[3.5] Most item-dependant class?

[Yael]

Aiming for the knowledge, which is the most item-dependant class that exists in D&D 3.5?
[From Core to Completes, including DMs and external campaign books (i.e. Eberron, WoW, and else).]

Every 3.5 content is open, so... What do you think? I would go for the monk~~

[ArcturusV]

I'd probably put my money down on something like Expert. Least a monk has some abilities that might give it some utility.

But of standard Player Classes... Hmm... I'd actually go for standard Wizard. :smallwink: A wizard with absolutely no possessions is usually a miserable, useless pile. Yes, I know there are shiny special stuff not to make that the case. Even Spell Mastery (Not that I ever see anyone take it).

I mean if you're talking completely sans items. No items what so ever? I think oddly the tier system would look almost the opposite. Sure, monks generally suck. But in a world without any items what so ever? They're the ones who aren't going to go and suffer from Filth Fever, have a way to teleport out of traps, etc. The Paladin has the only real healing (Not the cleric, no holy symbol, no Cure X wounds or the like). The Fighter looks like an impressive disabler. And you're looking at the Cleric going "... okay... you are less effective than a Warrior". Turn undead? Needs a symbol. Magic? Almost all cleric spells require a symbol. Armor? Don't have any. Low HP, low Skill Points. Wizard? No book, no component pouch, etc. Hope they took one of those shiny features to know how to still be a wizard.

Course, if what you mean is just "Magic item dependent" then it's a wholly different beast.

[eggynack]

The artificer is basically "Items: the Class", so that's gotta be way way up there. Can artificers even do anything without items? I've heard that they can still do a tiny amount with VoP, but without items of any kind I think they're screwed. After that, it's necessary to make assessments on the basis of the monk range of classes. Monks are very much item dependent, but they are able to punch stuff to some extent, and they get that AC boost, so they're probably not the absolute worst. They get a bad rap on the VoP front, because a lot of people immediately imagine an amazing VoP monk when VoP is brought up, but you're not quite at the bottom of the barrel. For instance, the CW samurai is basically a marginally more powerful warrior, so they're a lot like a monk, except with all of those little monk things that give them an approximation of armor, and an approximation of a weapon. Thus, I'd say that they're the most item-dependent class in this category. Finally, if you include NPC classes, some of those are obviously super dependent on items. Commoners, warriors, and aristocrats get hit worse than monks and CW samurai, though adepts, magewrights, and experts are generally fine. That's my list as it currently stands.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Fighters and Rogues would be my take. A Fighter without items is basically a Commoner with more HD and a few feats.
Rogues can do some non-combat stuff without items but are helpless otherwise.
Monks suck with or without items so it doesn't matter much :smalltongue:

Casters are fine without items as long as they are not Wizards.
Clerics can summon a holy symbol with a spell, Druids are fine anyway, Sorcerers don't need spellbooks.
You just have to spend a feat on Eschew Materials or you won't be able to cast a lot of spells with fluff components.
Psionics should be fine too.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Most classes can function to some degree without items. The only base class that just can't function well (there are ways of building it so it doesn't require a spellbook but it sucks) without items is the wizard.

On a special note the winterhaunt of Iborighu prestige class from frostburn actually require you to create a specific magic item to qualify for it.

[TheSunKing]

Monk sucks without items? They fight with fists, their primary abilities require no items.

The tiers wouldn't flip. Psions are still psions, its just arcane and divine spells that suffer.

[Gavinfoxx]

Monk sucks without items?

Yup, that's right. They NEED items more than most classes.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851

Read that, and figure out what monks USEFULLY do with that.

and the tier list does mostly flip. Misunderstood what people were saying! Higher power and versatility tends to mean you can do more with less resources.

[eggynack]

Monk sucks without items? They fight with fists, their primary abilities require no items.

The tiers wouldn't flip. Psions are still psions, its just arcane and divine spells that suffer.
Monks absolutely do suck without items, because their abilities are generally pretty terrible. It's like how commoners suck without items, even though all of their abilities work just fine without them. I don't think that wizards suck without items, because they're reasonably capable of working without a spell book.

[137beth]

The artificer is basically "Items: the Class", so that's gotta be way way up there. Can artificers even do anything without items? I've heard that they can still do a tiny amount with VoP, but without items of any kind I think they're screwed. After that, it's necessary to make assessments on the basis of the monk range of classes. Monks are very much item dependent, but they are able to punch stuff to some extent, and they get that AC boost, so they're probably not the absolute worst. They get a bad rap on the VoP front, because a lot of people immediately imagine an amazing VoP monk when VoP is brought up, but you're not quite at the bottom of the barrel. For instance, the CW samurai is basically a marginally more powerful warrior, so they're a lot like a monk, except with all of those little monk things that give them an approximation of armor, and an approximation of a weapon. Thus, I'd say that they're the most item-dependent class in this category. Finally, if you include NPC classes, some of those are obviously super dependent on items. Commoners, warriors, and aristocrats get hit worse than monks and CW samurai, though adepts, magewrights, and experts are generally fine. That's my list as it currently stands.
Partly, it depends on how we define item dependence. Artificers are possibly the least dependent on finding good items in loot, as they can craft almost everything themselves.
For most item dependent overall...I'm gonna say commoner. Followed by CW samurai.

[eggynack]

Partly, it depends on how we define item dependence. Artificers are possibly the least dependent on finding good items in loot, as they can craft almost everything themselves.

I think we might need some standardized definition for item dependency, or at least a categorization of different definitions. When I mentioned artificer, I was mostly thinking of item dependency in the VoP sense. That's actually the way a lot of people have been working with it, and as you've implied, I'm not sure it's the best way. We should probably let all of the characters get away with the basics, which means a weapon and armor for a fighter, a spellbook and component pouch for a wizard, and everything in existence for an artificer. We'd basically be measuring how these characters would do in a world that has zero magic marts. Under those circumstances, I think that CW samurai and monks fare the worst, out of the PC classes. For the most part, itemless tiers look a lot like regular tiers, though there are some outliers, like totemists. It might still be valid to analyze the hyper-VoP scenario, in which case my artificer claim is likely accurate, but it's a scenario that's not really reflective of true game states.

[Gavinfoxx]

They flip in the sense that

"Low Tier = Most item dependent" and "High Tier = least item dependent, generally."

I think that means they don't flip??

Sorry, must clarify.

[Mishkov]

Depends on what you mean, artificer is a good choice if you're looking at the class without items.

However, if you're talking about a class that becomes exponentially better with items than without, spellthief is actually up there. Without items like wands and scrolls, it's a much weaker chassis. In general the UMD classes like warlock suffer too.

[Gavinfoxx]

Do you also want the least item dependent classes?

[georgie_leech]

My vote is going to Truenamer: without items to shore up his core mechanic, the Truenamer gets relatively worse as he levels up. Everyone else at least improves in *some* way without items.

[Gemini476]

My vote is going to Truenamer: without items to shore up his core mechanic, the Truenamer gets relatively worse as he levels up. Everyone else at least improves in *some* way without items.

For reference, a Truenamer without a Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue and Masterwork Tool of Truespeak misses out on +13 to truespeak checks. Against a CR20 opponent (like, say, your party) that's a DC 55 check that you just lost a huge chunk of modifiers to.
Oh, and don't even try Quicken Utterance without items. +20 DC.

[ArcturusV]

Ah, so yeah, not Psions. But yeah, if it's just "Lack of magic gear" it doesn't change too much. Monks still suck. CW Samurai sucks. OA Samurai isn't too bad off, in the world without magic items the ability to non-magically make magic items seems like a good deal, which might put them up a notch or two.

[Gavinfoxx]

Easy Bake Wizards are fine in zero wealth games. Also Clerics can take an Eberron feat to not need holy symbols.

Here's the recipe for one of my favorite ways of playing D&D, an Easy Bake Wizard. Put the Sorcerer to shame (well, at anything except metamagic-heavy blasting...and the sorcerer only spells... sorcerer has a ton of ACF's for that, which you don't get...)!

Easy Bake No "Worries" Wizard

Ingredients:
1 Gray Elf (SRD, MM1, or see alternatives)
1 Wizard Class (PHB, SRD)
1 Elf Wizard Racial Substitution Level (Races of the Wild)
1 Eidetic Spellcaster Alternative Class Feature (Dragon Magazine #357 -- the core of the build!)
1 Spontaneous Divination Alternative Class Feature (Complete Champion, be sure to check out the errata online!)
1 Collegiate Wizard Feat (Complete Arcane)
1 Aerenal Arcanist feat (Player's Guide to Eberron, optional)
1 Eschew Materials feat (PHB, SRD)
1 Domain Wizard variant, Transmutation or Conjuration domain (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional)
Flaws, to taste (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional, but necessary if you want all those feats by level 3)
Extra bits, optional, see later instructions!

Mix in bowl, and be sure to top with any one of these feats:
Acidic Splatter, Winter's Blast, or Fiery Burst (all from Complete Mage)

Notes: if it doesn't turn out right when playing it in a zero wealth game, you picked bad spells. Be sure to look at the various wizard handbooks for how to pick solid, powerful, versatile spells. And it is very thematic that you can do stuff like leave a slot or two open to spend 15 minutes preparing the correct spell you need in it, or take Uncanny Forethought or Alacritous Cogitation, or Nexus Method, consider taking those later. And you automatically just 'get' spells like a sorcerer... no need for scrolls or anything. This Wizard idea relies on exactly zero found scrolls and zero need for items to scribe things into his spellbook, and with Eschew Materials and the right spells chosen, doesn't even need a Spell Component Pouch (just don't take any spells with focuses or components more than 5 gp)! Also, some people might think that this trading out the ability to specialize three times, but that isn't what is going on. Due to differing language between the various options, that isn't what's happening. Some of the stuff says that 'if you don't specialize, you can do this', some of the stuff says 'by removing the ability to specialize entirely, you gain this ability.' Order in which the abilities are taken matters.

Further, some more possible ingredients to take include:

-Alacritous Cogitation feat at level 6 (Complete Mage)
-Another Great option for race is a Lesser Fey'ri (Players Guide to Faerun and Races of Faerun) with LA Bought off (the LA buyoff option is in the SRD and Unearthed Arcana; choose the powers to get the minimum LA for that race). This lets you make use of that Alter Self at will; read the handbook on the uses of Alter Self, it's fantastic. Consider Forgotten Realms's feat 'Magic in the Blood' from player's guide to Faerun, if you are a Lesser Fey'ri!
-Get the Nexus Method feat from Dragon Magazine #319! This lets you spontaneously cast the summon monster line, and apparently adds all the spells to your spellbook! If you do this, you probably want the Transmutation Domain rather than the Conjuration Domain, to maximize spells known.
-Another option is Lesser Celadrin. You combine the rules in Player's Guide to Faerun and the rules in Dragon Magazine #350 to get Lesser Celadrin.
-Also, Fire Elf (UA/SRD) works well too.

-If you ask for houserules, consider these two:
-Permission to house rule that you can take Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil) at level 9, with the Alacritous Cogitation (Complete Mage) and the Eidetic Spellacster ACF taking place of the Spell Mastery prerequisite, without access to the 'spell mastery' capability from that feat
-Hopefully permission to house rule for the character to count Autohypnosis (XPH, SRD) as a class skill, to describe the character's eidetic memory being useful for things other than spellcasting (assuming the GM uses Autohypnosis in his game!)

Some numbers:

Basic Wizard: Start with 3+Int mod L1 spells, +2 each level as baseline
Elf Generalist Wizard: +1 wizard spell at start, +1 each level beyond baseline
Collegiate Wizard: Instead of 3+int and +2 each level, baseline is set at 6+int and +4 each level
Aerenal Arcanist: +1 each level beyond baseline, including L1 if you take it then
Domain Wizard (Transmutation or Conjuration): One specific extra spell of each spell levels; +9 spells over career (cantrip is already known)
Nexus Method: Apparently automatically gets you the entire Summon Monster line!

So at level one, with a 20 int (cause Grey Elf or whatever, or 21 if you start at middle aged...) you know:
13 level one spells, plus mage armor or expeditious retreat automatically
At level 2, you gain six new L1 spells
At level 3, you gain 6 spells of up to spell level 2, and levitate or web, depending...

Essentially, you end up with a more versatile Sorcerer, who has access to a TON of spells, and can always get the right spell for the job... even with no gear whatsoever. And no Vow of Poverty needed to be useful without wealth!

Finally, if you want to gain access to even MORE spells, the Mage of the Arcane Order prestige class can be useful.

[Sylthia]

Do we mean magic items, or just items in general? Wizards need very little beyond their book and pouch, but without feats/alternate features are basically commoners without them. Having no magic items generally hurts martial characters much more than casters.

Although one could argue that a spell book and component pouch count as magic items.

[Yael]

The Warforged Artificer can infuse himself, the wizard has ACFs that substitute the Spellbook, I've seen this builds in action and tend to be nice at roleplay. Now, CW Samurai and OA Samurai would stay the same because of the Ancestral Daisho's magic properties, let's say that you take out the ''magial'' stuff of the katana, what's left? A Fighter without a 1st level bonus feat... Now, Monk, every monk would be pathetic in any case.

From this on, which class is the less item-dependant class?

[Squirrel_Dude]

I'd probably put my money down on something like Expert. Least a monk has some abilities that might give it some utility.

But of standard Player Classes... Hmm... I'd actually go for standard Wizard. :smallwink: A wizard with absolutely no possessions is usually a miserable, useless pile. Yes, I know there are shiny special stuff not to make that the case. Even Spell Mastery (Not that I ever see anyone take it).

I mean if you're talking completely sans items. No items what so ever? I think oddly the tier system would look almost the opposite. Sure, monks generally suck. But in a world without any items what so ever? They're the ones who aren't going to go and suffer from Filth Fever, have a way to teleport out of traps, etc. The Paladin has the only real healing (Not the cleric, no holy symbol, no Cure X wounds or the like). The Fighter looks like an impressive disabler. And you're looking at the Cleric going "... okay... you are less effective than a Warrior". Turn undead? Needs a symbol. Magic? Almost all cleric spells require a symbol. Armor? Don't have any. Low HP, low Skill Points. Wizard? No book, no component pouch, etc. Hope they took one of those shiny features to know how to still be a wizard.

Course, if what you mean is just "Magic item dependent" then it's a wholly different beast.I might put the Druid or Barbarian ahead of the monk in terms of ability to go without items. Unless we're saying that some berries found in the woods count as an item, the Druid is probably find with wildshape and all.

The Barbarian can still pounce things and try to trip things, but just with natural attacks. He'd be doing less damage, but he could take superior unarmed strike and twf to try and get around that. It would be crappy, but he'd probably still hurt things.

