Hack-and-slash-o-rama

[Joval]

I'm in this campaign, and after about six months, it's pretty apparent that it's mostly hack and slash gauntlet style. We finished our first mission that took us through four levels, and now our DM is shifting us ahead four years, and four more levels, because he has found some Brand name pre made campaigns that he is really into that are set to be around that level. Once we finished the campaign, I looked over it to see what we missed, and what our target numbers were, and I saw it was tweaked, if slightly, to be HacknSlash Heavy and Story Light (Which isn't particularly a people).

In this campaign we have nothing but Strikers (2 Rangers, a Rogue, an Avenger, an Assassin, and others), and one Leader (Cleric).

I figured, if it's gonna be a hack-and-slash-fest, I may as well get into it...So I made a Bugbear Avenger. I was thinking about Multiclassing into Ranger for the Hunters Quarry, or possibly even Assassin for the Shrouds, and maybe pick up a feat to amp up the d6 to d8 or something. I'm not sure. Been playing around with the Character Builder, and haven't satisfied myself with these four levels of playing around.

As it stands, I have four retrains, and simple tactics. I use an Oversized Maul, so having a 2d8 Weapon with a Higher Chance to hit bc of OOE is a pretty wicked combo. I also focus on keeping myself with plenty of Temp HP to fuel my Silver Shadow, but that's it as far as my tactics go. There really isn't much in the way of teamwork, either, so I'm not interested in buffing other players.

What do you have for me, Playground?

[Tegu8788]

You want to round out the party some, still do tons of damage, and are able to adjust your character a bit more?

Bugbear Fighter/Ranger. Bugbear gives you oversized weapons. Tempest fighter gives you a +1 to off-hand weapon attacks, Two-Weapon Defense, and +2 to damage with off-hand weapons when in light armor, and with high Dex it's easy to do.

Two Blade Warrior (MC Ranger), let's you use one handed weapons as if they are off-hand weapons, triggering all the above bonuses with every weapon. And, even with the smallest of investments you'll qualify easily.

Then you can burn a feat to get yourself a huge superior weapon, like a Waraxe or a Bastard Sword, and hit everything near you very hard.


But to answer your actual question, I don't know enough without using my CB to answer you. Mine is on the fritz, otherwise I'd be more useful.

[Joval]

Well, I'm already an Avenger, and there is no changing that, unless I want to start with a scratch character, and I want to make good use of the Oversized weapon ability for Bugbears.

I don't really want to round out the team. This is a thorough hack and slash, and there isn't much in the way of teamwork, save for conning NPCs outside of combat, which is about twice a year at our current rate of things.

[Epinephrine]

Boost charging?

Avengers are wicked accurate, so you don't need to worry about that; take Power Attack for the bonus damage. Pick up Mordenkrad as a superior weapon, and get an Avalanche Weapon (adds 1W to melee basic charges). you're now swinging a 2d8(brutal 1) weapon and hitting for 4d8(brutal1) on charges, probably with a +3/6/9 bonus from your power attack. If you were using Bludgeon Expertise before, retrain it for Two Handed Weapon Expertise for the +1/2/3 to charge damage. Pick up items to boost damage (Horned Helmet, Iron Armbands, for example) and feats (Weapon Focus?).

I have no idea what level you are, but assuming late heroic with solid starting stats (18 Wisdom) your charge should be hitting for 4d8(b1)+2(enh)+1(feat)+1(charge)+3(PA)+2(item)+5(W is) or ~34 average damage, with a decent chance to crit thanks to your double roll.

[Joval]

That sounds Great.

[Arkhosia]

A avenger/ranger could work well anyways, especially if you hybrid them-two blade fighting style as your hybrid talent, leather proficiciency (you'll need it as you won't have armor of faith), and spend feats on two weapon____.
Suggested beginning ability stats(bugbear bonuses included):
Con:15
Str:14
Dex:13
Int:14
Cha:12
Wis:13
Used an array of 15,14,13,12,12,11

[Tegu8788]

Yeah, no, that won't work that well. The Striker features to not stack, the stats don't really stack, the defenses are horrible, and while melee Rangers want two weapons, and Avenger wants one big beatstick.

[Alejandro]

Be a warlord, grant all those strikers more and more and more basic attacks, and make your GM rip his or her hair out.

[Tegu8788]

To clarify, the reason I suggested Fighter was so that you could attack during your own turn, and attack constantly off-turn. Set things up so your mark is violated, and you can constantly deal heavy damage.


But if Avenger is locked in, have fun with the above suggestions.

[Arkhosia]

Yeah, no, that won't work that well. The Striker features to not stack, the stats don't really stack, the defenses are horrible, and while melee Rangers want two weapons, and Avenger wants one big beatstick.

Why exactly do the weapon styles not work? I see no reason why he couldRenewing strike a foe with one hand and then dire wolverine strike another wit both hands.
Also, how do the stats not work (assuming you mean ability scores)? An avenger is intelligence, wisdom, and dexterity, while a ranger needs strength, wisdom, and dexterity.
The defense lack is easily fixed with leather proficiency in conjunction with two blade's bonus 5 hp via hybrid talent, although admittedly it's not as good as the default two.
Besides, the "One Big Beatstick" could be fixed by great swords being dual-wielded, as the oversized racial bonus enables this (might be incorrect: may have misinterpreted the racial feature).
Of course, that would be hugely expensive at 1st level: 50 or 60 spent on weapons!

[VeliciaL]

Dire Wolverine Strike uses Strength to attack, while Avenger powers use Wisdom. Therein lies the problem with a hybrid Avenger|Ranger; it uses two separate attack stats, neither of which contribute to AC, and neither class gets access to heavy armor.

Remember, you only get to boost two stats to their maximum over the course of your character's career. If you're not in heavy armor, this really needs to be your main attack stat, and the main AC-boosting stat that works for your character.

[Tegu8788]

No, it really flat out doesn't work. You can use a larger version of a weapon, but that just means one die up, not getting to use two-handed weapons with on hand.

Avengers need a very high Wis, with a solid Dex. A melee Ranger needs a very high Str, with some Wis useful. The stats you suggested to absolutely nothing useful, creating a character that can't hit anything, and can be hit by everything.

There is no reason it couldn't be done, what I said was it would be a perfect example of why so many people hate hybrids. For the combo you mentioned, the character will need to have two weapons and an implement to keep boosting, and that's a lot of gold to spend, not to mention the feats you didn't mention to correct for normal math.

And the Striker features don't stack, and that is why functional Striker/Striker hybrids are almost nonexistent.

If one must do it, I'd use Armor of Faith for certain, because the AC would be horrible. I'd get Str and Wis as high as possible, then throw everything left into Dex, probably dumping Cha. Focus on Marauder Ranger powers and minor action attacks, using Running Attack to help out, and anything that adds Wis to damage being strong.


But it's still a bad idea.


Edit: And I'm not certain what you mean by 50 out of 60 spent on weapons, 4E doesn't have 60 anything that you can spend at level one, except perhaps gold, which you should get 100 of at level 1.

[Arkhosia]

No, it really flat out doesn't work. You can use a larger version of a weapon, but that just means one die up, not getting to use two-handed weapons with on hand.

Avengers need a very high Wis, with a solid Dex. A melee Ranger needs a very high Str, with some Wis useful. The stats you suggested to absolutely nothing useful, creating a character that can't hit anything, and can be hit by everything.

There is no reason it couldn't be done, what I said was it would be a perfect example of why so many people hate hybrids. For the combo you mentioned, the character will need to have two weapons and an implement to keep boosting, and that's a lot of gold to spend, not to mention the feats you didn't mention to correct for normal math.

And the Striker features don't stack, and that is why functional Striker/Striker hybrids are almost nonexistent.

If one must do it, I'd use Armor of Faith for certain, because the AC would be horrible. I'd get Str and Wis as high as possible, then throw everything left into Dex, probably dumping Cha. Focus on Marauder Ranger powers and minor action attacks, using Running Attack to help out, and anything that adds Wis to damage being strong.


But it's still a bad idea.


Edit: And I'm not certain what you mean by 50 out of 60 spent on weapons, 4E doesn't have 60 anything that you can spend at level one, except perhaps gold, which you should get 100 of at level 1.

I have a habit of trying to balance stats for my characters, which is why the stats I provided were bad. I thought that what you meant by horrible stats was the required stats not working well for some reason.
The 50 out of 60 was a typo: I meant 50 or 60 out of 100, don't know how I made the mistype. My Oversized confusion (pun intended :smallbiggrin:) caused me to use great swords as the weapons, and couldn't remember if a great sword cost 25 or 30 hp.

[Tegu8788]

The Stats don't stack though, that is my point. Perhaps, if you used a Bow Ranger and mixed it with an implement using Avenger using a Holy Bow symbol you could do well, but that basically removes the entire point of having the Avenger in the mix. 4E doesn't do well with well rounded characters, but a well rounded team.

A Warden and Ranger mix well, because both use Str to attack and benefit from a high Wis. A Warlock and Bard mix well because they could use Cha and like Int. A Cleric and Wizard can do well, balancing Wis and Int.

Your suggested character would be in melee with terrible AC even with leathers on, and away from any ally if you are using Avenger powers.


Hybrids are the only way to screw up a build in 4E by and large. If you are interested in learning how to make hybrids, check out the links in my signature and/or PM me, and I'd be glad to walk you through the basics. Or start another thread and I'll gladly discuss things there. But as for now, let's return the thread to making an awesome Bugbear Avenger.

[Arkhosia]

The Stats don't stack though, that is my point. Perhaps, if you used a Bow Ranger and mixed it with an implement using Avenger using a Holy Bow symbol you could do well, but that basically removes the entire point of having the Avenger in the mix. 4E doesn't do well with well rounded characters, but a well rounded team.

A Warden and Ranger mix well, because both use Str to attack and benefit from a high Wis. A Warlock and Bard mix well because they could use Cha and like Int. A Cleric and Wizard can do well, balancing Wis and Int.

Your suggested character would be in melee with terrible AC even with leathers on, and away from any ally if you are using Avenger powers.


Hybrids are the only way to screw up a build in 4E by and large. If you are interested in learning how to make hybrids, check out the links in my signature and/or PM me, and I'd be glad to walk you through the basics. Or start another thread and I'll gladly discuss things there. But as for now, let's return the thread to making an awesome Bugbear Avenger.

A bit novice at hybrid building, sorry.
Back to building: a good daily power for max damage would be Aspect of might (level 1 ph2). 3w+wisdom mod damage, +2 speed and damage rolls for melee until encounter ends.
Oath of consuming light is good too (level 5 ph2): 2d10+wisdom mod damage, divine attacks to target take 1d6 radiant damage, save ends, then 1d4 damage, save ends.
Also, halo of fire (2w+ wisdom damage, until next turn any enemies adjacent to you take 5 damage) is a pretty good level 3 encounter power.
Only book I have with avenger stuff is PH2, so they may not be the best.

[allonym]

There's roughly three ways to make an Avenger who concentrates on damage.
The first, as Epinephrine states, is to concentrate on charging. It's boring, since your turns will all be pretty much identical, but simple and powerful. There's lots of feats and items that boost charging, and it helps make up for one of the deficiencies of the Avenger, which is a lack of raw damage.
The second is critfishing, often through multiattacking. The basics of critfishing can be used by any Avenger who wishes to partake in it - simply put, you're more likely to crit than most other people, because you roll more dice. However, some builds concentrate on this, using feats, items and paragon paths to increase critical chance and the effect of it. The most effective builds for this tend to be half-elf, using Twin Strike taken from the Ranger, to get as many attacks, and therefore chances to crit, as possible. This can also be a bit dull, as your turns will basically boil down to twin striking, but critting is always fun and you'll sometimes have some explosive turns.
The third is to make a generic Avenger, and trick yourself out as much as you can. Avengers get some nice tricks, but can't really compete for raw numbers with a ranger or barbarian. You get consistency, and lots of it. You want to get the biggest weapon you can - the Mordenkrad suggestion is a good one, as I believe it averages out as the biggest damage per [w] when Large.
Look for encounter powers which are minor actions, or other 'off-actions' - immediate reactions and interrupts. Fury's Advance and Relentless Stride at level 3 are the obvious recommendations - pick probably Fury's Advance at level 3, and whichever you didn't take at level 7. Otherwise, look at your Bond and your playstyle for power choices, and consider powerswapping depending on your multiclass.

With regards the advice on daily powers, you won't find anything particularly stellar for Avengers, and your daily powers won't have much more punch than other strikers' encounter powers for the timebeing. That being said, Aspect of Might is a good call, though Strength of Many gives it a run for its money. At level 5, Menacing Presence or whichever of the level 1 powers you didn't want. There are some traps to avoid, particularly Dawn Fire Sigil and Oath of Consuming Light, both of which do very little for Avengers but look rather nice on first glance.

[Joval]

A bit novice at hybrid building, sorry.
Back to building: a good daily power for max damage would be Aspect of might (level 1 ph2). 3w+wisdom mod damage, +2 speed and damage rolls for melee until encounter ends.
Oath of consuming light is good too (level 5 ph2): 2d10+wisdom mod damage, divine attacks to target take 1d6 radiant damage, save ends, then 1d4 damage, save ends.
Also, halo of fire (2w+ wisdom damage, until next turn any enemies adjacent to you take 5 damage) is a pretty good level 3 encounter power.
Only book I have with avenger stuff is PH2, so they may not be the best.

Aye. That was pretty much my working list for him.

[Arkhosia]

Aye. That was pretty much my working list for him.

Nice to know that I can add to my small list of advice-giving attempts that I didn't completely screwup in some way. :smallbiggrin: