Pacific Rim-Not a Spambot

[turkishproverb]

So then. Just got back from an early screening.

Pacific Rim: This movie was great. A good balance of action, humor and drama. Even horrific at times. Certainly the best movie I've seen in theaters this year. The only real oddity was the non-stop rain in the action scenes.

[Flickerdart]

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[Carry2]

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I reckon that if it can put up fifteen minutes of passable conversation, it probably deserves citizenship.

Anyways. Have not seen movie yet, but am tentatively planning to go see. Guillermo del Toro is usually a safe bet.

[turkishproverb]

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overlooks inquiry.


I reckon that if it can put up fifteen minutes of passable conversation, it probably deserves citizenship.

Anyways. Have not seen movie yet, but am tentatively planning to go see. Guillermo del Toro is usually a safe bet.

Citzenship where?

And you'll like it. Not Del-Toro's most thoughtful movie, but has far more character and thematic stuff than it's been given credit for.

So then: Pacific Rim: Awesome movie or Awesomer movie? :smallbiggrin:

[MLai]

I saw the 3D version. My opinion is Awesomer Movie, 3D. This is coming from a guy who has neutral opinion on Del Toro's director abilities, and who is as sick of his art direction as with Tim Burton's.

(1) Del Toro? Can he do big robot action??
Del Toro did right where Michael Bay did wrong. The robots all look solid and real, rather than the shapeless amoebas of jagged metal pieces that the butchered Transformers are. The action is similarly well-structured rather than incoherent. Even through all the rain, sea foam, and falling debris, you can tell what the robots and the kaiju are doing.

(2) Do the monsters have eyeballs on their hands or something?
No. The Kaijus do honour to their Japanese inspiration, IMO. I thought the Cloverfield Monster looked terrible. These ones looked decent, though definitely "American."

(3) Leave my brain at the door? How about my heart?
The former is a given. However I did find one emotionally evocative scene in the movie.
The little girl running uselessly down the street away from a Kaiju. I was friggin' tearing up. You could have replaced the Kaiju with anything else implacable, such as a tsunami wave or a tank column.
It was just a good scene to stir the imagination. But now that I think about it, the shoe seemed 5 sizes too large for her. Maybe it was her mom's shoe, and they wore matching shoes that day? :P

[Deathkeeper]

I can't go watch this movie for another 12 hours or possibly a whole day and it's killing me.
And unfortunately all my mech-fan friends are out of town.

[Fjolnir]

I am seeing this in about 4 hours in Imax, I figured if I was to see a rediculous movie with big things beating on other big things it might as well be on one of the largest screens in the area (there is a drive-in with a larger screen in my state but my wife is working tonight)

[tbok1992]

I consider it my duty as a nerd to see this thing. I also hope that, if it's successful, it can get the Eva movie out of development hell.

Because an Evangelion movie by Darren Aronofski would be exquisite, since Eva's more a psychological/Lovecraftian horror movie than an action flick. Yes.

[Hopeless]

I consider it my duty as a nerd to see this thing. I also hope that, if it's successful, it can get the Eva movie out of development hell.

Because an Evangelion movie by Darren Aronofski would be exquisite, since Eva's more a psychological/Lovecraftian horror movie than an action flick. Yes.

Not really interested in an Evangelion movie but am interested in seeing this.

Will this be even more successful than the Man of Steel movie (with less criticisms to boot!:smallamused:?) but is it too much to hope a certain Mountains of Madness might be back on the cards?:smallbiggrin:

[Giggling Ghast]

Good see discussion by not spambots

Excited about Jaegers and nuke the Kaiju Del Tero synopsis not even in the fingernails

See movie free here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vKz7WnU83E) free virus free

[The Glyphstone]

Good see discussion by not spambots

Excited about Jaegers and nuke the Kaiju Del Tero synopsis not even in the fingernails

See movie free here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vKz7WnU83E) free virus free

Trigger...finger....so....itchy....

[JoshL]

Will this be even more successful than the Man of Steel movie (with less criticisms to boot!:smallamused:?) but is it too much to hope a certain Mountains of Madness might be back on the cards?:smallbiggrin:

This is exactly my hope. Fingers crossed! That said, I wouldn't complain about another Hellboy, and the most recent rumor I've heard (possibility of Slaughterhouse Five, screenplay by Charlie Kaufman!) would be pretty awesome too.

[tensai_oni]

Pacific Rim is explicitly NOT Evangelion-inspired. Del Toro decided not to watch Evangelion until he's done with the movie, on purpose. To avoid being influenced by it.

He actually brought up Patlabor as a source of inspiration instead. Which is surprising because Patlabor mecha are 10% of the Jaggers' size and they fight criminals, not giant monsters.

[Bhu]

So then. Just got back from an early screening.

Pacific Rim: This movie was great. A good balance of action, humor and drama. Even horrific at times. Certainly the best movie I've seen in theaters this year. The only real oddity was the non-stop rain in the action scenes.

Is not oddity, is tradition. Kaiju were originally puppets or suits with wires attached. The easiest way to film their fight scenes was at night, twilight, or in the rain to keep things as realistic as they could.

Make sure to stay past the credits!

it has a nice lovecraftian touch too.




(2) Do the monsters have eyeballs on their hands or something?
No. The Kaijus do honour to their Japanese inspiration, IMO. I thought the Cloverfield Monster looked terrible. These ones looked decent, though definitely "American."

It's a mix of american and japanese. Traditionally Japanese Kaiju come in giant animals or dinosaurs (Kong, Anguirus, Mothra, Rodan, Godzilla), animals with some alien features or powers (Barugon, Guiron, Zigra), or completely alien (Hedorah, most sentai critters) with the occasional robot. Out of the Pacific Rim Kaiju:
Leatherback is an obvious riff on a gorilla/leatherback turtle with some alien features. Raiju is crocodilian. Scunners head looks vaguely like a Hammerhead Sharks. Knifehead has some obvious references to Guiron and Zigra (and hence japanese Goblin sharks). They're all a mash of some animal, Cloverfield, and some vaguely lovecraftian references too. The fact that they're incredibly toxic and destroy the environment also reference a long running trope in Kaiju movies of environmental pollution.

[Fjolnir]

This was a very well put together movie, it had a couple of issues that are kind of spoilerish so I will address them in a different thread once the movie is further out the door.

I liked that they paved right through the origin stuff, there is very little "amazing scientist" stuff ala Independance Day, and while the plot is somewhat predictable the cast carries it well.

Definitely worth seeing in 3d and Imax, it created a cool scale to the picture that only helped it. There were also some really cool touches that really made the movie cool soundwise as well.

[Fjolnir]

Is not oddity, is tradition. Kaiju were originally puppets or suits with wires attached. The easiest way to film their fight scenes was at night, twilight, or in the rain to keep things as realistic as they could.

Leatherback is an obvious riff on a gorilla/leatherback turtle with some alien features. Raiju is crocodilian. Scunners head looks vaguely like a Hammerhead Sharks. Knifehead has some obvious references to Guiron and Zigra (and hence japanese Goblin sharks). They're all a mash of some animal, Cloverfield, and some vaguely lovecraftian references too. The fact that they're incredibly toxic and destroy the environment also reference a long running trope in Kaiju movies of environmental pollution.


I figured it would also help to hide CGI artifacts as well

[turkishproverb]

I saw the 3D version. My opinion is Awesomer Movie, 3D. This is coming from a guy who has neutral opinion on Del Toro's director abilities, and who is as sick of his art direction as with Tim Burton's.

You have chosen...wisely.




(3) Leave my brain at the door? How about my heart?
The former is a given. However I did find one emotionally evocative scene in the movie.

The little girl running uselessly down the street away from a Kaiju. I was friggin' tearing up. You could have replaced the Kaiju with anything else implacable, such as a tsunami wave or a tank column.
It was just a good scene to stir the imagination. But now that I think about it, the shoe seemed 5 sizes too large for her. Maybe it was her mom's shoe, and they wore matching shoes that day? :P
Disagree on brain. There's some stuff you can put thought into on the movie.

That was a very touching moment. visceral. I thought the brother's death was quite powerful, if brief, as well. Evoked many war movies, where there is the shock when the man next to you dies horribly.
Maybe she had big feet as a kid? :smallconfused:




Is not oddity, is tradition. Kaiju were originally puppets or suits with wires attached. The easiest way to film their fight scenes was at night, twilight, or in the rain to keep things as realistic as they could.

So you're saying you think it was Homage? Interesting. Mind, I disagree on the frequency. I've got racks of Kaiju movies with swaths of monster footage in daylight or at least not raining. Many of them classics.


I figured it would also help to hide CGI artifacts as well

That would not surprise me.

[Scowling Dragon]

I consider it my duty as a nerd to see this thing. I also hope that, if it's successful, it can get the Eva movie out of development hell.