There's also probably a way for some martial class to get natural attacks that I'm unaware of.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Fighters and Rogues would be my take. A Fighter without items is basically a Commoner with more HD and a few feats.
Rogues can do some non-combat stuff without items but are helpless otherwise.
Monks suck with or without items so it doesn't matter much :smalltongue:

Actually, one of my players once played a "monk" with a (Superior Unarmed Strike) Rogue, relying greatly on SA and sneaking (and items). He was actually pretty effective in an anti-magic zone, so I'd say that he's not helpless.


I might put the Druid or Barbarian ahead of the monk in terms of ability to go without items. Unless we're saying that some berries found in the woods count as an item, the Druid is probably fine with wildshape and all.

The Barbarian can still pounce things and try to trip things, but just with natural attacks. He'd be doing less damage, but he could take superior unarmed strike and twf to try and get around that. It would be crappy, but he'd probably still hurt things.

There's also probably a way for some martial class to get natural attacks that I'm unaware of.

Totemist (MoI) to the Rescue!

Actually, the Incarnate and Totemist don't really suffer nearly as much from a lack of items as most other classes do.

[Chronos]

Even without any feats or alternate class features, any cleric at all can cast the 0th-level spell Summon Holy Symbol.

And rogues do generally need some mundane items, but they can do just fine in an AMF. To call it just "some non-combat stuff" sells the class short, since that non-combat stuff is their reason for existence.

[Rubik]

Although one could argue that a spell book and component pouch count as magic items.Nope. Spellbooks and component pouches don't count as magic items, so wizards are safe on that count. Cast Dispel Magic or even Disjunction and nothing whatsoever will happen.

Though spellbooks are granted as class features, so they shouldn't be taken away even in a "no items at all" game.

The component pouch would be fair game then, however.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Nope. Spellbooks and component pouches don't count as magic items, so wizards are safe on that count. Cast Dispel Magic or even Disjunction and nothing whatsoever will happen.

Though spellbooks are granted as class features, so they shouldn't be taken away even in a "no items at all" game.

The component pouch would be fair game then, however.

weird. The pouch containing endless herds worth of fleece is completely mundane and can be created and stocked by a commoner who owns an equipment shop. (gnomish shadowcraft mage reference here)

[eggynack]

We could always create a basic standard definition for this challenge, and give everyone a certain amount of GP to spend. I was thinking somewhere between 50 and 200. I'd figure that the maximum possible amount would be 270 GP, which is the average starting gold on an aristocrat. The minimum possible for this thing would probably be 12.5, which is the starting gold of a monk (because they needed a crappy starting gold on top of everything else). This set up seems pretty workable, because it keeps everything static and objective, and characters aren't going to have nearly enough GP to take advantage of a magic mart, if one even exists. Presumably, methods that increase your GP past this amount would cause an overdeity to punch you in the face, and steal your excess.

[Rubik]

weird. The pouch containing endless herds worth of fleece is completely mundane and can be created and stocked by a commoner who owns an equipment shop. (gnomish shadowcraft mage reference here)Could you update my quote, please? I edited it before you posted.

[NeoPhoenix0]

We could always create a basic standard definition for this challenge, and give everyone a certain amount of GP to spend. I was thinking somewhere between 50 and 200. I'd figure that the maximum possible amount would be 270 GP, which is the average starting gold on an aristocrat. The minimum possible for this thing would probably be 12.5, which is the starting gold of a monk (because they needed a crappy starting gold on top of everything else). This set up seems pretty workable, because it keeps everything static and objective, and characters aren't going to have nearly enough GP to take advantage of a magic mart, if one even exists. Presumably, methods that increase your GP past this amount would cause an overdeity to punch you in the face, and steal your excess.

Wait a minute. The OA samurai gets two masterwork weapons as class feature at level one and still gets an average of 150 gp. They seem pretty self sufficient on the item front to me Just don't sell the swords so the overdeity doesn't come and take your gold.


Could you update my quote, please? I edited it before you posted.

done.

[eggynack]

Wait a minute. The OA samurai gets two masterwork weapons as class feature at level one and still gets an average of 150 gp. They seem pretty self sufficient on the item front to me Just don't sell the swords so the overdeity doesn't come and take your gold.

This is a true thing, for both the CW and OA samurai. However, they still face the general issue of melee classes which is that they don't do much without items. Samurai have one of the highest starting gold quantities in the game, but it doesn't get them nearly far enough. Still, it might be enough to get them at or above monk range, because they can afford a two handed weapon and armor. That probably gives them some sort of edge. It probably doesn't give them any sort of edge against anyone else though.

[NeoPhoenix0]

This is a true thing, for both the CW and OA samurai. However, they still face the general issue of melee classes which is that they don't do much without items. Samurai have one of the highest starting gold quantities in the game, but it doesn't get them nearly far enough. Still, it might be enough to get them at or above monk range, because they can afford a two handed weapon and armor. That probably gives them some sort of edge. It probably doesn't give them any sort of edge against anyone else though.

Actually the OA samurai always starts with the two MW weapons while only many CW samurai start with them. A small semantic difference that means the DM is well within his rights to say a CW samurai doesn't get them. that's how much a CW samurai sucks.

[eggynack]

Actually the OA samurai always starts with the two MW weapons while only many CW samurai start with them. A small semantic difference that means the DM is well within his rights to say a CW samurai doesn't get them. that's how much a CW samurai sucks.
Huh. I guess you're right on that one. That'd be especially true in a challenge like this one. It always feels like I'm continually relearning how much CW samurai suck. It's like a fractal of suck. No matter how closely you look, the class still sucks.

[ericgrau]

In general the mundanes are much more equipment dependent than the magicals, because they need items for their magic. Spells aren't less powerful without some sort of staff, you only have slightly fewer of them. For them an item is only a backup. Or they aren't proficient/good with it, not even at double/triple cost like the mundanes doing the reverse. Mundanes OTOH use gear for nearly all their abilities, and to provide magical abilities that they otherwise do not have at all.

That's why I always thought the fighter 20 vs. wizard 10 thread was a bit of a joke. Because equipment is an integral part of system balance that 3.5 is built around and 3.5 needs it, not wants it. You can't simply remove it and say it doesn't count. And so a fighter 20 could outcast a wizard 10 if he wanted, besides other abilities. Or else the whole thing is only an inapplicable thought experiment.

Out of the mundanes monks are generally less item dependents than the others. ToB might be an exception, but it is basically magic without calling it magic. You'd think everyone on these boards was beaten up by a monk as a child or something.

The question may be worth better defining too. Wizards and artificers may be the worst if no items are allowed. But if severely limited items are available, wizard is great and artificer may be one of the best. And commoner 30, fallen caster 30, or similar is the most item dependent, but I suspect that's not allowed.

[Darth Stabber]

Depends how broadly you define "items". If you are referring specifically to magic items then monk and artificer are likely taking the prize (not counting stupid crap like wbl equipped commoners, or complete fail classes like divine mind), and druid is the least dependant, and VoP becomes the best feat ever. If we're talking buck naked on a featureless plane, thpn eschew components becomes the most powerful feat, followed by VoP, and casters lacking eschew are screwed (and psions become king). Add some ACFs to the picture and it gets friendlier.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Huh. I guess you're right on that one. That'd be especially true in a challenge like this one. It always feels like I'm continually relearning how much CW samurai suck. It's like a fractal of suck. No matter how closely you look, the class still sucks.

You know what the answer is. Stop looking at the fractal before one of two things happen.

1) You go completely insane.

2) You become completely mesmerized by it.

