Paladins and Spellcasting

[Red.Tide]

None of the more prominent Paladin characters - Miko, O-Chul, Hinjo, Lien, and Thanh - are ever seen to cast a single spell (Detect Evil is a class feature, not a spell for Paladins, as are Lay on Hands and Smite Evil). Paladins get their first spell at level 6 if their Wisdom is 11, and at level 4 if it's higher. So I could see Thanh being too low a level, but certainly not the rest. Furthermore, all of them seem to have decent Wis scores; in particular, I think that O-Chul and Hinjo should have more than enough to cast low-level spells.

I could be remembering incorrectly, but I believe that everyone from Azure City who has been seen to cast spells (except Tsukiko and the teleportation Wizard) is dressed like a cleric in the Temple, wearing blue robes and sporting an exposed Holy symbol. Although some of these casters appear with the Paladins in SoD and in Xykon's throne room (explicitly stated to be guarded only by Paladins), their costume differences imply that they are multiclass Paladins/Clerics, and get their spellcasting solely from their Cleric levels.

If you accept the above theory, then no Paladins in the OotS world casts spells. Even if you don't, only a small fraction even of high-level Paladins cast spells. Now, we know that Rangers (the other main half-caster class) explicitly DO get spellcasting, and it's only Belkar's low Wisdom score that prevents him from taking advantage of that.

So I'm curious as to others' thoughts on why this is. Has this been addressed or discussed elsewhere? Am I just forgetting some instances of spellcasting? Did the Giant come out and say at some point that Paladins in his story don't get spells?

Edit (paraphrased from my post below): In the Giant's description of the off-panel fight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639) between Miko and OotS, at the end of the fight, Miko casts Cure Light Wounds twice. But, still, no casting on-panel when you would expect to have at least seen some by now.

[AstralFire]

Paladin spells in Core are boring and primarily short duration buffs to their weapon (can be compressed into Smite Evil), minor heals (compress into lay on hands) and minor buffs (can be compressed into divine power). As a general rule, the 4th level half-casters can really be described as, "We didn't want to take the time to make actual class features, so we just juryrigged this instead."

[TRH]

Well, keep in mind that Miko and O-Chul were a Monk and a Fighter, respectively before becoming Paladins, so they might not have had four or six levels in it. And since we don't have complete character sheets for the other Paladins, either, the same excuse might also be relevant for them. Probably not a comprehensive explanation, but it's a start.

[Red.Tide]

Well, keep in mind that Miko and O-Chul were a Monk and a Fighter, respectively before becoming Paladins, so they might not have had four or six levels in it. And since we don't have complete character sheets for the other Paladins, either, the same excuse might also be relevant for them. Probably not a comprehensive explanation, but it's a start.

Good point; I hadn't thought about that. The Class and Level Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282328) thread puts Miko (as well as Hinjo and Lien) as having at least 10 Paladin levels.

Interestingly, that thread provides a link to the Giant describing the off-panel fight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639) between Miko and OotS. At the end of the fight, Miko casts Cure Light Wounds twice. But, still, no casting on-panel when you would expect to have at least seen some by now. The plot thickens...

[Gift Jeraff]

It's interesting to note that the people in the throne room who looked like primary casters weren't shown as ghost-martyrs.

[theNater]

By the time a paladin gets third level spells(which is about as high as the paladins we've met could reasonably use) third level spells are 6 levels out of date. Clerics can cast at least five a day while the paladin might have one or two; it's more efficient to have a cleric cast the spell if there is a cleric around.

[Vinsfeld]

Paladin spells in Core are boring and primarily short duration buffs to their weapon (can be compressed into Smite Evil), minor heals (compress into lay on hands) and minor buffs (can be compressed into divine power). As a general rule, the 4th level half-casters can really be described as, "We didn't want to take the time to make actual class features, so we just juryrigged this instead."

I also think that this is it. Paladin's spells are not quite worth spending a whole round during a battle to cast it. I don't think Miko would waste a round casting CLW while 5 members of the Order were attacking her. As for the others, maybe they just didn't have the chance, I mean, we mostly saw Hinjo in action during a war. And O-chul might not be a level 6 paladin, since he was a fighter first.

[Grey Watcher]

I'm pretty sure in O-Chul's case, at least, that he just doesn't have enough levels in Paladin. Note that unlike Miko, Hinjo, and Lien, he's never shown summoning a mount (like Windstriker, Argent, or Razor).

As for the others, I'm going to echo the conventional wisdom here that a Paladin's spell list is mostly about pre-battle buffs and minor healing, the kind of stuff that's generally not worth spending the space to depict, especially when the plot is going to be advanced within the combat itself.

[Tock Zipporah]

We've also never seen paladins Remove Disease or Turn Undead (at least, as far as I can ever remember, the only Undead Turning in the comic has been done by clerics). We've never seen any evidence on Belkar's favored enemies or woodland stride. We've never seen Haley demonstrate any of the rogue special abilities (crippling strike, skill mastery, defensive roll, etc).

That doesn't mean these abilities "don't exist" in OotS. It just means there's never been a story-based reason to show them.

Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it isn't there. It just means you haven't seen it.

