Druid who is a ghost. What happens?

[killem2]

I have a player who is going to join my group (i am the dm) in a couple month when he has time and I am helping him make a Lizardfolk Druid Ghost.

How does this effect things like wild shaping?

What happens if he wild shapes with out manifesting?

Is there any way he can use items beside the ghostly touch magic property?

How about the animal companion? Is it a ghost? Can it be corporeal?

What other things should we be aware of? :smallconfused:

[Vaz]

As a ghost he has no Str or Con score(incorporeal undead).

[Urpriest]

In terms of items, the Ghostly Grasp feat (Libris Mortis) is your friend. Without it, the only corporeal items he can access are those that were with him when he died.

He can still Wild Shape (though by silly RAW he can't change back, since his normal form is a form with a template and that isn't allowed as per Alternate Form). He keeps his original type and subtype, so he remains undead, even though he gains a Con score. This is...weird, but there don't appear to be any provisions for a different outcome. You keep your old special qualities, so all the undead immunities remain as well. Similarly, you remain incorporeal, or ethereal if you're not manifested.

You still get a (non-ghost) animal companion. It might be called on the ethereal plane though.

[ahenobarbi]

He keeps incorporeal subtype when wild shaping, so even after wildshaping he'd have no natural armor, strength or condition.

He would hate himself( he is a druid and druids hate undead, so he hates undead. He hates undead and he is undead so he hates himself).

I recall reading somewhere that animal companion would abandon druid who became undead, but I'm not sure where (so it's quite possible I'm wrong here).

[Talderas]

He can still Wild Shape (though by silly RAW he can't change back, since his normal form is a form with a template and that isn't allowed as per Alternate Form). He keeps his original type and subtype, so he remains undead, even though he gains a Con score. This is...weird, but there don't appear to be any provisions for a different outcome. You keep your old special qualities, so all the undead immunities remain as well. Similarly, you remain incorporeal, or ethereal if you're not manifested.

An undead druid cannot wildshape without the feat Corrupted Wild Shape from Libris Mortis. It suggests that wild shape is based off polymorph though the ability of wild shape says it's based off alternate form.

If that is true then a druid ghost is not able to wild shape even with corrupted wild shape. Since the new form would inheret the incorporeal subtype and polymorph does not permit changing into an incorporeal form there would be no valid form to turn into.

That aside, so if the druid can wildshape the druid would gain the physical ability score of the new form but as it still has the undead type and incorporeal subtype, it's constitution and strength scores would return to null.

[EyethatBinds]

I'd discourage the player from being a ghost in the first place. His character is effectively unkillable until his purpose is finished, whatever it may be. Just sets up the game for bad times since most of the rest of the players will be likely (A) unhappy that they aren't invulnerable too, and (B) working with an evil undead. Given the other mechanical questions that could come up, I'd personally prefer to simply disbar the ghost template for this particular PC.

[killem2]

I'd discourage the player from being a ghost in the first place. His character is effectively unkillable until his purpose is finished, whatever it may be. Just sets up the game for bad times since most of the rest of the players will be likely (A) unhappy that they aren't invulnerable too, and (B) working with an evil undead. Given the other mechanical questions that could come up, I'd personally prefer to simply disbar the ghost template for this particular PC.

A. Our players are not petty.

B. Ghost are not evil.

[Urpriest]

An undead druid cannot wildshape without the feat Corrupted Wild Shape from Libris Mortis. It suggests that wild shape is based off polymorph though the ability of wild shape says it's based off alternate form.

If that is true then a druid ghost is not able to wild shape even with corrupted wild shape. Since the new form would inheret the incorporeal subtype and polymorph does not permit changing into an incorporeal form there would be no valid form to turn into.

That aside, so if the druid can wildshape the druid would gain the physical ability score of the new form but as it still has the undead type and incorporeal subtype, it's constitution and strength scores would return to null.

Corrupted Wildshape was necessary when Wildshape was based on Polymorph. Since it was errataed to be based on Alternate Form, this no longer applies.

As for the Str and Con scores, that depends on the order of operations. Does the type take effect before or after Wildshape changes your ability scores?

[Jack_Simth]

As a ghost he has no Str or Con score(incorporeal undead).
Sort of. He definately lacks the Con score, but Ghosts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm) (at least in 3.5) have a funky clause: "A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. "

So unlike most incorporeal undead, a Ghost retains a strength score (it's just only usable on the Ethereal plane).

[Spuddles]

Wouldn't wildshape just turn you into a bear (per normal), but having the incorporeal subtype would nix your str score. You'd gain a con, score though.

[Urpriest]

Wouldn't wildshape just turn you into a bear (per normal), but having the incorporeal subtype would nix your str score. You'd gain a con, score though.

You also keep the undead type. That might nix your Con score as well, it's unclear because Wildshape doesn't have an order of operations.

[Spuddles]

Oh yeah, consistency is tricky on that. Hmm.

[the_david]

A Lizardfolk Ghost has 2 racial hitdice and a LA of +6. His ECL would be 9 if he had 1 level of druid.
Besides that, Lizardfolk doesn't have a good synergy with the Ghost template. He'll lose his Natural Armor, his Claw-Claw-Bite needs a Magic Fang to even have a chance to effect creatures on the Material Plane, and he get's a +2 bonus on the 2 abilities a Ghost doesn't have. The same goes for the Druid's Wildshape ability.

So, uhm... Not a good choice.

[Scow2]

A Lizardfolk Ghost has 2 racial hitdice and a LA of +6. His ECL would be 9 if he had 1 level of druid.
Besides that, Lizardfolk doesn't have a good synergy with the Ghost template. He'll lose his Natural Armor, his Claw-Claw-Bite needs a Magic Fang to even have a chance to effect creatures on the Material Plane, and he get's a +2 bonus on the 2 abilities a Ghost doesn't have. The same goes for the Druid's Wildshape ability.

So, uhm... Not a good choice.

Ignore LA. That stuff's stupid anyway when it becomes inherited. Heck. It's stupid even when it's NOT inherited.

However, by RAW and RAI, even Magic Fang won't let his attacks attack the material plane - Magic attacks transfer from the material plane to the Ethereal plane (Where Incorporeal undead originally resided, though that got shuffled around with 3.5), but the reverse does NOT hold true. The solution is for him to Manifest, then Jaunt to the Material Plane, where he's no longer an Incorporeal Undead.

[Jack_Simth]

Ignore LA. That stuff's stupid anyway when it becomes inherited. Heck. It's stupid even when it's NOT inherited.
The numbers are generally pretty off, but something very much like it is needed if you're going to permit players to play monstrous critters.

Compare the Pixie Rogue-1 to a halfling Rogue-1:

Pixie Advantages:
Unusual type (immunity to a lot of different spells)
Fly 60 (Good)
DR 10/Cold Iron
Greater Invisibility
Low-light Vision
Spell Resistance 16
Dodge and Weapon Finess as bonus feats
+8 Dex (vs. +2 Dex for the halfling)
+6 Int
+4 Wis
+6 Cha
Several spell-like abilities
+1 Natural Armor
+2 Search
Special Arrows

Halfling Advantages:
-2 strength (Pixie has -4)
+2 to Climb and Jump (neither of which the pixie generally needs, thanks to the FLY SPEED)
+1 Racial bonus to saving throws (which is eclipsed by the pixie stat bonuses for anything other than fortitude)
+2 Morale on saves vs. Fear (putting them at +1 on Will saves vs. Fear only over the pixie)
+1 Racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings (which is eclipsed by the Pixie's superior Dexterity bonus)

So really, he Halfling just has.. +1 to Fort saves, +1 to Will saves vs. Fear, and +2 Str, when compared to the Pixie. The pixie, however, has a rather lot of advantages when compared to the halfling. At level 1, that DR 10/Cold Iron is a massive advantage, as is the invisibility and flight. The pixie rogue can sneak attack every round vs. most opponents, from 30 feet away (arrows), while the halfling rogue trying the same thing only gets sneak attack when he wins initiative; otherwise, he'll need to mix it up in melee to get sneak attack.

So the Pixie is very nearly strictly superior to the halfling. There needs to be some form of handicap if these two are going to be made equivalently powerful in the same party (assuming that they're built to similar levels of optimization other than race selection).

Is LA perfect? Far from it. But something like it is needed.

[the_david]

Pathfinder suggests you'd use the CR instead. So a Lizardfolk Ghost Druid 1 would have a CR of 4, and would fight along with his companions who are also at level 4.

[killem2]

A Lizardfolk Ghost has 2 racial hitdice and a LA of +6. His ECL would be 9 if he had 1 level of druid.
Besides that, Lizardfolk doesn't have a good synergy with the Ghost template. He'll lose his Natural Armor, his Claw-Claw-Bite needs a Magic Fang to even have a chance to effect creatures on the Material Plane, and he get's a +2 bonus on the 2 abilities a Ghost doesn't have. The same goes for the Druid's Wildshape ability.

So, uhm... Not a good choice.

It is, but he's new to d&d, so I let him have the PHB 1, and MM and told him go crazy :) so, that's what he came up with.

I don't mind. We're all friends. Being a ghost helps a lot more because he will only be able to play via web came and due to family responsibilities he somtimes may have to leave after a couple hours, so it helps that he can just go away :)

He's very excited about it.

[Fouredged Sword]

As far as I can tell, he turns into animals, but they are immaterial, just like he is.

Ghost animals.

WOOOooooOOOOoooOOOOoo.

[Rubik]

Were I him, I'd be possessing other creatures and wild shaping into things. Possess a baby bear and look all cute and stuff. Then when something threatens him, he morphs into a bestial bear from beyond.

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/169/0/0/defeating_the_ursa_minor_by_stalinthestallion-d53y1sl.png

Also, I'd find ways to take feats for tentacles. Because possessing things and bursting into tentacles is always awesome.