Prejudiced Paladin?

[Yakhgee]

Hello GitP forum! I'm long time lurker, first time poster.

I am just starting up an adventure with my friends. It takes place in a human city built on the ruins of an older elven one. One of my friends plans to play an elf determined to restore the city to its former glory and place the elves as the ruling body once again. We also discussed the possibility of this character being a paladin.

I find the concept very interesting, balancing adherence to justice against racial/cultural fanaticism. However, I am unsure on how far I should let him act without repercussions. What would make him break the paladin code?

[bot]

Hello GitP forum! I'm long time lurker, first time poster.

I am just starting up an adventure with my friends. It takes place in a human city built on the ruins of an older elven one. One of my friends plans to play an elf determined to restore the city to its former glory and place the elves as the ruling body once again. We also discussed the possibility of this character being a paladin.

I find the concept very interesting, balancing adherence to justice against racial/cultural fanaticism. However, I am unsure on how far I should let him act without repercussions. What would make him break the paladin code?

Welcome, though Paladin code of conduct questions are mostly frowned upon I believe :)

Well he can be rude against humans sure, np - but i personally wouldn't allow a paladin to attack humans or destabilize the city, simply because he feels the place belongs to elves... seems more suited for a druid or ranger conduct.

[Perseus]

Welcome, though Paladin code of conduct questions are mostly frowned upon I believe :)

Well he can be rude against humans sure, np - but i personally wouldn't allow a paladin to attack humans or destabilize the city, simply because he feels the place belongs to elves... seems more suited for a druid or ranger conduct.

Y'all need to play a Paladin of communism... Gotta take down those evil capitalist markets :p then he would be able to destabilize the city.

[Giegue]

De-stabalizing a city, however, is certanily not lawful unless he intends to de-stabalize it by gaining some form of influence in the city and using the system to destroy the system. In that case, the act would be lawful but also most likely evil due to the kind of acts one would need to commit in such a venture. Thus, a typical lawful good paladin would not fit. Now a Paladin of freedom could certainly topple a city(unlike their LG counterparts) but even then Paladin of Freedom does not fit the character concept you have at all because a Paladin of freedom would de-stabalize a city to end tyranny and liberate said city's people from unjust oppression.

Toppeling a city and brining it under a new order, for reasons of racial supremicy no less, would ultimatly be an agenda that could range anywhere from lawful evil to netural evil, depending on your character's methodology about how he wants to insitute the regime change. If GREAT care was taken to do it in as humane and shady activity-free a way as possible you could possibly get away with calling him lawful netural or true netural(again, depending on his methodlogy), though that would be dependent on how evil your group feels racisim is on the good-evil axis. However, justifying such an agenda on a good character is nigh-impossible in the way he seems to want to do it. If he wants to be good he should most likely try to work with the humans to give elves a more active role in politics rather then try and institute forced regime change.

So my advice? Depending on this guy's methodolgy he could be at best a Paladin of Tyranny or if he dosen't like that a cleric or crusader. Honestly, I'd personally go with crusader. A crusader has all the flavor of the Paladin without the aligenment restrictions and pre-written code(He is certainly free to homebrew his own code if he wished, and doing so would be, IMO, totally in line with the class) and also is a flat out better class then paladin. Cleric is also a good class for playing a "Paladin" with no levels in the actual Paladin class, but may be more 'caster-y" then the player wants, which is why I mention the option of Crusader. Both work, however, and if your group bans TOB then Cleric is most likely your best bet if your player dosen't want to have lawful evil on his character sheet.

So my advice? If TOB is not banned, show him the Crusader. If TOB is banned, explain how a cleric can be made to look/function a lot like a Paladin if built that way and also, if he's willing to make his character evil/the group agrees his agenda would be on the dark side of the good-evil axis, show him Paladin of Tyranny.

Thats just my two cents, take it for what you will.

[The Fury]

If he's trying to remove otherwise good leaders from office because of race, that's probably not good. If he's displacing the human population or turning them into an underclass so the elves can regain their "rightful" place, that's definitely bad.
If he's willing to compromise with the human leaders of the city so that elves can take a more active role in the local government, that seems better.

[BowStreetRunner]

It's classic Richard vs Saladin, actually. Paladins are certainly not immune to racism, but being predisposed against a culture does not excuse any direct violation of the code. He may only do so grudgingly, but he still must uphold the ideals of a paladin when dealing with other races.

[Giegue]

While that is true, the OP expressed that this character desired regime change, which I assume would be forced since nothing in the OP has lead me to believe the human leaders are willing to abducate their position willingly after a heartfelt speech or two. Thus, while a typical LG Paladin can be racist, his code would specificly bar him from acting on his racist tendencies nine times out of ten, and forcing regime change in a city on the pretext of racism would be a gross violation of said code and most likely would result in him falling if he persuded such an agenda. Of course, if he's ok with playing a fallen Paladin and seeks the RP of such a character, thats one thing. Heck, a paladin who starts out all LG but slowly falls to his own racism and then takes levels of blackguard, becomming a biggoted tyrant and mockery of what he once was is a very compelling plot and would be interesting to see played out. However, I don't think the player wants to go that direction, though I could be wrong.

Thus, since paladin and not fallen paladin/blackguard was mentioned by the OP, I am going to assume the player dosen't want to purposly play a fallen paladin for RP, and therefore, the best options for him would be to play a Crusader, Cleric or if he MUST have Paladin written on his character sheet somewhere, Paladin of Tyranny. However, if the player would want to go the fallen paladin/blackguard route, the OP is free to inform us.

[Yakhgee]

Welcome, though Paladin code of conduct questions are mostly frowned upon I believe :)

Oh, I did not know that :o

I've always loved the paladin class for the flavor the code of cunduct adds, and discussing it (both in-game and otherwise) is great fun!


It's classic Richard vs Saladin, actually. Quite! And a lovely brewing pot for conflict :P


Paladins are certainly not immune to racism, but being predisposed against a culture does not excuse any direct violation of the code. He may only do so grudgingly, but he still must uphold the ideals of a paladin when dealing with other races.


Of course, if he's ok with playing a fallen Paladin and seeks the RP of such a character, thats one thing. Heck, a paladin who starts out all LG but slowly falls to his own racism and then takes levels of blackguard, becomming a biggoted tyrant and mockery of what he once was is a very compelling plot and would be interesting to see played out. However, I don't think the player wants to go that direction, though I could be wrong.

Both me and the player in question are flexible enough. He just presented the idea and I tried to make it work, oh well. I think I will pitch the idea of a Champion of Corellon. Paladin-flavored but certainly pro-elven.

[ahenobarbi]

There'a an excellent Paladin ACF for that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofTyrannyClassF eatures) :smallamused:

[ArcturusV]

As far as I can see it, it's not a problem. Remember that Rascism is basically a trait of the Lawful Alignment in game. So that fits and makes sense. Good requires a respect for life and such. But it doesn't say ALL life. Just lives beyond your own really. So picking all elves, perfectly fine.

There's nothing really in the Paladin Code that precludes that. Sure, you won't go on a wanton murder spree, etc. But Paladins are charged to act say, honorably. If you saw no honor in helping those who have no honor in your holy book? No problem there.

I think the good example you might want to think of is something like Winter Court Faeries, Unseelie, etc. They tend to have a lot of "Paladin" traits. Cannot ever lie, for example. But they also clearly have no respect for "lesser" life like humans. Nor does anyone think they're overly nice. But no one really says "Well they're EVIL!" unless they take a knee jerk "All things are split into Good and Evil teams" stance, or side with the Summer Court. Even though both are needed and both serve good ends.

[Drachasor]

You can be racist and a Paladin. You just have to remember you are GOOD too. That means a respect for the dignity of life, wanting to preserve life, help others, etc.

Such an Elf Paladin might feel humans are alright for a species. He might personally like humans. He just believes they are inferior to Elves. Heck, he has some backing for that. Humans die at a tragically young age -- just about the time an Elf might become an adult! Humans are brash, short-sighted, and largely clumsy. They lack the perspective that living longer provides. It isn't that they shouldn't be free or have good lives...it's just that they aren't well-suited to ruling. Age brings wisdom, and humans lack it. Sad but true.

That said, humans ARE deserving of life and the wonders it brings. Cruelty, slavery, and the like against humans IS disgusting and must be stopped at every turn. Humans are above animals after all, and you wouldn't let an animal be mistreated. Humans aren't inherently evil either or even lean that way...they're just rather like children -- and children can be bright and even have good points, but that doesn't mean they aren't kids! As any wise adult would know, you should listen to children and take their concerns seriously -- they are people too. That doesn't mean you should forget that can lack perspective and wisdom. In the end you should judge what they say on its own merits...and just because they might often be wrong doesn't mean you should assume anything they say will be wrong.

Naturally such a character would not feel humans are the best choice to rule a city. That doesn't mean he's going to tear down the walls and kill a bunch of people to put the Elves back on top. He's an Elf, and that means he has time to slowly work on things. He's a Paladin, and that means he has standards of behavior. Setting an example of Elven might and wisdom while working the political angle to get Elves on the council...and eventually the humans will see that the Elves are the better leaders. If a little leverage has to be applied here and there, then that can be done as long as it is done ethically.

Anyhow, something like that would work. You could even have him treat humans as ignorant kids. Nothing in the Paladin code or Lawful Good says you have to respect others (afaik). Generally assuming that humans are just going to mess something up if they get involved in anything complicated should work fine. As long as it isn't overdone to the point of being dishonorable.

[Yakhgee]

-snip-

That's a really nice angle! Especially seeing as the humans conquered the city by less than honorable means. Five centuries have gone by since then and the ruler now has little more than an ancestral link to the original warlord who came, saw and etc.

[BowStreetRunner]

I really like Drachasor's angle on this. It reminds me a great deal of the Vulcans in the Enterprise series, with their obvious racial prejudices toward humans.

[ExtravagantEvil]

Everything he said

I was going to bring up this point, and then I noticed that you did, and for that,
thank you very much for doing the work for me :smalltongue:.

[dascarletm]

Everything said

Great. Exactly what I was thinking when I read the OP. Kudos! :smallbiggrin:

[SethoMarkus]

-snip-

This is exactly what I was going to say, but Drachasor was more elegant than I probably would have managed.

A Paladin can oppose a government if he sees it unjust or unfit to rule. This doesn't mean he declares war on the government, just that he works to shape that government into what he sees as best- brute force is a last resort reserved for clearly evil states. In this case, the best leadership (in the paladin's perspective) would be a ruling council of Elves.

[TheTinyMan]

That's a really nice angle! Especially seeing as the humans conquered the city by less than honorable means. Five centuries have gone by since then and the ruler now has little more than an ancestral link to the original warlord who came, saw and etc.

That adds the potential of viewing the human rules as unjust, and the current regime as an "illegitimate authority." Even a I-follow-laws-all-the-time paladin gets a lot of leeway if they don't acknowledge the administration as legitimate.

Plus...just five centuries? If there are any elves there that were around before the conquering, then this becomes occupation (and probably oppression), to be combated. Liberating the oppressed strikes me as a LG action, personally.

From my point of view, the paladin could treat this the way a human paladin could treat occupation by a foreign nation of a human city....after it's been occupied long enough that it's got as many or more foreign noncombatants as combatants sitting there. Don't hesitate to fight combatants, try to avoid killing if possible, remember that innocents exist and most of the people now profiting from the crime weren't the ones that committed it (but they still shouldn't be allowed to continue profiting from it)... and remember, don't commit Evil acts (and IMO killing a Good character who is willing to fight and kill to oppose your Good cause isn't evil).

I also like Drachasor's perspective on racist paladins. Lawful Good doesn't mean "nice."

[Lord Haart]

Liberating the oppressed strikes me as a LG action, personally.

CG, canonically. That's what paladins of freedom are all about. Because liberals are clearly chaotic and could lose their class abilities if they follow the law too often.

[Blackhawk748]

I second what has been said, in our world racism is Evil as determined by society, but in DnD? not so much, i mean ive seen a paladin basically commit goblin genocide, why didnt he fall? because he just killed them and actual gave them a halfway decent burial, thus the respect for life thing. So you can think Elves are superior, and most Elves do, just dont go around treating everyone else like dirt, you can still be a stuck up prick though, nothing in the code about that (though there probably should be.... lol)


CG, canonically. That's what paladins of freedom are all about. Because liberals are clearly chaotic and could lose their class abilities if they follow the law too often.

and lol

[Yakhgee]

Plus...just five centuries? If there are any elves there that were around before the conquering, then this becomes occupation (and probably oppression), to be combated. Liberating the oppressed strikes me as a LG action, personally.

True, but it's not like they have been living in a uneventful vacuum. The oldest elves are understandably very bitter, and there has been constant tension between the two people.

But on the other hand there has been non-inconsiderable intermingling resulting in quite a few half-elves, as well as a great number of 2nd greater generation quarter/etc-elves.

The human prince is married to one, the offspring of his aunt and one of the younger elven (ex)nobles. The elven community is rather split in their regard for the "squatters".

(Also, to rudely go off-topic a bit; does anyone know if golems HAVE to be made out of unwilling elemental spirits? I was thinking of using some dormant Nimblewrights in the campaign, but I'd prefer them to have been created without coercion.)

[Drachasor]

I'm touched that everyone liked my post so much. Thanks. :smallsmile:


True, but it's not like they have been living in a uneventful vacuum. The oldest elves are understandably very bitter, and there has been constant tension between the two people.

But on the other hand there has been non-inconsiderable intermingling resulting in quite a few half-elves, as well as a great number of 2nd greater generation quarter/etc-elves.

The human prince is married to one, the offspring of his aunt and one of the younger elven (ex)nobles. The elven community is rather split in their regard for the "squatters".

Hmm, interesting. I could see the Racist Elf Paladin (REP) either being disgusted by half-elves or thinking they are a step towards "uplifting" the humans. Or both.


(Also, to rudely go off-topic a bit; does anyone know if golems HAVE to be made out of unwilling elemental spirits? I was thinking of using some dormant Nimblewrights in the campaign, but I'd prefer them to have been created without coercion.)

I'd say that line about Golems is largely just fluff. No one is even clear what that means -- For instance, it isn't clear if "elemental spirit" means something from the elemental planes or something else. So I don't see any reason why it has to be an unwilling spirit or even that you necessarily need a spirit at all. IMHO.

Animate Objects, for instance, can be made permanent and there's no spirit involved.

[BowStreetRunner]

(Also, to rudely go off-topic a bit; does anyone know if golems HAVE to be made out of unwilling elemental spirits? I was thinking of using some dormant Nimblewrights in the campaign, but I'd prefer them to have been created without coercion.)
In the case of a Nimblewright, MM2 states very specifically that "Its animating force is a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Water. The process of creating a nimblewright binds the unwilling spirit to the artificial body and subjects it to the will of the creator." Now, while this makes it clear that the spirit is required and that the process does not require the spirit to be willing, I would not say that the process would necessarily fail just because the spirit was willing. (If it did, that would be the best defense ever for the spirit - just agree to the process and they have to throw you back because now it won't work!)

You might have a storyline something like ROM Spaceknight, where the spirits in the Nimblewrights have volunteered for the duty out of some necessity to protect their home. Maybe their crafter struck a deal with their people that gave him the spirits he needed and they gained something in return.


Hmm, interesting. I could see the Racist Elf Paladin (REP) either being disgusted by half-elves or thinking they are a step towards "uplifting" the humans. Or both.The purity of the elf race should not be tainted by Muggles and Mudbloods! :smallyuk: