What Should I Do Playground? Appropriate vs Optimal

[unseenmage]

My DM has allowed my 9th level Gestalt Artificer Techsmith/ Cleric to have (Edit: near infinite) infinite money and 5 months of lead in time before adventuring again.

I've almost spent all of that money and both myself and my minions will be equipped as though we were 20th level characters.
I've bought and paid for a Temple with an enchanted room for every crafting feat and every crafting skill; it'll be done in a year. I've bought my own custom Clockwork Tower which is less OP but so enchanted it'll be done in 4 years; it includes (among other things) literal skill monkeys that fly. They succeed automatically at epic skill checks.
And the DM is still fine with this. All of it.

The campaign is admittedly OP to begin with. Ad-hock bonuses abound, dragons are more like forces of nature, the Conan d20 rulebook is thrown in, nearly any sourcebook I want is available, most of the other players whose group I'm joining have countries already and I've already rubbed elbows with The Simbul and at least 1-3 other epic characters. All of the characters and NPCs of the world are Gestalt as well. Sigil is a shopping mall instead of an interplanar Venus Fly Trap.
Oh, and it's in Faerun, pre-Spellplague Faerun IIRC.

I talked him into limiting access to Wish, Gate, and arcane Genesis just this evening. But I'm still leery.

Should I work up a new set of item lists more appropriate for a 9th level character or should I go ahead and buy my own personal army of Advanced Iron Golem (or maybe Shield Guardian) Sacred Guardians???

Thoughts playground? Where do you draw the line of optimization?

(if you're reading this o' great and glorious DM, I'm not b**ching, just trying to wrap my head around it all. :smallwink: )

Edit: Everything I buy outright comes just as is from the books. Other than layering enhancements on weapons and armor I have to research everything else as custom items. Constructs count as Magic items for this (and many other) purpose.

[Kornaki]

to have infinite money...

I've almost spent all of that money

What :smallconfused:

[unseenmage]

What :smallconfused:


The infinite-gold-machine only makes so much money per day. Without building more I've almost spent all of it. I could build more if I wanted to. Up to a point.

If I wanted to I suppose I could even allow the tech to become common knowledge and hire foks to build many many more but I limited myself to just a few.

There were some other things that needed doing in the timespan allotted as well.

[Flickerdart]

Your DM gave a gestalt Artificer/Cleric infinite money. I'm not sure what he expected to happen, but you can probably absolve yourself of any responsibility and go whole hog.

[eggynack]

The infinite-gold-machine only makes so much money per day. Without building more I've almost spent all of it. I could build more if I wanted to. Up to a point.

If I wanted to I suppose I could even allow the tech to become common knowledge and hire foks to build many many more but I limited myself to just a few.

There were some other things that needed doing in the timespan allotted as well.
I don't even know how the economy of this world still exists in that case. If you can, and do, print infinite money, that money is going to be basically worthless in a really short amount of time.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I would try and buy a ring of infinite miracle. To make it less rediculous i would tie it to a deity and any nonstandard miracle would need to be in line with that deity and any miracle wouldn't be granted if it went directly against the deity's purpose.

This ring costs 2,806,000 gp

Then i would see how the DM reacted. If only non-epic items are allowed i would then stock up on trinkets of miracle. An item that grants a one time miracle

This trinket costs 32650 each.

His reaction to either of these suggestions should help indicate what level of optimization he expects.

Edit: I really don't know if i should blue text this or not. Curse me for not knowing what i'm thinking.

[unseenmage]

I don't even know how the economy of this world still exists in that case. If you can, and do, print infinite money, that money is going to be basically worthless in a really short amount of time.

I applied limiters to keep that from happening. My own ideas.
- Custom Items follow the same rules as custom spells replacing SL with CL.
- MIC says can buy 1 item per hour, am buying 1 item per day and using the extra 7 hours of that 8 hour shift to Gather Info and be sure whose pockets I'm lining -OR- Plane Shift to a Planar Metropolis and spend the money there still with a Gather Info check or two to spare.
- Am employing Brokers who employ brokers to buy the really high gp items. No sense getting my hands on something powerful just to have attracted the wrong kind of attention and have it stolen by higher level dudes.

Really just the ability to Teleport and Plane Shift keep the money press from drowning the local economy.
That and the settlement was already a Large City and their wealth limit isn't small. This particular city has a busy port and a nearby trade Route, a recently discovered link to the middle Underdark and an Epic patron NPC.


I would try and buy a ring of infinite miracle. To make it less rediculous i would tie it to a deity and any nonstandard miracle would need to be in line with that deity and any miracle wouldn't be granted if it went directly against the deity's purpose.

This ring costs 2,806,000 gp

Then i would see how the DM reacted. If only non-epic items are allowed i would then stock up on trinkets of miracle. An item that grants a one time miracle

This trinket costs 32650 each.

His reaction to either of these suggestions should help indicate what level of optimization he expects.

The other limiter was only non-epic items. But having as many 200,000gp items as I can buy at 1 item a day with 2 minions capable of speech is still a lot.

[ryu]

Have you considered asking if it's possible to create a personal demiplane with absurdly large dimensions and slow time traits with a portal hidden inside a lead lined (to block sight effects) burlap sack? Best bag of holding ever.

[NichG]

Infinite money with non-epic items is worth a CR bump but at least its a pretty finite CR bump (it felt something like +8 when it happened in a game I ran), and it shrinks as you level. I'd say the thing to do here all depends on what the DM is running - if the game is CR 30, then you'll need these advantages to deal with it as a 9th level character, and even then it may not be enough.

Perhaps the DM is trying to bypass some of the usual complaints about Faerun (the many many godlike NPCs that dot the landscape and overshadow the PCs) by giving the PCs ways to be of comparable influence, if not direct personal power. Its hard to say without knowing more though.

I'd also say that there's a distinction between using these boons and clawing out some extreme-optimization territory of your own. E.g. I think it's far less disruptive to go and use the infinite money machine than it would be to, say, introduce the Locate City/Wightpocalypse bomb. Or Planar Shepherd/action economy cheese, for example.

[unseenmage]

Infinite money with non-epic items is worth a CR bump but at least its a pretty finite CR bump (it felt something like +8 when it happened in a game I ran), and it shrinks as you level. I'd say the thing to do here all depends on what the DM is running - if the game is CR 30, then you'll need these advantages to deal with it as a 9th level character, and even then it may not be enough.

Perhaps the DM is trying to bypass some of the usual complaints about Faerun (the many many godlike NPCs that dot the landscape and overshadow the PCs) by giving the PCs ways to be of comparable influence, if not direct personal power. Its hard to say without knowing more though.

I'd also say that there's a distinction between using these boons and clawing out some extreme-optimization territory of your own. E.g. I think it's far less disruptive to go and use the infinite money machine than it would be to, say, introduce the Locate City/Wightpocalypse bomb. Or Planar Shepherd/action economy cheese, for example.


That... is a very good point. I hadn't considered it in those terms. Thank you.



On another note, just did some quick calculations. Out of the 360 items I have left to buy weapons and armor will take up only 144 of them. includes magic main weapons both melee and ranged, shields, armors, backup weapons, and a lot of hidden blades. (so many wand chambers... :smalleek: )

216 items to go give or take. What non-epic priced Golem/construct would The Playground buy 200 of to stash in Enveloping Pits via the Squeezing rules? (they're constructs, they won't mind.)

[Drachasor]

I don't even know how the economy of this world still exists in that case. If you can, and do, print infinite money, that money is going to be basically worthless in a really short amount of time.

Which is brilliant. Everyone moves to a new currency, and suddenly 10k GOLD of diamond dust is really cheap.

Anyhow, it isn't infinite wealth, just unbounded total INCOME given unlimited time. This is totally different. Actually, anyone with a job has that. We can assume his method pays more.

[unseenmage]

Which is brilliant. Everyone moves to a new currency, and suddenly 10k GOLD of diamond dust is really cheap.

Anyhow, it isn't infinite wealth, just unbounded total INCOME given unlimited time. This is totally different. Actually, anyone with a job has that. We can assume his method pays more.

144,000gp per day per infinite-gold-machine.

I built 3 of them to cover the costs of the strongholds plus extras. Left myself just enough time for some other crafting that needed done.
Even accounted for time at the end of the 5 months to deconstruct 2 of them back into Craft xp.

[NeoPhoenix0]

That... is a very good point. I hadn't considered it in those terms. Thank you.



On another note, just did some quick calculations. Out of the 360 items I have left to buy weapons and armor will take up only 144 of them. includes magic main weapons both melee and ranged, shields, armors, backup weapons, and a lot of hidden blades. (so many wand chambers... :smalleek: )

216 items to go give or take. What non-epic priced Golem/construct would The Playground buy 200 of to stash in Enveloping Pits via the Squeezing rules? (they're constructs, they won't mind.)

I know of a non-epic priced construct, but it might be technically epic. Also it is extremely optimized. I'm also not familiar enough to know if it is fully rules legal. It might be but I don't know. The construct in question can be found with the following google search: giantitp mecha bunnies

It should be the first result. Again i don't know if I should use blue text. maybe that's a sign that i need sleep.

[unseenmage]

I know of a non-epic priced construct, but it might be technically epic. Also it is extremely optimized. I'm also not familiar enough to know if it is fully rules legal. It might be but I don't know. The construct in question can be found with the following google search: giantitp mecha bunnies

It should be the first result. Again i don't know if I should use blue text. maybe that's a sign that i need sleep.

I have read of said construct. I'm afraid it would a) break my poor DM's brain and b) fall under the Custom Magic Item creation caveat limiter I forgot to put in the OP. No outright buying of Custom Items/Constructs.
Those I have to research and build myself. or pay someone else to. And I'm not sure if I want the DM's NPCs knowing how to research and build the bunnies of doom.

[Drachasor]

I would make a ton of simulacrums.

[eggynack]

I applied limiters to keep that from happening. My own ideas.
- Custom Items follow the same rules as custom spells replacing SL with CL.
- MIC says can buy 1 item per hour, am buying 1 item per day and using the extra 7 hours of that 8 hour shift to Gather Info and be sure whose pockets I'm lining -OR- Plane Shift to a Planar Metropolis and spend the money there still with a Gather Info check or two to spare.
- Am employing Brokers who employ brokers to buy the really high gp items. No sense getting my hands on something powerful just to have attracted the wrong kind of attention and have it stolen by higher level dudes.

Really just the ability to Teleport and Plane Shift keep the money press from drowning the local economy.
That and the settlement was already a Large City and their wealth limit isn't small. This particular city has a busy port and a nearby trade Route, a recently discovered link to the middle Underdark and an Epic patron NPC.

None of this seems that relevant. GP represents a universal economy, so no matter where you spend it, the economy is still being destabilized. The only issue is the scale. Giving your money to exalted vendors, and employing meta-brokers has very little to no impact on the size of your impact on the economy. Plane shift might come a little closer to having an effect. In any case, handing control of the money supply to an artificer seems like it will lead to bad times. I don't know exactly when the global currency would become destabilized, but the likely lack of a central global bank means that it wouldn't be that slow of a thing. I mean, you're getting like 433,430 GP a day, and one GP is worth about 100 dollars by my understanding. This is a problematic thing.

[Drachasor]

None of this seems that relevant. GP represents a universal economy, so no matter where you spend it, the economy is still being destabilized. The only issue is the scale. Giving your money to exalted vendors, and employing meta-brokers has very little to no impact on the size of your impact on the economy. Plane shift might come a little closer to having an effect. In any case, handing control of the money supply to an artificer seems like it will lead to bad times. I don't know exactly when the global currency would become destabilized, but the likely lack of a central global bank means that it wouldn't be that slow of a thing. I mean, you're getting like 433,430 GP a day, and one GP is worth about 100 dollars by my understanding. This is a problematic thing.

Like I said, it is only beneficial. When you switch to the new economy the costs for making anything are waaaaaay less. They are tied to GP afterall. : )

[unseenmage]

None of this seems that relevant. GP represents a universal economy, so no matter where you spend it, the economy is still being destabilized. The only issue is the scale. Giving your money to exalted vendors, and employing meta-brokers has very little to no impact on the size of your impact on the economy. Plane shift might come a little closer to having an effect. In any case, handing control of the money supply to an artificer seems like it will lead to bad times. I don't know exactly when the global currency would become destabilized, but the likely lack of a central global bank means that it wouldn't be that slow of a thing. I mean, you're getting like 433,430 GP a day, and one GP is worth about 100 dollars by my understanding. This is a problematic thing.

Mind you, this is also a magical game world where money doesn't always stay money. Golems are made, gold gets eaten by ravenous swarms of treasure eating beetles, dragons use it as a bed, etc etc.

There are a lot of ways for wealth to be removed from circulation. Where do you think all that treasure the endless stream of adventurers and thieves guilds get it from.

It's also a multiverse. Sure there may be a few interconnected financial systems but a lot of the peoples a random adventurer, especially one hiring local middlemen to do his business for him, could trade with won't give one another the time of day, let alone suffer to trade with each other.

Not to mention the product I'm selling to make all this money is a consumable. I apologize for using the term "infinite". I understand how it could have been misleading.
But the way the rules are put together adventurers can buy one magic item per hour in a Planar Metropolis at 200,000gp per item and they'll barely dent the wealth limits of that population center. And less gold changes hands when buying than when selling according to the limits as they're written. (MIC231 Buying and Selling Magic Items)

[eggynack]

Like I said, it is only beneficial. When you switch to the new economy the costs for making anything are waaaaaay less. They are tied to GP afterall. : )
Eh, I guess. I don't know if it'd work like that though. I mean, how long is it going to take an approximately medieval planet to completely alter their global currency? Moreover, how long is it going to take them to change that currency, when that currency also has intrinsic value outside of its role as currency? Tippy had the right idea when he came up with those wish machines that created impossible to counterfeit money , but outside of a high optimization world with an economy that can correct itself quickly, this problem seems like it'd take awhile to correct. I can easily see the world government's response as less, "Change the currency," and more, "Hurl this artificer into a demiplane from which there is no escape, and make him take his counterfeiting machines, and enough gold to stabilize the economy, with him." That actually sounds like a cool premise for a campaign, with the government constantly trying to kill the player, and him using his infinite resources to evade capture.

[eggynack]

Not to mention the product I'm selling to make all this money is a consumable. I apologize for using the term "infinite". I understand how it could have been misleading.
Wait, you're not making money? Making money is the problem, not making a consumable. This seems like it'd be a lot less harmful to the global economy, and a lot more harmful to you. What are you making, exactly?

[unseenmage]

"Hurl this artificer into a demiplane from which there is no escape, and make him take his counterfeiting machines, and enough gold to stabilize the economy, with him." That actually sounds like a cool premise for a campaign, with the government constantly trying to kill the player, and him using his infinite resources to evade capture.

When I asked about an Inevitable for wealth some time ago one of the responses i got was that Pit Fiends would love a character capable of doing such a thing. In a campaign like that Pit Fiends might be one of said Artificer's best buddies.


Wait, you're not making money? Making money is the problem, not making a consumable. This seems like it'd be a lot less harmful to the global economy, and a lot more harmful to you. What are you making, exactly?

True Neutral dude, and he's selling Ambrosia from a Spell Turret. 200gp per dose, half if i spend an hr/day selling one dose. 1/4 if I sell it in bulk.
SO 144,000gp per day. uses Ring Gates, Planar Ring Gates, Enveloping Pit(s) to get it where it needs to be.

The craft room Temple I mentioned is going to have one of these Turrets mounted to the ceiling. It will target a random person it hasn't already targeted every 5 rounds until it runs out of new targets and starts over.
It'll be operational for the public for 8 hours every day and it will be rotated up to the Temple's craft rooms for 8 hours. Then 8 hours of downtime.

And I will not control the Temple. it's my gift to this southern city in The Simbul's domain.


Whether it starts a war, or supercharges the city in question I'm not real concerned about. These folks already had their entire city pulled down into the underdark and most of their population kidnapped before the city was returned to the surface. They deserve some magical happiness/craft xp/free gold.

[Jack_Simth]

Thoughts playground? Where do you draw the line of optimization?

As always, you want to optimize to a level appropriate to the specific game. You're not going to get direct help in gauging that aspect from people not involved in the specific game. Indirect help, however, is possible. See, the biggest barrier to determining what level to go with is the difficulties involved in communicating that specifically. That, we can help with.

Are you familiar with the Pit Fiend Offence (PFO) and Pit Fiend Defence (PFD) method of communicating power levels?
Pit Fiend Offence: If the Pit Fiend (or replacement well-known monster appropriate to the level) just sort of sits there and takes it (aka, they don't take actions), how many (on average) can your character take down in ten rounds?
Pit Fiend Defence: If your character just sort of sits there and takes it, how many pit fiends (or replacement well-known monster appropriate to the level) does it take to (on average) take your character down in one round?

This system for communicating optimization has flaws (it can't well account for the optimization of a party buff based character, to name one), but it gives you a place to start, and something noticeably more specific than simply saying "high optimization", "low optimization", "medium optimization", etcetera.

[Jett Midknight]

My personal favorite? Make every item you own an Intelligent Item. Then make the goals of the items something very vague that is in line with you own personal goal. If you very the powers enough you basically have all the powers of a normal set of magic items, as well as having basically unlimited spells and other such abilities.

[Forrestfire]

The first thing I thought of was this quote I saw in a sig:


Nah, the material component of that spell is a Mindraped Ice Assassin of a Rudimentary Intelligence Shadesteel Golem with a Craft Contingent Shapechange on it. Not worth the trouble.


If you want to get really over the top, make self-resetting traps of Ice Assassin and Mindrape (for the newly created ice assassin) and shove some monsters in there :smalltongue:

[TheSunKing]

Edit: I really don't know if i should blue text this or not. Curse me for not knowing what i'm thinking.

I'd say purple.

With infinite money you should buy every single bucket in the world. Offer anyone that makes more buckets 1000gp per bucket. Deprive the world of them! (This would be funnier with doors. No common person house would have a door. 1000gp is hard to pass up!)

[unseenmage]

As always, you want to optimize to a level appropriate to the specific game. You're not going to get direct help in gauging that aspect from people not involved in the specific game. Indirect help, however, is possible. See, the biggest barrier to determining what level to go with is the difficulties involved in communicating that specifically. That, we can help with.

Are you familiar with the Pit Fiend Offence (PFO) and Pit Fiend Defence (PFD) method of communicating power levels?
Pit Fiend Offence: If the Pit Fiend (or replacement well-known monster appropriate to the level) just sort of sits there and takes it (aka, they don't take actions), how many (on average) can your character take down in ten rounds?
Pit Fiend Defence: If your character just sort of sits there and takes it, how many pit fiends (or replacement well-known monster appropriate to the level) does it take to (on average) take your character down in one round?

This system for communicating optimization has flaws (it can't well account for the optimization of a party buff based character, to name one), but it gives you a place to start, and something noticeably more specific than simply saying "high optimization", "low optimization", "medium optimization", etcetera.

Thank you, this concept should prove quite useful. I tend to be a pretty low-op kind of player generally. Much more skilled at using what I have than knowing what to use. I will be mulling this over.


My personal favorite? Make every item you own an Intelligent Item. Then make the goals of the items something very vague that is in line with you own personal goal. If you very the powers enough you basically have all the powers of a normal set of magic items, as well as having basically unlimited spells and other such abilities.

IIRC the DMG actually has a line of text that says if you have more than one Int Magic Item they will fight over you and seek to suborn one another out of some sort of arcane jealousy.
It was listed as more of a 'bad idea' than a rule.
But it's best not to poke RAI with a stick when you can avoid it.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I'd say purple.

Of course, it's all so clear now. Then again when i posted those two posts I was on 40 hours without sleep.