Rains of Castamere question (Game of Thrones Spoilers)

[CowardlyPaladin]

Obviously massive spoilers ahoy. I was a book reader and I just finished the third season of the book, and since I think the secret of every person whose favorite work gets adapted secretly longs to see how people who otherwise wouldn't read it react to it. A sort of sharing if you will. So I have three questions for people, please indicate if you had read the book before hand or not. Also if your a book fan, please put Spoiler tags on the future scenes for the sake of show fans.


1) What was your initial reaction to the scene when you first saw it

2) In the next episode, what was your reaction to Roose Bolton conversation with Walder Frey and Tywin's conversation with Tyrion concerning the Red Wedding

3) How did this effect your overall appreciation for the show?


4) Alot of people are calling this a milestone in entertainment, what do you feel?

5) Did anybody catch the minstrials rendition of "Rains of Castamere" has the danger sign that it was?

6) How does this effect your feelings about the overall storyline? What do you want to happen?

7) If you've read the book version, what do you think of that, how does it compare? Or visa versa.


Please no arguments about what version is better, I'm just curious. For me personally, a friend of mine who had also read the book told me that they changed the Red Wedding so that Rob and Cat are able to escape on the back of Grey Wind, so when I went into this episode I was good and pissed off because I thought they had ruined it. Turns out my friend was lying, but I was right and angry when it started.


1) I really liked this version, I loved Rooses's wiry facial expression and the sheer quickness of the entire scene. The scene was brutal, but I think what struck me was Walder's frey's casual "I'll find another" Also, I thought that Cat killing that poor girl really made the incident a little less black and white

2) I loved the fact that Roose and Tywin were casual about it, it wasn't personal, it was just business, and as Tywin points out killing a thousand men at a wedding is better than 10,000 at a war. I still hate them, but I like that they weren't like Joffrey, doing this out of some deluded need to please look macho, they were just being practical. I could easily see Tyrion doing the same honestly, if he felt it would save Jamie's life.

3) God, i was so scared that they would have Rob escape, this basically renewed my enthusiasm for both series.

4) Well I'm glad that people died without any sense of Glory, rather than dying over the course of an episode. I mean, people say Joss Wheden is ruthless, but I've never been very fazed in his work, only
Wash's Death was actually scary to me.
. I am an I Claudius fan, so i'm use to characters dying unexpectedly without much fanfare, but that was 1976 and I haven't seen much like i since

5) God, that song haunts my nightmares

6-7) No comment

What do you think?

[Darth Credence]

Read all the books as they came out - hurry up and write before you go the way of Robert Jordan, George!



1) What was your initial reaction to the scene when you first saw it

Loved it. Thought it was a great rendition of the scene I had been waiting for since the show started.


2) In the next episode, what was your reaction to Roose Bolton conversation with Walder Frey and Tywin's conversation with Tyrion concerning the Red Wedding
About what I expected from them. From their POV, they did the right thing, and it probably saved lives in the long run (almost certainly saved Lannister lives)


3) How did this effect your overall appreciation for the show?
I already thought the show is one of the best ever made, and still do.



4) Alot of people are calling this a milestone in entertainment, what do you feel?
It was definitely something that really hadn't been done in a TV show for a long time to my knowledge. Ned's death in Season 1 was shocking, but the wholesale slaughter of major characters in a continuing show was pretty much unprecedented. I think Spartacus had a similar large number of deaths in one season finale, but it wasn't clear if the show was continuing, and they backtracked and let Lucy Lawless survive. (I don't know I Claudius, so I don't know how it compares.)


5) Did anybody catch the minstrials rendition of "Rains of Castamere" has the danger sign that it was?
Was in the book, and the name of the episode, so I knew it was coming.


6) How does this effect your feelings about the overall storyline? What do you want to happen?
Wow. Spoiler tags for this. Seriously, I'm going to do some massive spoiling here.
I think it had to happen. This is not, ultimately, the story of the War of the Five Kings, it is the story of Ice and Fire. So this had to be taken care of in order to move towards that. Ultimately, what I want and expect is that Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister will eventually be revealed as Targaryens and take their place as the other two heads of the dragons. I am 99% sure that Jon Snow was not Ned's bastard, but rather was his sister's child with Rhaegar Targaryen. When Ned got to her, she was described as dying in a bed of blood, which is how childbirth has been described in other places, and telling Ned to promise her. I believe she just had Jon, and wanted Ned to promise to protect him, because Robert would kill any Targaryen child. So He said Jon was his bastard. Since I can't believe Ned's honor would have allowed him to father a bastard, but I can easily believe his honor would let him pretend he had to keep a promise, it is what makes sense.
I'm about 70% on Tyrion. The Mad King was in love with Tywin's wife, Tywin often acts like Tyrion is a bastard, and Tyrion was born with a tail. I may be reading too much into it since Tyrion has always been my favorite character, but I think it fits.
I think in the end, those three will take to the skies on dragonback to fight the others. (Yes, this means I think that Jon survives the knife attack.)


7) If you've read the book version, what do you think of that, how does it compare? Or visa versa.
The book version was great - as I said, I had been waiting for this scene since the show started. But the TV version was bloodier, and showed the whole thing. Robb's wife was not there in the book, so her death to kick it off was more than the book had. Seeing Grey Wind's head on Robb's body was so much worse than reading it, and reading it was pretty bad.

[SuperPanda]

I've not yet read the books. After finishing season 1 and being half way through season 2 I started to read book 2 (didn't have book 1 handy) and found I was enjoying the show more than the books. Will eventually go back and read them though, just haven't done so yet.


1) What was your initial reaction to the scene when you first saw it

- I got the feeling something was wrong with Frey a while back. My book-reading friends had been vibrating about something going on and encouraging all kinds of speculation. I'd transfered my own knowledge of Martin's source material into the show and believed however that Guest-Right (or highland hospitality) would be sacred even to scum like Frey (Bolton not so sure about).

Honestly I didn't connect Bolton's face to Jamie from before or I'd have been nervous alot sooner than I was.

As soon as I heard the song though I knew what was going to go down. I just wasn't prepared for how brutal it was (particularly the stabbing of the baby). The heart-string pull with "little Ned" right before was pure evil on the director/writer's part and I both hate/love them for it.

My initial reaction to the scene was wishing the White Walkers would hurry up and kill off everyone in Westeros because I couldn't see how his meant anything other than a Lannister Vicory and I wanted to see their ranks in Chaos from a new threat before Rob was silenced. I'd known his story was over, I'd hopped little-finger, Stannis, Greyjoy, Tyrion, or Danny would be a in a position to keep up the conflict before Rob's death though. (Not counting Bran/Jon... they're story seems tangental at best).


2) In the next episode, what was your reaction to Roose Bolton conversation with Walder Frey and Tywin's conversation with Tyrion concerning the Red Wedding

I honestly don't remember much of Bolton/Frey in the following episode. They didn't do much about it. Twyin, Tyrion, Cersei, and Joffery though was yet another scene that made me despise most of the Lannister court. Joffery was begging for a slap which he sadly didn't get.

Tywin's reasoning isn't that bad, and I might be able to get behind it if it wasn't for the obvious glee Frey had taken in the sheer brutality of the event. Frey (in the episode before) was almost clapping and cheering at different points, particularly with Robb sobbing over his dying wife and dead baby. Tywin is backing and empowering Joffery who is a rabid dog that desperately needs to be reigned in and/or put down... something Tywin is unable to do (I see Tywin intimidating Joffery, but its more about being a bigger - meaner - dog than Joffery is and not about actually getting Joffery to behave... Left alone there is an inevitable confrontation there... I somewhat suspect it won't come to that because Tywin is smart).

Tyrion continues to be one of the few "political" characters I can reliably like. And While I agree he might have done the same... he'd never have gloated about it and used it to cause suffering to someone who hadn't wronged him.

3) How did this effect your overall appreciation for the show?

I like the political nuance... but the show feels "over" in a way. Joffery is King, he has won. Stannis's resistance is a joke, The greyjoys don't have the numbers or reach to be more than a nusiance, Danny is still years away (waiting for her dragons to grow up). About the only way the "conflict for the crown" could continue would be for Joffery to be assasinated by a member of his own court and Twyin do to something stupid like declare himself King (or Worse, make Jamie King which would could be seen as recognizing that Jamie was Joffery's father).

