Will V remember it?

[martianmister]

We know mortals can't remember (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) their time on afterlife. Will V remember what happened at IFCC's office?

[Roland Itiative]

I imagine he will, because he isn't exactly dead, so the rules don't necessarily are the same (that evil adventuring party certainly would remember their adventure, for example).

But I guess forgetting everything would make it possible for him to actually be caught by surprise when the IFCC comes to collect the other two debts, instead of preparing some contingency plan or telling the Order about this.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm guessing no. That way the IFCC can give more hints (to the readers) about their scheme. V calls them fools for tipping their hands, only for them to mock V about how s/he will forget about all this as s/he's teleporting back to the mortal plane.

Then V and Blackwing will just assume they failed at warning Roy, the destruction knocked them out, but the tunnel was structurally designed in case of such an event and that's how they survived. Assuming Blackwing lives.

[Mollez]

Nah, I think it'll turn out to be one of those things where--like leaving the Oracle's house (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)--getting in and out by unconventional means can get around the memory stuff. I mean, Roy didn't forget all about heaven when he was a ghost, right? Because he didn't leave the "right" way, with the limo and the Resurrection.

[Kornaki]

Nah, I think it'll turn out to be one of those things where--like leaving the Oracle's house (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)--getting in and out by unconventional means can get around the memory stuff. I mean, Roy didn't forget all about heaven when he was a ghost, right? Because he didn't leave the "right" way, with the limo and the Resurrection.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html

He doesn't remember anything at all about being in heaven except for this vague idea of a sword move (which he doesn't remember specifically learning there). All he remembers is what happened in the waiting room area

[Throknor]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html

He doesn't remember anything at all about being in heaven except for this vague idea of a sword move (which he doesn't remember specifically learning there). All he remembers is what happened in the waiting room area


"And what I saw as I was floating around down here."

Still, if V doesn't remember he'll easily pass it off as getting knocked out in the blast and being lucky to survive it. If he somehow works out it was ~20 minutes I'd actually expect blackwing to put it together first.

[Rack]

I'd assume not, this deal is currently looking pretty damn poor on the IFCCs side as is, if V is given an opportunity to back out it's putting that deal into Xanatos Roulette territory.

[Mollez]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html

He doesn't remember anything at all about being in heaven except for this vague idea of a sword move (which he doesn't remember specifically learning there). All he remembers is what happened in the waiting room area

That's sorta my point. :smalltongue:

Leaving the afterlife is like leaving the oracle's house.

If you leave the right way--walking out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html)/being rezzed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)--you don't remember anything right.

If you leave the WRONG way, however--being dismissed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) or teleported (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html)/being a ghost or leaving with some kind of plane-shift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html)--you keep your memories (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html).

(In last link, Roy says, "Even without resurrection, how would people not know about the Afterlife? Someone would just Plane Shift over and look eventually!" This means that if you don't go to the afterlife by conventional means, you can remember what you saw there.)

[Kiraxa]

As mentioned previously, I'd assume V will remember her stay in the IFCC's custody. She's not in afterlife, her soul is just plane shifted and dimensional anchored, it seems.

[factotum]

I'd assume not, this deal is currently looking pretty damn poor on the IFCCs side as is, if V is given an opportunity to back out it's putting that deal into Xanatos Roulette territory.

Assuming V *does* remember about what happened, how does that give him an opportunity to back out of it? The deal was made weeks ago, and there's presumably no get-out clause in the contract--so unless V somehow knows a spell that will block the near divine powers of the IFCC (which is unlikely), all he can do is sit there, knowing they'll be able to take his soul again at any time of their choosing.

The best argument for him forgetting what happened, though, is that he would surely be inspired to tell Roy about the deal he made if he remembered--and I suspect the plot requires that Roy not know about that little detail.

[Klear]

Is it possible that V doesn't remember but Blackwing does? That would be interesting.

[Rack]

Assuming V *does* remember about what happened, how does that give him an opportunity to back out of it? The deal was made weeks ago, and there's presumably no get-out clause in the contract--so unless V somehow knows a spell that will block the near divine powers of the IFCC (which is unlikely), all he can do is sit there, knowing they'll be able to take his soul again at any time of their choosing.

The best argument for him forgetting what happened, though, is that he would surely be inspired to tell Roy about the deal he made if he remembered--and I suspect the plot requires that Roy not know about that little detail.

Not the contract itself, just the opportunity for the IFCC to really benefit from it. They said themselves if V died their plans were for naught, if V walks away from the Order now the result would be largely the same. It wouldn't be reasonable for the IFCC to have a strong handle on what V would do at this time (if they were that composed they wouldn't have let Qarr speak to V necessitating this use in the first place) so for their plans to make sense I'd expect V to need to remain ignorant of their influence.

[thereaper]

Is it possible that V doesn't remember but Blackwing does? That would be interesting.

Given V's character development, it's likely he would trust Blackwing over himself. After all, Blackwing isn't the one who sold his soul.

[Klear]

Given V's character development, it's likely he would trust Blackwing over himself. After all, Blackwing isn't the one who sold his soul.

That's how I figured it. It would allow V to know what happened without the fiends being aware of it. Unless they watched them on their fancy TV at the time.

It would also make it easy for the rest of the OOTS to dismiss the claims. :smallwink:

[thereaper]

You're missing the point. If V believes himself to be a liability, he will leave the Order, whether they want him to or not, simply to force them to find another arcane caster.

The easiest way to avoid this is for V (and Blackwing) to not remember. It also preserves the drama for future events.

[Kiraxa]

You're missing the point. If V believes himself to be a liability, he will leave the Order, whether they want him to or not, simply to force them to find another arcane caster.

The easiest way to avoid this is for V (and Blackwing) to not remember. It also preserves the drama for future events.

Why do people say this? V is now on a redemption kick. If she discusses it with Roy (who she respects greatly for his intellect) there's many possible outcomes. Not just "oh I'm a liability, peace ya'll." Also self sacrifice isn't a huge trait of true neutral.

[VanaGalen]

Roy only didn't remember anything from beyond the gate, his memories from "afterlife antechamber" were intact. Therefore I don't see any reason why V should have the memory wipe, unless the IFCC deliberately perform it on hir soul right before returning V to hir body.
Besides, Sabine is watching the same TV as V and she definitely will remember it when she returns. So there is no reason why V should forget it.

[factotum]

If V believes himself to be a liability, he will leave the Order, whether they want him to or not, simply to force them to find another arcane caster.


I don't see why this logically follows. I've seen nothing in V's personality to date that would suggest he would consider leaving the Order to be the better option--he always prefers to do it himself to prove his own capability, even in situations where things would be better if he hadn't. Familicide and its consequences have probably changed his outlook to an extent, but I doubt it's caused a complete volte-face of his personality!

[Flame of Anor]

Is it possible that V doesn't remember but Blackwing does? That would be interesting.

Not terribly interesting, since V would almost certainly listen to and believe Blackwing.

[Klear]

Not terribly interesting, since V would almost certainly listen to and believe Blackwing.

Yes, but A) it would be a hindrance to the fiends, who would have in this case wanted V to forget it, B) the rest of the order might dismiss V's claims as hallucinations about some bird nobody ever saw.

[AstralFire]

There are spells which can wipe memories as well, and the fiends may have that as an option.

As for "Why V would outright leave the team as opposed to not" - he was willing to just sit there and get killed by (what he thought was) a revenant only a few hours prior, remember? V's sense of self-worth has taken a hell of a beating.

[Throknor]

There are spells which can wipe memories as well, and the fiends may have that as an option.

As for "Why V would outright leave the team as opposed to not" - he was willing to just sit there and get killed by (what he thought was) a revenant only a few hours prior, remember? V's sense of self-worth has taken a hell of a beating.

And that was only a self-punishment for Familicide. He was trying to get Roy to not destroy the gate when the fiends grabbed him. If he comes back knowing the deal also cost him is ability to stop Roy (in more ways than one*) he's not now going to let it slide.

I think he's at a point where he'd talk with at least Haley and then likely Roy before leaving without an explanation. So he might not leave, but I don't think he'll keep it secret.

* One possible interpretation of events places the main reason he wasn't there to stop Roy face to face was from running when confronted with the full knowledge of his slaughter. Guilt has a fun way with deductions.

[thereaper]

Are you trying to argue that V screwing up even more will make him feel less guilty?

Of course he wouldn't leave without giving an explanation (at the very least, telling them about the world in the rift). But no one claimed he would.

[Flame of Anor]

To be fair, giving up responsibility can be a powerful motivator. I'm not saying V will quit--it seems highly, highly unlikely--but, if s/he did, the reason would probably be "I can't stand being relied on anymore."

[coineineagh]

Since the fiends had the right to take possession of his soul, they are the ones controlling the situation. They gave him the customer service talk either because they want him to know, or they know for a fact he won't remember. If Blackwing were to be dismissed by V, and re-summoned after V is returned, there may be a possibility that the bird will remember what V didn't. But the imp was already focused on Blackwing's death in an earlier encounter.

If there is a risk of Blackwing spilling the beans, why would the IFCC tell the two of them anything, and not just summon them into a dark chamber void of information for the duration of the possession? The fiends are savvy with (mis)information, so they won't be telling V & Blackwing anything they don't want them to know. That's what I think.

I guess in rules & storyline it's possible that Blackwing might be able to leak memories to V. But it's clear from Qarr's activities that the fiends have anticipated that Blackwing may be a risk factor, so it would be imprudent of them to talk too much now. They wouldn't forget about a scenario they already foresaw.

Or, does Blackwing pose a different risk? level-headed advice, for example. If so, it might be possible for them to have overlooked Blackwing. Since V can communicate telepathically with his bird, there would be no way for the fiends to know that V knows!!! Oh, let's hope it's that.:smalltongue: