Getting, or granting, a Psicrystal an edge.

[Garret Dorigan]

Psicrystals, what with their gaining of actual HD (and thus, albeit argumentatively, feats) are kinda like familiars on steroids. Now, of course they can do the same UMD/UPD tricks that a familiar can, but can they get something that they can use on their own?

Well, yeah, obviously. Hidden Talent gives a Psicrystal a 1st level power, but it only can use it twice with the PP they get, and Martial Study taken twice at certain HD can get you ranged attacks in cone or "orb" form from Desert Wind and multiple other effects from other disciplines... but they are only usable once per encounter. There's Metamorphosis, but then that's not really a psicrystal at that point, is it? :smalltongue:

So, I propose a "Psicrystal pseudo-iron-chef". What kind of hijinks can you think of that makes a Psicrystal's compliment of actions not wasted every round based on it's own powers that it gets from feats and what-not?

[Rubik]

Psicrystals, what with their gaining of actual HD (and thus, albeit argumentatively, feats)Actually, there's no argument to be made against psicrystals getting feats. The rules are crystal clear about it.

As far as granting psicrystals nifty abilities? There's the standard stealth skills + Darkstalker, as well as Life Sense and Mindsight (though the latter is mildly questionable). A draconic aura could give the entire party fast healing once they hit below half-hp.

But the best part about psicrystals is what they already get. They're tough little buggers, what with the 8 hardness, and they get more abilities than familiars do as they go up in level. They can also speak one language right off, and their form of telepathy is neither mind-affecting nor language-dependent, so they can be perfect universal translators. Monks can speak with anything at level 17? Psicrystals can do it at level 5. They're also constructs, so they gain medium BAB, they can be Metamorphosis'd into golems and animated objects, and they don't have to eat, breathe, or sleep, meaning they can endure situations that no magical beast could survive without being buffed.

I ♥ psicrystals.

[Phelix-Mu]

I noted in another psionics thread that I once saw reference to some web content about making one's psicrystal better/stronger. It might have been 3.0 stuff, but a DM of mine is allowing some 3.0 content.

Any links or references would be appreciated. My googling so far has not hit on the right key word, it seems.

[Vedhin]

Personally, I like barding with armor spikes. It gives the psicrystal a melee attack, and everything associated with it.

[Jack_Simth]

I noted in another psionics thread that I once saw reference to some web content about making one's psicrystal better/stronger. It might have been 3.0 stuff, but a DM of mine is allowing some 3.0 content.

Any links or references would be appreciated. My googling so far has not hit on the right key word, it seems.
Is this it? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020322a)

Edit: Also, check out Hyperconscious (3rd party book).

Edit: Arming the psicrystal seems to make sense, but there's a problem: As a Fine creature, it needs to go up three size categories before it can actually hit anyone without provoking an AoO by entering their square.

[Rubik]

Is this it? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020322a)

Edit: Also, check out Hyperconscious (3rd party book).

Edit: Arming the psicrystal seems to make sense, but there's a problem: As a Fine creature, it needs to go up three size categories before it can actually hit anyone without provoking an AoO by entering their square.There's the Long Reach feat, from Unapproachable East. If you can somehow manage to put the aptitude weapon enhancement on your psicrystal's unarmed strike, or on a weapon it wields, it gets 15' of reach on its turns without changing size categories. Still no AoOs, though.

[Phelix-Mu]

Is this it? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020322a)

Not sure if that was it, but some of that article is pretty cool. Thanks. Also, mostly converts pretty well to 3.5 (some of the 3.0 psionics stuff is pretty unrecognizable, as I haven't seen the 3.0 book in over a decade).

[Darth Stabber]

When I first read the title I though you were talking bout sharpening a psicrytal and using as a weapon.

The old sharepain/vigor combo is really nice, but I don't thing that's the kind of thing you were going for.

I played in one game with 2 psions, both with psicrystals. Once they could communicate telepathically their crystals they would trade them when the party was split up (psion A would take psicrystal B, psion B would take psicrystal A) and use them as walkie talkies.

