[3.5] By RAW can you jump in mid air?

[NeoPhoenix0]

A couple of question from the RAW Q&A thread got me thinking.


Q 438

If a character has both flight and perfect maneuverability, including the ability to hover in one position, can that character use the Jump skill to leap from the point in the air there hovering at?


Q 427

If a Heganyoki Sparrow (that race form OA that can turn into animals and one version can turn into a Sparrow is what I'm talking about cause I'm sure I misspelled it. ) With levels in Warblade or Swordsage were to take Tiger Claw maneuvers that require a Jump Check, Soaring Raptor Strike just for a quick example, could he use them while flying in sparrow form simply by rolling the jump check?

They were answered no, but after looking at the text I didn't see it directly say you need to be on the ground to do a jump check. It has to be part of a move action so you at least have to be able to move. I made this thread so I wouldn't bog down the Q&A thread.

So is there any RAW reason why you can't jump in mid-air with flight or something?

Edit: Citations requested.

[BowStreetRunner]

I'd almost think that the 'jumping down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm)' rules could apply here. You are flying and need to make a jump check to perform your action, so rather than jumping up you stop flying and 'jump down' instead. If you do not end up on the ground at the conclusion of the jump, the rules for flight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly) say you can resume flying as a free action.

[lsfreak]

My guess is that by strict RAW, there's nothing preventing it. Kind of like how by strict RAW, being dead doesn't actually impair your ability to take actions.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I should probably say that I don't intend to actually use this in game.

Anyway, I can see jumping down while in flight a viable use of it, because you are preparing to drop down. As for when you use it, it depends on your manuverability but the restictions when combined with closed spaces can lead to stalling and stuff, so maybe if you plan it out you can use a jump check to "jump" down?

For the rest of it I wouldn't even try to justify in an actual game, but it seem odd that they never mention being on a surface.

[Emmerask]

Well there is the line in the dmg/phb? that if not said otherwise physics behave like in the real world.

I do not have a citation currently though since I just cant find it.
And it also depends on what you consider a jump, I´m sure you can move upwards a few nanometer by jumping in the air ^^


However Epic balance(dc120) allows you to balance on a cloud, if you can balance on a thing you can jump from the thing.
Since clouds are less dense then air you should also be able to balance on air and since you can balance you can jump ^^

[NeoPhoenix0]

Well there is the line in the dmg/phb? that if not said otherwise physics behave like in the real world.

I can understand this and it might be the answer, but if you combine things that you can explicitly do and normal physics where the rules don't say, things can get weird real fast. Still think making a jump check to drop should help and be separate form a tumble check to reduce the impact of falling.

[Emmerask]

Well if you want to "drop" down with the fly spell you can just do that.

The down angle can be freely chosen (with Maneuverability good) and you even get double the speed.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Fly#Maximum_Turn

[NeoPhoenix0]

Yeah, I know all that stuff. This is an extremely hypothetical thread just to try and figure out if the rules in fact limit jumping to the ground.

Edit: Also there are still extreme cases where you might want to jump.

[Vaz]

There's nothing preventing it; for example, combining Battle Jump with Dive, Power Attack, 2Handed Charge, for example rapidly deals immense damage.

I've used it myself in the Iron Chef, which didn't find a problem with it, either.

Think of it as using the wings as a quick boost to gain height, before going into freefall to get terminal velocity; after all, the Wings of Raptorans and Dragonborn provide exactly that benefit, without removing the +10 bonus should said character gain the ability to fly.

[Lightlawbliss]

I see nothing in RAW (or really in RAI) that would prevent it, assuming you had a reasonable way to actually perform the "jump". This would be especially true imo with spells like air walk.

[Andezzar]

The rules only define what game mechanic is used to judge whether a jump is successful and when to use the skill. They do not tell us what a jump is, so we have to go by normal dictionary definitions:

1
a : to spring into the air : leap; especially : to spring free from the ground or other base by the muscular action of feet and legsAt least the latter part cannot be done while airborne.

and:


1
: to spring free from or as if from the ground : jump <leap over a fence> <a fish leaps out of the water>

There are other definitions, but they use jump as a metaphor for somehting other than physical movement.

[NeoPhoenix0]

That is a fair assessment. As they use the word jump often in the mechanics without defining it, it is certainly reasonable that the DM must decide what falls under the definition of jump.

So assuming you must jump from a surface is reasonable.

[Drachasor]

Not so fast, let's look at the WHOLE definition!



verb (used without object)

to spring clear of the ground or other support by a sudden muscular effort; leap: to jump into the air; to jump out a window.
to rise suddenly or quickly: He jumped from his seat when she entered.
to move or jerk suddenly, as from surprise or shock: He jumped when the firecracker exploded.
to obey quickly and energetically; hustle: The waiter was told to jump when the captain signaled.
Informal. to be full of activity; bustle: The whole town is jumping with excitement.


Both of the bolded ones allow for jumping in the air (especially 2). Indeed, it is an entirely proper use of the word to say "the hovering pixie suddenly jumped up 10 feet higher into the air" or the like.

At first I was against using jump while flying. Now I think it is a neat idea to give some flyers some added options.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Another good point. It might be appropriate to call the RAW for jump too vague and it requires interpretation. There is certainly at least two RAI interpretations for jump.

1) you must jump from a platform

2) you can jump in the air as long as you have a form of movement.

I suddenly also like the idea of fliers jumping.

[Krazzman]

Considering we think about jumping as a form of movement description (i.e. a mostly nonchangable quick "dash" in one direction). This allows this "mid air" when having a movement form in that area.

Be it underwater (although harder due to not getting a running start without a proper swimmingspeed) in the air as a quick propelled movement (effectively you could dodge line attacks with a counter maneuver allowing a jump check or a ready action) or from the ground to jump over a hole.

Airwalk allowes it anyway and balance dc 120 is effectively airwalk so this is out of the question.

[Evolved Shrimp]

How about this? – "Jump" could be considered as really being two different things:

Jumping (high jump, long jump): You push yourself away from an object (usually the ground) with your legs to clear a height or distance that you couldn’t clear with a normal step.
Jumping down: You fall in a controlled manner, to prevent or minimize any injuries you might otherwise take.

Combinations are possible, such as jumping over a second-story balcony railing and landing on the street.

In this view of things, you could jump down when flying, irrespective of your maneuverability. However, you could not normally jump (up or wide) because you lack the object to push against. This holds true even when you have perfect maneuverability, but could possibly be circumvented by epic shenanigans such as balancing on clouds.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Could be. I'm trying very hard to not bring up the definition/lack of defenition of "object" in d&d. That discussion can lead to the definition of "thing" which goes absolutely nowhere. Instead of object, I suggest you use the word "surface", as it at least has a better dictionary definition.

Nitpicking aside I still think a sudden movement caused by wings could be considered a jump.

[TuggyNE]

Indeed, it is an entirely proper use of the word to say "the hovering pixie suddenly jumped up 10 feet higher into the air" or the like.

But why would you need a Jump check for that? If you have the move speed and maneuverability, you simply move; if you don't, "jumping" will not help. So no, that's not a valid use of the Jump skill, any more than Gather Information is used to find where the tracks in front of you lead by searching for more of them.

[Drachasor]

But why would you need a Jump check for that? If you have the move speed and maneuverability, you simply move; if you don't, "jumping" will not help. So no, that's not a valid use of the Jump skill, any more than Gather Information is used to find where the tracks in front of you lead by searching for more of them.

Mechanically speaking, if your jump check is high enough you could move up faster than you could otherwise. Jump doesn't require a surface to jump off of and it can easily be explained as a burst of energy to move in one direction (up in this case).

I'm not saying it is RAI, mind you, just that it could have some use.

[Spuddles]

Jumping up could be a good way to gain altitude if you have a crappy maneuverability.


There's nothing preventing it; for example, combining Battle Jump with Dive, Power Attack, 2Handed Charge, for example rapidly deals immense damage.

Well, except for this clause: "You can't jump from more than 30 feet above your opponent, nor can you effectively battle jump while under the influence of a fly or levitate spell or effect, as you have to hurl yourself down on your foe. "

[Emmerask]

Not so fast, let's look at the WHOLE definition!



Both of the bolded ones allow for jumping in the air (especially 2). Indeed, it is an entirely proper use of the word to say "the hovering pixie suddenly jumped up 10 feet higher into the air" or the like.

At first I was against using jump while flying. Now I think it is a neat idea to give some flyers some added options.

Both the things you highlighted are just figurative speech :smallbiggrin:

[Evolved Shrimp]

Nitpicking aside I still think a sudden movement caused by wings could be considered a jump.

Yeah, you’re right – it should be something similar to a jump (considering that, if you beat your wings hard enough, the air becomes something like a surface).

Perhaps, this could be modeled as a Fly skill check instead of a Jump skill check? – Ah, no, there is no Fly skill… :smallfrown:

Maybe a Jump check with a heavy penalty (-10? -20?) and bonuses for strength (strength modifier?) and maneuverability (0 for “good”, ±5 per level above or below that?) then?

[Lightlawbliss]

...
Maybe a Jump check with a heavy penalty (-10? -20?) and bonuses for strength (strength modifier?) and maneuverability (0 for “good”, ±5 per level above or below that?) then?

jump uses str mod already, and I think assigning penlites based on movement would be a better plan then a set penalty. I would also say giving a penalty number for those with no fly speed at all would likely be a good idea. (let's face it, who doesn't want double jump?) I'm thinking maybe a -40 for the no fly speed one.

edit: keep in mind a -20 is actually not as bad as the books make it out to be. (especially when spells like this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) are allowed) -20 means a person with training or a good score has a chance of doing it. -20 would mean that an Olympic athlete in the skill could probably do it rather often.

[sreservoir]

Both the things you highlighted are just figurative speech :smallbiggrin:

that doesn't mean anything when the figurative use is so firmly entrenched in the language.

[ericgrau]

In means quite a lot when they are completely different from what we are talking about.

RAW doesn't say you can't do a lot of things, but that doesn't mean much. It doesn't say you can either. I for one am grateful that RAW is not the "Library of Babel" to have a comment on every last combination of words. So we must assume that "jumping" talks about typical jumping, as in from a surface.

IMO air walk jumping seems fair but it's totally up to DM interpretation. As in error 404, RAW not found.

[Sith_Happens]

But why would you need a Jump check for that?

Because you want to use Leap Attack or certain Tiger Claw maneuvers.