Infinite Damage with the Ardent

[TheSunKing]

So I'm actually hoping I'm missing some rule that makes this impossible, but either way this is kind of funny.

Using the Dominant Ideal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) variant on the Ardent we get this lovely ability: "... cost of augmenting or applying metapsionic feats to these idealized powers is reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 0)."

Now, if you reduce the cost of augmenting to 0, that means you can augment an infinite number of times, since this is true: "However, you can spend only a total number of points on a power equal to your manifester level". X+Infinite*0 = X.

With a power like Energy burst that means you deal Infinited6 fire damage with a save DC of Infinite.

From this a few questions arise:

1. Did I make any mistakes such as not knowing some rule somewhere, or misreading something?
2. As a DM, would you allow this?
3. The Dominant Ideal variant is really cool, but assuming I understand everything correctly is stupidly broken. How would you go about fixing it? I'd just change the clause to be "to a minimum of 1".

[tuesdayscoming]

You are, if I am reading correctly, misapplying the rules of augmenting.

The Dominant Ideal ACF lets you reduce the cost of augmenting a power by 2. However, this 2 point reduction applies once and only once per manifestation of the power. That is to say that, an Energy Burst cast by a level 10 Dominant Ideal Ardent could augment the spell up to a max of 12pp cost, but doing so would only cost him 10pp.

It seems to me that you are interpreting the reduction as applying to each of the +1pp 'iterations' of the augmentation. This is certainly not legal.

[Phelix-Mu]

Even considering the misinterpretation, these kinds of ACFs and abilities that reduce power point cost are generally highly exploitable once one reaches the high-op end of psionic tricks. Not sure if many tricks rely on this specific thing, but I can see how it is useful to cram a few more conceptual ML into a particularly good combo of powers (especially if it also works on your schism and all powers manifested per round, meaning it's actually a bigger effective ML increase than just +2).

The "minimum +0" kind of thing that WotC often throws around always makes me laugh. "Here, let's allow something for nothing [and then wait for the fireworks]." In general, the Law of Equal Exchange should be one that applies to game rules as well. Cost proportional to power granted would have been a nice guideline back in the day.

*Goes back to working on time machine*

[Rubik]

Even if applying, say, Empower Power only had a -2 pp cost total (meaning applying it twice only cost +2 pp), the Metapower feat from CPsi would still allow infinite damage. Spend 1 pp on Energy Ray, then apply Empower Power 300,000 times. It costs +0 pp for applying Empower Power, and you kill whatever you hit that isn't immune to the energy type you used, assuming you overcome its SR/PR.

It's extremely abusive.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Even if applying, say, Empower Power only had a -2 pp cost total (meaning applying it twice only cost +2 pp), the Metapower feat from CPsi would still allow infinite damage. Spend 1 pp on Energy Ray, then apply Empower Power 300,000 times. It costs +0 pp for applying Empower Power, and you kill whatever you hit that isn't immune to the energy type you used, assuming you overcome its SR/PR.

It's extremely abusive.

To apply a metapsionic feat you need to expend your psionic focus, where are you getting your 300,000 focuses from?

[lord_khaine]

For that matter, where do you get the part about being able to apply the same metapsionic effect more than once? :smallconfused:

[Rubik]

To apply a metapsionic feat you need to expend your psionic focus, where are you getting your 300,000 focuses from?Dominant Ideal allows you to use metapsionic effects on your chosen mantle without expending focus.


For that matter, where do you get the part about being able to apply the same metapsionic effect more than once? :smallconfused:There is nothing in the psionic rules anywhere that prevents applying a metapsionic effect more than once. For some, such as Burrowing Power, Quicken Power, or Maximize Power, applying multiples has no effect, but there's nothing preventing you from applying Empower multiple times.

Usually this isn't a problem because you're restricted by the psionic focus mechanic, but with Dominant Ideal in play...

[TheSunKing]

You are, if I am reading correctly, misapplying the rules of augmenting.

The Dominant Ideal ACF lets you reduce the cost of augmenting a power by 2. However, this 2 point reduction applies once and only once per manifestation of the power. That is to say that, an Energy Burst cast by a level 10 Dominant Ideal Ardent could augment the spell up to a max of 12pp cost, but doing so would only cost him 10pp.

It seems to me that you are interpreting the reduction as applying to each of the +1pp 'iterations' of the augmentation. This is certainly not legal.

I understand what you are saying (and it seems to be a balanced interpretation of the Variant) but I have two questions:

By the way you're putting it, why can't you augment to 14? You are only spending 12, your natural maximum, due to the reduction?

Second, what basis are you using for interpreting the variant this way? "Reducing the cost of augmenting" seems like how I've interpreted it also makes sense (by English grammar, not necessarily by rules). Is there a similar cost reduction ability that gives an example as to how it works?

[shaikujin]

Dominant Ideal allows you to use metapsionic effects on your chosen mantle without expending focus.

There is nothing in the psionic rules anywhere that prevents applying a metapsionic effect more than once. For some, such as Burrowing Power, Quicken Power, or Maximize Power, applying multiples has no effect, but there's nothing preventing you from applying Empower multiple times.

Usually this isn't a problem because you're restricted by the psionic focus mechanic, but with Dominant Ideal in play...


Alternatively, would this provide RAW precedence?

Fortify Power (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020426b)



Fortify Power [Metapsionic]

Special: You can apply Fortify Power to the same power multiple times. Each time you apply it, the power is fortified another twenty-five percent, and it costs 2 more power points.




However, I do have another question. Does Metapower only affect a specific power once each time you select the feat? ie, to apply Fortify Power twice, do I have to take Metapower twice as well to reduce the cost by 4?

[lord_khaine]

There is nothing in the psionic rules anywhere that prevents applying a metapsionic effect more than once. For some, such as Burrowing Power, Quicken Power, or Maximize Power, applying multiples has no effect, but there's nothing preventing you from applying Empower multiple times.

Usually this isn't a problem because you're restricted by the psionic focus mechanic, but with Dominant Ideal in play...

At the same time, there isnt anything in the rules that makes it possibel to apply a metapsionic effect more than once.
And in that case things would fall back to the regular rules for stacking effects, where bonuses from repeated uses of an effect doesnt stack unless specificly mentioned.


Alternatively, would this provide RAW precedence?

Fortify Power

Quote:
Fortify Power [Metapsionic]

Special: You can apply Fortify Power to the same power multiple times. Each time you apply it, the power is fortified another twenty-five percent, and it costs 2 more power points.


However, I do have another question. Does Metapower only affect a specific power once each time you select the feat? ie, to apply Fortify Power twice, do I have to take Metapower twice as well to reduce the cost by 4?

Unfortunately wizards are bad at marking their material, and thats 3.0 rules those feats ect are made for.

[Emmerask]

At the same time, there isnt anything in the rules that makes it possibel to apply a metapsionic effect more than once.
And in that case things would fall back to the regular rules for stacking effects, where bonuses from repeated uses of an effect doesnt stack unless specificly mentioned.

Yep, exactly that.
Except in cases where it explicitly (or in a rule somewhere) says that it stacks it does not stack.