[Rubik]

That's why I always thought the fighter 20 vs. wizard 10 thread was a bit of a joke. Because equipment is an integral part of system balance that 3.5 is built around and 3.5 needs it, not wants it. You can't simply remove it and say it doesn't count. And so a fighter 20 could outcast a wizard 10 if he wanted, besides other abilities. Or else the whole thing is only an inapplicable thought experiment.I do believe that wizards get more WBL equivalent in their spells alone than a fighter 20 does, since 1/day items of all of those spells that wizards get (swappable every day, no less) are quite expensive.


Out of the mundanes monks are generally less item dependents than the others. ToB might be an exception, but it is basically magic without calling it magic. You'd think everyone on these boards was beaten up by a monk as a child or something.Monks are less dependent on mundane items by the simple rubric that they can't use them, and their class features just don't work in conjunction with them (and are, in fact, disabled by them). Magic items, however, are needed by monks far more than the vast majority of other classes.

[georgie_leech]

Monks are less dependent on mundane items by the simple rubric that they can't use them, and their class features just don't work in conjunction with them (and are, in fact, disabled by them). Magic items, however, are needed by monks far more than the vast majority of other classes.

Aside from armour-boosting items, which items does a monk need more than, say, a fighter does?

[Rubik]

Aside from armour-boosting items, which items does a monk need more than, say, a fighter does?Their function is to hit things in a fight. Which needs more to perform that function, someone with full BAB and a higher Str score (because he didn't have to invest in Str, Dex, Con, Int, AND Wis) or someone with medium BAB and a much lower Str score (because he did), as well as less damage because he doesn't use a two-hander or decent ranged weapons?

[ranagrande]

I think the Legacy Champion is the most item-dependent class.

[georgie_leech]

Their function is to hit things in a fight. Which needs more to perform that function, someone with full BAB and a higher Str score (because he didn't have to invest in Str, Dex, Con, Int, AND Wis) or someone with medium BAB and a much lower Str score (because he did), as well as less damage because he doesn't use a two-hander or decent ranged weapons?

Given that anyone hitting things in Melee is going to be picking up STR boosts and other assorted attack boosters, I don't see it. Monks are definitely item dependent, but they don't strike me as *more* item dependent than a Fighter, or a Paladin, or other low tier classes. My understanding is that Monks generally don't work well because of abilities that don't synergise well, not because they desperately need specific items to do their job. Unlike my Truenamer example.

[Rubik]

Given that anyone hitting things in Melee is going to be picking up STR boosts and other assorted attack boosters, I don't see it. Monks are definitely item dependent, but they don't strike me as *more* item dependent than a Fighter, or a Paladin, or other low tier classes. My understanding is that Monks generally don't work well because of abilities that don't synergise well, not because they desperately need specific items to do their job. Unlike my Truenamer example.Fighters have better stats, which means you need to work harder just to catch up. You'll need to find a way to stay on par with a fighter, which means you'll need to make up for stats which are more highly needed. The surplus can be used for other items, such as flight.

Which costs more, +2 items of Str and Con, a +2 cloak of resistance, a +2 armor and a +2 weapon, or +4 items of Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, +4 bracers of armor, and a +5 necklace of natural attacks?

[ericgrau]

I do believe that wizards get more WBL equivalent in their spells alone than a fighter 20 does, since 1/day items of all of those spells that wizards get (swappable every day, no less) are quite expensive.
Level 5 spells 1/day are 16,200 gp each. Single use level 5 spells, for versatility, are 2,250 gp each but you'd probably go with lower level utility. Level 20 WBL is 760,000 gp. You wouldn't try to mimic precisely what the wizard has though. You'd take a handful of higher than 5th level spells and ignore most of the rest, except for a little utility. And it could actually be as cheap as 1/3rd of all that because at level 20 you can make UMD checks cross-class. It's pretty easy to wield far more power.

[Rubik]

Level 5 spells 1/day are 16,200 gp each. Single use level 5 spells, for versatility, are 2,250 gp each but you'd probably go with lower level utility. Level 20 WBL is 760,000 gp. You wouldn't try to mimic precisely what the wizard has though. You'd take a handful of higher than 5th level spells and ignore most of the rest, except for a little utility. It could actually be as cheap as 1/3rd of all that because at level 20 you can make UMD checks cross-class.I wouldn't discount low level wizard spells, if I were you. You can cause rather considerable distress to epic-level golems with Grease, after all. Not to mention clever use of things like Pyrotechnics.

That, and fighters don't get UMD, so it doesn't count for this purpose. Class X fallacy and whatnot.

[ericgrau]

You can't cast 57 spells in a single fight, or even 4 fights. It is about 10 billion miles from optimal to spend money on them all. You cast a few 8th and maybe 9th level spells and stomp. Plus a small amount of dirt cheap lower level for utility; you don't actually blow combat rounds on it usually. And expendables for the rarely used utility to make it even cheaper than that.

That's just for the sake of argument, to beat someone at their own game with nothing but gear. Practically speaking level 20 anything is using their spare change (not their main budget) to do magical things as powerful as 6th level spells or anything below. For noncasters this adds tremendous versatility to find, reach and hit tricky foes. For casters casting 9s it's just kinda nice as a minor backup.

[Flickerdart]

there are ways of building it so it doesn't require a spellbook but it sucks
Eidetic Wizard - trade your familiar for not having to have a book. "It sucks"? Hardly.

Also, you can tattoo spells on yourself for only twice the cost.

[georgie_leech]

Fighters have better stats, which means you need to work harder just to catch up. You'll need to find a way to stay on par with a fighter, which means you'll need to make up for stats which are more highly needed. The surplus can be used for other items, such as flight.

Which costs more, +2 items of Str and Con, a +2 cloak of resistance, a +2 armor and a +2 weapon, or +4 items of Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, +4 bracers of armor, and a +5 necklace of natural attacks?

So a Monk with VoP needs no items then? :smalltongue:

To be clear, I'm talking about the ability to handle encounters, not whether he needs more to equal what a Fighter does. If the size of numbers were all that mattered for items, VoP would be considerably better than it is. A Monk needs Flight just as much as a Paladin does, needs some means of attacking incorporeal foes just as much as a Barbarian does, needs some means of blocking SoD's just as much as a Fighter does.

[Rubik]

So a Monk with VoP needs no items then? :smalltongue:

To be clear, I'm talking about the ability to handle encounters, not whether he needs more to equal what a Fighter does. If the size of numbers were all that mattered for items, VoP would be considerably better than it is. A Monk needs Flight just as much as a Paladin does, needs some means of attacking incorporeal foes just as much as a Barbarian does, needs some means of blocking SoD's just as much as a Fighter does.Note that the basics must come first. If you can't keep up and are useless and/or die, all the extras in the world won't help. The rest is what you need for things like flight, and monks just don't have enough to go around after shoring up all their weaknesses.

[ArcturusV]

I'd say Monks need more items than fighters only in so far as between more feats, less MAD, and more equipment useable the Fighter doesn't necessarily need as many items.

I mean a fighter wants Stat Boosting Items of: Strength, Con, Wis possibly for saves, Cha maybe if he wanted to become some great Leadership type... Int to get away from 2 Skill Points/Level. But the latter three are hardly necessary. Dex is most likely going to be capped to a point where you don't need stat boosts by your armor (And honestly I always found it better to be spending money on other bonuses than trying to reduce the Max Dex Bonus penalties to my armor). So flat, needs 2, others are icing.

Monk needs: Strength, Dex, Con, Wisdom. Possibly because they have more skill points, Charisma for some of their skillmonkeying as they actually have a decent smattering of skills to be a "Face". But really it requires 4 stat boosts, so you're doubling your item needs.

Similarly Monks just need more items to do things that Fighters tend to do right out of the box. If they want to raise AC so everything doesn't tag them easily, and hard, a monk is going to spend a lot more wealth on AC boosting items than a Fighter is going to. Sure that Plate Armor might only be a +8 bonus by itself. But better than a +0 bonus. That and you're actually likely to find a +5 Plate Mail of Fortification, etc, in a loot horde than you are to find some random Monk Robes with all the defensive perks you could want. Same sort of reason why you're better off with a Composite Longbow as a Fighter, than Shuriken as a Monk. What adventures have Magic Arrows/Bows as loot you might get? Pretty much all of them. What adventures have magic shuriken you might get as loot? Almost none of them.

Since Monk class features both A) Want you to take more levels of Monk/Monk PrCs, and B) Don't work well together, you often have to spend wealth to overcome the inherent flaws. Like finding ways to get Swift Action Teleports so you can actually use Flurry of Misses in battle, as opposed to a Fighter taking a one off dip that doesn't really hurt his build to pick up Pounce. Or to use only Fighter features, could pick up something like Mounted Archery to make full ranged attack patterns at reduced penalties, actually able to use your class features (Bonus Feats, Full BAB) without needing magic mojo or being a sitting duck. Not optimal. But there was an idea in there. Generally being that Monks need assistance to make their stuff work fully, and others might want it, but they can at least try to be effective without it (and not losing TOO much).

[137beth]

Eidetic Wizard - trade your familiar for not having to have a book. "It sucks"? Hardly.

Also, you can tattoo spells on yourself for only twice the cost.

In a game with more magic items, yes it sucks, because it rules out Improved Familiar+UMD+wands-->extra spell each round.

In a almost-no-item game, then you are correct, though:smalltongue:

[Gavinfoxx]

Eidetic Wizard - trade your familiar for not having to have a book. "It sucks"? Hardly.

Also, you can tattoo spells on yourself for only twice the cost.

Also. check out my particular build for eidetic wizard, which I posted earlier in this thread.

[Flickerdart]

In a game with more magic items, yes it sucks, because it rules out Improved Familiar+UMD+wands-->extra spell each round.

In a almost-no-item game, then you are correct, though:smalltongue:
If by extra spell each round you mean "wasting money and making your familiar more of a target to get a low-level low-DC effect" then you are correct. If you really want to do that though you can always just take Obtain Familiar.

[Threadnaught]

Out of the mundanes monks are generally less item dependents than the others. ToB might be an exception, but it is basically magic without calling it magic. You'd think everyone on these boards was beaten up by a monk as a child or something.

I... I think I love you man.

That's the most beautiful thing about Monks I've ever seen on this site.


What happens when you break a Fighter's weapon? They're unarmed and unless they're specialized in Unarmed combat (in which case, why carry a weapon?) they're likely to be beaten in a direct confrontation with a Monk or Barbarian.

What happens when a Barbarian gets kited by a Monk until their Rage runs out? Monk slaughters the Barbarian... At least the Barbarian can still outrun the Fighter at higher levels.

What can the Barbarian and Fighter do outside of Combat using just their Class Abilities, that a Monk cannot? The Monk can move faster than the other two, can teleport, slide down walls, heal themselves, go ethereal, is immune to all poisons and non magical disease.
Barbarians and Fighters don't get any of that.

[Rubik]

What happens if a monk is fighting a dragon and can't fly?

Nothing. Nothing at all. At least a fighter could use a bow and arrows.

Like I said, monks are mundane item independent, but are extremely magic item dependent.

[Threadnaught]

What happens if a monk is fighting a dragon and can't fly?

Nothing. Nothing at all. At least a fighter could use a bow and arrows.

Like I said, monks are mundane item independent, but are extremely magic item dependent.

Okay, I'm going to ignore the first two lines, but leave them there so people can see your "point".

All those Monk Class features I mentioned, Slowfall, Immunity to Poison and non magical Disease, Fast Movement (more than the Barbarian), Dimension Door, Cure Light Wounds and Tongues.

You're saying a Fighter has all this at level 1?


Sure a Monk doesn't get all that right out of the box, but as they level up, they begin to access certain effects that can be gained from Magic Items. Sure, they're generally more effective from Magic Items, but I'd like you to show me a decent Fighter build that can replicate the Monk's abilities, without using Magic Items.


Edit: I'm now expecting Unarmed Swordsage, or Magic Items to make an appearance in your build. :smallamused:

[Rubik]

Okay, I'm going to ignore the first two lines, but leave them there so people can see your "point".

All those Monk Class features I mentioned, Slowfall, Immunity to Poison and non magical Disease, Fast Movement (more than the Barbarian), Dimension Door, Cure Light Wounds and Tongues.

You're saying a Fighter has all this at level 1?No. I never said any of that. I don't know where you got the idea. And if a monk can't do it at level 1, a fighter probably doesn't need it either.

But it's much cheaper for a fighter to buy the monk's abilities than it is to buy the fighter's abilities. Those extra stat bonuses needed for monks to catch up to a fighter, as well as bonuses to hit, and AC of regular armor, are MUCH more expensive, leaving monks with much less money to do anything with. And fighters don't NEED to do what a monk does, since most of the monk's abilities are extremely niche or quite useless. Immunity to poison? Most poisons aren't even threats by the time monks get immunity to them. Why would anyone worry about them?


Sure a Monk doesn't get all that right out of the box, but as they level up, they begin to access certain effects that can be gained from Magic Items. Sure, they're generally more effective from Magic Items, but I'd like you to show me a decent Fighter build that can replicate the Monk's abilities, without using Magic Items.

Edit: I'm now expecting Unarmed Swordsage, or Magic Items to make an appearance in your build. :smallamused:What build? What are you talking about?

[Threadnaught]

fighters don't NEED to do what a monk does, since most of the monk's abilities are extremely niche or quite useless.

The useful things granted by the Monk Class that the Fighter totally doesn't need, because Fighters totally never need anything that a Monk gets.

Wholeness of Body, which allows them to heal a number of HP equal to double their Monk level once per day. This allows a Monk to heal three times what an equal level Fighter can heal every day. Enough to be better prepared for any future conflict.

Abundant Step, aka Dimension Door... Pointless? This is an effect that appears in the list of necessary Magic Items on this very site. Extradimensional Travel,

Tongue of the Sun and Moon, aka Tongues. Because maybe you've got a better place for those Skill Points than learning all the Languages?

Empty Body, aka Etherealness. Which grants invisibility, immunity to damage and partial flight. Useless?


What build? What are you talking about?

Build me a Fighter, no Magic Items. Get those or better please.

I can with the Monk, drop Strength leaving me with three stats to focus on.

[eggynack]

The useful things granted by the Monk Class that the Fighter totally doesn't need, because Fighters totally never need anything that a Monk gets.

Wholeness of Body, which allows them to heal a number of HP equal to double their Monk level once per day. This allows a Monk to heal three times what an equal level Fighter can heal every day. Enough to be better prepared for any future conflict.

Abundant Step, aka Dimension Door... Pointless? This is an effect that appears in the list of necessary Magic Items on this very site. Extradimensional Travel,

Tongue of the Sun and Moon, aka Tongues. Because maybe you've got a better place for those Skill Points than learning all the Languages?

Empty Body, aka Etherealness. Which grants invisibility, immunity to damage and partial flight. Useless?
That list of stuff there isn't very good. I mean it's nice. Monks get a whole pile of stuff that's nice. Slow fall is nice, and flurry is nice, and even quivering palm is nice. None of it is good though. I'd rather have fighter feats than that pile of random stuff any day of the week. The goal isn't for the fighter to perfectly mimic the monk, because why the hell would he? The goal is for the fighter to just be effective on his own terms, which is a thing which he can do without items. Also, why would you dump strength? Unless you're putting together a weird Tippy archery build, I think that strength is a rather necessary component of a monk. How do you hit, otherwise?

Edit: Also, you appear to be neglecting the level of these things. Empty body would be a pretty good ability, except you get it at level 19, and you only get it for rounds/level. That is completely useless.

[The Trickster]

In the Monk vs. Fighter argument, I would say the Monk would be better off, just because a fighter without a weapon is pretty much stuck in suck-mode. There are exceptions, of course, like a grappler or a unarmed specialist fighter. I remember there being a thread somewhere in which someone built a unarmed fighter that was a higher damage dealer than a monk, although I cannot remember where it is. (IIRC, it was also a better tripper and grappler, too.)

But, is being a unarmed fighter with no equipment better than a monk in the same predicament? Is doing slightly higher damage better then a bunch of class features (even if they are mediocre)? I would say no.

But, what Rubik said is true;


But it's much cheaper for a fighter to buy the monk's abilities than it is to buy the fighter's abilities. Those extra stat bonuses needed for monks to catch up to a fighter, as well as bonuses to hit, and AC of regular armor, are MUCH more expensive, leaving monks with much less money to do anything with. And fighters don't NEED to do what a monk does, since most of the monk's abilities are extremely niche or quite useless.

Yes, a fighter could become "monk-like" and get magic items to replicate the monk abilities, but why would they want to? Why get slow fall items when you can get an item that allows you to fly? Also, if a monk buys the same items that the fighter buys, he may not have the funds to buy the other items he would need to be more useful (such as +str, +dex, +wis items, etc).

Back to the original post, as most have already said, the most item dependent class depends on what an "item" is. If by item you mean any item at all, then the wizard gets my vote. No spellbook/spell pouch, no spells. (Unless you use the non-spellbook variant). If by "items" you mean magic, then either a monk or a fighter, depending on the builds being used.

Edit: Partly swordsage'd! And my grammer sucks too.

[Maginomicon]

(Not the cleric, no holy symbol, no Cure X wounds or the like). The Fighter looks like an impressive disabler. And you're looking at the Cleric going "... okay... you are less effective than a Warrior". Turn undead? Needs a symbol. Magic? Almost all cleric spells require a symbol. Armor? Don't have any. Low HP, low Skill Points. Wizard? No book, no component pouch, etc. Hope they took one of those shiny features to know how to still be a wizard.There's a "V,S" spell called "Summon Holy Symbol" that allows the cleric to remain useful. There's also a "Summon Component" spell that's just "S" and a swift action, so wizards/sorcerers/bards are back on the table.

There's also a wizard ACF called "Eidetic Spellcaster" that lets them simply store their spellbook in their head.

[Wings of Peace]

(there are ways of building it so it doesn't require a spellbook but it sucks)

How does the Eidetic acf suck? It's essentially free if you didn't want your familiar and if for some reason it matters that much you can spend a feat instead to pickup Skincaster which also eliminates the need for a spellbook.

[TuggyNE]

Wholeness of Body, which allows them to heal a number of HP equal to double their Monk level once per day. This allows a Monk to heal three times what an equal level Fighter can heal every day. Enough to be better prepared for any future conflict.

Neither Monks nor Fighters heal enough in-class to do anything useful; at level 20, a Monk can heal a total of about 2/3 a CR 20 dragon's full attack, most of a balor's full attack, about 2/3 of a pit fiend's full attack, or about half of the tarrasque's full attack. One single full attack, once per day, against enemies you might be fighting 3-5 times in a day. Next!


Abundant Step, aka Dimension Door... Pointless? This is an effect that appears in the list of necessary Magic Items on this very site.

So it does. Once per day, though? And with the annoying restriction on actions until your next turn and a standard action activation? Arguably about as good as anklets of translocation (longer range, slower activation, half as often, extra restriction), which are only a few thousand gp. Next!


Tongue of the Sun and Moon, aka Tongues. Because maybe you've got a better place for those Skill Points than learning all the Languages?

Yes, like anything else in the world: Spot, Listen, Search, Balance, UMD, Tumble, etc. "Lets you stop worrying about the lowest-priority skills" is a real strong selling point. Next!


Empty Body, aka Etherealness. Which grants invisibility, immunity to damage and partial flight. Useless?

Very late, limited, and notably less than useful for combat (ethereal creatures cannot attack material, but the reverse is not true, so you need to drop out to do anything), travel/scouting (you can't get very far at half speed and rounds/level), or escape (at level 19, there's a fair number of things that can attack you in ethereal, and considerably more that can see you). Next!

Oh wait, we're done. Oops.


Build me a Fighter, no Magic Items. Get those or better please.

I can with the Monk, drop Strength leaving me with three stats to focus on.

With the exception of teleportation, none of those are worth worrying about, and Fighters are nearly as item-dependent as Monks, so a "magic-item-free Fighter" isn't really gonna happen.

[ArcturusV]

Well, except for the Magic Itemless Fighter could say, use their class ranks in Ride, and the bonus feats in Mounted Combat, etc, and get a decent charger (With flight) that would probably be infinitely more useful in the average adventuring day than a Monk would be. So your level 20 monk can teleport a short distance once per day. Run fast. Stun guys. Kill a guy once a week, talk to anyone, and immune to stuff you should pass the saves for anyway.

The Fighter can be (Not even going for anything too out there and special) riding a bronze dragon around, flinging AoE doom from his mount and spamming Arrowy Death/Charging Death.

I'm not really sure which one is better, as I'm sure someone would throw up examples where say, the monk having "Scout" ranks and fast speed, saves and SR might make for a better skirmisher. But the Fighter would make for a better main battle warrior like that.

I'd think.

Unless we counted something like Mounts as magic items. But if I was going Fighter 20, and knew I'd never have any magic gear, I'd probably go spend my coin on getting something like a Dragon Egg from some Planar Metropolis/Large City, use my 2 Skill Points per level for Ride and Handle Animal, and raise myself up a Dragony Mount. Or maybe a Unicorn. Or something nifty like that. Which would at least use my class features/skill ranks as a somewhat logical progression. Not the best. But not exactly helpless.

Course the monk could do a similar thing. But a monk has even less that they could add to such a build. And would have to sink almost all their feats into making it decent, where as the fighter might have room to spare for some Archery if they wanted, or combat lockdown, etc.

[Rubik]

By the way, no-item fighters CAN get better than a monk with feats alone. Remember that Martial Study and Martial Stance are fighter bonus feats.

1/day Dimension Door? Try 1/combat (or 1/minute) short-range teleportation as an Ex ability that doesn't restrict your actions. You can get it as a standard, a move, or a swift.

A high-level monk can heal a few hp per day, but even a low-level fighter can use a stance to heal up much, MUCH more than that. In fact, they can heal with every single attack they make. And they can heal themselves and others around them, with very few limitations.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon is near useless. It can be replaced with a few 900 gp magic items from MIC. That shows just how valuable the ability is. Big fat hairy deal.

Empty Body? Two feats spent on Shape Soulmeld and Open Lesser Chakra can get you the phase cloak, allowing you to go ethereal when you move an unlimited number of times per day.

So a handful of feats means a fighter can approximate, match, or far exceed the monk in all of those. *Yaaawn* And it still has lots of feats left to do other things.

