Making spells permanent with Wish

[Clistenes]

Would you people allow the Charm Monster to be made permanent (to avoid the risk of the subject making its save) using a Wish or Miracle?

Or would you allow it to be done using a less powerful (and less expensive) spell like Lesser Wish, Small Miracle or even Permanency itself (I think Bestow Curse would be appropiate too).

Which other spells would you allow to be made permanent that way?

Which are your thoughts? Thank you.

[Feytalist]

Even if charm monster could be permanencied, it doesn't change its duration to "instantaneous". Which means it can still be dispelled, and what's more, the save to break the spell could still be triggered, like, all the time.

So permanency, miracle, wish and the like would have no real effect.

Much better to cast it every so often, and keep making bluff and/or diplomacy checks on your thrall to keep it happy and in line.

[ArcturusV]

Well, trying to make Charm Person permanent, so they would never get a saving throw is just the sort of wish that is going to go very monkey's paw on you. Least if I'm DMing. Charm Person is very limited in nature. What you're talking about is basically trying to use Mindrape without the "EVIL" tag or access to that spell. That's what you're trying to accomplish. A level 9 spell, which isn't a safe wish.

[Grinner]

Or just take levels in Thrallherd. Or was it Mindbender...?

Edit: Don't the Cyst spells let you work a permanent domination as well? That's only a single feat away.

[Feytalist]

Or just take levels in Thrallherd. Or was it Mindbender...?

I think both allow you to have a permanently dominated thrall, actually. And allows you to have a couple other charmed peons, but those allow saves again.

[Krobar]

Well, trying to make Charm Person permanent, so they would never get a saving throw is just the sort of wish that is going to go very monkey's paw on you. Least if I'm DMing. Charm Person is very limited in nature. What you're talking about is basically trying to use Mindrape without the "EVIL" tag or access to that spell. That's what you're trying to accomplish. A level 9 spell, which isn't a safe wish.

I don't think Charm Person can be used to totally wipe the victim's memory and replace those memories with memories of the caster's choosing, change the victim's alignment if desired, etc.

At most all he's wishing for is to know a version of the Charm Person spell that is either 'instantaneous' or has a duration of 'permanent'. Not at all as powerful as Mindrape. Definitely not the equivalent of a 9th level spell. Charm Person already has a duration of 1 hour per level, and can be cast over and over at the cost of one first level spell slot. Making it permanent only frees up a couple first level spell slots per day. And he's blowing 5,000 experience points to do so. Hardly game breaking.

[Feytalist]

Charm monster, on the other hand, is a 4th level spell, with a duration of day/level.

[Drachasor]

Charm Monster? So is there some reason why you can't just make friends with this creature/person/thing normally?

[Karnith]

Edit: Don't the Cyst spells let you work a permanent domination as well? That's only a single feat away.
They do, and if you could get access to the Domination domain (say, through the Dracolyte PrC), Monstrous Thrall exists as well.

What you're talking about is basically trying to use Mindrape without the "EVIL" tag or access to that spell.
What he is trying to do is use the spell Programmed Amnesia to make a friend, in other words.

[Yogibear41]

My dm allows all sorts of things to be used with wish.

In the campaign im playing in currently one character has a permanent true strike, one wished for basically a modified chosen of mystra template, and another wished for his +5 LA to be removed.

Now the catch was we are all low level and none of us can cast wish, so they just so happened to make near impossible to complete deals with a devil in exchange for having their wishes granted. They have a year in game time to complete them, or they drop dead and their souls get sucked strait to a bad place. If they happen to die for any reason, even after they complete their trials there souls get sucked to a bad place, and they can never be ressurected. At least not be conventional means. (time passes by rather quickly in game so a year is not as long as you think) As of now it is around late february in game, and the tasks must be completed before July 4th in game, I suppose you could say July 4th would be my independence day from these heathens :smallbiggrin:

Fortunanetly for the heathens we have plane hopped to a plane that has 20 days for every 1 day that passes on our plane. Only problem is that it seems to be strait out of Jurassic park lol.

[Clistenes]

Let me explain what I meant:

I don't want to make the spell Instantaneous (even if that would be very useful), or remove the need for Charisma Checks to make the subject do things for you, just make it Permanent.

For example, a creature with a good Will save, like an Advanced Efrit or a powerful Dragon rolls an awful Will save against your spell, you roll a good Caster Check, beat its Spell Resistance, and it gets enchanted.

The creature is your friend know, and offers to let you build your Sanctum in its magically protected, hidden and shielded cave, or to use its Wish spell-like ability to provide you with better equipment and transport you from plane to plane. Nothing that demands much from the creature, but certainly something that they wouldn't do for an enemy, only for a beloved friend.

There are a very good chances that, if you try to refresh the spell, you will fail, which will look suscipious to the creature ("Why were you trying to cast an Enchantment on me?!"), and that you won't be powerful enough to kill it once the spell ends.

So making Charm Monster permanent would be a good way to keep a very useful ally for a long time. And by the time somebody else dispels the effect maybe years in the future, you will probably be powerful enough to kill the critter.

I know that there are other ways to maximize the chances of getting every recasting of Charm Monster to work every time, but, if you don't have those options at the moment and you have a Ring of Three Wishes at hand, do you think it would be all right to use one of the Wishes that way?

[TuggyNE]

I know that there are other ways to maximize the chances of getting every recasting of Charm Monster to work every time, but, if you don't have those options at the moment and you have a Ring of Three Wishes at hand, do you think it would be all right to use one of the Wishes that way?

You can always try. But since it's not on the safe list, there's no guarantee it'll work, or work properly.

[Feytalist]

I think the best answer would be... maaaaybe. Ask your DM.

Thing is, even if you manage to make it permanent, if you ever ask anything of it that would go against its nature, it gets another save anyway. The permanency does nothing for that. So ask your new best dragon buddy for a share of its treasure? Boom, new save. If you manage to stay away from that, though, I guess it could work.


Slight tangent: I've always wondered if you can't let your charmed buddy intentionally fail its save. "Oh hai, I need to cast this totally innocuous enchantment on you. Won't you lower your SR and fail the Will check for me?" One bluff check later, and maybe some shenanigans to mask the exact spell (what's that skill trick that lets one spell look like another, same-level spell?) and voila, auto-success charm monster. Should work, right?

[Malroth]

conceal spellcasting skill trick and bard Fascinate means never having to explain why you cast mind controlling spells again

[Inuzuka]

I don't want to derail the thread, but given its title...

I've been wondering if you can use lesser wish to make buffs permanent that aren't on the Permanency spell's table. I was mainly thinking of True seeing.

I think the only buff it shouldn't work on is Greater arcane sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSightGreater.htm) simply because it says you can't.

[Grinner]

I've been wondering if you can use lesser wish to make buffs permanent that aren't on the Permanency spell's table. I was mainly thinking of True seeing.

You can, but you need to research it, preferably with the DM's permission.

[Clistenes]

I think the best answer would be... maaaaybe. Ask your DM.

Thing is, even if you manage to make it permanent, if you ever ask anything of it that would go against its nature, it gets another save anyway. The permanency does nothing for that. So ask your new best dragon buddy for a share of its treasure? Boom, new save. If you manage to stay away from that, though, I guess it could work.

Charm Monster ends when you do something the target could perceive as an attack, without a Will Save. And the creature doesn't get a new Will save if you ask it to do something against its nature/something it wouldn't do even for a friend, it just refuses to do it unless you win an opposed Charisma check.


Slight tangent: I've always wondered if you can't let your charmed buddy intentionally fail its save. "Oh hai, I need to cast this totally innocuous enchantment on you. Won't you lower your SR and fail the Will check for me?" One bluff check later, and maybe some shenanigans to mask the exact spell (what's that skill trick that lets one spell look like another, same-level spell?) and voila, auto-success charm monster. Should work, right?

It depends on the creature's Spellcraft Skill. If it can't discern which spell you are casting, you can easily trick it into believing that you are casting a Buff to make it stronger. But, if it's able to recognize it as a Charm spell, your Bluff roll will have to beat a hell of a DC.

[Drachasor]

I'm having trouble putting this scenario together where you have WISH, yet Charm Monster is pretty effective and you want their lair and can't make your own that's just as good or better and then this sentence lasts longer than it has any right to.

[Jack_Simth]

Edit: Don't the Cyst spells let you work a permanent domination as well? That's only a single feat away.
Yep. Necrotic Domination.

I know that there are other ways to maximize the chances of getting every recasting of Charm Monster to work every time, but, if you don't have those options at the moment and you have a Ring of Three Wishes at hand, do you think it would be all right to use one of the Wishes that way?
I think the best answer would be... maaaaybe. Ask your DM.

You can, but you need to research it, preferably with the DM's permission.The specific line from Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) that applies here is found in the PHB, and reads:

The DM may allow other selected spells to be made permanent. Researching this possible application of a spell costs as much time and money as independently researching the selected spell (see the Dungeon Master’s Guide for details). If the DM has already determined that the application is not possible, the research automatically fails. Note that you never learn what is possible except by the success or failure of your research.
So you need to spend five thousand GP and five weeks of in-game time to get the answer to whether or not it can be made permanent, as per spell research.

However, if it is possible, it is decidedly on the safe list of Wish (or even Limited Wish), as you're duplicating a 5th level Universal school Sor/Wiz spell.

So what it boils down to is: How much are you willing to risk?



Slight tangent: I've always wondered if you can't let your charmed buddy intentionally fail its save. "Oh hai, I need to cast this totally innocuous enchantment on you. Won't you lower your SR and fail the Will check for me?" One bluff check later, and maybe some shenanigans to mask the exact spell (what's that skill trick that lets one spell look like another, same-level spell?) and voila, auto-success charm monster. Should work, right?
You don't bluff a dragon. They have many sense motive ranks, and spellcraft to boot.

[Feytalist]

Charm Monster ends when you do something the target could perceive as an attack, without a Will Save. And the creature doesn't get a new Will save if you ask it to do something against its nature/something it wouldn't do even for a friend, it just refuses to do it unless you win an opposed Charisma check.

...I could have sworn it was a Will save to snap out of the charm. And I read the spell description like 3 times. Huh.

Anyway, the same applies to the Charisma check. Permanency doesn't get rid of that.


It depends on the creature's Spellcraft Skill. If it can't discern which spell you are casting, you can easily trick it into believing that you are casting a Buff to make it stronger. But, if it's able to recognize it as a Charm spell, your Bluff roll will have to beat a hell of a DC.

Which is where the Conceal Spellcasting trick comes in. Although there's apparently a use for Slight of Hand which does the same thing. Just need Slight of Hand ranks, I guess.



You don't bluff a dragon. They have many sense motive ranks, and spellcraft to boot.

Well.. you could bluff a dragon :smallbiggrin: But on any lesser creature it should theoretically work, I think.