Designing a Dynamic World

[Sythirius]

Lately I have been designing my own campaign, homebrew, from the ground-up, and not using a fairly large amount of the normal D&D classes, spells, races, etc.

I had this idea for a world that develops and is set in 6 ages, and decisions made by the party with characters in an earlier age could have larger impact.

The ages are as follows:

1. Ancient World (largely based off Mesopotamia and the Mediterraneans cultures of the day, mixed with Nordic and Germanic religion and culture for some extra flavor; bronze age)
2. Empire (Iron Age)
3. Medieval
4. Renaissance/Enlightenment
5. Industrial (with a little of Victorian Steampunk)
6. Futuristic (because who doesn't love magic and steam-powered giant robots?)

Right now, I'm largely focusing on the first age, and the party will start in a world only a few hundred years old. The players realize as they play through it that they are experiencing the onset of an apocalypse, begun by a race (based off of the concept of ancient arabic gods and Djiin) called the Navi'im, who, being the creators of this world, use the mortal races as a kind of food source, and while not all of them are evil, their total control of the world puts humanity in jeopardy when the creator god Yrjj (based on YHVH, mixed with dragons because they're kewl) decides that it is time to destroy/recreate the world before mortals make powerful enough civilizations to resist them.

In each age, new classes based on the current theme will be added, while none will truly be taken away. Magic is based off summoning demons (ala Goetia, or in this case, the Naviim), binding them to your will, or making offerings to them and seeking their aid. The class that summons them, Shaman will have the highest raw power out of all the magic classes for this reason. There are no clerics, and instead, there will be a different thematically-correct class that replaces the same function. In the first age, Monks who channel ki, can use it to heal, and are masters of channeling energy. The other base classes are Warrior, Ranger, Rogue, and Berserker.

The health system is a variant of the VP/WP system (although I prefer calling it HP instead of WP), but there is no health gained per level, and a greater focus is placed on armor providing a level of protection that seems more realistic (starting shields aren't limited to +1 ac, for instance). Ranged attacks are going to be similar to a system from a game called deadlands, with successive rolls against the opponent's own checks (dodge factor of 10 + dex mod) causes increased critical modifiers (up to x4) with each successful roll. Aiming for certain body parts causes penalties to attack rolls (much like deadlands) and there will be an injury system for substantial wounds taken to certain parts of the body. The playable races are largely based off of Germanic/Nordic lore and are Human, Light/Dark Elf, Dwarves, Half-orcs, Half-elves, and possibly Jotun.

Feats and prestige classes are story-oriented, and pre-reqs for many feats can be acquired if certain conditions are met. Toughness for example, is an infinitely stacking feat that gains another rank each time a character loses at least half of their HP in a single battle. Each rank increases HP by 1 point. Improved Toughness on the other hand, can only be gained once, and only when all HP is gone, and half of WP is missing, and a save made to ignore the damage and continue with a full set of actions (rather than a single standard action) is done successfully. The result in this case is the characters con modifier added to their WP in addition to the constitution score. I hope to create a dynamic system where characters focus more on the roleplaying rather than trying to play a numbers game, as well as removing the pesky rp problem for a character magically gains knowledge they didn't previously have. Prestige classes in many cases for example, will require someone to train said character. It should also be mentioned that some basic feats can still be taken at certain levels, giving the player a level of control over the characters that I feel should be present.

In short I need input on how to best handle IYO the magic system, and certain feats. Any other suggestions, questions, or otherwise are also greatly appreciated.

edit: Note that a greater focus is put on realism so I am thinking of revamping the fighting classes, and I was thinking of using martial stances, but I don't like the idea of the ones in Tome of Battle because they are simply too over-the-top. I want to create a very visceral feel in a game that forces fighters, thieves, and mages alike to use tactics as best as they can to their advantage.