If you wanted a more combative psicrystal go with shape soulmeld (the acid spitting one), and some feats that grant essentia. You now have an acid beam.

[Vedhin]

Edit: Arming the psicrystal seems to make sense, but there's a problem: As a Fine creature, it needs to go up three size categories before it can actually hit anyone without provoking an AoO by entering their square.

It's actually Diminutive. But the awesome thing to do is give it all the "the bigger they are, the harder they fall" feats. Then watch your spike-covered piece of rock beat up on giants and dragons and such.

Edit: Alas, Shape Soulmeld requires Con 13. A psicrystal has Con -.

[Rubik]

If you wanted a more combative psicrystal go with shape soulmeld (the acid spitting one), and some feats that grant essentia. You now have an acid beam.Non-living constructs can't use incarnum or essentia without house-rules.

[Darth Stabber]

Alas, Shape Soulmeld requires Con 13. A psicrystal has Con -.


Non-living constructs can't use incarnum or esentia without house-rules.

Valid point. I could see houseruling undead meldshaper to apply to constructs too, but that's purely houserule territory. But yeah, I forgot about that whole "constitution score" thing.

[Rubik]

Edit: Alas, Shape Soulmeld requires Con 13. A psicrystal has Con -.You aren't allowed to edit-ninja me after I've already posted the answer to something. How would you like it if I went and edited in the answer before the original question, huh? Huh huh huh?

[Phelix-Mu]

Also, while we are at it, I've noticed a couple of tricks involving schism and psicrystals. These tricks elude to some way to get schism on your psicrystal, but isn't schism mind-affecting? Is there some rule somewhere that lets me get rid of that particular immunity (or is this the area of just telling my psicrystal to lower its immunity long enough for me to get the power onto them)?

[Rubik]

Also, while we are at it, I've noticed a couple of tricks involving schism and psicrystals. These tricks elude to some way to get schism on your psicrystal, but isn't schism mind-affecting? Is there some rule somewhere that lets me get rid of that particular immunity (or is this the area of just telling my psicrystal to lower its immunity long enough for me to get the power onto them)?Metamorphosis into a non-construct/non-vermin.

[Vedhin]

You aren't allowed to edit-ninja me after I've already posted the answer to something. How would you like it if I went and edited in the answer before the original question, huh? Huh huh huh?

Actually, you ninja'd my edit. I edited my post and you posted yours while I was editing apparently.

[Phelix-Mu]

Metamorphosis into a non-construct/non-vermin.

Does that actually change its creature type or just get rid of construct traits?

[Rubik]

Does that actually change its creature type or just get rid of construct traits?That changes it type and subtype to whatever you turn it into and it gains all the new traits thereof (and loses its old ones). And unlike Polymorph, you aren't limited to one size category from your original one.

[Phelix-Mu]

That changes it type and subtype to whatever you turn it into and it gains all the new traits thereof (and loses its old ones). And unlike Polymorph, you aren't limited to one size category from your original one.

Good golly. I think that might be useful. So it gains a Constitution while metamorposised to something with a Constitution?

[Rubik]

Good golly. I think that might be useful. So it gains a Constitution while metamorposised to something with a Constitution?Quite. Its hp are still 1/2 yours, though, so don't get too excited.

[Phelix-Mu]

Quite. Its hp are still 1/2 yours, though, so don't get too excited.

Mmm, but this method might allow it to temporarily do stuff earlier mentioned, like shape a meld. I know almost nothing specific about incarnum, but would the meld go away if the feat used to shape it went away (because the psicrystal is no-longer a creature with a constitution once metamorphosis ends)? There are a couple of other feats that key off constitution that might be useful for niche cases, and, in any case, this makes it easy to psy-reform the psycrystal. In the campaign I'm in, xp costs were eliminated due to leveling being based on plot progress, not acquisition of xp, so I don't even need thought bottle antics to manage extensive psy-reform (like, practically on-demand).

I'm also thinking that it would be pretty cool to have my psion simulacra his psicrystal. I don't know if this would be useful...but I'm kind of feeling that it would.

Lol, this could be really fun. Metamorphosis on psicrystal to make it some kind of creature (let's say humanoid). True mind switch from a simulacra of the psion to the metamorphed psicrystal. Dismiss the metamorphosis. Now the psicrystal has an Int of 38.

Ah, wow. A heady mixture.

[Garret Dorigan]

Good discussion... not exactly what I meant with my OP, but I like it. :smallbiggrin:

I was more talking about something like this build I had on an old Pyrokineticist's psicrystal.

Primordial Magic-Blooded Half-Giant

Wilder 10, Battle Dancer 1, Pyrokineticist 9 (LA bought off)

Psicrystal had Hidden Talent, Draconic Aura, Dragontouched, IUS, Combat Reflexes, Mindsight, Robilar's Gambit.

With Draconic Aura (Energy: Fire) and Dragontouched scaling the Aura bonus, the Psicrystal added 4 to the DC of Heat Death (After everything, the Heat Death DC was 36 or 38). The Psicrystal wore two items, a Vest Barding of Resistance +5 and a +2 Implacable Fleshgrinding Necklace Collar of Natural Attacks.

So the Pyro would Heat Death every round while throwing out a Bolt of Fire with Schism, and the Psicrystal would break off tiny nettles of itself (thank you Fleshgrinding) every attack that would whittle down and grind whoever it was attacking, provoking AoOs like crazy and (eventually) responding to those attacks with more nettles.

[Phelix-Mu]

Sorry if I kind of jacked your thread. No harm done, I trust.

Moreover, I just find that there is an extremely high level of crazy underlying the tricks one can pull off with psicrystals. It's actually pretty cool.

And I'm belatedly realizing that a homebrew prc that I made for a character in a campaign I was running that granted multiple psicrystals might have been much, much, crazy much more powerful than intended. I had anticipated that it would be some awesome action economy. I had not anticipated that these bitty rocks are tantamount to cohorts.

[Garret Dorigan]

No harm done at all. It's been my experience that any info beyond Metamorphosis and Vigor/Share Pain when it comes to optimizing Psicrystals isn't known that well. As such, general info is good info.

... and yeah, multiple Psicrystals seems a bit excessive like whoa. :smalltongue:

[Phelix-Mu]

No harm done at all. It's been my experience that any info beyond Metamorphosis and Vigor/Share Pain when it comes to optimizing Psicrystals isn't known that well. As such, general info is good info.

... and yeah, multiple Psicrystals seems a bit excessive like whoa. :smalltongue:

Well, it's funny. Familiars have different tricks than psicrystals, but seem less versatile. But, on the other hand, high-op familiars brings in Enspell Familiar and Extra Familiar and imbue familiar with spell ability and UMD to pretty crazy good effect. In addition, familiars have many more cool share spells combos, since there are straight up many more spells than powers.

So, my judgement when granting multiple psicrystals was clearly compromised, but maybe not too far off the mark.

Plus, I think an epic psion's psicrystal can actually gain a psicrystal, as Psicrystal Power seems to give the psicrystal it's own ML= master's ML. Of course, we could just skip this step and do something like a modified version of the psicrystal leadership chain.

1.) Psion's psicrystal takes Leadership and attracts cohort psion that has Psicrystal Affinity.

2.) Cohort psion uses UPD to fusion with psicrystal.

3.) I imagine there is a shenanigan that will allow the cohort to manifest astral seed while fusioned (the long casting time of fusion makes me wonder, though).

4.) Astral seed suicide chain commence! Eventually, a higher level psion could have a series of descending psicrystals with cohort psions melded with them.

Weird combo is weird.:smallsmile:

[Crasical]

Hmm. Is there any way to jack up the Psicrystal's Hardness or get damage resistance? I'm running Share Pain/Vigor anyway, I might slap constant/dutiful guardian on the thing and start parrying with it.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm. Is there any way to jack up the Psicrystal's Hardness or get damage resistance? I'm running Share Pain/Vigor anyway, I might slap constant/dutiful guardian on the thing and start parrying with it.

Well, I've often found that any broke I can think of can be arranged with polymorph any object. If hardening and matter manipulation won't work on a psicrystal, then maybe one can polymorph the psicrystal into an object that is a viable target for hardening/matter manipulation, and then dismiss the polymorph. Sounds wonky.

I have a feeling that some obscure bit of RAW about stacking transmutation effects doesn't work in this way. But I'm really not sure.

Speaking of which, maybe one could just get some crystal, pump its hardness up via the aforementioned powers/spells, then animate it with animate objects. Have the psicrystal fusion with the hardened crystal, then maybe the astral seed thing to have the psicrystal reborn into a new body? Not sure if this works, since psicrystal has stats that operate unlike those of a normal critter.

And, in case we want the full magic/psionics mashup...in before Tippy suggests an ice assassin trick!

[Rubik]

3.) I imagine there is a shenanigan that will allow the cohort to manifest astral seed while fusioned (the long casting time of fusion makes me wonder, though).Linked Power will do it.


Well, I've often found that any broke I can think of can be arranged with polymorph any object. If hardening and matter manipulation won't work on a psicrystal, then maybe one can polymorph the psicrystal into an object that is a viable target for hardening/matter manipulation, and then dismiss the polymorph. Sounds wonky.Remember, Metamorphosis allows one to become an object.

[Phelix-Mu]

Linked Power will do it.

Remember, Metamorphosis allows one to become an object.

Right, so no need to even question the plausibility.

Alright, I think psionics is about to become cooler than arcane magic in my book.:smallbiggrin:

[Jack_Simth]

When I first read the title I though you were talking bout sharpening a psicrytal and using as a weapon.This is totally doable - Metamorphosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm) permits objects, and even if you can't manifest it yourself, you can buy a Skin of Proteous (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinofProteus) to take care of it.

Have the psicrystal fusion with the hardened crystal, then maybe the astral seed thing to have the psicrystal reborn into a new body? Not sure if this works, since psicrystal has stats that operate unlike those of a normal critter.
Warning: Diamonds are Forever (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10123837&postcount=141) has a potential problem: "all the abilities you possessed when astral seed was manifested" - the keystone of the trick via Astral Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm) to make things stick - could potentially also include the remaining duration on things. So conceivably, you Fusion, Astral Seed, suicide, rebuild yourself, and a little while later, the Fusion expires, leaving you as you were (one level lower) before you started this whole mess.

[Garret Dorigan]

I would think that the biggest whoa moment of having multiple Psicrystals would be Feat Leeching them... all of them.

On to other things, technically, with the wording of the Hardening spell there isn't anything saying you can't cast it multiple times on the same object and increasing it's hardness each time. That's super cheesy and bound to get a book thrown at you.

Besides that, some of the same tricks that are used in the Warforged hardness idea (which I cannot for the life of me find right now... Rubik?) would feasibly be usable on a Psicrystal.

[Rubik]

On to other things, technically, with the wording of the Hardening spell there isn't anything saying you can't cast it multiple times on the same object and increasing it's hardness each time. That's super cheesy and bound to get a book thrown at you.Hardening is Permanent, rather than Instantaneous. Stacking rules, and so on. Matter Manipulation, however, IS Instantaneous, so it WILL work.


Besides that, some of the same tricks that are used in the Warforged hardness idea (which I cannot for the life of me find right now... Rubik?) would feasibly be usable on a Psicrystal.http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863


Warning: Diamonds are Forever (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10123837&postcount=141) has a potential problem: "all the abilities you possessed when astral seed was manifested" - the keystone of the trick via Astral Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm) to make things stick - could potentially also include the remaining duration on things. So conceivably, you Fusion, Astral Seed, suicide, rebuild yourself, and a little while later, the Fusion expires, leaving you as you were (one level lower) before you started this whole mess.Well, Astral Seed is Instantaneous, and it auto-copies your body's status, including form and function. Say, Metamorphosis into a choker, then manifest Astral Seed. You will be a choker when you come back, even if you were human before. You won't have the Su abilities (unless you took Assume Supernatural Ability for it), and you won't have special qualities, but you've got everything Metamorphosis will give you.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, Astral Seed is Instantaneous, and it auto-copies your body's status, including form and function. Say, Metamorphosis into a choker, then manifest Astral Seed. You will be a choker when you come back, even if you were human before. You won't have the Su abilities (unless you took Assume Supernatural Ability for it), and you won't have special qualities, but you've got everything Metamorphosis will give you.
That is the optimizer's stance, yes. However:

In what sense is the remaining duration on a given effect *not* part of your abilities at the time you manifested Astral Seed? You turn into a Choker, finish manifesting Astral Seed when you've still got 5 minutes and 3 rounds left on the Greater Metamorphosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosisGreater.htm), then kill yourself. You wake up in your fake psicrystal, spend your ten days building yourself a new body, and when you're a complete Choker, the 5 minutes and 3 rounds continues counting down - after which, you turn back into your original self (minus a level).

[Phelix-Mu]

And, while the material hp granted by matter manipulation can't benefit psicrystals, I would like to point out the following bit of fun/poor writing:


When hardness increases, the object (or portion of an object) gains 3 hit points per inch of thickness for every point of increased hardness. When hardness decreases, the object (or portion of an object) loses 2 hit points per inch of thickness for every point of decreased hardness (to a minimum of 1 hit point per inch of thickness).

Well, I see some asymmetrical math here. Repeated iterations of raising and then lowering the hardness of an object can be used to nice effect.

Raise hardness by 3, gain 9hp/inch of thickness.
Drop hardness by 3, lose 6hp/inch of thickness. Net gain: 3hp/inch.
Raise by 3, gain 9
Drop by 3, lose 6. Net gain 3.

The biggest adjustment is a gain of 5hp/inch of thickness per iteration.

Thought bottle required unless the DM is handing out free xp, using power components, or otherwise substituting other things for xp costs.

[Phelix-Mu]

Any more psicrystal tips?

[Vedhin]

You can give the Psicrystal Hidden Talent and use the rules for manifesting a power from another's powers known to get a weaker Expanded Knowledge at level 1. Out of combat powers would be best though.

[Chronos]

Matter Manipulation is instantaneous, but it also says that "You can increase or decrease an object’s hardness by up to 5 from its original hardness.". So you could increase steel from 10 to 15, or adamantine from 20 to 25, but no further.

[Rubik]

Matter Manipulation is instantaneous, but it also says that "You can increase or decrease an object’s hardness by up to 5 from its original hardness.". So you could increase steel from 10 to 15, or adamantine from 20 to 25, but no further.That would be per manifestation. Since such manifestations are instantaneous, they ought to stack, since the magic is no longer in effect. It'd be like manifesting the power on a steel alloy whose hardness has been improved by adamantine. Just because the hardness is higher than it would be doesn't mean the power wouldn't work on it just as well.

[Maginomicon]

The "Psicrystal Substitutions" article in Dragon Magazine #345 page 88 is filled with enhancements to psicrystals and it's 3.5 material.

[Rubik]

Give your psicrystal a psychoactive skin of proteus. You would not believe how useful it can be. Suddenly your psicrystal can turn into anything from a flanking partner to a mount to a hand-held weapon. Turn it into an Item Familiar or Ancestral Relic, and you get even more from it.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hardening was made a power in Secrets of Sarlona. If you are able to augment it as listed to a higher point than a previous manifesting, the newer version supersedes the original, right?

[Vedhin]

Yes, see here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#sameEffectMorethanOncein DifferentStrengths)

[Aegis013]

I like to give my Psicrystals Vow of Poverty. I'm not going to give it equipment anyway, so the static bonuses only help.

Also, for those who mentioned Hidden Talent, your Psicrystal can't manifest the power it learns from Hidden Talent as it has a Charisma score of 10, but requires a Charisma score of 11. Vow of Poverty corrects this.

Edit: If you want DMGs thrown at you endlessly, give your Psicrystal Hidden Talent and Psicrystal Affinity. Then your Psicrystal's Psicrystal Hidden Talent and Psicrystal Affinity...

[Rubik]

I like to give my Psicrystals Vow of Poverty. I'm not going to give it equipment anyway, so the static bonuses only help. Psychoactive skin of proteus is better. I guess this works until you can manage one.


Also, for those who mentioned Hidden Talent, your Psicrystal can't manifest the power it learns from Hidden Talent as it has a Charisma score of 10, but requires a Charisma score of 11. Vow of Poverty corrects this.+1 Charisma at level 4.


Edit: If you want DMGs thrown at you endlessly, give your Psicrystal Hidden Talent and Psicrystal Affinity. Then your Psicrystal's Psicrystal Hidden Talent and Psicrystal Affinity...Doesn't work. It's not an actual manifester level and says so explicitly.

[Aegis013]

Psychoactive skin of proteus is better. I guess this works until you can manage one.

+1 Charisma at level 4.

Doesn't work. It's not an actual manifester level and says so explicitly.

Right you are on all of it, oh well. The Vow of Poverty thing is still nice if you don't want to pay gold for equipment for your psicrystal.

[Vedhin]

I like to give my Psicrystals Vow of Poverty. I'm not going to give it equipment anyway, so the static bonuses only help.

Also, for those who mentioned Hidden Talent, your Psicrystal can't manifest the power it learns from Hidden Talent as it has a Charisma score of 10, but requires a Charisma score of 11. Vow of Poverty corrects this.

Well, I mentioned using these rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown) to effectively get an extra power known from a Hidden Talent Psicrystal.

And VoP is debateable. There are plenty of things you could give a Psicrystal, like rings, for example.

Edit: Hey, would combining Hidden Talent with a Host feat from Complete Psionic qualify your Psicrystal for Expanded Knowledge? Host feats give a ML, and Hidden Talent gives a Power Known.

[Piggy Knowles]

It's not much of a trick, but I try to give any psicrystal I can Martial Study (White Raven Tactics).

[Phelix-Mu]

Is there a rule for determining initiative for familiars and psicrystals? I mainly ask in light of the White Raven Tactics concept. Can WRT still be useful if the psicrystal is acting on the same initiative count as its master? I lack familiarity with WRT is what this boils down to.

[Piggy Knowles]

Is there a rule for determining initiative for familiars and psicrystals? I mainly ask in light of the White Raven Tactics concept. Can WRT still be useful if the psicrystal is acting on the same initiative count as its master? I lack familiarity with WRT is what this boils down to.

Even if it acts on the same initiative count as you, that still works, because WRT sets one ally's initiative count to your initiative -1. So, if I act on initiative 20, my psicrystal shares my initiative count, then uses WRT, it means I will then act again on initiative 19.

If this gets vetoed by DM, it's still handy for the rest of the party.

EDIT: To clarify, since you mention being unfamiliar with WRT, it basically does this...

1. Set one ally within ten feet's initiative count to initiative -1.
2. If they have not yet acted this round, they go on the new initiative count, but don't get to act again.
3. If they HAVE acted this round, they can act again.
4. If this new initiative equals their current initiative count, it has no effect.
5. Your ally retains this new initiative count for the remainder of combat.

[Vedhin]

Psicrystals, Familiars, and other intelligent things get their own Initiative, just like cohorts.

[Phelix-Mu]

Even if it acts on the same initiative count as you, that still works, because WRT sets one ally's initiative count to your initiative -1. So, if I act on initiative 20, my psicrystal shares my initiative count, then uses WRT, it means I will then act again on initiative 19.

If this gets vetoed by DM, it's still handy for the rest of the party.

EDIT: To clarify, since you mention being unfamiliar with WRT, it basically does this...

1. Set one ally within ten feet's initiative count to initiative -1.
2. If they have not yet acted this round, they go on the new initiative count, but don't get to act again.
3. If they HAVE acted this round, they can act again.
4. If this new initiative equals their current initiative count, it has no effect.
5. Your ally retains this new initiative count for the remainder of combat.

Thanks for clarifying this.

[Vedhin]

Hey, something occured to me. If a psicrystal had Hidden Talent, a Host feat, Psionic Talent, sufficient Hit Dice, and used the rules for manifesting an unkown power from anothers power known (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown) it would be able to manifest a second level power. RAW, would it then qualify for the Expanded Knowledge feat?