I can see the reviews now:

Rant/

"Well the first third was quite good, with a more realistic look at Giant robots, but then it got really confused (And Confusing) and pretentious. The characters got annoying, and the philosophy was done really poorly. Also the plot twists where laughable, and hilariously overcomplicated. Overall, I don't get what its trying too say

3/10"

/Rant

[Deathkeeper]

I can see the reviews now:

Rant/

"Well the first third was quite good, with a more realistic look at Giant robots, but then it got really confused (And Confusing) and pretentious. The characters got annoying, and the philosophy was done really poorly. Also the plot twists where laughable, and hilariously overcomplicated. Overall, I don't get what its trying too say

3/10"

/Rant

Ha, that's implying Shinji could go a whole third of a movie without getting annoying to most people.

[Jayngfet]

So I saw this movie.

Holy crap.

Holy crap!

This movie was so incredibly great. It was the movie. It had literally everything you could ask for in an action movie.

I can't even form coherent descriptions of the scenes because I can't even talk without remembering how great they are and breaking down in tears and remembering how awesome they were.

Everyone needs to see this movie right now.

[INoKnowNames]

So I saw this movie.

Holy crap.

Holy crap!

This movie was so incredibly great. It was the movie. It had literally everything you could ask for in an action movie.

I can't even form coherent descriptions of the scenes because I can't even talk without remembering how great they are and breaking down in tears and remembering how awesome they were.

Everyone needs to see this movie right now.

****ing Seconded.

I've seen Star Trek, Man of Steel, and World War Z recently among other "thriller" movies, trying to find a movie that might even remotely compare to Iron Man 3 (my current former favorite movie). Up until today, I've been disappointed, if mildly entertained by Man of Steel.

Today's my Birthday, so my brother offered to pay for us to see Pacific Rim.

I just got back from seeing it, and I'm still so HYPE. SO HYPE! IT WAS -SO- FREAKING GOOD!

The story is explainable without -drowning- you in exposition, the characters are stereotypical but in a "we mean for them to be" kinda way, the sub plots all make sense and fully tie into what's going on.

THE SOUND TRACK IS TO -DIE- FOR. THE ACTION IS TO DIE FOR. AND THE VISUALS ARE TO DIE FOR. -THIS- IS -THE- NEW GOLD STANDARD FOR -ACTION- MOVIES. This is -the- first movie I've seen this summer that I can say with a straight face (and not feel like a heretic) that I enjoyed over Iron Man 3.

IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THIS MOVIE, ARE A SELF DESCRIBED FAN OF ACTION OR MONSTER MOVIES, AND ARE SEEING THIS MESSAGE, YOU ARE DOING YOURSELF A MASSIVE INJUSTICE. THE ONLY EXCUSE YOU HAVE IS THAT YOU ARE VIEWING THIS FROM A MOBILE DEVICE, AND ARE CURRENTLY ON YOUR WAY TO YOUR NEAREST THEATRE TO SEE THIS MOVIE. GO SEE IT. GO SEE IT RIGHT NOW. OH MY -GOD- GO SEE PACIFIC RIM.

You know the worst thing about this movie? Most movies get licensed video game adaptations, and most of those suck. And that means that there's a chance that this movie's going to get a sucky video game adaptation. And it deserves so much more.

[Jayngfet]

\
You know the worst thing about this movie? Most movies get licensed video game adaptations, and most of those suck. And that means that there's a chance that this movie's going to get a sucky video game adaptation. And it deserves so much more.

Nope. Del Toro has said if there's a game he's specifically going to avoid that and that he's going to personally work on it to make sure it's going to add to the universe and be a good product in it's own right. Kind of like how the tie-in comic took place in a different place on the timeline and mostly featured a separate Jaeger duo with the main cast only showing up as newbies towards the end.

There IS going to be a fighting game on XBLA featuring all the Jaegers and all the Kaiju plus a few others that only had brief appearances, but it's only a 5-10 dollar thing that's not meant to be a major AAA companion.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

I refuse to watch this movie on the principle that the trailer got me super excited that it was a Call of Cthulu movie during the first minute, and then revealed itself to be nothing more than a mech movie in the second. :smallannoyed:

[Jayngfet]

I refuse to watch this movie on the principle that the trailer got me super excited that it was a Call of Cthulu movie during the first minute, and then revealed itself to be nothing more than a mech movie in the second. :smallannoyed:

There are several angry things I wish to say, but I'm honestly as much sad as mad right now.

You're refusing to watch what is without a doubt the greatest movie of the year because of the fact that you made a thirty second misconception?

Nevermind that Del Toro WANTS to make that movie, but if he flops at the box office then he can't exactly do any more passion projects?

You aren't just hurting yourself. What you're doing is hurting like five different fandoms around you.

[INoKnowNames]

Nope. Del Toro has said if there's a game he's specifically going to avoid that and that he's going to personally work on it to make sure it's going to add to the universe and be a good product in it's own right. Kind of like how the tie-in comic took place in a different place on the timeline and mostly featured a separate Jaeger duo with the main cast only showing up as newbies towards the end.

There IS going to be a fighting game on XBLA featuring all the Jaegers and all the Kaiju plus a few others that only had brief appearances, but it's only a 5-10 dollar thing that's not meant to be a major AAA companion.

... well I'll be damned. My Xbox broke and we weren't considering getting another one. I now have reason to keep my options open.

[ShadowFireLance]

I'm crying right now, My Brother and I were supposed to go...But He had to help his friend, and has the only car...the movie theater is 11+ miles away. :smallfrown:

[turkishproverb]

So I saw this movie.

Holy crap.

Holy crap!

This movie was so incredibly great. It was the movie. It had literally everything you could ask for in an action movie.

I can't even form coherent descriptions of the scenes because I can't even talk without remembering how great they are and breaking down in tears and remembering how awesome they were.

Everyone needs to see this movie right now.[/[QUOTE]


So then, I'm guessing that's another vote for "Awesomer"?

[QUOTE=INoKnowNames;15609412]IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THIS MOVIE, ARE A SELF DESCRIBED FAN OF ACTION OR MONSTER MOVIES, AND ARE SEEING THIS MESSAGE, YOU ARE DOING YOURSELF A MASSIVE INJUSTICE. THE ONLY EXCUSE YOU HAVE IS THAT YOU ARE VIEWING THIS FROM A MOBILE DEVICE, AND ARE CURRENTLY ON YOUR WAY TO YOUR NEAREST THEATRE TO SEE THIS MOVIE. GO SEE IT. GO SEE IT RIGHT NOW. OH MY -GOD- GO SEE PACIFIC RIM.

...um...wow. Well put.


I refuse to watch this movie on the principle that the trailer got me super excited that it was a Call of Cthulu movie during the first minute, and then revealed itself to be nothing more than a mech movie in the second. :smallannoyed:

...I'm not going to get upset that you're this upset about misinterpreting a trailer. Instead, I'll point something out. If this movie succeeds, he might make at the Mountains of Madness. If it doesn't, he probably never will.


I'm crying right now, My Brother and I were supposed to go...But He had to help his friend, and has the only car...the movie theater is 11+ miles away. :smallfrown:

*Hugs* There's always tomorrow. :smallsmile:

[INoKnowNames]

I'm crying right now, My Brother and I were supposed to go...But He had to help his friend, and has the only car...the movie theater is 11+ miles away. :smallfrown:

Wow... you of all people would enjoy the heck out of this movie... I'm so sorry for you.

[ShadowFireLance]

Wow... you of all people would enjoy the heck out of this movie... I'm so sorry for you.


I know I would, I saw the preview for it when I saw the Hobbit on Opening day, and all my friends looked at me at the same time. :smallfrown: So...Sad...:smallfrown:

[Deathkeeper]

My mind is reeling. I mean, it's reeling. There were literally like, two nitpicks that I made fun of, and that was like, the fact that the lead robot got so much of the majority of the action. Everything else was a tail-kicking masterpiece of AWESOME. Honestly it was everything that I hoped it would be, and I was NOT expecting the theme to be as awesome as it was.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

There are several angry things I wish to say, but I'm honestly as much sad as mad right now.

You're refusing to watch what is without a doubt the greatest movie of the year because of the fact that you made a thirty second misconception?

Nevermind that Del Toro WANTS to make that movie, but if he flops at the box office then he can't exactly do any more passion projects?

You aren't just hurting yourself. What you're doing is hurting like five different fandoms around you.
Well, secondarily, I don't like mechas or thoughtless action flicks, but those are just my own preferences. So I probably wouldn't have watched it anyway, but because I didn't like the trailer I specifically won't. So I'm not really harming the movie/fandoms any more than I would have otherwise?

[Bhu]

I refuse to watch this movie on the principle that the trailer got me super excited that it was a Call of Cthulu movie during the first minute, and then revealed itself to be nothing more than a mech movie in the second. :smallannoyed:

There is plenty of Lovecraftian implication in this film, though explaining it in full would require massive spoilers, and it's a little early for those yet...

I sometimes felt it was more an homage to Go Nagai than Kaiju films. Gipsy Dangers weapons are ripped almost straight from series like Mazinger. Really it pulls influences from so many places it would be hard to figure them all out on one viewing.

It is a very passionate film that openly embraces the science fantasy genre with a little darkness thrown in for good measure,



Well, secondarily, I don't like mechas or thoughtless action flicks, but those are just my own preferences. So I probably wouldn't have watched it anyway, but because I didn't like the trailer I specifically won't. So I'm not really harming the movie/fandoms any more than I would have otherwise?


In defense of the filmmakers, they couldn't introduce much of anything new in this first film. The Kaiju and super robot genres have a balance they need to walk between the human element and the monsters. Too much of the human element, and people get pissed cause they paid to see giant critters wrassle. Too little and people have no characters to empathize with, and they realize they're just watching two big puppets punch each other. Del Toro realized this, but I don't think Travis Beacham does. Beacham did most of the writing, and his last big film was the Clash of the Titans remake, which as you'll recall was ripped for cookie cutter characters who were devoid of most emotion or expression beyond pain or anger (along with several other problems)

Del Toro set a high bar to pass with this. He had to have lots of time to do the characters and backstory to draw people in and keep them interested and also provide for giant critter fighting. But he also wanted to invent a whole world and it's mythology, and that requires a lot of exposition (which audiences are sometimes notorious for hating). With the 2+ hour time limit he had, I think he did just about as good as he could do. If it becomes a franchise they can do new stuff if the studio will let them. But overall, this was well done. Yes there are lots of well worn tropes, but it's an homage to genres that began in the 20's (Lovecraft), the 50's (Kaiju), and the 60's (Super Robots).

The acting doesn't have any moments that make you flinch, the effects are about as good as they could be, etc. If it has any flaws it's that he didn't introduce any thing new to the genre, but since this was intended as an homage and he was world building I don't think he had time. Sequels may provide that.

[Deathkeeper]

Well, secondarily, I don't like mechas or thoughtless action flicks, but those are just my own preferences. So I probably wouldn't have watched it anyway, but because I didn't like the trailer I specifically won't. So I'm not really harming the movie/fandoms any more than I would have otherwise?

Honestly, I wouldn't call it a thoughtless flick. Yes, the plot is fairly predictable, but there is still story and character that go beyond normal action movie levels, IMO.

[Jayngfet]

I sometimes felt it was more an homage to Go Nagai than Kaiju films. Gipsy Dangers weapons are ripped almost straight from series like Mazinger. Really it pulls influences from so many places it would be hard to figure them all out on one viewing.

I feel that a number of things were blatantly modeled after oldschool Dynamic brand mecha like Mazinger.

Like that bridge operator dude with the giant 70's sideburns and suspenders. He looked like he walked out of the set of a Getter Robo movie and didn't realize he was lost. From the minute he was on screen early in the movie I could tell this would be great, because Del Toro was from that point obviously using the best of the Mecha genres without clinging so hard they look awkward and unfitting.

I mean, Mako Mori is a slightly awkward blue haired japanese chick with emotional issues, but she's not meant to be a Rei Ayanami clone and all of those elements aren't copied blindly so much as taken apart, examined, and put back together in a way that's recognizable from where it started from but still fit within the medium of film and within the film itself.


Every character is a recognizable archetype mecha fans have probably seen a dozen or more times but they're all so well put together and interact so perfectly and are executed so brilliantly you can't really fault Del Toro for these decisions. I mean the costuming is so perfect to evocative and the props so well designed and placed and the little traits so well done that you can pick them all out in a crowd minutes or even hours before they become significant.

That's not an exaggeration, there's a big establishing shot of the shatterdome and you can see a bunch of characters and props and most of them have a certain walk or carry certain objects and are grouped in certain ways and you can tell every single one of them has their own little story and some of them appear to be focused on later, while other extras keep interacting in the background to establish their relationships with themselves and other minor characters in ways that make it obvious they're the same people who are just living their lives, only their lives involve punching dinosaur gorillas in the mouth for a living.

The Kaiju and Mecha are also just as intricate. During some of Otachi's scenes you can see how this particular Kaiju fits together and how this specific monster relates to all the others without being told, based on stuff you learned earlier in the movie, or just by how she moves during certain scenes when under battle damage to imply how the same move would work when done properly. The individual Mecha also have that same thing. Cherno Alpha has a number of moving parts that only move a certain way to express certain emotions or give off certain functions, and it's a minor Jaeger, with the ones getting more screentime having even more little intricacies that remain consistent the whole way through.

Del Toro's work on the cockpit is probably a literal masterpiece and should be the gold standard for big budget hollywood design. Here's a featurette (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcsFMTjgsCM) to show the nitty gritty of how it was done, and it sure as hell pays off in the final product. The set of the cockpit has weight and feeling and consistency and itself becomes a source of drama and feeling towards the end that only works as well as it does due to the consistent attention to detail and phenomenal camera work done on it. Everything in the individual cockpits is timed perfectly and gives off all the right feelings at all the right times. You can feel the damage, you can feel which bits are still running. In fact towards the end:

When the mecha crashes through the breach and confronts the boss Kaiju

everything is just so perfectly done that even though this is basically an inhuman monster indirectly interacting with an inanimate object, there's a good sense of tension and emotion.

I have to stop, because I'm gushing uncontrollably and I can literally talk for days about how amazing this is at every level.

[MLai]

I think the torrential sheets of rain help produce a sense of scale when you're watching it in 3D.

My only problem with the Kaijus is that they're all leathery, and none of them were scaly or spiny like many of the glory-days Jpnese Kaijus. I think the crabby Kaiju in the girl's flashback was... but he didn't get much action.

If a game is to be made out of this... I'd want it in cockpit view. Any other viewpoint would not do justice to the epic sense of scale that giant robots vs kaijus should properly convey. If it's done as a normal fighting game I'm gonna cry. If it has combos, I'd murder someone.

I'm crying right now, My Brother and I were supposed to go...But He had to help his friend, and has the only car...the movie theater is 11+ miles away. :smallfrown:
WALK.
(You can film your epic journey as a documentary ala Survivorman... or Blair Witch Project.)

[Razanir]

Prove that you're not a spambot:
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http://webloggerz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/captcha-code.jpg

That was the right answer, right? RIGHT?!

[warty goblin]

Saw it. Was bored. Definitely not worth the four mile walk. Should have gone with World War Z instead.

[ShadowFireLance]

WALK.
(You can film your epic journey as a documentary ala Survivorman... or Blair Witch Project.)

I would have already, if it wasn't almost midnight here...:smallsigh:

[Jayngfet]

Saw it. Was bored. Definitely not worth the four mile walk. Should have gone with World War Z instead.

...what? How could you possibly be bored?

I mean what about that bit with Otachi in space? What about the fight in the dockyard? I mean the free for all in the Hong Kong bay? The fight in the breach with the wall of water?

There were so damn many fight scenes with such variation that you being bored should be physically impossible?

[turkishproverb]

Saw it. Was bored. Definitely not worth the four mile walk. Should have gone with World War Z instead.

I...what?

Well, I'll be nice, and just say that World War Z was a MUCH WORSE FILM.

[INoKnowNames]

Quite honestly, I can only assume that he's being sarcastic or purposefully messing with us. I actually fell asleep during World War Z, baring the few "jump scares"...

[warty goblin]

...what? How could you possibly be bored?

I mean what about that bit with Otachi in space? What about the fight in the dockyard? I mean the free for all in the Hong Kong bay? The fight in the breach with the wall of water?

There were so damn many fight scenes with such variation that you being bored should be physically impossible?

There was a lot of big things punching each other, but it felt really, really repetitious, at least to me. Lots of punching and throwing through buildings, none of which seemed to do anything serious to either combatant. Occasionally one side or the other uses a special attack that, despite being really useful seeming, was never used before and isn't used ever again. Maybe their combo meter wasn't full yet.

That alone isn't necessarily fatal. In combination with a script set to full cliche-o-matic autopilot, cardboard characters and what I guess was supposed to be a plot though, and I'm yawning. The phrase 'sound and fury, signifying nothing' drifted across my mind more than once in the theater.

[Deathkeeper]

There was a lot of big things punching each other, but it felt really, really repetitious, at least to me. Lots of punching and throwing through buildings, none of which seemed to do anything serious to either combatant. Occasionally one side or the other uses a special attack that, despite being really useful seeming, was never used before and isn't used ever again. Maybe their combo meter wasn't full yet.

That alone isn't necessarily fatal. In combination with a script set to full cliche-o-matic autopilot, cardboard characters and what I guess was supposed to be a plot though, and I'm yawning. The phrase 'sound and fury, signifying nothing' drifted across my mind more than once in the theater.

The special attack of Gypsy's was a cannon, which is used in all three fights.save for the part where it's not in a place where you can use guns. The Kaiju all use their abilities multiple times except one, which was just to save time since it wouldn't have done anything, as was explained.
And you'd rather see WWZ, which by all reviews had even more cardboard characters, and consisted entirely of "infected run at survivors, some get shot" for two hours?

[Jayngfet]

There was a lot of big things punching each other, but it felt really, really repetitious, at least to me. Lots of punching and throwing through buildings, none of which seemed to do anything serious to either combatant. Occasionally one side or the other uses a special attack that, despite being really useful seeming, was never used before and isn't used ever again. Maybe their combo meter wasn't full yet.[//QUOTE]

Plasma canon was used in three fights. Striker uses it's chest rockets twice. Chainsword is used twice. Chest beam is used twice. Every other time they weren't in the proper range/situation for that specific weapon. The Kaiju weapons are either used multiple times or attacked in ways that prevent them from using that attack multiple times.

Throwing through buildings happens like, twice. Most of the fights don't even happen in cities.

[QUOTE]
That alone isn't necessarily fatal. In combination with a script set to full cliche-o-matic autopilot, cardboard characters and what I guess was supposed to be a plot though, and I'm yawning. The phrase 'sound and fury, signifying nothing' drifted across my mind more than once in the theater.

I've already made a huge essay up there about why this wasn't a bad thing and why those elements were well crafted.

Though given you'd rather see an awful movie instead, that you didn't actually pay attention to obvious major details in the fight scenes you didn't like, I'm going to say the problem here is you.

[MLai]

I'm not sure why you would watch a movie which you know going in is all about the super-robots-vs-giant-kaiju trope, when you obviously have no love for said trope at all. There are other movies playing: chick flicks, CGI comedy for children, crime dramas, whatever. The Pacific Rim trailers were in no way misleading.

I watched and was disappointed by WWZ, but that's because the movie itself sucked. Not because I don't like zombies, and not because I expected faithfulness to the book.

[warty goblin]

I'm not sure why you would watch a movie which you know going in is all about the super-robots-vs-giant-kaiju trope, when you obviously have no love for said trope at all. There are other movies playing: chick flicks, CGI comedy for children, crime dramas, whatever. The Pacific Rim trailers were in no way misleading.

I went to see it because I thought there was a good chance it would be a fun way to spend my evening. I've liked things that del Toro has directed in the past, and it got good reviews. It turned out not to be worth the bother, but I hardly think the inference was unreasonable on my part.

And isn't it generally the hallmark of a good movie if you like it even if you don't have massive pre-existing affection for that specific genre? I'm not generally fond of super-hero movies for instance, but I still think Hellboy's a fine film and good way to spend an evening. Same with the first two Raimi Spiderman movies.


I watched and was disappointed by WWZ, but that's because the movie itself sucked. Not because I don't like zombies, and not because I expected faithfulness to the book.
I can't say if WWZ actually is good, since I haven't seen it yet, Maybe later this week, since my summer class is over and I've got sod-all to do of an evening. It was however recommended to me by somebody whose taste in films I generally share.

[Jayngfet]

And isn't it generally the hallmark of a good movie if you like it even if you don't have massive pre-existing affection for that specific genre? I'm not generally fond of super-hero movies for instance, but I still think Hellboy's a fine film and good way to spend an evening. Same with the first two Raimi Spiderman movies.


Well I can't do much for you there personally, since I'm the walking definition of "pre existing knowledge" as far as this goes, and that also applies to half this forum.

But everybody else in the theater I saw this in was impressed. Like literally everybody was gasping at the top of their lungs, jaws hanging down, cheering at the best bits impressed. I mean granted I've seen audiences get excited for mediocre movies, but at the same time the audience was excited.

[Deathkeeper]

Well I can't do much for you there personally, since I'm the walking definition of "pre existing knowledge" as far as this goes, and that also applies to half this forum.

But everybody else in the theater I saw this in was impressed. Like literally everybody was gasping at the top of their lungs, jaws hanging down, cheering at the best bits impressed. I mean granted I've seen audiences get excited for mediocre movies, but at the same time the audience was excited.

Same here. Everyone clapped at the ending, and plenty were either kids in their early teens or their parents, who I doubt were watching anime or Godzilla flicks beforehand.

[ShadowFireLance]

9 hours. Nine. Short. Hours. Before i see this glorious film. It's almost 2 Am.
Sleep is for the weak. But it makes time pass quicker, So i'm all for it. :smallbiggrin:

[Muz]

Saw it. Liked it a lot. It's a well-made movie in exactly the way that Transformers isn't. I'm a bit tired now, being that it's past midnight and I just got back from seeing it after a long day, so I'll leave you with just six more words:
Where is my GOD DAMNED SHOE?!?! :smallbiggrin:

[Darthteej]

I'm just gonna leave this here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-kYiDbG39s) Drove into the theater parking lot blaring it out my windows.

[huttj509]

I'm just gonna leave this here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-kYiDbG39s) Drove into the theater parking lot blaring it out my windows.

I got an intro commercial featuring "Fly me to the moon," and was thinking "cast in the name of God, ye not guilty" when I saw some of the Jaegar designs. That's where my mind was going, personally. :-)

Well, and "I'll form the head!"

[Fjolnir]

I got a real heavy duty Big O vibe from Gipsy Danger, specifically the head elevator hookup thing and the rocket punch. since we are kind of using spoilers here, I am going to bring up my 2 major gripes with the film

1: NOBODY tried throwing a big hunk of kaiju carcass through the portal in a 14 year period?! Seriously, it would have been pretty high on my list of things to try once it was established that non kaiju get bounced out and stay in realspace instead. 2: why is mission control still shouting orders once the ship enters the portal? From the description of the portal, communications should have gone dark with Gipsy once it crossed the breach, there should have been a tension moment for the mission, similar to the moon missions where the astronauts went to the dark side and there was a communications blackout.

[MLai]

Since I'm more of a Kaiju man myself, I wished that the beasts had more personality rather than just being fire-and-forget one-way biological weapons.

Specifically, I wished that the movie played more with the Moby **** trope. The Kaiju at the beginning could have gotten away after eating protag's brother, maybe missing half its face or an eye. And it should be an albino, i.e. different color from the rest in the movie. The movie will assume the damn thing died in an ocean trench somewhere.

Then at the end of the movie, the category 5 Kaiju that emerges from the Breach is the albino, now grown bigger but still retaining the old battle scars.

[Deathkeeper]

I got a real heavy duty Big O vibe from Gipsy Danger, specifically the head elevator hookup thing and the rocket punch. since we are kind of using spoilers here, I am going to bring up my 2 major gripes with the film

1: NOBODY tried throwing a big hunk of kaiju carcass through the portal in a 14 year period?! Seriously, it would have been pretty high on my list of things to try once it was established that non kaiju get bounced out and stay in realspace instead. 2: why is mission control still shouting orders once the ship enters the portal? From the description of the portal, communications should have gone dark with Gipsy once it crossed the breach, there should have been a tension moment for the mission, similar to the moon missions where the astronauts went to the dark side and there was a communications blackout.

they never actually tried putting a Jaeger through it, they just shot missiles, most of the time.
And yes that part was one of the few things that stuck out to me.

[Jayngfet]

they never actually tried putting a Jaeger through it, they just shot missiles, most of the time.
And yes that part was one of the few things that stuck out to me.

They were working under different assumptions and requirements.

They were under the assumption that Kaiju are just random monsters crossing through a natural phenominon that CAN'T go two ways yet. Once me show up the hole would be big enough to cross both ways.

Hence why they let Chau take all the remains. Dude had the body stripping process started up within hours and probably would be done by days end with his crews size.

They didn't know that the Kaiju were sent by a source for a specific reason and as such they lost the resources needed to even make that guess.

[Deathkeeper]

They were working under different assumptions and requirements.

They were under the assumption that Kaiju are just random monsters crossing through a natural phenominon that CAN'T go two ways yet. Once me show up the hole would be big enough to cross both ways.

Hence why they let Chau take all the remains. Dude had the body stripping process started up within hours and probably would be done by days end with his crews size.

They didn't know that the Kaiju were sent by a source for a specific reason and as such they lost the resources needed to even make that guess.
Oh I know that. The "Stuck out" comment was about the signals.
PS- just got the trial for the XBLA game...it's actually pretty fun.

[Fjolnir]

Even if they were free roaming interdimensional eldritch horrors:
once try A, B, and C fail you might assume they are biologically rift capable and put a little research into kaiju/rift interaction since you KNOW they come through the rift...

[Fjolnir]

There was a romance aspect, but it was more of a "I would jump on that, but there are priorities" thing and only depicted as a mutual attraction, which are both better than the standard love polygon arrangements.

[MLai]

What do you mean no sappy misplaced romance plot? {scrubbed}

If you mean "there was no screentime wasted for a bed scene," then yeah.

[Hopeless]

I got a real heavy duty Big O vibe from Gipsy Danger, specifically the head elevator hookup thing and the rocket punch. since we are kind of using spoilers here, I am going to bring up my 2 major gripes with the film

1: NOBODY tried throwing a big hunk of kaiju carcass through the portal in a 14 year period?! Seriously, it would have been pretty high on my list of things to try once it was established that non kaiju get bounced out and stay in realspace instead. 2: why is mission control still shouting orders once the ship enters the portal? From the description of the portal, communications should have gone dark with Gipsy once it crossed the breach, there should have been a tension moment for the mission, similar to the moon missions where the astronauts went to the dark side and there was a communications blackout.

Enjoyed it more than i expected, loved the bit near the end after all those movies where they employed propaganda or ruined it through bad writing it was a sincere pleasure to see this avoid the plotholes and come out pretty much an all round great movie!

They didn't find out about the Kaiju gene signature needed to go through the portal until late in the game.
However why didn't they routinely drop and replace depth charges designed to go off when the Kaiju come through said rift?
Might not take out the breach but it will weaken the kaiju, after all once they open it from the other side all it needed was to be detected and drop a nuclear mine down hopefully passing through the breach as the kaiju pops out on this side...

Now I'm going to have to pick up the graphic novel prelude, the novelisation of this movie and of course the soundtrack hopefully this will last me until they release this on dvd...:smallcool:

[Jayngfet]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

...but it wasn't a romance. As in, Del Toro explicitly said that wasn't going on. They aren't a couple, at least not explicitly. There may be some physical attraction, but even when they could show that this was a romance they don't. The only time Del Toro ever used the word "romantic" was when describing the overarching plot, and he was using the words other meaning. The only person who even implied that that was going on was a guy who was meant to be wrong about basically everything he said.

The only reason anybody sees a romance instead of the more familial affection that they were expecting a romance and were slotting in anything that happened into that category. Ralleigh and Mako aren't treated as a romantic couple so much as friends who stick up for each other even when everybody else hates them and care about each other a whole lot. I mean lets be honest, even if they were a couple they'd have had to have gotten together like ten minutes after introduction given how they interacted and nowhere around that or afterwords were they depicted as having gotten together so much as just having become friends.

[INoKnowNames]

I have two things to say.

First, Goblin, I owe you an apology. I may not agree with your opinion or viewpoint, but they're entirely valid, and far more reasonable than I initially was willing to give credit for; I'm sorry. That said, if you disliked Pacific Rim of all things, I implore you to be careful about -wasting- your money on World War Z. That, and it seems like you missed quite a few details in the fight scenes that actually did make sense.

And secondly, about the relationship; it's one that I could -see- turning into a Romance easily, but it's not one of Romance. There's a bond just as strong, but it's more about Trust than it is about humping. After all, how does one keep their mind perfectly synched with someone with boning in mind? That'd probably be as much of a distraction as the memories would have been. Plus, both of them have been pretty heavily traumatized by the fighting; the thing they saught out from one another wasn't intimacy but understanding, or so I felt.

[turkishproverb]

There was a romance aspect, but it was more of a "I would jump on that, but there are priorities" thing and only depicted as a mutual attraction, which are both better than the standard love polygon arrangements.


What do you mean no sappy misplaced romance plot? {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
If you mean "there was no screentime wasted for a bed scene," then yeah.

It was played in a way that could easily be seen as platonic.

[Gamerlord]

Just saw it an hour or so ago. Was pretty good, only issue I had was that I wish there was more screentime for the other Jaegers and their pilots.
EDIT: Well, one more issue: I find it really difficult to believe anyone would think that the best solution to dealing with giant monsters is to just put up a wall and cross your fingers. Best case scenario is that they waste a few hours punching through it. Did they really think it would just get bored and walk away?

[GloatingSwine]

...what? How could you possibly be bored?

I mean what about that bit with Otachi in space? What about the fight in the dockyard? I mean the free for all in the Hong Kong bay? The fight in the breach with the wall of water?

There were so damn many fight scenes with such variation that you being bored should be physically impossible?

You talked at length about how all the robits had loads of character of their own, but the actual characters were a bit neglected.

What the movie really needed was for the middle fight to be focused on Mako overcoming her memories, showing her faltering due to her trauma mixed with Blast Hardcheese's and overcoming that in the course of fighting the gorilla, and then them moving on to fight battra.

As it was, she basically goes from so incapacitated that she almost blows up the entire command staff due to relived trauma to fully combat capable in about five minutes.

Giant robits punching godzillas when done in anime is much faster and more fluid than here (because people will believe it when evas move like ninjas but not when it's pretending to be real at the same scale), and the choreography of mecha fights these days is way better than what Pacific Rim gave us, but if they'd focused on developing the characters and used that to sell the tension (not just will they punch the monster in time, but will this person rise to the challenge of her own mind and punch the monster) the fights would have been more engaging.

As it is, the movie is OK if you like giant monster city smashing, it does a good job of selling weight and impact (completely opposed to Transformers, which is terrible at that because of it's attempt in camerawork to simulate the combined effects of ADHD and Parkinson's disease), but it's not great, it has holes for things to go in that would make it great, but it isn't, because those things aren't in the holes.

[Sith_Happens]

It was played in a way that could easily be seen as platonic.

I didn't particularly see it that way, but that has less to do with the portrayal itself and more with the fact that I was really, really hoping for a "curb-stomp the kaiju through the Power of Love" bit. That's pretty much the only thing that would have made this movie any more perfect (if done well, of course).

[Deathkeeper]

Just saw it an hour or so ago. Was pretty good, only issue I had was that I wish there was more screentime for the other Jaegers and their pilots.
EDIT: Well, one more issue: I find it really difficult to believe anyone would think that the best solution to dealing with giant monsters is to just put up a wall and cross your fingers. Best case scenario is that they waste a few hours punching through it. Did they really think it would just get bored and walk away?

I think it was implied they were going to have turrets and defenses to take down Kaiju as they assaulted the wall, but it not being done they weren't installed yet or they just couldn't kill it in time.
That or it's sequel bait when we find out that the government was actually being mind-controlled by aliens who knew humans would beat up the Kaiju but trying to make them as soft for invasion as possible!

[Fjolnir]

It was played in a way that could easily be seen as platonic.

Until Beef McHarbody opens his mouth before they set off in the post Hong Kong bay scene, this is certainly the case.

[Hopeless]

I think it was implied they were going to have turrets and defenses to take down Kaiju as they assaulted the wall, but it not being done they weren't installed yet or they just couldn't kill it in time.
That or it's sequel bait when we find out that the government was actually being mind-controlled by aliens who knew humans would beat up the Kaiju but trying to make them as soft for invasion as possible!

Or more likely used them as convenient targets so they could finalise their own little hideaways since cancelling the jaeger program was seriously stupid but if they assumed the world was lost why spend their resources to save everybody when they could save themselves and use everybody else as a convenient big target since the Kaiju were singling out high populated areas, the top 5% of the wealthy and powerful don't really need to care about anybody else now do they?

Of course I'd love the sequel revealing how they avoid getting hunted down by the survivors after the remaining Jaeger's manage to seal the breach at the cost of their remaining units seemingly drawing the enemy away from everywhere else...

Of course politicians might claim it was all planned certainly will be interesting to see how the novelisation handles this... if they do go beyond the ending scene of the movie!

[paddyfool]

Overall, I really enjoyed this film. In particular, it was the perfect film for the end of an exam week, especially since it included at least one medic joke. 5/5 for entertainment, even if I kind of wished they varied the sound track a little more.

However, I have a few nitpicks. Of course, this is a film about giant mecha fighting giant alien monsters, but nevertheless...


Human tactics / Jaegers etc.

The whole business where you need two brains to take the strain of piloting a Jaeger makes precisely zero sense at all. But the implications were fun enough that it gets a solid pass :)

In the fight where the hero's brother dies, the home base seems to realise that they've strolled 7 miles offshore really, really late. What the heck are they doing if not monitoring the location of the one and only serious defensive asset they have at all times, via onboard GPS, an overhead helicopter, eyes on shore etc. etc.?

Air support... the only footage that was shown of this being tried had planes being used at ridiculously close range. And helicopters which simply sat and watched. Were air-to-ground missiles somehow magically rendered completely useless in this context?

The Russian and Chinese mechs (Cherno Alpha and Crimson Typhoon) went down like complete punks, to the point of seriously stretching credibility as regards the success of the plot-centric mech. And how come the pilots of Cherno Alpha didn't have some kind of air masks on? They're fighting a frigging sea monster at sea. Health and safety fail.

Aliens / Kaiju

Wait, they tried turning up on Earth back at the time of the dinosaurs? Does time work differently where they come from? And the anvilicious bit about our pollution xenoforming the planet for them rather suggests they're really, really bad at said xenoforming.

So... flipping forward to the present, they activate the rift, send through a great big thing that lumbers around, does some "exterminating", and is put down. Rinse, lather, repeat, for 10 years at least of the 14, learning from the encounter each time via their hive mind. OK... but why not send out many smaller scouting units? Why not build up a strike force of multiple kaiju on the far side of the rift rather than going in one at a time? Because then it wouldn't be a kaiju movie, I suppose... but eh. Still makes very little sense.

Minor detail
The flying kaiju did not convince as ever being able to get off the ground, never mind carry a mecha from a standing start. And how the heck did it get up to 50,000 ft so fast? Rule of cool, I suppose.

Those gloves did not look like they'd preserve enough fine touch to feel for someone's pulse. But maybe they're super-high-tech, so OK, fine. Still, to leap to the conclusion of "no pulse" when you don't find the carotid in 2 seconds of feeling? Hmm.

[Sith_Happens]

The only thing that really stood out to me as nitpick-worthy were the ~3 blink-and-you'll-miss-them lines in which the movie Fails Metallurgy Forever.

[GloatingSwine]

The Russian and Chinese mechs (Cherno Alpha and Crimson Typhoon) went down like complete punks, to the point of seriously stretching credibility as regards the success of the plot-centric mech. And how come the pilots of Cherno Alpha didn't have some kind of air masks on? They're fighting a frigging sea monster at sea. Health and safety fail.


Almost all the times we see a Jaegar seriously disabled it's by attacks to the head.

Which, quite frankly, is silly. If you're designing a giant robit that has to be human operated, you put the pilot in the safest location possible, and there are plenty of core locations that are just as far from a reactor in the chest as the head would be. It would make more sense for the pilot compartment to be in the stomach and just receive a sensor feed from the head.

I mean even Evas had the pilot in the back of the neck, so they couldn't be disabled from trivial attacks to a vulnerable extremity, just about all giant robits that aren't full on laugh in the face of physics super robots (and even some that are) put the pilot in a protected location.

[Jayngfet]

Almost all the times we see a Jaegar seriously disabled it's by attacks to the head.

Which, quite frankly, is silly. If you're designing a giant robit that has to be human operated, you put the pilot in the safest location possible, and there are plenty of core locations that are just as far from a reactor in the chest as the head would be. It would make more sense for the pilot compartment to be in the stomach and just receive a sensor feed from the head.

I mean even Evas had the pilot in the back of the neck, so they couldn't be disabled from trivial attacks to a vulnerable extremity, just about all giant robits that aren't full on laugh in the face of physics super robots (and even some that are) put the pilot in a protected location.

The pilots are connected via Neural Link and the head is obviously kinda important there. The body of a Jaeger generally conforms more to human proportion the further along in production it is. That's why Cherno Alpha was all janky and clunky and needed old school wires, while Gipsy Danger was more organic in terms of suit and innards and has a kind of throat under the floor, same as Striker Eureka. It'd make sense for the Pilot to NEED to be in the head.

In any case, I saw this movie a second time. Word of mouth is definitely this movie's friend. The earlier showings on first day weren't too thickly populated, but by Saturday evening even right up to showtime people were lining up to see this thing and the theater was packed with people of every age. They reacted just as awesomely as the first audience, possibly even more so since there were more people to gasp and cheer out loud at the good bits.

Kids were kind of freaked out at some of the stuff with Ron Pearlman, especially that last scene, but things moved so fast they didn't really have time to dwell on it. They definitely enjoyed it just as much as the hardcore audience who was watching it otherwise.


Knowing what happens let me sit back and appreciate the little details a bit more and I highly recommend that everyone else do the same thing. It makes the whole production feel so much more real. You can see the fighter-jet esque cheesecake decals on Gipsy Danger's collar in the early era, and the way it's vents on the chest opposite form an almost military-esque "badge". The Shatterdome scenes are really well put together in terms of being able to tell after a few minutes who's at what rank in which job at a glance, since every role has it's own uniform and unique accessories. Every Ranger has his or her own unique suit that has it's unique overall design, but also cool details painted on or fastened to it that references a trait of who they are personally(an Australian pilot has a picture of his dog on his suit for example). The pilots with less screentime show up pretty frequently in the background, and you can pick them out with ease in the crowd due to excellent costuming and acting on their part.

Charlie Hunnam has a unique kind of swagger that he plays during some of Raleighs moods that brings out the character of the part nicely, contrasting Pentecost's more regal stance and Mako's kind of understated trailing. Just walking down a hall even before they say anything you can get a feeling of their dynamic right off the bat and it's beautiful to see in action during the little moments. They may not be original by design but they play the hell out of their archetypes for everything they're worth and then some. Again, the lesser pilots show their own dynamics without needing to say a word. You can tell the triplets relationships and hobbies and dynamic with them just standing there holding one prop between them, and the way the Russian team works under pressure during the test scene says everything about them you need to know before they even move in their mech. Huge groups of people wind up feeling natural and manage to give off everything they need in some scenes without anybody actually opening their mouth or close ups on any of the hundred or so people there. The whole world is full of stuff like that, with unique costumes for a bunch of little factions and each one being lovingly crafted to look like it stepped out of the best kind of ridiculous Super Robot Anime.


The second act does drag on a bit. It MAY have been done a bit better but it still holds up enough to not totally lose you. However I am willing to admit that it could have been paced and written better than it was.


You talked at length about how all the robits had loads of character of their own, but the actual characters were a bit neglected.

What the movie really needed was for the middle fight to be focused on Mako overcoming her memories, showing her faltering due to her trauma mixed with Blast Hardcheese's and overcoming that in the course of fighting the gorilla, and then them moving on to fight battra.


There was the mess hall scene and the conversations after to show that. It was an issue that was cleared up between fights. It may have been done a bit better bit it was addressed. It's not exactly like they just showed up and instantly did awesome either. Leatherback smacked them around pretty hard and they needed to be rallied to actually do damage. That's not even worth spoilering because those scenes are in the damned trailers, and most of it from the very first day.



Giant robits punching godzillas when done in anime is much faster and more fluid than here (because people will believe it when evas move like ninjas but not when it's pretending to be real at the same scale), and the choreography of mecha fights these days is way better than what Pacific Rim gave us, but if they'd focused on developing the characters and used that to sell the tension (not just will they punch the monster in time, but will this person rise to the challenge of her own mind and punch the monster) the fights would have been more engaging.


Ok, you obviously weren't paying attention. The Jaeger aren't Eva's. Those differences aren't because live action isn't as good, since those scenes were about 95% animated anyway. That was because Del Toro was specifically making them heavier and slower and having more weight to them. They don't move like Ninjas because they aren't ninjas. This is a thing you can tell just by looking at them, and even if you didn't, it was something he straight up said over and over for like six months before this came out, if not a year.

As far as it goes, as a Mecha fan I'd put this movie above average. I don't mean the sense that a lot of people do where they say that to disguise a mediocre movie, I mean that it's straight up better than at least half of the mecha anime that have been produced.



As it is, the movie is OK if you like giant monster city smashing, it does a good job of selling weight and impact (completely opposed to Transformers, which is terrible at that because of it's attempt in camerawork to simulate the combined effects of ADHD and Parkinson's disease), but it's not great, it has holes for things to go in that would make it great, but it isn't, because those things aren't in the holes.

It has things it doesn't tell you outright, and expects you to figure out given what it shows you. It doesn't spell every single thing out because it trusts it's audience to infer from what it WAS shown how some of it fits together. Because it needs to, being reasonably lengthy already with a mountain of cut footage we haven't seen. They couldn't expand things much more than they already did because there straight up wasn't that much time.

You don't NEED Mako to be all indecisive and useless for twenty minutes, because there's enough time in universe implied through the movie and conversations between characters for her to work through it otherwise. You don't NEED them to stop and have every character monologue for 20 minutes, because they convey themselves through background interaction and stance and reaction enough for you to ideally get a feel for them as is. You don't need this movie to hold your hand, because it thinks you're a reasonable human being who can make educated guesses given the material it hands to you at various intervals.

Pacific Rim certainly isn't high art, but it's not a movie you should just turn your brain off when watching either, because it's a movie that expects you to pay attention from the start in order to get the consistency it has. It's not a perfect movie and there's probably a whole bunch of flaws we haven't brought up yet, but your flaws are not, as I see them, flaws. They're you not paying attention during certain scenes and blaming the movie for it.

[ShadowFireLance]

Alright, I almost promised myself I wouldn't, but..Screw it.

SQEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!

OH MY TIAMAT! This IS THE BEST MOVIE EVER! The Fight Scenes, the action, the guts, OMT >.> I need to get the game!
BEST MOVIE YET!

[ImperiousLeader]

Loved it. So much energy, so much fun. Okay, nothing more than what was advertised, but what was advertised was Kaiju vs. Giant Freaking Robots ... what more was needed?

That film pulled me back to childhood enthusiasm. And I'll be spending the rest of the day thinking up new Jaeger names:

Warrior Aurora
Whiskey Tornado
Stalwart Delta
Centaur November

... it's really hard to top "Gipsy Danger" and "Striker Eureka".

[warty goblin]

I have two things to say.

First, Goblin, I owe you an apology. I may not agree with your opinion or viewpoint, but they're entirely valid, and far more reasonable than I initially was willing to give credit for; I'm sorry. That said, if you disliked Pacific Rim of all things, I implore you to be careful about -wasting- your money on World War Z. That, and it seems like you missed quite a few details in the fight scenes that actually did make sense.

Apology accepted. And my special attacks comment was not particularly well thought out; I really should have learned better than to argue on the internet at 1:00 AM. I still found the fight scenes dull and repetitious, but there's more thought and logic there than I credited them for.

Actually went to see WWZ this afternoon. Much more my thing; there was some variety and tension to the action, and I couldn't predict every third word before it was said.

[Mewtarthio]

So... flipping forward to the present, they activate the rift, send through a great big thing that lumbers around, does some "exterminating", and is put down. Rinse, lather, repeat, for 10 years at least of the 14, learning from the encounter each time via their hive mind. OK... but why not send out many smaller scouting units? Why not build up a strike force of multiple kaiju on the far side of the rift rather than going in one at a time? Because then it wouldn't be a kaiju movie, I suppose... but eh. Still makes very little sense.

My two cents:
There's no guarantee that Earth will be habitable for the kaiju, which is exactly why they abandoned it 65 million years ago. I figure it takes a lot of infrastructure to get the rift open long enough to send multiple kaiju through. The first few kaiju are just scouts to see if they should even bother with this world. They simply don't have the capacity to send more than the occasional weak scout, because there's no real reason to invest in the rift if there's no guarantee that there's anything worthwhile on the other side. Once they confirm that Earth is a viable new home, they start building up the infrastructure that supports their interworld travel, enabling them to open the rift more often and for longer periods of time. They're sending the kaiju through as fast as they can, it's just that even that is pretty slow until they've spent a few years really investing in the rift.

[Bickerstaff]

Gotta say, the movie was magnificent.

Was it just me or did the first few Kaiju look kinda similar to Legion warbeasts? Like in the head region, and the "hands"? (Assuming there's some Warmahordes players here)

[warty goblin]

I personally didn't get much of a romance vibe from the interplay of the two leads, more of a good friendship and mutual respect. Maybe even surrogate siblings given that the original co-pilot was the guy's brother.


Posted from Giantitp.com App for Android

That scene where she's looking at him sans shirt? That wasn't a platonic face, that was a 'I want to get naked with that' face.

[Jayngfet]

My two cents:
There's no guarantee that Earth will be habitable for the kaiju, which is exactly why they abandoned it 65 million years ago. I figure it takes a lot of infrastructure to get the rift open long enough to send multiple kaiju through. The first few kaiju are just scouts to see if they should even bother with this world. They simply don't have the capacity to send more than the occasional weak scout, because there's no real reason to invest in the rift if there's no guarantee that there's anything worthwhile on the other side. Once they confirm that Earth is a viable new home, they start building up the infrastructure that supports their interworld travel, enabling them to open the rift more often and for longer periods of time. They're sending the kaiju through as fast as they can, it's just that even that is pretty slow until they've spent a few years really investing in the rift.



I can buy this. The Kaiju Masters didn't strike me as a fast paced species. I mean they may have a bunch of Kaiju laying around of various types but they didn't send them out rapidly or seem too concerned with pace.

They probably didn't expect it to take so long anyway. They didn't exactly think Humanity would build fifty foot tall wrestlebots to fight back. Even then, they probably didn't expect things to go as far as they did. Once things ramped up in production from Mk 1. Jaeger there looks like an immediate ramp up to match, and a category match usually goes in a Kaiju's favor anyway(Ralleigh mentions teams of two or three Jaeger going at once for decisive victories, unmodded Gipsy lost to a category 3 despite being a mk. 3, a category five beats a mk. 5). Once the Jaeger hit Mk. 3 the humans could barely keep up, and by the time Mk. 4's were common Jaeger were approaching 90 percent casualty ratings. Even without the flood of multiple Kaju another dual hit like Otachi and Leatherback would have screwed everyone over for good anyway.

Just getting to the rift cost them their best unit and they didn't have anything left to field outside maybe a couple of prototype museum pieces piloted by the scrubs Ralleigh beat. With the fastest construction taking fourteen months and even one category four or five coming through weekly, Gipsy and Eureka would probably have been overrun immediately and it'd be a quick death after.

There was no real need for speed, just doing things the way they were doing would have won anyway.




That scene where she's looking at him sans shirt? That wasn't a platonic face, that was a 'I want to get naked with that' face.


That makes it more believable to me actually. Two hot people who are friends aren't blind to how the other one looks. I couldn't really see them as boyfriend/girlfriend given their personalities(at least not in a longterm relationship) and what was going on around them(her dad basically just died, a bunch of other people they knew also died, they need to get their lives together and stable). They may develop something on the side, but all things considered I doubt it'd ever go too far before they met other, more romantically compatible people.

[Dienekes]

I didn't particularly see it that way, but that has less to do with the portrayal itself and more with the fact that I was really, really hoping for a "curb-stomp the kaiju through the Power of Love" bit. That's pretty much the only thing that would have made this movie any more perfect (if done well, of course).

My God no. As far as I'm concerned "The Power of Love!" storyline can go jump off a cliff. If I never see it represented in fiction again I will die happy, or at least slightly happier than I would with the alternative.

[ShadowFireLance]

Figure you guys might want to notice this;
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292405

[MLai]

Giant robits punching godzillas when done in anime is much faster and more fluid than here (because people will believe it when evas move like ninjas but not when it's pretending to be real at the same scale), and the choreography of mecha fights these days is way better than what Pacific Rim gave us.
The flaw is the assumption that everyone (Jpnese or otherwise) likes Gundam choreography as opposed to Big O choreography, when it comes to giant robots.

That makes it more believable to me actually. Two hot people who are friends aren't blind to how the other one looks. I couldn't really see them as boyfriend/girlfriend given their personalities(at least not in a longterm relationship) and what was going on around them(her dad basically just died, a bunch of other people they knew also died, they need to get their lives together and stable). They may develop something on the side, but all things considered I doubt it'd ever go too far before they met other, more romantically compatible people.
{scrubbed}The limited intimate relationship that you just described above, is the extent of all action movie intimate relationships. This isn't a chick flick.

[Jayngfet]

The flaw is the assumption that everyone (Jpnese or otherwise) likes Gundam choreography as opposed to Big O choreography, when it comes to giant robots.

{scrubbed}The limited intimate relationship that you just described above, is the extent of all action movie intimate relationships. This isn't a chick flick.

Given previous scrubbed comments and the chain of logic you've used in past threads, I'm going to make a guess that you saw a couple of trailers, formed a slightly racist assumption, and threw out all actual evidence to the contrary the film presented.

I mean, you aren't actually talking about anything that happens in the movie here when you talk about this. You're talking about random tropes that look vaguely similar that you don't like and you're superimposing them onto a script that they straight up said does not have them.

This wasn't a romance arc. There was no big kiss despite half a dozen scenes they could have dropped it in. There was no romantic relationship and outside of one insult it was never treated as such by anyone except people who went in expecting it so they could have one to hate. It doesn't exist. Not even a little bit.

[paddyfool]

Almost all the times we see a Jaegar seriously disabled it's by attacks to the head.

Which, quite frankly, is silly. If you're designing a giant robit that has to be human operated, you put the pilot in the safest location possible, and there are plenty of core locations that are just as far from a reactor in the chest as the head would be. It would make more sense for the pilot compartment to be in the stomach and just receive a sensor feed from the head.

I mean even Evas had the pilot in the back of the neck, so they couldn't be disabled from trivial attacks to a vulnerable extremity, just about all giant robits that aren't full on laugh in the face of physics super robots (and even some that are) put the pilot in a protected location.


Agreed, putting the humans in the head is silly, tactically speaking.

However, I'm slightly more reconciled to those two Jaeger being taken down that easily. It fits with a few things in the movie:
- The Kaiju being smarter than given credit for
- The Kaiju having a hive mind.

Could said Kaiju have then gone into this fight with a game plan that was explicitly designed to counter the mechs they expected to meet? And thus their having a lot more trouble with the recently repaired, upgraded and not-seen-for-years Gypsy Danger (never mind the change of pilots, and thus battlefield tactics) than they had with the other three mecha suddenly has an explanation.

[MLai]

Given previous scrubbed comments and the chain of logic you've used in past threads, I'm going to make a guess that you saw a couple of trailers, formed a slightly racist assumption, and threw out all actual evidence to the contrary the film presented.
I've been told my comments got scrubbed because the TV trope name itself is unpalatable to this forum, so I should refrain from referring to it by its given name.
I saw this movie 2 days ago.
The romance arc, sans kissing and sex, is there. Others have seen it as well. In a movie, every minute is precious. If you're a good director, you don't put in anything without a purpose. There were multiple scenes with the girl peeking on the guy (often half-dressed) in a curious manner, and then a scene where they're outright in the room with the guy half-naked. And then the final scene with the girl posed in a very suggestive manner before the screen cuts to credits.
This isn't 12-Monkeys-level innuendo. It's all there.

