Invisible Spell - any fixes?

[Cheiromancer]

It seems as if Invisible Spell (Dungeonscape, p. 61) is intended to make spellcasting unobtrusive; the example given in the feat description is of a fireball spell made invisible at the moment of manifestation. However, as the following threads show, the feat is capable of much, much more:

Invisible Spell + Wall of Stone = a permanent nonmagical invisible thing? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189644)
Best Uses For "Invisible Spell" Metamagic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272546)
Invisible Spell feat + Summon Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262656)
Invisible Spell + Transmutation Spells, and other shenanigans (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257223)

There is some doubt whether invisible spell + alter self makes you invisible for the spell duration, or only makes you retain your original appearance. Likewise some interpret the spell as not producing a non-magical, naturally invisible wall of iron, but the consensus seems to be that, RAW, summoned monsters are naturally invisible. Giving a free improved invisibility to all your summoned monsters is clearly excessive.

Rather than banning the feat, can it be ruled to fit more with RAI and in a way to warrant its +0 level adjustment and extremely modest prerequisites (one metamagic feat)?

For example, perhaps the visual manifestation of the spell is eliminated for only one round. That would still allow a fireball to be cast without a telltale flaming pellet and 20 foot burst to indicate the spell going off, and so is compatible with the example. It would also allow you to conjure a wall of fire in the pathway of a charging opponent, but you would have to be careful with your timing. Having monsters being invisible for 1 round after summoning would be a nice boost, but perhaps not overpowered. And so on.

Thoughts?

[Deophaun]

I think RAI, the manifestation needs to be divorced from the effect.

So, it's not affecting the actual stone wall that is created by wall of stone. Instead, it's affecting the cloud of sparkles or whatever that accompanies the creation of the wall.

Looked at this way, invisible spell suddenly makes sense for a +0 metamagic feat, as you don't run into the problems of invisible spell invisibility, or invisible spell fog cloud.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I don't know an invisible wall of fire makes sense to me.

I would start by making the effect of any instantaneous spell visible after one round. That would take care of the wall of stone or iron stuff. Also any spell made permanent becomes visible.

Definately need a rule for summoning.

Edit: might need a rule for creation too.

Or possibly just make a special rule for conjuration, but that might be extreme.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd say that it only applies to instantaneous effects, or the instantaneous portion of the effect.

[Maginomicon]

What I personally have house ruled for it is "This metamagic feat cannot be used on spells which have an “Effect” line, have a personal range, or are based on spells which fit either of the above (such as polymorph)."

[JaronK]

Making Invisible Spell only effect Instantaneous Spells would work, with the note that anything permanently created (such as a Wall of Stone) is visible afterwords. That's basically how it's intended to work, I imagine.

You could add in something that says for all spells there's no trail from the caster to the target regardless of duration.

JaronK

[One Step Two]

I'd like to say a relatively simple fix for it, is that the invisibility lasts for 1 round.

For attacks like fireballs, and lightning bolts, everything is unchanged.

For things like Walls of Stone, it gives them a gimmick of 1 turn to cause confusion, such as a readied casting action vs a charging opponent.
While readying such an action would have the exact same effect (stopping the charge) the invisibility means they have less time to stop, or allows you to see what they do with their action after they face plant into the wall.

I admit, there's still a few odd holes in the spell, ones that come to mind is Glitterdust, but that's where the GM can say, "They're covered in the dust, but you wont see them till the invisibility wears off."
An invisible summon monster would grant invisibility for one turn. For a dedicated summoner, it gives their monsters a nice opening attack, for everyone else, it means their monster gets ignored for the turn it can't do anything after being summoned.

I feel this makes it easier to manage, and can become a double-edged sword for certain spell effects, without making the feat feel worthless.

[JaronK]

That still doesn't tell us what happens when you cast Alter Self or Fly or something like that. One round where you can't see the person has been altered? One round where you can't see that they're flying?

So at the very least you want to say that anything created by the spell is invisible, but transformed things remain visible in all ways.

JaronK

[One Step Two]

That still doesn't tell us what happens when you cast Alter Self or Fly or something like that. One round where you can't see the person has been altered? One round where you can't see that they're flying?

So at the very least you want to say that anything created by the spell is invisible, but transformed things remain visible in all ways.

JaronK

Transmutations continue to be an oddball, but you make a good point.
Well, let's carry forward with the RAW, and apply my 1 round only fix.


You can modify any spell you cast so that it carries no visual manifestation.


At it's core the spell has no visible manifestation. So, fly... well, the caster is still visible, if they had a spell thematics or some such feat, it would be invisible. For things like Alter self, polymorph (and all it's variations) the caster would look the normal for a round before suddenly becoming something else. With things like the Concealed Casting, or the False Theurgy skill trick, you can do some pretty impressive fake-outs, for example;
With Concealed Casting, they will laugh as the wizard charges them, but they realise in horror that he's actually a Minotaur!
False Theurgy, and make them think you just cast mage armor, and next turn one of them turns into a Toad.

[Chronos]

Quoth One Step Two:

...for everyone else, it means their monster gets ignored for the turn it can't do anything after being summoned.
You're thinking of Magic: the Gathering. In D&D, summoned monsters act immediately as soon as they're summoned, even without any optimization. The catch is that most summoning spells have a casting time of one round, so that "as soon as they're summoned" is a round later than when you started casting the spell.

[One Step Two]

You're thinking of Magic: the Gathering. In D&D, summoned monsters act immediately as soon as they're summoned, even without any optimization. The catch is that most summoning spells have a casting time of one round, so that "as soon as they're summoned" is a round later than when you started casting the spell.

Huh. Not MTG actually, but I guess a pseudo houserule? We've always seen it as because Summon Monster is a full-round action, it cant act that turn because your turn ends when it arrives. Well. Good to know.

[lsfreak]

Huh. Not MTG actually, but I guess a pseudo houserule? We've always seen it as because Summon Monster is a full-round action, it cant act that turn because your turn ends when it arrives. Well. Good to know.

You're half-right. Summon Monster line has a cast time of One Round, which means the spell doesn't finish until right before the start of your next turn. Your monster gets to act as soon as it appears, but doesn't appear until your next turn (and you can be interrupted since everyone's going to get to go before you finish).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Transmutations continue to be an oddball, but you make a good point.
Well, let's carry forward with the RAW, and apply my 1 round only fix.


At it's core the spell has no visible manifestation. So, fly... well, the caster is still visible, if they had a spell thematics or some such feat, it would be invisible. For things like Alter self, polymorph (and all it's variations) the caster would look the normal for a round before suddenly becoming something else. With things like the Concealed Casting, or the False Theurgy skill trick, you can do some pretty impressive fake-outs, for example;
With Concealed Casting, they will laugh as the wizard charges them, but they realise in horror that he's actually a Minotaur!
False Theurgy, and make them think you just cast mage armor, and next turn one of them turns into a Toad.
That sounds both fitting and appropriately amusing.