[PF] Lycanthrope CR/power?

[rt_tlp]

Howdy guys, question of opinion for anyone who feels like picking it up.

How do you feel about the power level expressed by the lycanthrope "template" in Pathfinder? (see here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lycanthrope) Specifically, notice that it does not mention anything regarding the fact that it's completely possible for a 3rd-level Fighter to have more HP in human form than in animal form.

Personally, I feel the lycanthrope presented in this fashion is a tad weak. A werewolf would stop being a threat to a party around the time they all reach level 2. As one of the archetypical horrors of the night, what is a reasonable way to scale it up to become a reasonable fight at, say, 5th level?

My first thoughts:

Add some Fast healing/Regeneration (not too much, it shouldn't just be bullet spongey)
An animal-specific status effect (wolves get a howl that leave the enemy shaken)


The real challenge is trying to think of ways to make it tougher to fight while keeping the fight dynamic and not just relying on bullet-sponge methods to toughen it up.

Any thoughts?

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Lycanthropes are significantly more dangerous because they get ability score boosts, increased speed or new movement modes, natural armor, DR /silver, and natural attacks (which grant things like free tripping, disease, natural attack routines, etc). Of course, compared to a properly specced and equipped fighter, that's not as offensively impressive as it could be.

The damage reduction alone is an excellent defensive ability, and I'm surprised you've overlooked it. What once took two or three hits to cut down suddenly takes five or six. Silver weapons already deal less damage, and any silver weapons the party carries are likely backup weapons that aren't fully enchanted or optimized for their combat capabilities.

You should also note that the template says, "CR +1 or the animal form's CR, whichever is higher". A level 1 weretiger warrior will slaughter an unprepared party of level 1 characters if he pounces on their wizard in the surprise round.

Why do you say that they get less HP in animal form? I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. They get a flat +2 Con in animal form, and they only have to use the animal's Constitution score if it's higher.

[Drothmal]

You should also note that the template says, "CR +1 or the animal form's CR, whichever is higher". A level 1 weretiger warrior will slaughter an unprepared party of level 1 characters if he pounces on their wizard in the surprise round.

+1

And as you go up in level, you can find an appropriate animal with "low" enough CR that you are always at the CR+1, exponentially getting better and better stats for only a CR+1

Werewolf is too weak? try to use Dire wolf as base animal, and add it to a CR2 humanoid and have a completely bonkers CR3 enemy.

Weretiger+Twf barbarian (base CR = 3)= high mobility + pounce + multiple attacks = dead caster in round 1

Not enough? Use Dire Tiger on a lvl 7 barbarian and enjoy the 31 STR when raging (27 from the animal, +4 for rage, add items to increase further).

Basically, don't change the template: Change the base animal so it's always CR+1 with respect to the humanoid, and enjoy your player's looks of terror.

[rt_tlp]

So my overtiredness yesterday was ridiculous. That was perhaps the single worst-worded post I've ever written on anything in my life. Please allow me to rephrase my question in a somewhat more reasonable manner.

Unless I'm misinterpreting the rules for lycanthropes, the animal form has the potential to be far weaker than the human form at levels exceeding, say, 6. If I take a wolf as an example, the upgraded form of that being a Dire Wolf (CR 3), let's look at the situation.

You have a 5th level lycanthrope human-form fighter. CR 4. Debateably a little bit stronger than the Dire Wolf-form in straight combat ability. That said, the stat bonuses for being a lycanthrope will even out the animal form with the human form (DR is irrelevant because they both have equal DR)

Once we get to lv 6, however, the fighter is now CR 5, the Dire Wolf is still CR 3 (still ignoring DR because it's equal), moreover, I imagine the fighter loses the ability to use his feats when he goes into animal form. As the levels advance, this issue only grows more serious.

The only real solution is just making the base animal stronger. My concern is that I feel like the way the lycanthrope is made, the "scary" part of a lycanthrope (becoming an animal) is quickly less intimidating than the human form in terms of all-around combat ability.

[Starbuck_II]

Once we get to lv 6, however, the fighter is now CR 5, the Dire Wolf is still CR 3 (still ignoring DR because it's equal), moreover, I imagine the fighter loses the ability to use his feats when he goes into animal form. As the levels advance, this issue only grows more serious.

Nope, he keeps them. Remember Fighters in PF can change feats.
So he switches WF Sword to WF Bite or Claws.

"Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level"

So that Fighter as soon as he knows about his curse can start gearing up his feats for the wolf.
Plus, there are many feats that work regardless of form like Power Attack, Cleave, etc.
Remember the werewolf has a hybrid form (so he can use the sword). Werewolf don't all fight in animal form.

In fact, let us try an example of an not yet afflicted Werewolf:
Flip Flippagan 3rd level Fighter Humanoid (human) CR 2
HP 27 (21+6) ; Speed 30 ft
AC: 22 (10+ 3 Dex +1 Dodge+ 7 +1 Breastplate +1 Deflect)
+1 Longsword Hit +9 (1d8+5) or PA +8 (1d8+7)
Feat: Power Attack, Dodge, WF Longsword
Str 18 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 9 Cha 7 (15 PB)
Saves: Fort + 5/Reflex +4/Will + 0 (vs Fear +1)
Dual Talent (instead of Bonus feat/Skilled), Armor Training
Skills: Acrobatics +1 (+4), Climb +2 (+9), Perception +1 (+0), Swim +2 (+9)
Gear: +1 Ring of Pro,

When Afflicted Human form:
Flip Flippagan 3rd level Fighter Humanoid (human) CR 3
HP 27 (21+6); Speed 30 ft
AC: 22 (10+ 3 Dex +1 Dodge+ 7 +1 Breastplate +1 Deflect)
+1 Longsword Hit +9 (1d8+5) or PA +8 (1d8+7)
Feat: Power Attack, Dodge, WF Longsword
Str 18 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 5 (15 PB)
Saves: Fort + 5/Reflex +4/Will + 1 (vs Fear +2)
Dual Talent (instead of Bonus feat/Skilled), Armor Training, Scent
Skills: Acrobatics +1 (+4), Climb +2 (+9), Perception +1 (+1), Swim +2 (+9)
Gear: +1 Ring of Pro,

When Hybrid:
Flip Flippagan 3rd level Fighter Humanoid (human) CR 3
HP 30 (21+9); Speed 30 ft
AC: 26 (10+ 3 Dex +1 Dodge+ 7 +1 Breastplate +1 Deflect +4 NA)
+1 Longsword Hit +9 (1d8+5) and Bite +3 (1d6+1 plus trip, curse)
or PA +1 Longsword +8 (1d8+7) and Bite + 2 (1d6+3 plus trip, curse)
OR
Bite + 8 (1d6+4 plus trip, curse)
Feat: Power Attack, Dodge, WF Longsword
Str 20 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 5 (15 PB)
Saves: Fort + 5/Reflex +4/Will + 1 (vs Fear +2)
Dual Talent (instead of Bonus feat/Skilled), Armor Training, DR 5/silver, Scent
Skills: Acrobatics +1 (+4), Climb +2 (+9), Perception +1 (+1), Swim +2 (+9)
Gear: +1 Ring of Pro,

[Tanuki Tales]

The Damage Reduction of the Afflicted Lycan begins to become trivial after level 1 and the Natural's begins to become trivial after level 7, just fyi.

Assuming an 18 in Strength, a +2 Strength race, two-handing a 1d10 one hand weapon and enchanting it as WBL allows for just straight enhancement and no further optimization of course, you start getting through that DR even on minimum damage rolls.

But taking advantage of the CR+1 as has been suggested is definitely how to get the most bang for your buck out of the template.

[rt_tlp]

I agree with the posts before this one that the +1 CR "trick" is the best way to get bang for your buck, but allow me to try and break it down so that it can be verified that I'm understanding this properly.

So the most efficient way to build a werewolf to be scary in its animal form is by first taking the highest-possible CR human form, subtract 1, where the upper limit is the CR of the base creature.

So in the case of a Direwolf, the above-mentioned TW Barb lv 2 + Dire Wolf = CR 3 but probably effectively CR 4, which I understand.

My question then, is how do we bump things up past this limit? Is the only answer to make a stronger version of the wolf (let's say arbitrarily CR 6 version) and then have the human form be CR 5?

I think the place where I keep bumping my head is that I'm trying to make the animal form the scariest form, when the hybrid form is almost certainly the best form for a lycanthrope to be in. I guess the only effective answer for "how can I buff the animal form" is to homebrew a higher-CR base creature.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Howdy guys, question of opinion for anyone who feels like picking it up.

How do you feel about the power level expressed by the lycanthrope "template" in Pathfinder? (see here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lycanthrope) Specifically, notice that it does not mention anything regarding the fact that it's completely possible for a 3rd-level Fighter to have more HP in human form than in animal form. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I'm not seeing how a fighter would have more hit points as a human than it would as an animal. There isn't any mention of a change to hit dice.

[rt_tlp]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I'm not seeing how a fighter would have more hit points as a human than it would as an animal. There isn't any mention of a change to hit dice.

I wasn't thinking straight yesterday when I posted that. What I meant to say was that as a human leveled up, the animal would not.

Human fighter lv 7 -> 7d10
Dire Wolf -> 5d8