[Wings of Peace]

By the way, no-item fighters CAN get better than a monk with feats alone. Remember that Martial Study and Martial Stance are fighter bonus feats.

The key thing to remember here is that this means the Fighter for the most part will have -more- tricks than the monk but not strictly speaking -better- tricks (ignoring long chains of feats) since the monk could take the same feats using his regular progression.

[Rubik]

The key thing to remember here is that this means the Fighter for the most part will have -more- tricks than the monk but not strictly speaking -better- tricks (ignoring long chains of feats) since the monk could take the same feats using his regular progression.I was just showing that a fighter could meet the monk in what it can do, and cheaply, at that.

Fighters are less MAD, have better "class features," and can buy most of the monk's worthwhile features with feats or really cheap items.

There're reasons why monks are lower tier.

[eggynack]

The key thing to remember here is that this means the Fighter for the most part will have -more- tricks than the monk but not strictly speaking -better- tricks (ignoring long chains of feats) since the monk could take the same feats using his regular progression.
I think that the point is that fighters can approximate monk stuff with very little effort. Monks have much less ability to approximate fighter stuff. I don't even think that most fighters actually will try to monk out, because most monk stuff is terrible, but they can. We should really only test the bonus feats against the monk's abilities, while ignoring regular progression, because fighters get regular feat progression too.

[Kuulvheysoon]

By the way, no-item fighters CAN get better than a monk with feats alone. Remember that Martial Study and Martial Stance are fighter bonus feats.

1/day Dimension Door? Try 1/combat (or 1/minute) short-range teleportation as an Ex ability that doesn't restrict your actions. You can get it as a standard, a move, or a swift.

Actually, they can't get it as a swift with only Fighter levels - they'd need an IL of 13... which would be 26 Fighter levels. Other than that, all excellent points.

[Rubik]

Actually, they can't get it as a swift with only Fighter levels - they'd need an IL of 13... which would be 26 Fighter levels. Other than that, all excellent points.I suppose the swift action Sudden Leap will just have to do, then. It's extremely similar, if not exact.

[Threadnaught]

Fighters are less MAD, have better "class features," and can buy most of the monk's worthwhile features with feats or really cheap items.

There're reasons why monks are lower tier.

Zhentarium Fighter is Tier 4, other versions are Tier 5, same as Monk. The Class Features you are thinking of are ACFs.

I'll concede everything but Tongue of the Sun and Moon which you replace in a discussion about not using Magic Items... With a Magic Item.


My only point was that the Monk had a few tricks that it could use instead of being completely helpless in a world without Magic Items.

When people began using a Fighter dependant on Magic Items as the first counter, it only helped make Monks look better.

[eggynack]

Zhentarium Fighter is Tier 4, other versions are Tier 5, same as Monk. The Class Features you are thinking of are ACFs.

I'll concede everything but Tongue of the Sun and Moon which you replace in a discussion about not using Magic Items... With a Magic Item.


My only point was that the Monk had a few tricks that it could use instead of being completely helpless in a world without Magic Items.

When people began using a Fighter dependant on Magic Items as the first counter, it only helped make Monks look better.
Monks and fighters are in the same tier, but they're at opposite ends of that tier. Fighters are at the very edge of tier four, with the addition of a single intimidation trick being enough to get them over the edge. They're at the very height of that terrible level of power. Monks, however, are at the very bottom of tier five. Out of the box, there's not all that much to recommend them over CW samurai. They probably have an advantage, but a small push downwards is all it would take to get them to six. It's not a full tier difference, but it almost is. If the only thing that the monk has over the fighter is the ability to speak all the languages at level 17, I think that this debate is already over. Seriously, that's just a ridiculously high level, and a 900 GP expenditure doesn't make fighters item dependent.

The fact of the matter is, fighters don't want or need to emulate monks, because monks are terrible. The fact that you can actually price a lot of their class features doesn't tell you how other classes will do in an itemless world, but it tells you about general item dependency. Take wholeness of body, for example. It starts healing more than a healing belt at level fourteen, and by that point you can just buy a second healing belt, and the monk needs to wait till epic levels to beat that. What this means is that you could replace their seventh level ability with, "Add 750 GP to your wealth by level. At 14th, increase this amount to 1,500 GP," and it'd be a far better ability. That's just sad. You can do the same with quite a few of their abilities. For example, slow fall can converted into 2,200 GP for a ring of feather fall, and once again, he'd be far better off. What this actually tells us is that these abilities literally aren't worth much. Meanwhile, it's far more difficult to approximate fighter feats. It's a misdirection to ask how a fighter can pretend to be a monk. The real question is, how can a monk pretend to be a fighter?

[ranagrande]

The real question is, how can a monk pretend to be a fighter?
Diplomacy. Diplomacy can break the game, and Monks get it as a class skill. Focus on that, and the Monk can not only pretend to be but can actually outperform the Zhentarim Soldier, the tier 4 Fighter.

Feel free to focus on diplomacy above all else. People here often talk about how monks suck in combat, so you won't really be missing out on anything. When you do run into an encounter that cannot be diplomanced, all the nifty movement tricks and speed bonus should allow you to successfully run away.

[137beth]

Diplomacy. Diplomacy can break the game, and Monks get it as a class skill. Focus on that, and the Monk can not only pretend to be but can actually outperform the Zhentarim Soldier, the tier 4 Fighter.

Feel free to focus on diplomacy above all else. People here often talk about how monks suck in combat, so you won't really be missing out on anything. When you do run into an encounter that cannot be diplomanced, all the nifty movement tricks and speed bonus should allow you to successfully run away.

Cool, and then when you run away and your party dies because you can't help them run away, then you are on your own:smalltongue:

[Rubik]

Cool, and then when you run away and your party dies because you can't help them run away, then you are on your own:smalltongue:But see, that's what Diplomacy is for! You can beg other people to be your minions and are a party unto yourself!

Too bad that monks don't do Charisma...

[ranagrande]

Cool, and then when you run away and your party dies because you can't help them run away, then you are on your own:smalltongue:

Let's be honest. If you're up against something that's going to result in a TPK, how is a Monk going to help? At least by fleeing you can get reinforcements, as Rubik alluded to.


But see, that's what Diplomacy is for! You can beg other people to be your minions and are a party unto yourself!

Too bad that monks don't do Charisma...
Nothing says that they can't. For a character like this I would prioritize my stats as follows: Charisma, Dexterity, Constitution, Wisdom, Intelligence, Strength.

[The Trickster]

Let's be honest. If you're up against something that's going to result in a TPK, how is a Monk going to help? At least by fleeing you can get reinforcements, as Rubik alluded to.

Yeah, monks can't really help in this situation. That's kinda the point. Other classes can help each other get away away. You can have a wizard who can teleport the group, or polymorph into a fast monster that can carry the party. Perhaps a knight who can use his challenge ability to keep the monster away while his team can leave. Monks just...run away faster.

I view diplomacy the same way I do UMD. It's powerful, but I'm not sure we can say that just having it makes the class better. Can we raise rogue to tier 1 because they have UMD? While diplomacy is powerful, and while a monk can use it, why build a monk that way? Other classes get diplomacy, and can use it better, so I can't really say that having diplomacy makes the monk good. From strictly a power-level perspective, if you are going diplomacy, build something else that benefits from a high charisma, like a sorcerer or paladin. At least if they can't diplomacy something, they can stay and fight, not just run away.

If the best thing a Monk can do in a life-or-death situation is run away faster than everyone else, then there is a problem somewhere.

[georgie_leech]

Monks can't really help in this situation. That is kinda the point. Other classes can help eachother run away. Something like a wizard ho can teleport the group, or polymorph into a fast monster that can carry the party. Perhaps a knight who can use his challenge ability to keep the monster away while his team can leave. Monks just...run away faster.

I view diplomacy the same way I do UMD. It's powerful, but I'm not sure we can say that just having it makes the class better. Can we raise rogue to tier 1 because they have UMD? While diplomacy is powerful, and while a monk can use it, why build a monk that way? From strictly a power-level perspective, if you are going diplomacy, build something else that benefits from a high charisma, like a sorcerer or paladin. At least if they can't diplomacy something, they can stay and fight, not just run away.

If the best thing a Monk can do in a life-or-death situation is run away faster than everyone else, then there is a problem somewhere.

I don't think anyone's claiming the monk is actually good. Just commenting on whether the monk has options without magical items or not.

[The Trickster]

I don't think anyone's claiming the monk is actually good. Just commenting on whether the monk has options without magical items or not.

Yeah I got sidetracked, sorry. I guess I'll just be quiet now. My final verdict? Both fighters and Monks are in trouble if they have no magic items. :smalltongue:

[NeoPhoenix0]

Hmm, total MAD monk. Sounds like a bad idea, but I managed to get a total MAD ranger working once.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Monkday comes earlier every week, it seems.

[Sith_Happens]

What happens when you break a Fighter's weapon? They're unarmed and unless they're specialized in Unarmed combat (in which case, why carry a weapon?) they're likely to be beaten in a direct confrontation with a Monk or Barbarian.

The only things that happen is that the Fighter loses some damage (but still does a lot more than the Monk) and provokes an AoO from attacking (which he has enough of a hit point and AC advantage to handle, especially if the Monk doesn't have Combat Reflexes).

So yes, in a fistfight between a Monk and a Fighter, my money's still on the Fighter.


What happens when a Barbarian gets kited by a Monk until their Rage runs out? Monk slaughters the Barbarian... At least the Barbarian can still outrun the Fighter at higher levels.

A fatigued Barbarian still hits harder and more often than a Monk.

EDIT: Whoops, missed a page. No ninjas in sight, though.

[137beth]

Monkday comes earlier every week, it seems.

Huh, I thought it was still Sat-tier-day...

[eggynack]

Huh, I thought it was still Sat-tier-day...
I thought that Tiersday was the tier one. Maybe Thursday is truenamer based, like Truesday or something. I have utterly failed to keep track of these day based forum trends

[eggynack]

The only things that happen is that the Fighter loses some damage (but still does a lot more than the Monk) and provokes an AoO from attacking (which he has enough of a hit point and AC advantage to handle, especially if the Monk doesn't have Combat Reflexes).

So yes, in a fistfight between a Monk and a Fighter, my money's still on the Fighter.
Either that or they just use another weapon. Even with monetary limitations, quarterstaffs are still a thing. I'm pretty sure that the fighter can spontaneously convert a block of wood into a quarterstaff mid-combat. Unless you're in the weird, "a blighter is ruling the world government and wood is more valuable than gold," world, this is a not problem.

[Rubik]

Either that or they just use another weapon. Even with monetary limitations, quarterstaffs are still a thing. I'm pretty sure that the fighter can spontaneously convert a block of wood into a quarterstaff mid-combat. Unless you're in the weird, "a blighter is ruling the world government and wood is more valuable than gold," world, this is a not problem.Just use a chair as a club. It takes 0 seconds to produce one, after all, which basically means that so long as you have a vaguely stick-shaped thing, you can have a club.

[eggynack]

Just use a chair as a club. It takes 0 seconds to produce one, after all, which basically means that so long as you have a vaguely stick-shaped thing, you can have a club.
Not even close to possible. Wooden chairs are incredibly rare, because of how ridiculously expensive wood is. If you're talking about the world that isn't ruled by a crazy blighter, that's about what I was alluding to.

[Rubik]

Not even close to possible. Wooden chairs are incredibly rare, because of how ridiculously expensive wood is. If you're talking about the world that isn't ruled by a crazy blighter, that's about what I was alluding to.Then use an animal bone, or a long piece of stone.

Basically anything that could conceivably used to whack something upside the head could be used, without any real issue. If animals and plants are THAT rare, then you probably have even worse problems to deal with.

[eggynack]

Then use an animal bone, or a long piece of stone.

Basically anything that could conceivably used to whack something upside the head could be used, without any real issue. If animals and plants are THAT rare, then you probably have even worse problems to deal with.
Yeah, that should work. Also, they obviously have worse problems to deal with, because the death of nature over the last whatever period of time is presumably the plot of the campaign. In any case, it doesn't look like anything says that a quarterstaff must be made of wood, so our noble fighter with a sundered sword should be fine.

[ericgrau]

So, um, how about more ideas for other classes that are item dependent?

[Rubik]

So, um, how about more ideas for other classes that are item dependent?Anything that requires archery, other than the soulbow. Martial-based archery in general is so bad that it needs a top-of-the-line bow and top-of-the-line arrows, as well as quite a lot of other external paraphernalia, just to function. It's also insanely feat-intensive, which doesn't help at all.

[eggynack]

What do ya folks think about rogues? A lot of the best methods to get sneak attack rely on items, and UMD is one of their best assets. They also have usual melee class issues, like weapon and armor requirements. They have some nifty itemless tricks, but they're certainly not the least item dependent class. It's worth some consideration.

[TuggyNE]

No ninjas in sight, though.

When are they ever, though? :smalltongue:

[137beth]

I thought that Tiersday was the tier one. Maybe Thursday is truenamer based, like Truesday or something. I have utterly failed to keep track of these day based forum trends

I honestly have no idea. The only one I actually remember is Monkday...the others I think people just randomly make up on the spot:smallredface:

[eggynack]

I honestly have no idea. The only one I actually remember is Monkday...the others I think people just randomly make up on the spot:smallredface:
Day by day, minute by minute, more by more, I begin to suspect that what you say is true. Many things attempt to gain some hold in the collective unconsciousness, but very few of those things succeed.

[Sith_Happens]

Day by day, minute by minute, more by more, I begin to suspect that what you say is true. Many things attempt to gain some hold in the collective unconsciousness, but very few of those things succeed.

Blue as the sarcasm font caught on surprisingly quickly, though.

[eggynack]

Blue as the sarcasm font caught on surprisingly quickly, though.
It makes some sense, given how valuable it is. This forum as a whole has largely sidestepped the issue of Poe's law on the nature of blue text alone, to the point where I wish that I could use it everywhere. It's a rather interesting thing that it pulled in support like that though. Still, blue text is one of the few things that has caught on in that way. I'm going to keep using my dramatic purple text, and tuggyne's nitpicking gray text , but I doubt they're ever going to catch on to nearly that extent.

[Crasical]

Easy Bake Wizards are fine in zero wealth games.
[...]
Notes: if it doesn't turn out right when playing it in a zero wealth game, you picked bad spells.

:smalltongue: "It'll be fine! Unless it's not, in which case it's your fault!"

[Karnith]

:smalltongue: "It'll be fine! Unless it's not, in which case it's your fault!"
I know what it sounded like, but if you can manage to be useless while getting six wizard spells known per level, I would say that you really have made some pretty bad choices and should feel bad.

[Gavinfoxx]

I know what it sounded like, but if you can manage to be useless while getting six wizard spells known per level, I would say that you've made some pretty bad choices and should feel bad.

That's what I was saying... and you get more than that...