[JusticeZero]

There are no clerics, and instead, there will be a different thematically-correct class that replaces the same function.Which function is that, exactly? DnD clerics are probably best defined as from Mumford's "necropolis" of tending for, protecting against, and warding against becoming, the dead as representative of earlier historical European civilizations. In mechanical terms, clerics have the tools for dealing with the undead, and the spells to repair various status effects that others lack.
The health system is... Ranged attacks are going to be...Game design is actually a lot harder than it looks, and I wince when I see huge sweeping system changes - they almost always tend to turn into train wrecks. Particularly..
Aiming for certain body parts causes penalties to attack rolls (much like deadlands) and there will be an injury system for substantial wounds taken to certain parts of the body..Translation: "After a couple of adventures, all I need is to know is whether or not anythings' head has more HP than the fighters can do in a single attack." It's one of those things where realism and fun just don't really mix. And the basic assumption of HP is that your characters are already going for the best attack spot. The only way a called shot system makes any sense in those terms is if the special effects of hitting specific body parts ALWAYS results in the enemy taking LESS damage than if they had just gone for the basic attack.
Clever, clever, clever. Something neither of us are.
I hope to create a dynamic system where characters focus more on the roleplaying rather than trying to play a numbers game, as well as removing the pesky rp problem for a character magically gains knowledge they didn't previously have.You can accomplish that in any game system, just de-emphasize the stuff where you grind rolls in combat, which a bunch of combat house rules does not do. Don't claim anything openly available is secret mysterious knowledge.
edit: Note that a greater focus is put on realism so I am thinking of revamping the fighting classes, and I was thinking of using martial stances, but I don't like the idea of the ones in Tome of Battle because they are simply too over-the-top.So in other words, you want to nerf the BMX Bandit more. "One of them can shape reality with their pinky finger, and one of them works out at the gym! ..omg this isn't realistic, we need to weaken the guy who works out so he'll be more mundane! Q, you're fine."
Seriously? You have a guy who can arbitrarily bend reality with their will, and you're going to get offended when their bodyguard does anything woo-woo?

You are proposing massive sweeping changes to the system, changes which by the way vastly favor spellcasters, and which will probably not work as intended. You are repeatedly and mercilessly committing the crime of cleverness. You are not half as clever as you think you are, and neither is anyone else; massive rule changes have a lot of consequences that usually come back to bite you around the third or fourth order of consequence where it is next to impossible to forsee. Though with the multiple levels of increased lethality, the first order might do in your game when the TPK derails the plot. Your changes are not really in keeping with the game value of the system, and i'm not sure why you intend to use a dnd chassis as a result. A different game system might be closer to what you are looking for.

[Sythirius]

snip

It probably doesn't help that I'm rather bad at explaining things, and since I'm in the design phase, and just getting an idea of I'm going to do things, I don't have the best idea of what I'm going to be doing yet.

However, I never made any claims to being particularly clever.

Also, magic is spirit/pact magic (ala Goetia & Druidic practices) with very large repercussions for failure. And although it is unlikely that anyone will learn a lot of it, everyone has the potential (in theory) to learn magic.

I'm still working on the magic system, but I already play-tested the combat system and it works fine with what I have so far.

Just because there are horrible, horrible gaps in what I'm explaining doesn't mean you should fill them in and assume my game is something that it is not.

I understand that magic has to be dramatically different as well. Although mind you, magic should be powerful, and mages SHOULD be feared, and for a reason. There are going to be impressive physical abilities, but not as much in the base classes, where everything is more mundane.

[Alexkubel]

I use an custom system with hit locations, each location has different health heres how hitting works in it, announce your attack type and location

stab (straight, good penetration but only one section, easy to block) slash (can hit multiple sections, not good pen, easy hit)
or swing (can hit multiple sections, good damage, easy to dodge)
stab can hit all locations
legs(had good health and non vital, but stops them dodging, this is best dodged),
head (hardest to hit, but has lowest health),
torso (made in 2 parts chest and abdomen, both are vital, good health and lots of critical places, easiest to hit)
or arms (good health, if hit can disarm, if health is gone they can't block)
swing can only go for arms or head
slash is head torso or legs



you make your 'to hit' roll (not going to dwell on numbers) while the opponent either attempts to block or dodge (not both), if they don't succcessfuly block or dodge and you don't miss, you roll for specific location (with the exception of head), once you've determined where you hit
you roll for penetration, how many dice you roll is determined by the weapons penetration value (high value weapons usually can only attack in certain weapons, e.g. hammers and rapiers (hammers can only swing or slash, rapiers can only stab) or small ones like daggers, for melee and certain ranged weapons it is modified by your skill and strength) penetration value is subtracted from armour, if there is left over value then you discard any remaining penetration value and you deal full damage to health, no subtraction. if you don't then the remaining armour value is subtracted from damage to health. deal damage, if you do pen with double the armour value, the you might critically injure them (most of the time, you don't kill them, they'll be full of cuts, kicked past the moon but alive) and roll on the critical table for that location and deal results.

this system just cuts out the swing type for ranged weapons, it all counts as stabs for attack purposes, this does of course mean that it is technically possible to headshot a person with an 150mm round (not that they've done it yet) vehicles also are complicated. as you don't kill them and criticals are also crew hits.

an suit of full plate has average armour of 140 an panzer II has the average armour of 360 by comparison, it takes a lot more then a crossbow to dent a panzer II, an rifle has penetration of 3D100+200, and damage of 2D100+300, the cheat location has between 200 and 400 health on an human. with full plate fitting an armour value of 600. this is how or sstem works, and it's quick oce you know it, we could cut everything into tenths of their current state but we do a lot with big numbers. heck it's fun when firing a shell that does 10D100+1000000 damage. until a dog runs under your tank.

[Sythirius]

snip

Sounds boss. If you don't mind, I might borrow a few ideas from that. I'm basically using a health system similar to Deadlands, with a wound point system for good measure, so d100 for rifles would be terrible if people didn't want to be one-shot.

HP is set at 10 + con mod
WP is set at constitution score + strength mod

As you can see, it's going to get messy real quick for the players, and the armor has been increased to about what I felt it should be at, while doing research on the functionality of real-world equipment. Shields have much higher than a +1 to ac for instance, and in addition, most light armor has 1 dr, medium armor has 2 dr, and heavy armor has 3 dr to simulate the armor taking some of the hit from the attack (rather than just stopping it ala AC)

Most of the feats are not going to be something the character can choose, such as toughness, which a character automatically receives for surviving an encounter after taking half or more of their HP. It is a feat that can be obtained multiple times, and each rank confers the bonus of +1 HP (which is really just VP in my system). Event related pre-reqs also exist for prestige classes, and even learning new skills, and simulate how a character can not automatically obtain new abilities after defeating a few monsters. Instead, one learns through training and hardship, making it a "dynamic system," and one which I am finding very frustrating to build.

Any other thoughts, comments, criticisms or advice are most welcome!

[AcerbicOrb]

I like the idea of being able to target different parts of the body. My suggestion would be to have these hits do less damage but have special effects such as disarming, as Alexkubel said. Permanent maiming would be nice, if you;ll excuse how weird that sounds without context.

However, I can see people getting their allies to knock them to under half health in battles for the Toughness feat. Maybe making it damage taken from a proper enemy only? Or just have it be down to the DM's judgement.

Having an increased focus on contract magic and Shamans sounds quite interesting. I don't know too much about them mechanics, so I won't comment on that. I hope you do decided to include Jotun, as I like uncommon races being included.

I see one problem, though. How do you plan to have an Industrial Age? You said the Ancient World age is in a young world, but then there would be no time for fossil fuels such as coal or oil to develop (a process that takes millions of years), making an industrial age a near impossibility.

[Alexkubel]

I like the idea of being able to target different parts of the body. My suggestion would be to have these hits do less damage but have special effects such as disarming, as Alexkubel said. Permanent maiming would be nice, if you;ll excuse how weird that sounds without context.

However, I can see people getting their allies to knock them to under half health in battles for the Toughness feat. Maybe making it damage taken from a proper enemy only? Or just have it be down to the DM's judgement.

Having an increased focus on contract magic and Shamans sounds quite interesting. I don't know too much about them mechanics, so I won't comment on that. I hope you do decided to include Jotun, as I like uncommon races being included.

I see one problem, though. How do you plan to have an Industrial Age? You said the Ancient World age is in a young world, but then there would be no time for fossil fuels such as coal or oil to develop (a process that takes millions of years), making an industrial age a near impossibility.

there is an answer to your prayers, well two actually, without time of fossil fuels to develop, nuclear power sources or hydrogen burning engines will appear, and than we have the aspect of time, the 3 early ages would be very slow to develop with technology. anyway steam powered technically incudes nuclear reactors.

as for your comments on my system, shields are a bog part, along with the fact that shields have the 'bullet proof' ability, they stop a lot of damage from ranged weapons, damage and pen /6 then you hit the armour underneath, using a shield is blocking.

people die quickly, that is the entire thing behind the system, you could lose all the health in your head, you'd be suffering haemorrhage almost certainly but you could live, critical wounds are what kill, the heads criticl parts are, neck (decapitation), ear (wasted hit), jaw (can KO target, not always fatal), spine (can be fatal, will KO)

[Sythirius]

there is an answer to your prayers, well two actually, without time of fossil fuels to develop, nuclear power sources or hydrogen burning engines will appear, and than we have the aspect of time, the 3 early ages would be very slow to develop with technology. anyway steam powered technically incudes nuclear reactors.

as for your comments on my system, shields are a bog part, along with the fact that shields have the 'bullet proof' ability, they stop a lot of damage from ranged weapons, damage and pen /6 then you hit the armour underneath, using a shield is blocking.

people die quickly, that is the entire thing behind the system, you could lose all the health in your head, you'd be suffering haemorrhage almost certainly but you could live, critical wounds are what kill, the heads criticl parts are, neck (decapitation), ear (wasted hit), jaw (can KO target, not always fatal), spine (can be fatal, will KO)

Actually, I decided to make an older world, with a very young civilization. Keep in mind, that this world isn't really based of our world. Alchemy is correct and not mere chemistry. Magic instead of science, etc. Though we are looking at later eras for that.

The general idea is that the "gods," which is our closest english equivalent for them (and will be named as the Navi'im from here on) were sundered from a single divine being in a single act of creation. However, the world was harsh, and in order to survive they devoured each other, in a great war, which saw its resolution with a pact. Maintained by the ruler of the Navi'im and his four servants, mortal races would be build as the slaves of the gods in order to realize a new world, where the Navi'im would not have to slaughter each other, and in which they could all have power like the original creator god, returning to the original brush strokes of creation.

And so the gods created the jotun, mighty giants made with the physical build to create the labyrinth in which the weapon of the Navi'im would be realized. But the Jotun were too virile, and reproduced too quickly, and with their mighty strength and ingenuity, their civilization grew until they could rebell against the Navi'im and so slayed many of them, but in the end they were overpowered, and their great cities were destroyed, and the strongest fled deep into the earth, or into the elemental plane of fire.

Then the Navi'im created the dvergar (later to be called dwarves) who were of smaller stature and less virile, yet sturdy and strong. Though there were few of them, they were craftier, and after the Navi'im destroyed their civilization (lest it get too strong), they dug themselves far underground, and were rarely seen again.

And so the Navi'im created man, a race eager to please, comfortable with rigid hierarchy, strong enough to build, and smart enough to learn. And so work continued, and as each civilization developed too far, the Navi'im exterminated them, and started over.

The current generation has a technology level reminiscent of Persia (500 bc), with a civilization that has developed far quicker than ever before, thanks to the countless ruins from which ancient technology has surfaced for them to learn.

As for the health system, you do the same damage to every part of the body, and it subtracts from a single "wound point" total. The only reason to target parts of the body is to inflict wound damage, which can cripple or kill depending on the region. Also, shields apply to every body part, making them invaluable as they were in real life.

As for the Navi'im they are generally in separate camps. The majority support civilization, in order so they can use it. To do this, they keep the majority of the population happy and healthy.

Jinn, and demons fall into this category.

The other camp does not care anything for the pact reached during the war of the gods, and believe in the strength of the individual, and free will. Though this means that free will is acceptable to all kinds of people, from law abiding citizens to murderers. Therefore, the right to live is determined by the strength of the individual. A being in this category is known to send a gruesome plague just to test and strengthen mortals.

Dragons and fey tend to fall into this category.

Nature spirits tend to be neutral and are like much lesser children of the Navi'im. Their motivation is primarily one of balance, no matter the cost to achieve it.

Doomchicken-
Now as for your concern for people damaging each other for HP, wounds don't recover over night and take time, so while I don't see why I shouldn't let someone get HP in this circumstance, though it's a foolish move since it weaken them for the next encounter.

Contract magic is very powerful, but the type of spells one can use depends on if they are channeling a god-like being, or if they are simply channeling nature spirits. A water spirit can allow a caster to use water magic, etc., while one of the Navi'im will come with its own list of spells (and the danger of total possession). Depending on the strength and number of the spirits, a caster's caster level can scale infinitely, but he has to make a will save against his caster level to avoid either damaging, or totally destroying his body as the magic consumes him. Depending on the fertility and type of area, there is a limited amount of nature spirits of various types, and when they are exhausted, the area becomes "magically dead," for lack of a better word. The land becomes poisoned, and the remnants of dead spirits reanimate fallen corpses to prey on the living. In such a region, characters make make checks to maintain their sanity, or they will go insane and become possessed (or die and become reanimated). In areas of desert, black sand will be created in that region (which can be possessed).

Also, touch attacks for magic are being removed, armor now protects against them, since that desperately needs to fixed. So in the answer to the guy who said I was just going to cause TPK, it's more that magic in my game is still really powerful, but there are few if any actual reality-bending spells, and very serious consequences for using magic that may make them challenging to use.

....also, elves do exist, but as humans that have become well......better.

[JusticeZero]

Any time you start thinking you are better at design and balance than game designers, without evidence (such as various accepted analysis of two weapon) is as good as an assertion of brilliance. Any time you start creating exotic settings with bold and bizarre elements, you are proclaiming your genius.

The problem is that nobody is as smart or as able to deal with the layers of change that these clever modifications will create. You aren't half as clever as you think you are. They WILL come back to bite you, and the more you make at once, the more synergistic the reckoning will be.

Why is touch AC a "problem"? It is mostly only invoked by people who couldn't hit the side of a barn through moderate armoring.

[Sythirius]

Any time you start thinking you are better at design and balance than game designers, without evidence (such as various accepted analysis of two weapon) is as good as an assertion of brilliance. Any time you start creating exotic settings with bold and bizarre elements, you are proclaiming your genius.

The problem is that nobody is as smart or as able to deal with the layers of change that these clever modifications will create. You aren't half as clever as you think you are. They WILL come back to bite you, and the more you make at once, the more synergistic the reckoning will be.

Why is touch AC a "problem"? It is mostly only invoked by people who couldn't hit the side of a barn through moderate armoring.


I though that this guy had a few good ideas on changing touch attacks, and decent reasons behind them: http://www.kjd-imc.org/2012/02/03/simplifying-armor-class/

And to be honest, I'm trying to simplify things more than complicate so that I CAN handle more layers of change. Will the finished product be perfect? Absolutely not. Whenever I think of adding or changing something, I ask myself first on what does it add/take away from the game. I don't have nearly enough experience as I wish I had, but I'm starting with what I know, and learning from as many experienced DMs and players as possible.

You asked earlier why I was using D&D 3.5 as a chassis? Simply put, I'm really not, but I'm starting with what I know, with things that have already been tested and designed and I'm tweaking them. This is a lot more controllable than building from scratch. Because to be honest, there are things I rather about 3.5. The skill system for example, works really well for what it needs to do. But I'm the guy who got tired of fighters being able to take 30 arrows to the face, and I got tired of how routine combat seemed. Making a system that is more lethal stems from a desire for combat to feel intense and visceral, and I know it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Some of the things you criticized just don't make sense now that I mention it. Taking away the cleric class is deleting more layers of complexity than it is adding, and healing is going to be too limited to be a factor I can't control. I'm guessing I should also go ahead and make it clear that I'm not a cocky twit who thinks his ideas are better than everyone else's. I don't actually think I know what I'm doing. I'm just doing the best I can.

Now regardless of your nonconstructive criticism, I am going to design this game, and I need criticism from people who can find the holes. If you'd like to do that, that would be greatly appreciated. If not, then I kindly request you to take your banter to someone who actually wants to hear it.

You can deride me as digging my own grave, or you can pick up a shovel and help me build a really awesome underground lair. Your choice really.