Quick Radiant Servant Question

[Gerbiltamer]

Hi guys. Just wondering if Radiant Servant grants me greater turning in addition to normal turning, or if it replaces normal turning. Thanks!

[Tar Palantir]

In addition.

[BowStreetRunner]

The Sun Domain allows you to "perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning" once per day. The RSoP Extra Greater Turning ability allows you to do this up to 3+CHA Mod times per day. Each time you perform a greater turning you do it in place of a regular turning attempt, so have to spend a turn attempt as normal.

[INoKnowNames]

The Sun Domain allows you to "perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning" once per day. The RSoP Extra Greater Turning ability allows you to do this up to 3+CHA Mod times per day. Each time you perform a greater turning you do it in place of a regular turning attempt, so have to spend a turn attempt as normal.

.... Yeah, that's definitely not how I or anyone I've played with has ever read that out to be.


Once per day, you can perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning. The greater turning is like a normal turning except that the undead creatures that would be turned are destroyed instead.

This mean that, instead of responding to an undead with a regular turning, you can choose to use this 1 time per day Greater Turning, which functions as regular turning but with destruction instead of fear. They're separate abilities here, that just happen to function similar.


Extra Greater Turning: The radiant servant of Pelor can perform a greater turning (the granted power of the Sun domain) a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier.

This just says you can do it more than once per day. In neither description does it say anything about eating turn attempts to do so, like:


Divine Impetus (Su): At 7th level, you learn how to use the divine power of the Stern Lady to quicken your reactions and act without hesitation. You can expend a turn or rebuke undead attempt to gain one additional swift action this round. For example, you could use this ability to both change your stance and initiate a boost maneuver in the same turn, or if you initiated a counter before your turn, you can activate this ability and then initiate a boost on your turn.

So the way I've seen it and been playing it, you get 7+Cha uses of Turn Undead (due to required Extra Turning), and 3+Cha uses of Greater Turn Undead.

Sources: Sun Domain, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#sunDomain) Radiant Servant, (http://dndtools.eu/classes/radiant-servant-of-pelor/)Ruby Knight Vindicator. (http://dndtools.eu/classes/ruby-knight-vindicator/)

[Gerbiltamer]

Thanks guys!

[Crake]

I'd have to agree with BowStreetRunner, it says "in place of a regular turning" meaning you use the turn attempt as normal, but you get a different effect in place of the normal effect. Radiant Servant simply lets you use that ability mutiple times per day, essentially allowing you to convert more regular turns into greater turns.

[INoKnowNames]

I'd have to agree with BowStreetRunner, it says "in place of a regular turning" meaning you use the turn attempt as normal, but you get a different effect in place of the normal effect. Radiant Servant simply lets you use that ability mutiple times per day, essentially allowing you to convert more regular turns into greater turns.

WOTC's Website supports my viewpoint. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070807)


•Special Abilities: Along with his impressive spellcasting abilities, a radiant servant of Pelor gains a suite of special abilities that augment both his healing ability and his undead-destroying capability. Levels in radiant servant of Pelor stack with cleric levels for all purposes regards turning undead.
◦At 1st level, he gains extra greater turning attempts, and any spell he casts with the light descriptor becomes larger and more powerful.
◦At 8th level, a radiant servant of Pelor can spend two of his daily turning attempts to damage all undead within 100 ft. of him by releasing a burst of positive energy

Emphasis mine. If they wanted to make Greater Turn cost regular uses, it seems like they would have said so.

[Devils_Advocate]

In neither description does it say anything about eating turn attempts to do so
YES IT DOES, as BowStreetRunner quoted.


Once per day, you can perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning. The greater turning is like a normal turning except that the undead creatures that would be turned are destroyed instead.


If they wanted to make Greater Turn cost regular uses, it seems like they would have said so.
THEY DID.

[Hua]

My group that had a Radiant Servent all understood it to be in place of, meaning it was not in addition to, the regular turnings.

Seems pretty clear to all of us. I was DM and that is how the player also understood it. He never even brought up if they were bonus turnings, as he did not consider it to be so either.

[INoKnowNames]

YES IT DOES, as BowStreetRunner quoted.

You noted what he quoted, yet you ignored both things I quoted?


THEY DID.

If it weren't so late at night, and if this subject didn't already seem so cut and dry, I'd be willing to make this post far more prolific over this subject.

Every single other ability, be it class ability or feat (particularly all those Divine Feats), that requires uses of turn/rebuke undead to activate, specifically site expending or spending or otherwise using a use of turn/rebuke.

The Sun Domain's granted power specifically sites its being used Once Per Day as its power source, so to speak, like the other 1 per day abilities, like the Death and Destruction Domain abilities.

The main reason the Sun Domain notes to use the ability while fighting undead instead of the basic turning is because there are other domains with similar granted powers, usable more because they don't instantly kill the target, and that this is the only of such similarly granted abilities that target the normal target of the base ability to which all other of such similar abilities are based on (Turn Undead).

The ability gets expanded into an outright reusable class feature by the Prestige Class, because of one's increased dedication and practice fighting undead. Said class feature reads just like the other Core Domain Abilities that let you Turn/Rebuke other creatures (The Air, Water, Earth, Fire, and Plant Domains). You gain the ability to Greater Turn Undead, but instead of 1 day, you can do it 3+Cha times.

Otherwise, can you explain why the other 1-day abilities don't require sapping turn undead uses, despite the Sun Domain apparently needing to despite it otherwise working exactly like them (even being a good-aligned opposite to the Death Domain ability)? And how some people count being able to turn Plants or Elementals as seperate abilities from being able to Turn Undead despite that they would share the same pool of 3+Cha by this interpretation? And why this is the only ability in existence that doesn't actually note needing to expend a turn undead use, despite every single other one I can find specifically saying to do so? And then why Wotc would note that you gain extra uses of the ability, rather than that you can choose to burn more turn undead to reuse it, like with the Devotion Feats?

Though, I'll be honest, I see no reason to debate further on wordplay over 2+2=4, so I'm pretty much done putting in my 2 CP.

[Scow2]

It always replaces the normal Turn Undead: As in, it uses a Turn Undead use. However, Greater Turning can only be used so many times.

If a cleric has, say, 5 uses of Turn Undead, and does not have Extra Greater Turning, he can use one of his Turn Undead abilities and have it be a Greater Turn undead... but only once per day. If you have used your Greater Turning that day to substitute a Normal Turn for a Greater Turn, you can't substitute any more Greater Turn Undeads. Only if you get Extra Greater Turn Undead can you turn your normal Turn Undead abilities into Greater Turn Undead.

Furthermore, the Sun domain's power was written long before "Spend Turn Attempts" was codified as a mechanic. So, it ended up with awkward wording.

To put it another way: Greater Turn Undead is an augment to normal Undead Turning. However, you can only augment a Turn Attempt to make it a Greater Turn attempt a limited number of times per day.

The mechanic closest to this is Meta-Spell-Like-Ability feats, which allow you to apply a metamagic effect to an SLA a certain number of times per day. If you have more uses of the SLA than the MetaSLA feat gives, they must be normal uses. If you have more daily uses of the MetaSLA than you have uses of the SLA, those extra MetaSLA uses are wasted.


Neither of the things you quoted replaced the "In place of a normal turning check" clause, which would be an awkward way of saying it used a Turn Undead attempt if it weren't for the fact that it used the same mechanics.

In fact, using what you stated:

The ability gets expanded into an outright reusable class feature by the Prestige Class, because of one's increased dedication and practice fighting undead. Said class feature reads just like the other Core Domain Abilities that let you Turn/Rebuke other creatures (The Air, Water, Earth, Fire, and Plant Domains). You gain the ability to Greater Turn Undead, but instead of 1 day, you can do it 3+Cha times.

Otherwise, can you explain why the other 1-day abilities don't require sapping turn undead uses, despite the Sun Domain apparently needing to despite it otherwise working exactly like them (even being a good-aligned opposite to the Death Domain ability)? And how some people count being able to turn Plants or Elementals as seperate abilities from being able to Turn Undead despite that they would share the same pool of 3+Cha by this interpretation? And why this is the only ability in existence that doesn't actually note needing to expend a turn undead use, despite every single other one I can find specifically saying to do so? And then why Wotc would note that you gain extra uses of the ability, rather than that you can choose to burn more turn undead to reuse it, like with the Devotion Feats?The other 1/day abilties don't involve making Turning attempts, or using the Turn Undead mechanics at all (And aren't capable of killing 2d6+Level+Cha Hit Dice of creatures within a 60' Radius). The Death Domain's power MIGHT be able to kill ONE creature with 1/3rd your HD. Maybe. If you're lucky. And the Turning Plants/Elementals DOES use the same pool of uses as Turn Undead.

And the reason it doesn't note needing to expend a Turn Undead use is because it's NOT unique in that regard: Turn Undead/Elementals/Constructs also lack the "You must expend a use of Turn Undead" clause. The only abilities that DO have that clause are ones that draw from the Turn Undead pool but don't otherwise engage the Turning mechanics.