[Grey Watcher]

We've also never seen paladins Remove Disease or Turn Undead (at least, as far as I can ever remember, the only Undead Turning in the comic has been done by clerics). We've never seen any evidence on Belkar's favored enemies or woodland stride. We've never seen Haley demonstrate any of the rogue special abilities (crippling strike, skill mastery, defensive roll, etc).

That doesn't mean these abilities "don't exist" in OotS. It just means there's never been a story-based reason to show them.

Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it isn't there. It just means you haven't seen it.

While I agree with your point in general, we have actually seen a Paladin Turn Undead. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0514.html)

[Holy_Knight]

We've also never seen paladins Remove Disease or Turn Undead (at least, as far as I can ever remember, the only Undead Turning in the comic has been done by clerics). We've never seen any evidence on Belkar's favored enemies or woodland stride. We've never seen Haley demonstrate any of the rogue special abilities (crippling strike, skill mastery, defensive roll, etc).

That doesn't mean these abilities "don't exist" in OotS. It just means there's never been a story-based reason to show them.

Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it isn't there. It just means you haven't seen it.
This seems right to me. I had also noticed, and thought it was odd, that we'd never seen a paladin cast a spell, but that doesn't have to mean that they can't.

[Tock Zipporah]

While I agree with your point in general, we have actually seen a Paladin Turn Undead. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0514.html)

I figured I might have forgotten one.

But yes, the general point is "Don't assume something doesn't exist just because you haven't seen it." I find it fascinating how this forum constantly gets obsessed with the idea that "There's no evidence in OotS for X, therefore X CANNOT be true!!!"

That and the endless semantic arguments. I should write a paper on it. Really, I should.

[AstralFire]

To be fair: This discussion is based around MAY not be true, not CANNOT.

[Tock Zipporah]

To be fair: This discussion is based around MAY not be true, not CANNOT.

And thus we enter the semantic portion of the discussion. Right on cue :)

[DeliaP]

I find it fascinating how this forum constantly gets obsessed with the idea that "There's no evidence in OotS for X, therefore X CANNOT be true!!!"

Well, yes, also don't forget the occurrence of:

"There's no evidence in OotS that X isn't true, therefore X MUST be true!!!"

which is (usually) an even worse logical fallacy.

[AstralFire]

And thus we enter the semantic portion of the discussion. Right on cue :)

...No, no we don't. We entered the portion of the discussion where you threw your hands up at other people doing things you didn't like and I pointed out that they weren't doing the hyperbolic behavior you didn't like, and tried to gently suggest that maybe we should let people speculate harmlessly if that is their wont.

The topic is a question, the topic is thoughts for discussion, the topic is idle space occupying time until more updates occur, the topic is not jumping in your face and telling you to shut up and accept a given theory. The latter may or may not occur at some point.

[Snails]

Miko could easily have had a Wis 10 or lower. If so, she would not be able to cast regardless of paladin levels.

Having played Paladins, the spells are not so attractive to cast in the middle of battle, so it is not worth slowing the pace of the story. The best Core choices are minor buffs.

More importantly, I would note that Xykon and Redcloak and Durkon surely cast buff spells before going into combat, yet we only very very rarely see that on panel. Is that because they do not do it? Are not capable? Of course they can! It would bore the Reader to show that.

[137beth]

Good point; I hadn't thought about that. The Class and Level Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282328) thread puts Miko (as well as Hinjo and Lien) as having at least 10 Paladin levels.

Interestingly, that thread provides a link to the Giant describing the off-panel fight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639) between Miko and OotS. At the end of the fight, Miko casts Cure Light Wounds twice. But, still, no casting on-panel when you would expect to have at least seen some by now. The plot thickens...

I hate to break it to ya, but there's really no reason to show out-of-combat CLW using on-panel. It's boring. It's simple. It doesn't add anything to the plot.

[Snails]

That doesn't mean these abilities "don't exist" in OotS. It just means there's never been a story-based reason to show them.


Exactly. There is no story-based reason to justify either (1) risk confusing non-D&D experts with a weird new ability appearing, or (2) slow down the story with exposition.

Notice how elegantly the Giant introduced Mage Slayer. Roy gave us a good hint what was coming in the afterlife. Then we got to see it function in his rune-induced fantasy victory.

Yes, the Giant could do this for other abilities, but is it worth the bother?

[Tock Zipporah]

...No, no we don't. We entered the portion of the discussion where you threw your hands up at other people doing things you didn't like and I pointed out that they weren't doing the hyperbolic behavior you didn't like, and tried to gently suggest that maybe we should let people speculate harmlessly if that is their wont.

The topic is a question, the topic is thoughts for discussion, the topic is idle space occupying time until more updates occur, the topic is not jumping in your face and telling you to shut up and accept a given theory. The latter may or may not occur at some point.

Wow. Way to completely misinterpret a harmless joke.

[AstralFire]

Then I apologize for my reaction.

[Tock Zipporah]

Then I apologize for my reaction.

No problem at all. I apologize for my excessive sarcasm. I tend to forget that forum postings lack the nonverbal cues (such as tone of voice) that would indicate whether a statement is meant to be harsh or jestful.

[veti]

I have speculated in the past that "Paladin of the Sapphire Guard" is not, in fact, the core 'paladin' class, but rather a closely-related homebrewed prestige class.

(There's not a lot of evidence for this - it does smooth over some of the questions that come up from time to time, but mostly it's my personal belief that 'paladin' should never have been a core class in the first place. Firstly, because every paladinic order is unique, so it's silly to have a "standard" set of rules and abilities, and secondly, because paladins are supposed to be an elite corps of proven dedication and loyalty, so the idea of starting your career in that position makes no sense - like joining the Navy Seals straight out of basic training.)

You can choose to read it that way. Unless the Giant goes out of his way to contradict the theory, it's pretty much unfalsifiable. And then you can just stop worrying about little niggles like this.

(And in anticipation of the obvious rejoinder: what exactly do you mean by 'correct'?)

[AstralFire]

You start as paladins from a young age, though. It's more akin to Pre-OT Jedi than USAF SpecOps.

[veti]

You start as paladins from a young age, though. It's more akin to Pre-OT Jedi than USAF SpecOps.

See point 1. In the Sapphire Guard specifically, we know that neither Miko nor O-Chul "started as paladins from a young age" - they both had levels in other classes first. I see nothing to suggest that it's the norm to train for the job from childhood (Hinjo being the presumed exception).

[AstralFire]

I'm referring to paladins in general, not specifically the Sapphire Guard.

[137beth]

...No, no we don't. We entered the portion of the discussion where you threw your hands up at other people doing things you didn't like and I pointed out that they weren't doing the hyperbolic behavior you didn't like, and tried to gently suggest that maybe we should let people speculate harmlessly if that is their wont.

The topic is a question, the topic is thoughts for discussion, the topic is idle space occupying time until more updates occur, the topic is not jumping in your face and telling you to shut up and accept a given theory. The latter may or may not occur at some point.

And thus we enter the meta-semantic portion of the discussion, in which we argue about the semantics of a semantic argument, right on cue!


I'm referring to paladins in general, not specifically the Sapphire Guard.
I would think that that is a point in favor of Yeti's idea of each paladin order being unique, and therefore there not being a "standard" paladin.

[Carry2]

...mostly it's my personal belief that 'paladin' should never have been a core class in the first place. Firstly, because every paladinic order is unique, so it's silly to have a "standard" set of rules and abilities, and secondly, because paladins are supposed to be an elite corps of proven dedication and loyalty, so the idea of starting your career in that position makes no sense - like joining the Navy Seals straight out of basic training.
I can see some logic to that. But D&D class descriptors are less about genuine in-world social verisimilitude and were (originally) more about recreating the archetype-cliches of fantasy literature. There is no barbarian 'class' in Hyboria, because Conan is unusual even by the standards of other Cimmerians. There is a barbarian class in D&D because people wanted to play somebody like Conan. Or Lancelot, as the case may be.

If you really want to cover a character's career in depth, you should probably be using a lifepath system.


Miko could easily have had a Wis 10 or lower. If so, she would not be able to cast regardless of paladin levels.
There seems to be virtually no correlation between Miko's ostensible mental attributes (which all have to be positive*, because math) and her observed behaviour. (Unless Miko is, like, really stunningly good-looking. If we went by actual evidence of persuasiveness, tact and leadership qualities, O-Chul would probably have Cha of 16+, not a stat penalty.)

[Kish]

I have speculated in the past that "Paladin of the Sapphire Guard" is not, in fact, the core 'paladin' class, but rather a closely-related homebrewed prestige class.

(There's not a lot of evidence for this - it does smooth over some of the questions that come up from time to time, but mostly it's my personal belief that 'paladin' should never have been a core class in the first place. Firstly, because every paladinic order is unique, so it's silly to have a "standard" set of rules and abilities, and secondly, because paladins are supposed to be an elite corps of proven dedication and loyalty, so the idea of starting your career in that position makes no sense - like joining the Navy Seals straight out of basic training.)

You can choose to read it that way. Unless the Giant goes out of his way to contradict the theory, it's pretty much unfalsifiable. And then you can just stop worrying about little niggles like this.

(And in anticipation of the obvious rejoinder: what exactly do you mean by 'correct'?)
I could imagine the "rejoinder" you're expecting, but it's not the response I was going to make. (If it was, however, my answer to your anticipatory dodge would be, "You know perfectly well, or you wouldn't have been able to put the question there.")

My rejoinder is, rather, that when reading a humorous work that deconstructs certain D&D rules, declaring that the rules being deconstructed are rather being house-ruled away defeats the purpose of the exercise. Rather like a king who, in response to having embarrassing difficulty pronouncing the word "purple," declares it a capital offense to mix the colors red and blue.

[veti]

I can see some logic to that. But D&D class descriptors are less about genuine in-world social verisimilitude and were (originally) more about recreating the archetype-cliches of fantasy literature. There is no barbarian 'class' in Hyboria, because Conan is unusual even by the standards of other Cimmerians. There is a barbarian class in D&D because people wanted to play somebody like Conan. Or Lancelot, as the case may be.

Yesbut, who wants to play either of those characters at first level...?

Conan swung his sword in a wide arc, cursing as it yet again failed to connect. From out of the darkness two feral eyes seemed to laugh at him, as he felt the rat's teeth sink into his calf once more. He felt his strength ebbing away...

I think 'prestige class' meets the case perfectly. You work up levels as a fighter (or monk, or cleric, or other, as the case may be), you consistently show your loyalty and trustworthiness under the most difficult circumstances, and eventually a grateful ruler invites you to become a paladin. If you don't show the right traits, you don't get the invite, no matter how qualified you are otherwise.

It does open the line of thought: maybe, if Shojo had been a paladin himself, Miko would never have got that invite. Because Shojo was chaotic, and didn't really understand the importance of duty, honour and obedience, he thought he could work around Miko's character flaws and take advantage of her good traits while just ignoring the - well, insanity. (From a chaotic point of view, there's not much difference between 'unquestioning obedience' and 'insanity' anyway...) But a paladin would have seen that difference, and known that it should have disqualified Miko from the get-go.

[Kish]

There is no need to pretend that "paladins of the Sapphire Guard" are a prestige class in OotS to conjecture that, if Shojo had been Lawful and/or wiser, he would never have had Miko taken from the monastery.

--Or to more kindly conjecture that he would have had the ability and the desire to influence Miko to overcome her character flaws, rather than leaving her to embrace them as part of what made her (in her mind) the best possible paladin.

Edit: And you're dodging Carry2's point. If it makes no sense for a first-level character to be a paladin, it makes no sense for a first-level character to be a barbarian. Or a monk. And wizards certainly don't have less training than paladins do. Either there is more life in "before I was a first-level character of a PC class" than you're allowing...or really, everyone should start off with levels of warrior or expert, multiclassing to one of the standard PC classes once they've become something more like one of the heroes of fantasy stories.

[Carry2]

Yesbut, who wants to play either of those characters at first level...?
Hmm. Fair point. (I think Dungeon World manages this reasonably well, but it makes it explicit that the PCs are simply in another league from other characters in the world, even if they call themselves wizards or clerics, straight from day one. However, Dungeon World PCs show substantially less power creep over time- they start out relatively badass and stay that way.)

One point I would raise, however, is that medieval knights typically belonged to a hereditary aristocracy, so that in a sense, you really are 'born' into the profession (well, after being a page and squire for a while.) It's possible to [i]be[i] knighted of course, but those were exceptions rather than the rule, similar to multiclassing. Or maybe the Paladin should be a prestige class for the Aristocrat? Y'know what, let's just lifepaths.


...Because Shojo was chaotic, and didn't really understand the importance of duty, honour and obedience, he thought he could work around Miko's character flaws and take advantage of her good traits while just ignoring the - well, insanity.
The flaw in this argument is that the Miko we meet at the start of the strip is not insane. She is a tad preachy, shrill and presumptuous, but genuinely puts her life in danger for others, tries to accommodate their wishes as far as is compatible with fulfilling her mission, and adjusts her beliefs in response to fresh evidence. She certainly values duty and obedience, even if her sense of honour is more by the letter than by the spirit, so I'm not sure where that remark is coming from. And this is a Miko who had found things 'hadn't made sense for years', so one might theorise she was more cool and collected previously.

I do recall a quote by the author suggesting that Shojo was actually a significant positive influence on Miko, in that he saw she 'needed discipline to function', and would otherwise have left the monastery as an 'angry, unstable loner with no sense of purpose in life.' So I don't see Shojo taking her under wing his being a bad move as such. For a significant chunk of her career, there is reasonable evidence that she was a highly effective asset for the organisation, and while her downfall certainly had a good deal with her demonstable character flaws, there was than an awful lot of external contributing factors there.

[white lancer]

You could make an argument that Hinjo is casting a Cure spell on O-Chul in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html). Granted, it could be Lay On Hands, but I usually find that only the hands glow when a Paladin uses Lay On Hands in OotS (there could, of course, be exceptions that I'm missing).

[veti]

There is no need to pretend that "paladins of the Sapphire Guard" are a prestige class in OotS to conjecture that, if Shojo had been Lawful and/or wiser, he would never have had Miko taken from the monastery.

If 'paladin' is a base class like any other, then Shojo (or anyone else) couldn't stop Miko from taking levels in it. Heck, she could just declare herself to be a paladin of the 12 Gods, or of the People of Azure City, or something. Start her own order to rival the Sapphire Guard, maybe. There'd be no way to stop her. At that point, Shojo would be more or less forced to invite her to join, because even he could see that two rival paladin orders in the same city is hardly a recipe for harmony.

On the other hand, if the class is open by invitation only, Shojo would have had an effective veto over any such ambition.


Edit: And you're dodging Carry2's point. If it makes no sense for a first-level character to be a paladin, it makes no sense for a first-level character to be a barbarian. Or a monk. And wizards certainly don't have less training than paladins do. Either there is more life in "before I was a first-level character of a PC class" than you're allowing...or really, everyone should start off with levels of warrior or expert, multiclassing to one of the standard PC classes once they've become something more like one of the heroes of fantasy stories.

It's not a matter of training, it's a matter of qualification. Paladins have a whole bunch of extra rules over and above other classes. You don't just walk into paladinhood, you have to prove that you're paladin material.

As the rules stand, it's a lot easier to become a paladin than it is to become a blackguard. How does that make sense?


One point I would raise, however, is that medieval knights typically belonged to a hereditary aristocracy, so that in a sense, you really are 'born' into the profession (well, after being a page and squire for a while.)

Yep, and in D&D terms, the 'page' and 'squire' stage would last a good few levels, you wouldn't be a fully fledged knight until at least low-mid level (say, 6-7 or so). But those are just levels of "Fighter".

And a knight isn't the same thing as a paladin, not by a long chalk. Charlemagne had thousands of knights under him, but only 12 were ever titled 'paladins'. It's an elite rank. 'Elite' in the literal sense of 'chosen, hand-picked'.


The flaw in this argument is that the Miko we meet at the start of the strip is not insane.

I think she is insane, from the start. It's not so obvious at first, but the seed of paranoid delusion (the feeling that she's personally chosen, destined for something special, over and above any of her peers) is there from the start.

And yes, I'm sure being picked for the SG was good for her, and Shojo probably modulated her into a significantly better person than she would otherwise have been. But just because the role was good for her, doesn't mean she was good for it. Of course it's entirely speculative, but it is possible that, had the SG been commanded by a paladin, they would have decided from the get-go that Miko's character flaws were incompatible with paladinhood.

(Specifically: if you believe you're hand-picked by the gods for personal greatness, how can you possibly swear loyalty - and mean it - to a mere human? To Shojo, that wouldn't seem that big a deal, but a paladin would have known how important the 'unquestioning obedience' thing really is. Breaking that code is what finally tipped her over.)

[Kish]

If 'paladin' is a base class like any other, then Shojo (or anyone else) couldn't stop Miko from taking levels in it. Heck, she could just declare herself to be a paladin of the 12 Gods, or of the People of Azure City, or something. Start her own order to rival the Sapphire Guard, maybe. There'd be no way to stop her. At that point, Shojo would be more or less forced to invite her to join, because even he could see that two rival paladin orders in the same city is hardly a recipe for harmony.
That doesn't make any sense. Set aside that you're simultaneously arguing that Miko was always insane (I'm highly, highly dubious that someone who is paranoid delusional to the point of potentially murdering someone ever qualifies to be a paladin at all) and that, without Shojo taking her from the monastery and telling her she was chosen to be a paladin, she would still have wanted to be specifically a paladin for some reason.

How on Stickworld would this hypothetical Miko have ever learned the Sapphire Guard existed, either to declare herself one of them or to "rival" them? If you want to imagine implausible scenarios by which Miko could, somehow, have forced Shojo to invite her to join the Sapphire Guard, I raise you "if paladins of the Sapphire Guard were a prestige class Miko would totally have held Mr. Scruffy hostage to get Shojo to invite her to be one."

It's not a matter of training, it's a matter of qualification. Paladins have a whole bunch of extra rules over and above other classes. You don't just walk into paladinhood, you have to prove that you're paladin material.

As the rules stand, it's a lot easier to become a paladin than it is to become a blackguard. How does that make sense?

Blackguards don't have "extra rules over and above other classes." "Must follow a code" is not a basis for a class being a prestige class. (It is a basis for random lunatics not randomly becoming members of that class though...) Rather, specific non-starting entry requirements--in the blackguard's case, "must have friendly contact with an evil outsider during adventuring career"--are a basis for a class being a prestige class.

[veti]

How on Stickworld would this hypothetical Miko have ever learned the Sapphire Guard existed, either to declare herself one of them or to "rival" them?

She doesn't have to know the SG exists. She just has to wake up one day and decide "the gods have chosen me, henceforth I shall be their Holy Paladin!" (Insert slashes to taste.) She doesn't even need training - she already has levels in a PC class, so she can switch any time.

Then she starts recruiting like-minded lunatics to join her Holy Crusade against, I dunno, Defilers of Mattresses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0227.html) or something. In that scenario, sooner or later she'd learn of the Sapphire Guard's existence, and can you seriously doubt that when she did so, she'd consider them a danger to her holy work?


Blackguards don't have "extra rules over and above other classes."

Exactly. And yet you have to work hard to become a blackguard.

But anyone can just write a few words on their character sheet and declare themself a paladin. That. Makes. No. Sense.

[Kish]

She doesn't have to know the SG exists. She just has to wake up one day and decide "the gods have chosen me, henceforth I shall be their Holy Paladin!" (Insert slashes to taste.) She doesn't even need training - she already has levels in a PC class, so she can switch any time.

Then she starts recruiting like-minded lunatics to join her Holy Crusade against, I dunno, Defilers of Mattresses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0227.html) or something. In that scenario, sooner or later she'd learn of the Sapphire Guard's existence, and can you seriously doubt that when she did so, she'd consider them a danger to her holy work?

I can seriously doubt that any link in the hypothesis chain you just made (that Miko the Lunatic would found her own paladin order and inevitably learn of the existence of the Sapphire Guard) is valid, or that something so unlikely merits a tiny bit of hypothetical-Soon's concern, much less redefinition of the paladin class.



Exactly. And yet you have to work hard to become a blackguard.

But anyone can just write a few words on their character sheet and declare themself a paladin. That. Makes. No. Sense.
Ah, snipping and ignoring, how I've missed it.