Show wise (ignoring the source books for a while), they set up season 4 to be about dealing with the White walkers... a story focused on Bran, Jon Snow, and apparently Stannis who I expect will be alone in rallying to the aid of the wall (he actually respects duty, no one else seems to).

This leaves King's Landing more or less secure and the Kingdom stable again. Danny's growing in power but too far away to be an imediate pressence...

4) Alot of people are calling this a milestone in entertainment, what do you feel?

The Show is fantastically cast. Top-notch peformances across the board. The directors (sound, cinemtography, casting, ect.) are all amazing at their jobs. The screen adaptation has been amazing (I have good friends who read the books and complain when things don't match their expectations... what surprises me is how often I come away with the same interpretation of the show that they feel the show "failed" to show the audience... Like the fight between Jamie and Brienne where he tells me how it felt in the book and I tell him I read the same thing from the show, but he didn't because he was too busy looking at the differences.

5) Did anybody catch the minstrials rendition of "Rains of Castamere" has the danger sign that it was?

Yeah... I got really quiet when I heard that.

6) How does this effect your feelings about the overall storyline? What do you want to happen?

I no longer care if there is a happy ending, just that there is an ending. I don't know I've ever been really interested in a story that I'd be equally happy seeing end with everyone dead as with someone triumphant. Bring on the fire, bring on the Ice... lets see what kills westeros first.

7) If you've read the book version, what do you think of that, how does it compare? Or visa versa.

N/A

[Eldan]

There's still a few players around. We just haven't seen much of them in the show yet. Without any spoilers: So far, we've seen the north and center of the kingdom. There's still the very south. And Highgarden.

[SuperPanda]

Since I've got lots of book-fan friends I'm aware that there is still tons to go, my comment was more that ending it where they did gives a feeling of finality to the story of "conflict of kings" and in the TV show makes room for a new conflict.

I'm pretty sure they won't turn their attention to dealing with the Zombie appocolaypse or the Dragons marching on them just yet.... but the way the show did it makes whatever contest for the throne comes next feel less like part of the same story and more like a sequel (up until now I could believe/feel it was all part of the same single epic. Now we're obviously moving into Game of Thrones II: The Lion King.) Or at least, that is how the plot pacing of the show made me feel.

[JustPlayItLoud]

1) What was your initial reaction to the scene when you first saw it

A coworker and I that have both not read the books were discussing it a couple of days before. We thought Rob was going to die, but neither of us anticipated the sheer brutality of it all or the fact that they would kill everyone. I'm not sure either of us specifically pinned the act on Frey either.



2) In the next episode, what was your reaction to Roose Bolton conversation with Walder Frey and Tywin's conversation with Tyrion concerning the Red Wedding

I waited for something more exciting to happen



3) How did this effect[sic] your overall appreciation for the show?

When I first started watching the show, I caught up through two and a half seasons in only a couple of days. Before and after the last few episodes of the season, I was a twitchy dope fiend waiting for my next fix. Which is to say, it did not affect my appreciation at all.



4) Alot[sic] of people are calling this a milestone in entertainment, what do you feel?

I think the whole show is, in general, an entertainment milestone. It's a specific genre piece that dares to tell compelling stories and create complex characters, but still works within the framework of the genre without relegating the genre to little more than the set pieces of the show. Furthermore, it has drawn in non-fans of the genre because of the quality of the stories and characters. It's the next Sopranos.



5) Did anybody catch the minstrials[sic] rendition of "Rains of Castamere" has the danger sign that it was?

Had no idea about the song, but they made it glaringly obvious that something was up. I just didn't realize the significance of the specific piece of music.



6) How does this effect your feelings about the overall storyline? What do you want to happen?

Rob honestly seemed doomed to failure from the beginning. He may have had a natural aptitude for battlefield command and strategy, but I feel like his banner men and luck had more to do with his success than anything. He was a boy playing king, and ultimately died because he couldn't play the Game. His mother died because she made grabbed the idiot ball in letting Jamie Lannister go, thereby helping to set into motion the chain of events that eventually got her killed. Everyone else died because they were loyal to two people who made very bad decisions.

I imagine Frey will eventually end up dead. I suspect the Lannisters will find he's outlived his usefulness and betray him in a similarly spectacular fashion to the Red Wedding. As far as the Lannisters:

Tywin and Tyrion are magnificent bastards and are very good at it. It's hard to hate them just for knowing how to play the game.

Jamie had nothing to do with it, and they've clearly started down the road of a redemption story with him after his travels with Brienne.

Cersei is no longer a major player. She's not nearly as intelligent or clever as she thinks she is. She isn't especially charismatic. She can't fight. She learned how to play her power, but that's waning with Joffrey becoming increasingly unhinged and her father as the Hand. I don't think she'll live much longer.



7) If you've read the book version, what do you think of that, how does it compare? Or visa[sic] versa.

Haven't read one single word of the books, though now I'm thinking I might need to. So N/A

[Math_Mage]

As a book reader...

1. I was surprised to see Talisa die, since Jeyne Westerling supposedly survives in the books (though there's a lot of speculation about whether the Jeyne we see in AFFC/ADWD is the same person). I took it as an indication that Jeyne isn't going to be particularly important for the rest of the series.

2. I reflected that there sit the two coldest, most passionless men in the entire show--and yet not the least trustworthy.

3. Not much. It was an excellent show before, and it's an excellent show now. The test of the show, to me, remains how it handles Books 4 and 5, which I didn't much like, in contrast to the first three.

6. I don't think A Song of Ice and Fire has an overall storyline, and that's both a strength and a weakness. This is a world, more than a storyline. Case in point: the series is nominally A Song of Ice and Fire, but Dany's dragons and the White Walkers have barely played a role at all. The overwhelming focus has been on a game of thrones that is largely irrelevant to the 'overarching' storyline of magic, dragons, and the long winter returning to a mundane world. But the game is a story in its own right and deserves to be told (though, again, I dislike how it plays out in books 4/5).

One of the consequences of this is that the Red Wedding is both relevant and irrelevant. It's important to the game of thrones, as it beheads a major player in the War of Five Kings and leaves the Lannisters all but ascendant for the moment. But in another sense, Robb and Catelyn were never major characters in the long story revolving around Daenerys, Jon Snow, Bran, Arya (?), Sam, Aemon Targaryen, Tyrion, Varys, and Euron Crow's Eye--or should I say Jon Targaryen and Aemon Blackfyre?

7. I think the book has a lot more atmosphere and detail, but also a lot more filler and unnecessary detail. So it goes.

[ArlEammon]

Oh, by the way, sorry for not following the OP format. I'll look into it in a sec, but since I haven't read the books and only seen the Red Wedding, and not even a full episode, I don't know if I can.

I have no knowledge of the books, but a couple of castrations and no sign of Bolton/Snow getting his just desserts in the future make me mad enough not to read them.

BUT, there might be hope for a happy ending with good guys if perhaps someone arises from the ashes of war, similar to how the Jin ending up usurping Wei in Romance of the Three Kingdoms, only this time the mastermind should be a good guy.

[Psyren]

A
One of the consequences of this is that the Red Wedding is both relevant and irrelevant. It's important to the game of thrones, as it beheads a major player in the War of Five Kings and leaves the Lannisters all but ascendant for the moment. But in another sense, Robb and Catelyn were never major characters in the long story revolving around Daenerys, Jon Snow, Bran, Arya (?), Sam, Aemon Targaryen, Tyrion, Varys, and Euron Crow's Eye--or should I say Jon Targaryen and Aemon Blackfyre?

Well, the major consequence of the RW is that guest right is no longer held sacred by anyone, including by the "good guys." This has heavy consequences for the Freys/Roose/Ramsay. which directly affects Jon Snow. If Jon turns out to be the major player in the true conflict that we think he is, what happened at the Crossing will influence his outlook and actions for the rest of the story.

[SoC175]

5) Did anybody catch the minstrials rendition of "Rains of Castamere" has the danger sign that it was? If I didn't already knew it, I don't think I would. The melody might have tipped me off that something bad was about to happen, but I doubt I would have recognized the song.


Sidenote: After episode nine & ten there can't be any doubt that Boromir is the father of both Rob and Jon :smallbiggrin: