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View Full Version : [3.5] Offensive use of the Mount spell



AxeD
2013-07-10, 09:00 AM
Hi Playgrounders, I've had an concept bouncing around my head all day and Google hasn't been able to help me. As such, I thought I'd ask here and see if anyone can point out some flaws in my thinking (I'm sure it won't be hard).

What happens if you cast a mount spell so that the mount materializes above an enemy? The spell description says "Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)" and doesn't specify that you have to cast it on solid ground.

We know that based on the falling rules a 200 pound object dropping 10 feet deals 1d6 untyped damage. Add 1d6 for each additional 200 pounds, and another 1d6 for each extra 10 feet fallen (Max 20d6). Additionally falling speed from the (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingInThreeDimensions) SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#subjectiveDirectionalGravity) indicates that it falls 150ft in the first round and 300ft each subsequent round.

Basic Google-fu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse) tells me that a light horse can weigh from 840 to 1,200 lb, so being conservative you could say that the minimum weight a mount conjured by the spell would weigh at least 800lb (4d6 damage for the first 10ft + 1d6 for each additional 10ft).

Q1.) So, based on this math, could a 1st level wizard cast a mount spell 25 ft above an enemy and do 5d6 damage to it?

Q2.) When does the mount start falling? At the start of it's turn? At the end? At the beginning of it's next turn? Any official rulings?


Q2a.) What happens when using RoF (Rule of Funny) or Looney Tunes physics?

Q3.) Would the enemy get a reflex save to avoid being hit? Is an attack roll / ranged touch attack necessary?


Q3a.) If an attack roll / ranged-touch attack is needed, would range increments come into play based on how far the horse is falling? (ie, dropping it from 100ft)

Q4.) The light horse (the biggest summon available with the spell) is a large-sized creature. Does this mean that it should affect multiple squares? If so, 1x2 or 2x2? I'm fairly sure that it should have a space of 10ft, so it should be 2x2, but logically in my head, I can't see it hitting 4 individual enemies in separate squares.


Q4a.) If it does effect more than one square, does this affect the way it "attacks"? (ie, do you need to roll a ranged touch attack for each enemy it might fall on?)

Q5.) What happens to the horse? (Besides taking falling damage). If it doesn't take enough damage to die and falls unconscious, does the enemy hit by it need to make a strength check to push it off? I'm assuming that if it "dies" it returns to the celestial realm.


Q5a.) What actually happens to summoned monsters when they die / drop below 0 hit points? I seem to recall that they don't die but return to wherever you summoned them from? Any idea of what condition they return in?

Q6.) OK, this line of questioning is getting somewhat philosophical. Where does the horse come from? The spell doesn't specify that it comes from another plane like Summon Monster I does. I'm going to feel a twinge of guilt if I'm summoning living horses (possibly from a farm on the material plane?) and dropping it to it's death.

Q7.) Finally, what's the most damage you could do in a single round (assuming that the mount can only fall 150ft in that round)? My unreliable math says 18d6 (4d6 from weight, 14d6 for the remaining 140ft).

Just curious:smallconfused:. Any input or stories about falling creatures/objects would be appreciated.

Kazuel
2013-07-10, 09:04 AM
To be honest, my mind went somewhere else when I read "Offensive use of mount" but I'm glad I was wrong.

Mr.Bookworm
2013-07-10, 09:04 AM
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

This particular line of thought is a non-starter, I'm afraid.


Q6.) OK, this line of questioning is getting somewhat philosophical. Where does the horse come from? The spell doesn't specify that it comes from another plane like Summon Monster I does. I'm going to feel a twinge of guilt if I'm summoning living horses (possibly from a farm on the material plane?) and dropping it to it's death.


A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead.

vikingofdoom
2013-07-10, 09:05 AM
Unfortunately, this idea doesn't work because all creatures and items summoned by Conjuration spells must be placed on a surface that can support them.

Humble Master
2013-07-10, 09:14 AM
This particular line of thought is a non-starter, I'm afraid. I'm going to have to second this. The rules are pretty clear that you can create stuff in mid air.

nedz
2013-07-10, 10:00 AM
You can use mount defensively: If you know you are about to be charged — summon a mount between you and the charger. Of course there may well be better things to do with you spell slots/actions, but it can be done.

There are other amusing things you can do. Summoning a horse inside someone's bedroom could cause a minor scandal. Shame you can't just summon a horse's head really.

RagnaroksChosen
2013-07-10, 10:05 AM
What about if you cast floating disk, then summon the mount on the disk.. Then dismiss the disk.. I know it seems rather complicated and not optimal but can it be done?

Mr.Bookworm
2013-07-10, 10:11 AM
What about if you cast floating disk, then summon the mount on the disk.. Then dismiss the disk.. I know it seems rather complicated and not optimal but can it be done?


Effect: 3-ft.-diameter disk of force


The disk also winks out if you move beyond range or try to take the disk more than 3 feet away from the surface beneath it.

Even if you could somehow fit a horse on the thing, your enemy would have to be lying down under it, and it still wouldn't do any damage.

Deadline
2013-07-10, 10:28 AM
If you have the Cloudy Conjuration feat from Complete Mage, you can use Mount offensively by conjuring it up next to your enemy.

AxeD
2013-07-10, 10:44 AM
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
This particular line of thought is a non-starter, I'm afraid..

Not that I don't believe you (since it sounds completely reasonable), but where is this from?

ahenobarbi
2013-07-10, 10:48 AM
Even if you could somehow fit a horse on the thing, your enemy would have to be lying down under it, and it still wouldn't do any damage.

Well you could put a piece of paper under the disc, attach it to the disc and then have it go arbitrarily high (the piece of paper being "surface beneath it") :smallbiggrin:

ahenobarbi
2013-07-10, 10:49 AM
Not that I don't believe you (since it sounds completely reasonable), but where is this from?

Conjuration school description (www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration).

RagnaroksChosen
2013-07-10, 11:36 AM
Even if you could somehow fit a horse on the thing, your enemy would have to be lying down under it, and it still wouldn't do any damage.

Fair enough.. Just a thought

Fouredged Sword
2013-07-10, 12:24 PM
What you want is a survival pouch. You can pull a donkey out of it six times a day.

Fly up and drop the poor animal on your target. Also available using unseen servant.

Also great for blocking stairwells at lower levels.

gorfnab
2013-07-10, 12:42 PM
Regal Procession (SC) - it's basically Mount/CL. Lots of potential for shenanigans.

Piggy Knowles
2013-07-10, 02:36 PM
Mount + raven familiar flying overhead + Benign Transposition?

nedz
2013-07-10, 04:36 PM
Mount + Large Catapult, though it's more traditional to use cows.

Talya
2013-07-10, 04:37 PM
To be honest, my mind went somewhere else when I read "Offensive use of mount" but I'm glad I was wrong.


Get out of my head!

Venusaur
2013-07-10, 10:14 PM
Regal Procession (SC) - it's basically Mount/CL. Lots of potential for shenanigans.

Wall of Force, meet Wall of Horse.