Let me try again. Just once.

"Must follow a code" is not a basis for a class being a prestige class. (It is a basis for random lunatics not randomly becoming members of that class though...) Rather, specific non-starting entry requirements--in the blackguard's case, "must have friendly contact with an evil outsider during adventuring career"--are a basis for a class being a prestige class.

To amplify: No prestige class's requirements consist of, "You must follow a code to be a member of this class." (It may be one incidental requirement for a prestige class as easily as for a basic class, but it's never the definition of a prestige class.) You're arguing not that the paladin class should be something different than it is and that thing happens to coincide with a prestige class, but that prestige classes should be something different than what they are, and the defining feature for a prestige class should be what is currently the defining feature of the paladin basic class instead.

Now, personally, I believe prestige classes should be something different than what they are; I believe they shouldn't exist as classes at all.

But that has nothing to do with paladins or with any part of as-it-stands D&D, and still less to do with Miko, Shojo, or the Sapphire Guard.

[veti]

Ah, snipping and ignoring, how I've missed it.

Let me try again. Just once.

I ignored it because I didn't see the relevance. I still don't.


"Must follow a code" is not a basis for a class being a prestige class. (It is a basis for random lunatics not randomly becoming members of that class though...) Rather, specific non-starting entry requirements--in the blackguard's case, "must have friendly contact with an evil outsider during adventuring career"--are a basis for a class being a prestige class.

There are plenty of prestige classes whose entrance requirements include "must be invited to join". By nature they tend to be quite specific to a setting, but a few examples I'm sure you're familiar with include Knight Commander, Ur-Priest, Church Inquisitor, Neverwinter Nine, Shadow Thief of Amn. The people with the authority to give out such invitations, obviously, get to control who joins their club.

I think paladins should be in the same boat. You should have to demonstrate, to the satisfaction of a relevant authority, that you're paladin material before you're allowed to take levels in it. Is that really such a stretch?

[Emanick]

I ignored it because I didn't see the relevance. I still don't.



There are plenty of prestige classes whose entrance requirements include "must be invited to join". By nature they tend to be quite specific to a setting, but a few examples I'm sure you're familiar with include Knight Commander, Ur-Priest, Church Inquisitor, Neverwinter Nine, Shadow Thief of Amn. The people with the authority to give out such invitations, obviously, get to control who joins their club.

I think paladins should be in the same boat. You should have to demonstrate, to the satisfaction of a relevant authority, that you're paladin material before you're allowed to take levels in it. Is that really such a stretch?

I think both you and Kish have such a different conception of what a paladin should be that I don't see this argument getting anywhere. Different settings (and editions) do tend to treat the class very differently, you know.

I don't know that anyone "just randomly decides" to become a paladin. In-universe, it's usually assumed that each level of a class is taken after great forethought, effort and training. But then again, I don't see much of a difference between paladins as conceived of by some people and certain prestige classes (minus the mechanics and prerequisites, of course). The beauty of D&D is how much it can vary based on individual preference.

[Carry2]

If 'paladin' is a base class like any other, then Shojo (or anyone else) couldn't stop Miko from taking levels in it. Heck, she could just declare herself to be a paladin of the 12 Gods, or of the People of Azure City, or something. Start her own order to rival the Sapphire Guard, maybe. There'd be no way to stop her…
Veti, I don't disagree with this. I'm just pointing out that trying to integrate a literal and by-the-book interpretation of standard D&D rules with genuine in-world verisimilitude is doomed to failure. There are so many points where the two diverge that singling out just the Paladin class seems a little parochial.

I think she is insane, from the start. It's not so obvious at first, but the seed of paranoid delusion (the feeling that she's personally chosen, destined for something special, over and above any of her peers) is there from the start…
You may think as you please, but I don't think there is particularly compelling evidence for this at the time. Her 'chosen one' comment occurs in later strips, after plenty of other unhinging events, and even if this was a long-running belief of hers, it didn't seem to impact her day-to-day function. Lords know plenty of folks on this planet believe things I consider patently and demonstrably untrue, and I'm still not allowed to call them insane.

(I also have a vague recollection (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=258788&postcount=208) of the author saying that people tend to take the mattress tag too seriously. Because other characters are allowed to randomly overreact for the sake of humour, but not her.)

Of course it's entirely speculative, but it is possible that, had the SG been commanded by a paladin, they would have decided from the get-go that Miko's character flaws were incompatible with paladinhood.
*shrugs* It is conceivable, I just think it hinges on a number of assumptions which can't really be proven given available data. (Others have suggested that Shojo's decision to rule through manipulation and deceit was itself a significant contributor to Miko's decaying mental condition- so maybe a paladin would be less likely to recruit her, but also less likely to drive her nuts.) The fealty-to-man vs. chosen-by-god thing doesn't strike me as much different from the dilemma any cleric or paladin might face if their deity happened to tell them to do something different from their organisational superiors. You either assume that it won't come up, or that one takes precedence.


...At any rate, I think this is all wandering a little off-topic. Do OOTS paladins appear to do much auxiliary spellcasting? No. Are the D&D rules for paladins' auxiliary spellcasting largely redundant? Probably. Would a dedicated paladin prestige class make more sense from an in-world perspective? Possibly, depending on what you want, but then you should probably be playing a different RPG.

Finally, if more needs to be said on one of those- entirely valid and interesting- secondary topics, I would urge, cajole and implore folks to start a separate thread for 'em.

[MReav]

It does open the line of thought: maybe, if Shojo had been a paladin himself, Miko would never have got that invite. Because Shojo was chaotic, and didn't really understand the importance of duty, honour and obedience, he thought he could work around Miko's character flaws and take advantage of her good traits while just ignoring the - well, insanity. (From a chaotic point of view, there's not much difference between 'unquestioning obedience' and 'insanity' anyway...) But a paladin would have seen that difference, and known that it should have disqualified Miko from the get-go.

I think that's a bit condemnatory for a child, seeing as how that's when she was recruited. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html)

I personally think that Miko might have done better if Shojo didn't have to maintain his insanity cover, because as the most powerful member of the Sapphire Guard, she probably only answered to him, and with him having to pretend he was insane, he couldn't just take her aside and tell her "Miko, take it down a notch".

[137beth]

"if paladins of the Sapphire Guard were a prestige class Miko would totally have held Mr. Scruffy hostage to get Shojo to invite her to be one."
But...but Shojo hadn't started to fake senility by the time Miko became a paladin:smalltongue:

[Holy_Knight]

I think paladins should be in the same boat. You should have to demonstrate, to the satisfaction of a relevant authority, that you're paladin material before you're allowed to take levels in it. Is that really such a stretch?
I think you're conflating being a paladin with being part of a particular order of paladins. I agree that you would have to be invited to join a group like the Sapphire Guard, but becoming a paladin in general is described as answering a calling. It wouldn't make sense to say: "I felt a voice inside me like the running of a stream. It stirred within me a vision--of the sanctity and fragility of creation. My eyes were filled with light, my heart was replete with courage, and my soul began to burn with the sacred fire of justice. At once I knew that I would forever love righteousness, and embark on the path of honor. ...Now, where can I find some mortal being to grant me admittance to my holy destiny?"

[Tragak]

I think you're conflating being a paladin with being part of a particular order of paladins. I agree that you would have to be invited to join a group like the Sapphire Guard, but becoming a paladin in general is described as answering a calling. It wouldn't make sense to say: "I felt a voice inside me like the running of a stream. It stirred within me a vision--of the sanctity and fragility of creation. My eyes were filled with light, my heart was replete with courage, and my soul began to burn with the sacred fire of justice. At once I knew that I would forever love righteousness, and embark on the path of honor. ...Now, where can I find some mortal being to grant me admittance to my holy destiny?" Bingo. A Paladin serves the deities of righteousness and answer to their other servants in the mortal world. And even if she's not serving the church of one specific deity of good, then she's still not serving none of them, she's serving all of them.

[veti]

I think you're conflating being a paladin with being part of a particular order of paladins. I agree that you would have to be invited to join a group like the Sapphire Guard, but becoming a paladin in general is described as answering a calling. It wouldn't make sense to say: "I felt a voice inside me like the running of a stream. It stirred within me a vision--of the sanctity and fragility of creation. My eyes were filled with light, my heart was replete with courage, and my soul began to burn with the sacred fire of justice. At once I knew that I would forever love righteousness, and embark on the path of honor. ...Now, where can I find some mortal being to grant me admittance to my holy destiny?"

Well, I thought I'd said all I had to say here...

... but just for the record, I disagree. Literature is full of people going through exactly that process. Shaw describes Joan of Arc camping out on Robert de Baudricourt's lawn, impressing the heck out of his soldiers, for weeks before she finally wins an audience and gets to advance her career. Several of King Arthur's knights had to work hard to earn their position, and in each case they focused monomaniacally on winning the king's trust and respect until they got the job. Several of Charlemagne's paladins began their careers as knights fighting against him, but they didn't become paladins until they came over to his side and earned his trust.

Compared with these figures, I think the D&D paladin class is, frankly, cheap and tacky. Deciding to become a paladin should be like deciding to become a master craftsman, or a millionnaire, or a ship's captain; you can adopt it as a goal anytime you like, but it takes a buttload of work to achieve it.

[Carry2]

Literature is full of people going through exactly that process. Shaw describes Joan of Arc camping out on Robert de Baudricourt's lawn, impressing the heck out of his soldiers, for weeks before she finally wins an audience and gets to advance her career.
Yes, but that's the official, human-authority recognition of their paladin-ness, and maybe the armour and broadsword that traditionally go with it. It's not the internal state of being personally dedicated to a deity and capable of minor miracles, which describes Joan well before anyone in power noticed her.

Even if some kind of formal initiation and training was required, the D&D leveling system is riddled with holes in this respect, as a number of OOTS comics have themselves noted. How exactly do you gain levels in Barbarian if you're not actually born a hunter-gatherer or semi-nomadic tribesman? Why does killing monsters allow me to put points in unrelated Profession skills? How can one become a Sorceror, a class supposedly based on intrinsic talent traceable to draconic descent? Or a Wizard, a vocation that traditionally takes decades of study just to master the lowliest cantrip? Why do ageless elves start off with comparable stats, and no greater experience, than mortal adventurers? The list goes on. (Actually, I feel that most kinds of multiclassing largely defeat the purpose of a class system. But anyway.)


It's not that I don't think this a problem worth 'fixing', it's just that- from your intended design perspective- it's a flaw near the bottom of a long list of concerns with D&D as a system. If, on the other hand, you just want a system that lets you jump in and play as <fantasy archetype X> as soon as possible… then you should probably be playing Dungeon World. But allowing paladins out the gate is not a problem with D&D per se.

[MReav]

How can one become a Sorceror, a class supposedly based on intrinsic talent traceable to draconic descent?

The sorcerer thing is relatively easy to explain, since your bloodline awakens whatever magic you have later on in life. The rest, yeah...

[Wroth]

But..

We've seen a paladin use a spell.


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html

Cure Critical Wounds

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureCriticalWounds.htm

Which is weird as it's not a Paladin spell..Maybe he has ranks in bard (He was an emissary after all) or Cleric (Ranks in Diplomacy?)

[Kish]

Never thought I'd see anyone call Tsukiko a paladin. Even Redcloak never insulted her so severely.

(In other words, you might want to look more closely at that speech bubble.)

[Wroth]

Never thought I'd see anyone call Tsukiko a paladin. Even Redcloak never insulted her so severely.

(In other words, you might want to look more closely at that speech bubble.)

Whoops, my bad :smalleek:

I had assumed she was ordering him to do both, never noticed her hand casting the spell upon herself until I looked closely just now.

[Carry2]

The sorcerer thing is relatively easy to explain, since your bloodline awakens whatever magic you have later on in life. The rest, yeah...
Well, if you're going by precedents in the literature (Tehanu, Magician, Harry Potter, etc.), then sorcerous talents tend to manifest at an early age.

At any rate, there is precious little evidence in the strip that OOTS paladins specifically represent some kind of dedicated homebrew prestige class. Whether that would make sense or not.


I personally think that Miko might have done better if Shojo didn't have to maintain his insanity cover, because as the most powerful member of the Sapphire Guard, she probably only answered to him, and with him having to pretend he was insane, he couldn't just take her aside and tell her "Miko, take it down a notch".
What occurs to me is she didn't just go from being a novice paladin directly to second-in-command, though, so it's strange that her intermediate superiors never thought to correct her lack of basic tact.

Because the sad thing, going by her reaction to Soon, is that she actually responds very well to explicit corrections by superiors. (She's not quite as happy about following Shojo's directives, but as you and others have suggested (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277580), the whole senility schtick probably didn't help.)

[137beth]

I am fairly certain that joining a specific order in the OOTS world is not a requirement to become a paladin: See Serini (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), before the Sapphire Guard even existed.

[Holy_Knight]

Well, I thought I'd said all I had to say here...

... but just for the record, I disagree. Literature is full of people going through exactly that process. Shaw describes Joan of Arc camping out on Robert de Baudricourt's lawn, impressing the heck out of his soldiers, for weeks before she finally wins an audience and gets to advance her career. Several of King Arthur's knights had to work hard to earn their position, and in each case they focused monomaniacally on winning the king's trust and respect until they got the job. Several of Charlemagne's paladins began their careers as knights fighting against him, but they didn't become paladins until they came over to his side and earned his trust.
it.
As Carry2 pointed out, you're still talking about joining a human organization, not answering the call to become a paladin in the first place. Even in literary examples, the two seem to be distinct. For instance, the archetypical paladin is Galahad, who was clearly endowed with sacred power and a divine destiny before officially joining King Arthur's court. The best case you could make for having an authority "sign off" on him is the siege perilous--but even that was still divine sanction, because its mystical properties didn't come from Arthur or any other human being.



Compared with these figures, I think the D&D paladin class is, frankly, cheap and tacky. Deciding to become a paladin should be like deciding to become a master craftsman, or a millionnaire, or a ship's captain; you can adopt it as a goal anytime you like, but it takes a buttload of work to achieve
I don't particularly have a problem with the idea of the paladin not being something you start out in, and in older editions of D&D that is how it worked. But I don't think doing it the other way necessarily makes it tacky or cheap either. Think of a first-level paladin as someone who has heard the call, and just begun his journey upon that life path. It will require whole-hearted commitment, dedication, and perseverance to walk that path and achieve its ultimate potential. But in the meantime, the new paladin uses his limited understanding to take the first steps of that noble quest.

[Snails]

Earlier editions assumed that PCs were already seasoned professionals, in some fashion, at 1st level. 1st levelers were merely weaklings compared to what they would eventually become. Thus the archetypal 1st level wizard is already no longer young.

3e and later bent but did not break that idea.

As for veti's point, there is nothing wrong with the idea of starting to take Paladin class levels (or Paladin Prestige class levels) later in life. That was the likely road of Miko.

But hearing a call to a greatly destiny in one's youth is equally valid. It is no more cheesy to go Paladin at 1st level than it is cheesy letting those uneducated doofuses learn to cast spells without acquiring a couple levels of Expert beforehand. "Want to learn magic? Learn to sweep the floor properly first, you worthless whippersnapper! Now get to work before I clout you again."