhancements, seems golden.

Plus with it being wisdom I can make my character have good spot and listen checks with skill point investments which is a plus. But I don't want to become MAD so the goal became to make almost everything on the Archer based on wisdom.

Starting at level 8 this is my current idea:

Swordsage 2/Soulknife 2/Ranger 1/Soulbow 3

2 Flaws.

Race: Halfling
Feats: Yondalla's Sense, Education, Able Learner, Knowledge Devotion, Zen Archery, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot

Level 9 feat: Weapon Focus

Skills: Max ranks in the 6 knowledge skills, 8 ranks in auto hypnosis, 2 ranks in story teller skill trick

Does this sound like a decent build?
Is there a way I can gain some more feats while still keeping the skill points required to upkeep Knowledge Devotion and Soulbows Pre-req?

[Kuulvheysoon]

How are you getting Able Learner as a Halfling?

I believe that standard race is human, so as to get access to Shiba Protector (Oriental Adventures).

[fishyfishyfishy]

How are you getting Able Learner when the prerequisite is that you have to be a Human or Doppelganger?

[Gwazi Magnum]

How are you getting Able Learner as a Halfling?

I believe that standard race is human, so as to get access to Shiba Protector (Oriental Adventures).

That was something I had actually forgotten about.

Though thinking about it I doubt I need it even as long as I leave the soul Knife levels till last.

[Master_Rahl22]

You could go with Cleric and Zen Archery, and use Cleric for buffs like Divine Power.

[Piggy Knowles]

Here is my take on the Zen Archer Soulbow:

BUILD STUB: Human, Cloistered Cleric (Knowledge, Planning, Trickery) 1/Soulknife 2/Ranger 2/Soulbow 2/Chameleon 10/Swordsage 2/Warblade 1

PROGRESSION:
Spoiler

1. Cloistered Cleric1- Point Blank Shot, Able Learner, Knowledge Devotion, Extend Spell
2. Soulknife1- Weapon Focus (mind blade), Hidden Talent (psionic minor creation)
3. Ranger1- Track, Precise Shot
4. Ranger2- Rapid Shot
5. Soulknife2-
6. Soulbow1- Zen Archery, Persistent Spell
7. Soulbow2-
8. Chameleon1-
9. Chameleon2- Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
10. Chameleon3-
11. Chameleon4-
12. Chameleon5- Extra Turning
13. Chameleon6-
14. Chameleon7-
15. Chameleon8- Travel Devotion
16. Chameleon9-
17. Chameleon10-
18. Swordsage1- Woodland Archer
19. Swordsage2-
20. Warblade1-

If you can qualify for PrCs with feats from items, you can drop the level in warblade for a level in Shiba Protector. Wisdom drives attack, damage, AC and spells (via Chameleon).

[Gwazi Magnum]

Why is chameleon suggested so much?

Also why only 2 soulbow levels, for a class that greatly ramps up my enchantments beyond the max it seems damn powerful.

[Elric VIII]

Why is chameleon suggested so much?

Also why only 2 soulbow levels, for a class that greatly ramps up my enchantments beyond the max it seems damn powerful.

Chameleon is excellent for archers because it gets you 12 levels of Cleric casting (one of the best archer classes) for an investment of only 10 levels, along with a bunch of great Ranger archery spells 4-6 levels before the Ranger gets them and at a higher caster level. On top of that it gives you 3 turn undead* for divine feats, along with a +6 competence bonus to 2 stats.

As for Soul Bow, the main draw for it is the ability to add Wis to damage. The enhancement bonuses can be duplicated by a Chameleon casting Greater Magic Weapon or using a Schema of Weapon Augmentation (for Bane, etc).

*I'm not 100% sure on this as I have seen it said both ways, but my reading of this feature is that it lets you turn undead up to 3x per day. Others have said that it lets you turn undead 3+Cha 3/day. Either way it can power DMM with nightsticks.

[Flickerdart]

Don't forget Shiba Protector! It can be a little tricky to get into, especially if you are feat-starved, but +WIS to attack and damage is very shiny indeed.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Chameleon is excellent for archers because it gets you 12 levels of Cleric casting (one of the best archer classes) for an investment of only 10 levels, along with a bunch of great Ranger archery spells 4-6 levels before the Ranger gets them and at a higher caster level. On top of that it gives you 3 turn undead* for divine feats, along with a +6 competence bonus to 2 stats.

As for Soul Bow, the main draw for it is the ability to add Wis to damage. The enhancement bonuses can be duplicated by a Chameleon casting Greater Magic Weapon or using a Schema of Weapon Augmentation (for Bane, etc).

*I'm not 100% sure on this as I have seen it said both ways, but my reading of this feature is that it lets you turn undead up to 3x per day. Others have said that it lets you turn undead 3+Cha 3/day. Either way it can power DMM with nightsticks.

I can see that all being nice, but doesn't magic weapon still need to respect the 10 enhancement max?
While the wording with soulbow looks like I can move past that.


Don't forget Shiba Protector! It can be a little tricky to get into, especially if you are feat-starved, but +WIS to attack and damage is very shiny indeed.

Seems nice, but the three feats aren't that great, and really it doesn't look that great past level 1 where I can also get the same effect with 2 levels of soulbow and getting the feat zen archery.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Seems nice, but the three feats aren't that great, and really it doesn't look that great past level 1 where I can also get the same effect with 2 levels of soulbow and getting the feat zen archery.

That's why it's so nice - they stack.

[Piggy Knowles]

I can see that all being nice, but doesn't magic weapon still need to respect the 10 enhancement max?
While the wording with soulbow looks like I can move past that.



Seems nice, but the three feats aren't that great, and really it doesn't look that great past level 1 where I can also get the same effect with 2 levels of soulbow and getting the feat zen archery.

True, but Shiba Protector stacks with that (and yeah, don't take more than a single level of it). A Soulbow 2 with Zen archery gets Wis to Attack/Damage, a Soulbow 2/Shiba Protector 1 gets 2xWis to Attack/Damage.

Anyhow, with Chameleon, picture persisting spells like...


Owl's Insight (+10 or higher insight bonus to Wisdom!)
Find the Gap (first attack you make is a touch attack!)
Swift Haste (Haste all day long!)
Divine Power (does this one need to be explained?)
Arrow Mind (who likes provoking?)
Cloud of Knives (yet another extra attack each round)


...just as a starter. Since Wisdom powers your spells, you'll have a lot of them. There are a ton of spells you can go with. For example, feel like dealing lots of sneak damage on top of your arrow attacks? Persist Greater Blink and Hunter's Eye. Want to fly around? Master Air is hard to beat. Or take other buffs like Recitation, Inspired Aim, Divine Favor, Arrow Mind, etc.

[killem2]

This looks like an interesting build. I like the idea of the Shiba Protector, but what is the earliest you can actually get it? (Sorry I don't have the book on me)

I'm playing in a session where if I were to die, I would reroll up as a level 6 character and I think it could be a fun class.

[Flickerdart]

This looks like an interesting build. I like the idea of the Shiba Protector, but what is the earliest you can actually get it? (Sorry I don't have the book on me)

I'm playing in a session where if I were to die, I would reroll up as a level 6 character and I think it could be a fun class.
You need +5 BAB, 4 ranks in Knowledge (Religion), Alertness, Combat Expertise, and Iron Will. Iron Will can be gotten from the Otyugh Hole for 3000gp. My favourite way of getting Alertness is through Obtain Familiar/Psicrystal Affinity, because you get an extra bonus in addition to the feat. Later, you can buy a Dark Blue Rhomboid Ioun Stone and retrain the feat. You can get Combat Expertise for 10k as well (A&EG page 139) but you'll have to suck it up at first.

[Darrin]

This looks like an interesting build. I like the idea of the Shiba Protector, but what is the earliest you can actually get it?

Requires BAB +5, so ECL 6 is the earliest entry.

[Rebel7284]

Owl's Insight is not persistable.

Otherwise, yeah, getting 2X Wis to attack/damage is nice. :)

[Flickerdart]

If your DM rules that "touch" doesn't count as fixed range, Divine Reach, Reach Spell or Ocular Spell are all you need.

[Rebel7284]

If your DM rules that "touch" doesn't count as fixed range, Divine Reach, Reach Spell or Ocular Spell are all you need.

There is a point where you have to start persisting mirror move because all your feats have been burned on getting DMM to work and you have nothing left for archery. Such a character will probably end up better at archery anyway though. xD

Also, Greater Anyspell->Polymorph->That demon that dual wields bows is amusing. :)

[Flickerdart]

Mirror Move sucks, Heroics is superior.

[Urpriest]

Owl's Insight is not persistable.

Otherwise, yeah, getting 2X Wis to attack/damage is nice. :)


If your DM rules that "touch" doesn't count as fixed range, Divine Reach, Reach Spell or Ocular Spell are all you need.

You don't need to anyway, the spell lasts an hour.

[Zombulian]

While everyone is putting their money on Clerics for Wis based archers, I'd like to include the idea of an Ardent or Psiwar. I've found that both can be most effective.

@Elric: wait how does Chameleon give 12 levels of cleric casting?

Edit: Nvm I see what you're saying. I took that as it advanced Cleric casting 12 levels, not that it was the equivalent.

[killem2]

I'm not understanding this chameleon class. I see that you get your spell casting progression but where exactly do you combine previous casting classes?

[Gwazi Magnum]

You need +5 BAB, 4 ranks in Knowledge (Religion), Alertness, Combat Expertise, and Iron Will. Iron Will can be gotten from the Otyugh Hole for 3000gp. My favourite way of getting Alertness is through Obtain Familiar/Psicrystal Affinity, because you get an extra bonus in addition to the feat. Later, you can buy a Dark Blue Rhomboid Ioun Stone and retrain the feat. You can get Combat Expertise for 10k as well (A&EG page 139) but you'll have to suck it up at first.

Where is Otyugh Hole from?


I'm not understanding this chameleon class. I see that you get your spell casting progression but where exactly do you combine previous casting classes?

You don't it's seperate spell casting.
It's just that the Chamelon spells come off the Cleric's spell list and their spell casting ability given by 10 levels of Chamelon is the equivalent of 12 levels of Cleric.

[Piggy Knowles]

Yeah, sorry, all - Owl's Insight is not persistable without tricks. But it's duration is enough that you really don't need those tricks - extend and recast a few times. The others still stand.

Basically, clerics have some of the best general buffs, rangers have the best archery specific buffs, druids have some nice additions like Owl's Insight, etc. Chameleon gets access to all of those, without needing a spell book, plus other benefits (like, say, the utility of 6th-level arcane casting at the same time), and you can still dedicate your remaining ten levels to whatever you'd like.