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The Fury
2013-07-11, 04:50 PM
So in our group has nearly unanimously decided to make my character the de-facto leader of the party. I guess I should be flattered but I'm not sure how I feel about this. For one, I don't think I'm very experienced as a player in this role. For another, all of my character's leadership decisions previous to being declared "party leader" have all been bad ones. My character is also much younger than everyone else in the party, making the choice even stranger.

The group seems to think that my concerns are unfounded and that I'll do fine, I'm still unsure though. So, I guess I'm just looking for advice on how to not mess this up too bad.

TheCountAlucard
2013-07-11, 04:54 PM
Good leadership in a D&D-esque party requires a fine balance (in- and out-of-character) of delegation, trust, consideration of options, listening to the opinions of others, pragmatism, a head for tactics, and knowing the people you're leading.

It is almost the exact polar opposite of playing the Team Leader in a game of Paranoia.

To clarify, lacking one or any of those things doesn't mean you can't succeed, just expect things to not be easy.

What sort of character are you playing?

The Fury
2013-07-11, 05:03 PM
Good leadership in a D&D-esque party requires a fine balance of delegation, consideration of options, listening to the opinions of others, a head for tactics, and knowing the people you're leading.

It is almost the exact polar opposite of playing the Team Leader in a game of Paranoia.

What sort of character are you playing?

A fighter. Not a very well-optimized one. At the start of the campaign we were tasked with defending a town against an invasion force and I chose to play one of the conscripts. Just to underscore how desperate a situation the town was in I made my character a 13 year-old girl, which like I said makes leadership seem all the more absurd.

Sith_Happens
2013-07-11, 07:07 PM
Wait, a below-starting-age party leader? That's comic relief just waiting to happen. Milk it for all it's worth.:smallbiggrin:

Kane0
2013-07-11, 11:02 PM
If you're the party leader then i'm going to take a guess and say someone is the 'second in command' that likes to give advice and help out a lot but not to be in the spotlight. If one or more such party members exists take all the support they offer.

Second to that, learn what things you can leave to other people. If you read OotS you'd find that Roy does little himself, he just guides the party and makes sure the right person for the job is doing that job. He occasionally has to make tough calls that nobody else is willing to make but that also means that you are rarely going to be criticized for those decisions.

And try not to panic, it's just a game and all leaders must be able to deal with making bad calls and taking losses. Failure is a step towards success and all that.

Hope this helps.

Kazemi
2013-07-12, 01:05 AM
Don't forget that being a party leader does not mean you cannot ask for advice. If you guys get pinned in a tower with a horde of zombies outside, ask for options from the players. Bounce ideas off each other until many of you are leaning in one way and then enact it. Learning the other players' capabilities will also allow you to properly allocate what people are doing.

Also, don't forget that this is a game. It's meant for fun, so if leading unanimously isn't working for you, you can turn it into more of a democracy or pass the torch on. But you should give it a try for a while.

Souju
2013-07-12, 05:57 AM
there's some real RP opportunity there...
Question is...WHY were you chosen as party leader?

The Fury
2013-07-12, 01:23 PM
Wait, a below-starting-age party leader? That's comic relief just waiting to happen. Milk it for all it's worth.:smallbiggrin:

Haha! Yeah, I'm pretty sure that "Rule of Funny" was one player's reason for voting for me.


If you're the party leader then i'm going to take a guess and say someone is the 'second in command' that likes to give advice and help out a lot but not to be in the spotlight. If one or more such party members exists take all the support they offer.


Up until recently, that player was me. There was a player that usually is the party leader so I assumed he was in charge and offered advice. Later he said that he didn't want to be party leader and that led to me being chosen. The party's sorcerer has been offering advice for much of the campaign too. He sort of reminds me of Belkar if he were a spellcaster and generally suggests things like murdering people in their sleep and the like. That said, he's been giving better advice lately.


there's some real RP opportunity there...
Question is...WHY were you chosen as party leader?

That's the real sticking point with me. There are four players including me, one player doesn't want to be the leader, another is playing a halfling sorcerer that likes to blow stuff up, and finally someone who changes characters frequently for various reasons.
I guess I was chosen because I seem comparatively level-headed and try to engage the other characters in-character as much as possible. Though like I said, "Rule of Funny" probably played a part here too.

All of this advice has been helpful, thanks a lot!

Thomar_of_Uointer
2013-07-12, 03:00 PM
The party's sorcerer has been offering advice for much of the campaign too. He sort of reminds me of Belkar if he were a spellcaster and generally suggests things like murdering people in their sleep and the like. That said, he's been giving better advice lately.

Play up the rule of funny. Seriously deliberate on everything he says, and then decide "oh! Wait! That would be murder, let's not do that."

Anyways, as party leader your biggest concern is keeping everybody alive. Keep track of everybody's hit point totals and let the party's healer know when someone urgently needs healing in combat. Most importantly, track how much damage each monster attack dishes out and warn everybody if anyone in the party seems to be one full attack or critical hit away from a gruesome death. Finally, it's your call to decide when everybody needs to retreat.

Trinoya
2013-07-13, 03:46 AM
So in our group has nearly unanimously decided to make my character the de-facto leader of the party. I guess I should be flattered but I'm not sure how I feel about this. For one, I don't think I'm very experienced as a player in this role. For another, all of my character's leadership decisions previous to being declared "party leader" have all been bad ones. My character is also much younger than everyone else in the party, making the choice even stranger.

The group seems to think that my concerns are unfounded and that I'll do fine, I'm still unsure though. So, I guess I'm just looking for advice on how to not mess this up too bad.

Be careful. Many parties try to use the party leader as someone they don't have to listen to, but also someone they can blame for everything. They will look to you to make all the decisions WHEN they don't want to, and they will likely BLAME you if you make the wrong one.

Don't let them get away with it. Address it in character. "You chose to follow me, YOU chose to swear your loyalty to me." Enforce it. Make sure they understand it isn't a democracy. If they want you to bite the bullet and have all the responsibility of party leader, then be sure to make sure they aren't just abusing it so their own characters don't suffer. Start a party 'treasure' fund, keep track of it and the items the party finds, distribute them fairly. Take responsibility for your groups actions, but if someone goes off the crazy train do the responsible thing and abandon them.

Being party leader can be rewarding, and it sounds like you are set up for a good comical one, and hopefully it will remain lighthearted in the end... just make sure they get on the knees and swear that oath of loyalty before you start though.

If for no other reason than the hilarity of a ton of adventurers bowing to a 13 year old girl. :smallbiggrin:


(seriously though, watch out and make sure they won't be taking advantage of you, as a DM I've seen it happen dozens of times in spite of me throwing added protections just for the party leader... it's like players just want to watch the leader self destruct :smalleek:)

Gwazi Magnum
2013-07-13, 09:11 AM
Now if this 13 year old girl were something like a sorcerer instead of a fighter, it would probably be far less humor and far more a chosen one sort of plot.

As for advice on the actual situation though, I'd advise if you do try to keep 'control' of the group as the previous post suggested you don't be too harsh or your group will simply rebel.

I find it mostly comes down to common sense, make the most favourable and reasonable decisions, keep a level head, have some roleplaying skill etc.

The Fury
2013-07-13, 01:37 PM
Be careful. Many parties try to use the party leader as someone they don't have to listen to, but also someone they can blame for everything. They will look to you to make all the decisions WHEN they don't want to, and they will likely BLAME you if you make the wrong one.


I like to think that this group wouldn't do that. I mean, I'll keep that in mind as a possibility but this group has been together for several years now. So I think/hope that having the party blame me/my character for things that go wrong isn't very likely.
If I did have the other characters swear an oath of loyalty to me I'd probably want to have my character swear loyalty to the rest of the party too-- just so they're reassured that I won't force any one character to shoulder blame either. I'll keep your advice in mind, I just don't want to come down on the party quite so hard when I'm just starting out as leader.


Now if this 13 year old girl were something like a sorcerer instead of a fighter, it would probably be far less humor and far more a chosen one sort of plot.


Yeah, I've thought of that too. I've wondered why that is, maybe it has to do with character tiers or the mysterious waif archetype? Though so far a lot of the humor has come from keeping in mind that the character is basically a kid, and that ought to be true regardless of class, yeah?

Trinoya
2013-07-13, 03:25 PM
I like to think that this group wouldn't do that. I mean, I'll keep that in mind as a possibility but this group has been together for several years now. So I think/hope that having the party blame me/my character for things that go wrong isn't very likely.
If I did have the other characters swear an oath of loyalty to me I'd probably want to have my character swear loyalty to the rest of the party too-- just so they're reassured that I won't force any one character to shoulder blame either. I'll keep your advice in mind, I just don't want to come down on the party quite so hard when I'm just starting out as leader.


Hey, if they are cool people and won't use you for blame, then by all means ^_^ Just be careful to watch your own hide. Preparing for a party to do this to you often prevents it from ever becoming a 'thing.'

If they are a good bunch though you likely have little to worry about (I have some cutthroat players who live by the idea of "I don't need to outrun the dragon, I just need to outrun (trip) the slowest (tastiest) party member).

Phaederkiel
2013-07-13, 07:46 PM
My advice: you have a great roleplaying oppurtunity. Play it straight. RP the little girl which tries to shoulder the responsibility the grown ups have burdened her with, who is unsure why she was chosen, who is unsure of herself but tries to be the leader. You can use all the conflict you feel right now for roleplaying material.

And try to get your fighter up for the job.

Sith_Happens
2013-07-13, 09:54 PM
My advice: you have a great roleplaying oppurtunity. Play it straight. RP the little girl which tries to shoulder the responsibility the grown ups have burdened her with, who is unsure why she was chosen, who is unsure of herself but tries to be the leader. You can use all the conflict you feel right now for roleplaying material.

And try to get your fighter up for the job.

This, but don't forget to occasionally abuse your position (in completely harmless yet amusing ways, of course).:smallwink:

LULZ FOR THE LULZ GOD, ROFLS FOR THE ROFL THRONE!

EDIT: Just so we're clear, I mean things like:

"All right team, we're getting that poor kitty out of that tree if it's the last thing we do!"
"Uh, shouldn't we be—"
"—ARE YOU QUESTIONING MY AUTHORITY!?"

:smallbiggrin:

Trinoya
2013-07-13, 11:12 PM
This, but don't forget to occasionally abuse your position (in completely harmless yet amusing ways, of course).:smallwink:

LULZ FOR THE LULZ GOD, ROFLS FOR THE ROFL THRONE!

EDIT: Just so we're clear, I mean things like:

"All right team, we're getting that poor kitty out of that tree if it's the last thing we do!"
"Uh, shouldn't we be—"
"—ARE YOU QUESTIONING MY AUTHORITY!?"

:smallbiggrin:



Okay, THIS is how you MUST handle the situation now. It would be criminal if you fail to do this at least twice a 'swession' :P

The Fury
2013-07-14, 02:07 AM
My advice: you have a great roleplaying oppurtunity. Play it straight. RP the little girl which tries to shoulder the responsibility the grown ups have burdened her with, who is unsure why she was chosen, who is unsure of herself but tries to be the leader. You can use all the conflict you feel right now for roleplaying material.

And try to get your fighter up for the job.

Yeah, I sort of like the idea of my character growing into her role. Also from a strictly in-character perspective of course she'll be the best leader she can, but she's probably been more used to taking orders than giving them. Indeed, between backstory, campaign events and this new responibility there probably would be a lot of internal conflict with her but I think that's something I should handle carefully.


This, but don't forget to occasionally abuse your position (in completely harmless yet amusing ways, of course).:smallwink:

LULZ FOR THE LULZ GOD, ROFLS FOR THE ROFL THRONE!

EDIT: Just so we're clear, I mean things like:

"All right team, we're getting that poor kitty out of that tree if it's the last thing we do!"
"Uh, shouldn't we be—"
"—ARE YOU QUESTIONING MY AUTHORITY!?"

:smallbiggrin:

Haha! Unfortunately this is only possible in cases where there actually is a cat in a tree. Maybe later in the campaign I can make up for it somehow...

"There's a ginger tabby kitten in that tree, we're going to get it down."

"But that's the World Tree! It's thousands of feet high! It's holding the sky up for gods' sakes! How did that kitty even get up there?"

"I don't know how it got up there, but none of that matters... I know what we must do!"

Sith_Happens
2013-07-14, 05:21 AM
Haha! Unfortunately this is only possible in cases where there actually is a cat in a tree. Maybe later in the campaign I can make up for it somehow...

"There's a ginger tabby kitten in that tree, we're going to get it down."

"But that's the World Tree! It's thousands of feet high! It's holding the sky up for gods' sakes! How did that kitty even get up there?"

"I don't know how it got up there, but none of that matters... I know what we must do!"

That was but one example of many. You're playing a thirteen-year-old with a group of highly dangerous and capable people at her disposal. Was she bullied at all during her childhood? Start the world's most hardcore anti-bullying campaign.

Get creative.:smallwink:

The Fury
2013-07-15, 02:18 PM
My first session of being a party leader is this next Saturday, barring unforeseen circumstance. I'll let y'all know how it goes.

Jay R
2013-07-15, 04:25 PM
Do your best, be moderately serious, stay in character, do the funny stuff when it won't get anyone killed. (When you go to town, go buy lip gloss before spells, for instance.)

But here is the absolute, #1 crucial piece of advice, that swamps all the rest of this thread combined:

Have fun with it.

There's no other reason to do it.

The Fury
2013-07-15, 05:57 PM
JayR: you're absolutely right. Believe me, I consider having fun pretty much a given here. After all, that's what we're are all here to do. I am worried that I won't do a good job in this role though, in particular that I might accidentally make the game less fun for the other players or the DM.

Jay R
2013-07-16, 08:49 AM
I am worried that I won't do a good job in this role though, in particular that I might accidentally make the game less fun for the other players or the DM.

Those are two different things; don't confuse them. You might not be the most effective leader, with the most tactically sound plan. Most people aren't, the first time. But that still makes the game more fun for the person who doesn't want to be a leader, the halfling sorceror who would rather just blow things up, and the person who likes to change characters.

Just do your best, unleash the fury, and throw in a few little-girl remarks occasionally, just for fun.

"Halfling, fireball the orcs. Cleric, buff up the party. Fighter, engage the tall, handsome war leader with the beautiful blue eyes and the big shoulders and the sexy smile."

Sith_Happens
2013-07-16, 02:19 PM
"Halfling, fireball the orcs. Cleric, buff up the party. Fighter, engage the tall, handsome war leader with the beautiful blue eyes and the big shoulders and the sexy smile."

This makes me think of Tiny Tina for some reason, which is especially odd given the lack of swearing or inner-city slang.

The Fury
2013-07-16, 06:50 PM
Maybe I should have my character develop a minor obsession with crumpets and a lazy eye then?

The Fury
2013-07-21, 09:31 PM
The game got canceled for this week so I guess I won't have to worry too much about party leadership until the week after next.
I guess in the meantime if anyone has any stories about being a party leader go ahead and share, I'd love to hear them!

Segev
2013-07-24, 08:20 AM
Now if this 13 year old girl were something like a sorcerer instead of a fighter, it would probably be far less humor and far more a chosen one sort of plot.

If I were DM, the 13-year-old girl-leader being a Fighter wouldn't stop me from possibly doing this. >_> <_<

Segev
2013-07-24, 08:23 AM
The game got canceled for this week so I guess I won't have to worry too much about party leadership until the week after next.
I guess in the meantime if anyone has any stories about being a party leader go ahead and share, I'd love to hear them!

My own experiences with the "party leader" role tend to be a sort of Murphy's Law parable. When I sit and discuss with the party what we need in a party leader, inevitably the person who agrees to play it either can't do it or has to drop out of the game. When I plan to make the "leader" type, 1-3 other players in the party are guaranteed to have done the same thing, and "hilarity" ensues. When I deliberately strive to make a follower-type who'll tag along and go with the party flow...so does everybody else, and we wind up having breakfast around the tavern table all session, every session.

The Fury
2013-07-24, 11:13 AM
If I were DM, the 13-year-old girl-leader being a Fighter wouldn't stop me from possibly doing this. >_> <_<

Early on in the campaign when the character referred to her backstory, being abandoned at an inn at a very young age and adopted by the innkeeper's family, some other players suggested that she have more Chosen One sort of tropes in her history. Like having a birthmark identical to that of a long-lost princess or being the product of immaculate birth. I've actually been resistant to the idea.


My own experiences with the "party leader" role tend to be a sort of Murphy's Law parable. When I sit and discuss with the party what we need in a party leader, inevitably the person who agrees to play it either can't do it or has to drop out of the game. When I plan to make the "leader" type, 1-3 other players in the party are guaranteed to have done the same thing, and "hilarity" ensues. When I deliberately strive to make a follower-type who'll tag along and go with the party flow...so does everybody else, and we wind up having breakfast around the tavern table all session, every session.

That's rough. But hey, on the plus side; breakfast! Though when characters are made to be party leaders what does that usually entail? Just a personality for delegating orders and such?

Segev
2013-07-25, 08:05 AM
Unofficial party leaders are the characters who just happen to be listened to when push comes to shove at decision-time.

Official party leaders really have exactly the authority their party says they do.

TheCountAlucard
2013-07-25, 08:31 AM
Official party leaders really have exactly the authority their party says they do.Which is why it's so amusing to recruit the player who's new to Paranoia as Team Leader. :smallbiggrin:

Kato
2013-07-25, 09:57 AM
Early on in the campaign when the character referred to her backstory, being abandoned at an inn at a very young age and adopted by the innkeeper's family, some other players suggested that she have more Chosen One sort of tropes in her history. Like having a birthmark identical to that of a long-lost princess or being the product of immaculate birth. I've actually been resistant to the idea.

It depends on how serious your group is but even if it is not true, I guess it could still make for an interesting plot. You could hand it to your DM to decide about your heritage but still play the person who everyone thinks is the chosen one or special of some sort but doesn't want to take on the role. If the other players are into it anyway, it might be a rare chance.



Unofficial party leaders are the characters who just happen to be listened to when push comes to shove at decision-time.

Official party leaders really have exactly the authority their party says they do.
Yeah... Most of the time we don't really have clear leaders, except in one campaign we were basically employed by one player who, while not the brawns of the group was knd of in charge. And since he paid most of us we went along with it, for the most part.
But in a group of equals I guess it is pretty hard to make a leader everyone will listen to without further reason behind it.

The Fury
2013-07-26, 12:23 AM
It depends on how serious your group is but even if it is not true, I guess it could still make for an interesting plot. You could hand it to your DM to decide about your heritage but still play the person who everyone thinks is the chosen one or special of some sort but doesn't want to take on the role. If the other players are into it anyway, it might be a rare chance.

From a metagame sort of standpoint I'm not sure I'd want to have a significant part of the campaign's overarching plot center around my character. She does have an interesting background and character arc, but the other PCs should have their moments as well. Especially since my character has already had a lot of time in the spotlight.
Besides, so far my character's never seen anything that might lead her to believe that she's particularly special. The question of her parentage has more or less been answered too. Her birth-parents were adventurers-- basically parodies of what player characters tend to be like. Meeting them in-character was quite an experience!



Yeah... Most of the time we don't really have clear leaders, except in one campaign we were basically employed by one player who, while not the brawns of the group was knd of in charge. And since he paid most of us we went along with it, for the most part.
But in a group of equals I guess it is pretty hard to make a leader everyone will listen to without further reason behind it.

I guess the only real "leader" in a party of equals is the one that's able to come up with ideas, yeah? At least in theory you ought to be able to get the party to go along with a plan that's sensible. Maybe.
I guess in a typical adventuring party where no one character can pull rank, whoever the leader is remains kind of nebulous.

Kato
2013-07-26, 03:37 AM
Besides, so far my character's never seen anything that might lead her to believe that she's particularly special. The question of her parentage has more or less been answered too. Her birth-parents were adventurers-- basically parodies of what player characters tend to be like. Meeting them in-character was quite an experience!
Ah, I guess then this is already decided.
Well... if you think your character should be less in the spotlight I guess talk to your DM about, and possibly your other players? I mean, obviously you can't make your other players stop referring to you as the leader (unless you (voluntarily) make really crappy choices) but as you described, there is no proper reason for them to follow you like that. Except because they think it's funny.



I guess the only real "leader" in a party of equals is the one that's able to come up with ideas, yeah? At least in theory you ought to be able to get the party to go along with a plan that's sensible. Maybe.

Well, the thing with sensible plans is... different people can and will consider different plans sensible. Is it sensible to burn down the enemies town and make the rest of them your slaves? I guess, but it also is pretty evil. Is it sensible to deny the major's reward because it is your duty as a law-abiding citizen to stop the evil goblins? Is it sensible to fight the evil king who is trying to get you and throw you in prison or to just run away?
Even alignment notwithstanding, there can always be situation when two choices are equally sensible and the party somehow has to come to terms with it.

So, yeah... if it was that easy there would be much less conflict within parties/life.

The Fury
2013-07-28, 10:57 AM
Ah, I guess then this is already decided.
Well... if you think your character should be less in the spotlight I guess talk to your DM about, and possibly your other players? I mean, obviously you can't make your other players stop referring to you as the leader (unless you (voluntarily) make really crappy choices) but as you described, there is no proper reason for them to follow you like that. Except because they think it's funny.


Oh, I'm actually OK with the amount of attention my character is getting now. I'm just thinking that if she turns out to be a chosen one of some kind that would push her into being full-on Mary Sue. That said, as long as the other players get their character arcs and have fun I'm perfectly OK with amount of time my character is getting.
Weirdly enough, the Sorcerer actually does periodically tell my character that she might be a chosen one-- she generally reacts with skepticism.

Arkhosia
2013-07-28, 08:10 PM
You shouldn't have to worry about that.
(http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Aang)

Jay R
2013-07-29, 10:44 AM
Early on in the campaign when the character referred to her backstory, being abandoned at an inn at a very young age and adopted by the innkeeper's family, some other players suggested that she have more Chosen One sort of tropes in her history. Like having a birthmark identical to that of a long-lost princess or being the product of immaculate birth. I've actually been resistant to the idea.

You can tone down the idea by playing with it in character.

"Chosen by whom? Is he cute?"

The Fury
2013-07-30, 10:04 AM
You shouldn't have to worry about that.
(http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Aang)

That's true. My character is definitely not the Avatar or even a bender so... uh...
Sorry, I'm incredibly dense so I'm not quite sure what you meant. Could you clarify?

Sith_Happens
2013-07-30, 07:12 PM
That's true. My character is definitely not the Avatar or even a bender so... uh...
Sorry, I'm incredibly dense so I'm not quite sure what you meant. Could you clarify?

I think she's alluding to the fact that one can be the Chosen One without detracting from one's own character or even anyone else's.

The Fury
2013-07-30, 07:46 PM
I think she's alluding to the fact that one can be the Chosen One without detracting from one's own character or even anyone else's.

Is that what you meant, Arkhosia? That makes sense then. Though considering that I try to dial down my character's personal melodrama because some people find that insufferable. If my character were a chosen one I'd be too worried about crossing a line for it to be any fun to play.
I admit that this is more of a deficiency of me as a player and demonstrates a weak imagination, but this is a hang up that I honestly can't see myself getting over.

Sith_Happens
2013-07-30, 09:03 PM
Just because you're the Chosen One doesn't mean you have to act like the Chosen One.