I mean, you aren't actually talking about anything that happens in the movie here when you talk about this. You're talking about random tropes that look vaguely similar that you don't like and you're superimposing them onto a script that they straight up said [I]does not have them.
I can tell you a lot of things that directors/authors deny, even though it's right there in the finished product.

[GloatingSwine]

The pilots are connected via Neural Link and the head is obviously kinda important there. The body of a Jaeger generally conforms more to human proportion the further along in production it is. That's why Cherno Alpha was all janky and clunky and needed old school wires, while Gipsy Danger was more organic in terms of suit and innards and has a kind of throat under the floor, same as Striker Eureka. It'd make sense for the Pilot to NEED to be in the head.


No, the head of the Jaeger is completely irrelevant to the pilot's neural connection to it. There is absolutely no reason for the same functions to be in the same location, even if the pilot is neurally connected to the robot, as long as the sensory inputs come from the correct location (the visual input, the brain uses visual input primarily to determine where bits of th body are)


There was the mess hall scene and the conversations after to show that. It was an issue that was cleared up between fights. It may have been done a bit better bit it was addressed. It's not exactly like they just showed up and instantly did awesome either. Leatherback smacked them around pretty hard and they needed to be rallied to actually do damage. That's not even worth spoilering because those scenes are in the damned trailers, and most of it from the very first day.

No, it wasn't cleared up, that's the point, there was a bit of a pep talk, but that's not enough for real character development. The growth needed to be shown on screen in the fight, because it would have made the fight more interesting, the stakes wouldn't have been "will the special effect punch the other special effect", they would have been "will this person overcome their inner demons in order to punch the special effect". This is the reason that, for example, Simon is the main character in TTGL not Kamina, because Simon is the character who has this potential for growth, and the show was so popular because of how it weaved that growth into the stakes the rest of the show presented.


Ok, you obviously weren't paying attention. The Jaeger aren't Eva's. Those differences aren't because live action isn't as good, since those scenes were about 95% animated anyway. That was because Del Toro was specifically making them heavier and slower and having more weight to them.

Evas are the closest point of reference in terms of robits of roughly the same dimensions. And yes, the differences are primarily because this is a live action movie, the difference is about what the audience will accept that your special effect is capable of doing and how much their suspension of disbelief will hold up to it. If you made a live action movie where the 80m tall robits moved exactly like the Eva units it would look really fake no matter how advanced your CGI, people wouldn't buy into it because the context, of an otherwise real looking world, limits what they will accept a thing of that size doing. When the whole thing is animated there's far less restriction on what people will accept because you're not putting it into context with things they're intuitively used to.


You don't NEED Mako to be all indecisive and useless for twenty minutes, because there's enough time in universe implied through the movie and conversations between characters for her to work through it otherwise.

Yes, you do, because it makes her victory more complete when she overcomes it. It makes her character journey more fulfilling for the audience to follow if they actually do get to follow and share in her victory over herself, not have it happen in the course of a five minute pep talk.

It would make this a better movie if that struggle with the self were shown on screen.

[MLai]

I agree that the movie would have been better if Mako worked through her inner demons during a Kaiju fight, rather than offscreen. Tropey as hell, but what's adding one more trope in this movie?

But surely that's not enough to make WWZ a better movie than this???

[Hopeless]

That scene where she's looking at him sans shirt? That wasn't a platonic face, that was a 'I want to get naked with that' face.

I thought that was "Holy c**p they didn't say anything about those scars in his field reports!":smallwink:

She had already pointed out he was reckless and didn't follow orders whilst he tried to explain sometimes following orders wasn't enough, sometimes you have to follow your gut in situations where giant robots fighting humoungous monsters makes it difficult to rely on the tactical advice!

Interesting did you catch the remarks Pentecost made about him and Rayleigh sharing rather specific characteristics which was why he recruited him?

Been looking at those youtube video's about the Pacific Rim video game and wondered why Eureka Striker was statted so high when I got the impression both the Russian and Chinese mechs outclassed him?

The Russian mech according to a featurette on yout tube apparently had its cockpit in the chest and the oversized head was a diversion for the monsters although it was also a power source if I heard right.

Yes I agree they were taken out too quickly but up to that point it had always been one on one and someone didn't mention there was two out there nor give any of the mechs decent tactical advice after all Eureka did want to join them far sooner and might have distracted the second Kaiju long enough for the other two to overcome their opponent.

I suspect the novel might reveal why Rayleigh's brother wasn't well enough to fight since his behaviour seemed a bit under the weather, funny it took the senior Australian mech pilot to point out Rayleigh had to pilot Gipsy Danger back to shore alone after killing the Kaiju that killed his brother and all without an arm and seriously badly damaged to boot!

[Corvus]

Been looking at those youtube video's about the Pacific Rim video game and wondered why Eureka Striker was statted so high when I got the impression both the Russian and Chinese mechs outclassed him?



Backstory is that Striker Eureka is the most powerful and successful Jaeger made - it is the only Mark-5 Jaeger constructed, at a cost of $100 billion and is responsible for 11 Kaiju kills.

[Jayngfet]

No, the head of the Jaeger is completely irrelevant to the pilot's neural connection to it. There is absolutely no reason for the same functions to be in the same location, even if the pilot is neurally connected to the robot, as long as the sensory inputs come from the correct location (the visual input, the brain uses visual input primarily to determine where bits of th body are)


But that's also making a number of assumptions on how the Jaegers work. I'm going with what I'm saying based on visual evidence. That is to say: Most of the MK. 1 Jaegers that were explicitly just slapped together didn't have them positioned "correctly", save for Coyote Tango, which had a number of anatomical quirks later Jaegers didn't have.



No, it wasn't cleared up, that's the point, there was a bit of a pep talk, but that's not enough for real character development. The growth needed to be shown on screen in the fight, because it would have made the fight more interesting, the stakes wouldn't have been "will the special effect punch the other special effect", they would have been "will this person overcome their inner demons in order to punch the special effect". This is the reason that, for example, Simon is the main character in TTGL not Kamina, because Simon is the character who has this potential for growth, and the show was so popular because of how it weaved that growth into the stakes the rest of the show presented.


Simon has 26 episodes. That's about ten times as much as this movie had to establish that. Even in movie form the abridged version of his character arc is twice as long as Pacific Rim.



Evas are the closest point of reference in terms of robits of roughly the same dimensions. And yes, the differences are primarily because this is a live action movie, the difference is about what the audience will accept that your special effect is capable of doing and how much their suspension of disbelief will hold up to it. If you made a live action movie where the 80m tall robits moved exactly like the Eva units it would look really fake no matter how advanced your CGI, people wouldn't buy into it because the context, of an otherwise real looking world, limits what they will accept a thing of that size doing. When the whole thing is animated there's far less restriction on what people will accept because you're not putting it into context with things they're intuitively used to.


The Jaegers aren't live action in those scenes. They aren't even mo-cap. Del Toro had them animated on keyframes by hand just like the EVA's. Live action doesn't factor into "will this robot fight work" because the only live action in those fight scenes is some pseudo stop-motion that was used to give the proper sense of weight.

Eva's, which AREN'T the closest point of reference, due to the dozens of other series that are closer in size and movement to Pacific Rim. You know, the ones Del Toro has actually seen.

You're talking out your ass here by comparing two incredibly dissimlar things that were designed using radically different philosophy and direction, which we know from things Anno and Del Toro have said about their respective products, and attributing it to a superficial difference. I mean with Del Toros methods and Rebuild's increasing use of 3d the actual technical differences are far smaller than you're making them out to be. They exist, but they aren't quite that far apart.



Yes, you do, because it makes her victory more complete when she overcomes it. It makes her character journey more fulfilling for the audience to follow if they actually do get to follow and share in her victory over herself, not have it happen in the course of a five minute pep talk.

It would make this a better movie if that struggle with the self were shown on screen.

I'm not going to deny that it was expected, and I can't say if it'd have made the movie better.

But it wasn't under used. If you actually pay attention to what the characters say before, during, and after the test scene it all fits pretty well together. Mainly because it wasn't just a thing involving Mako. The entire episode was triggered by Raleighs original flashback and was given weight due to the context of past interactions involving the other main characters.

Mako having another flashback would have just made her look weak and vulnerable and less believable as being the good candidate she was sold as. There MAY have been a couple of flashbacks that were cut from the theatrical version, considering how damned much was cut from it, but if they were cut then it was judged that they weren't exactly integral to the plot.


I've been told my comments got scrubbed because the TV trope name itself is unpalatable to this forum, so I should refrain from referring to it by its given name.
I saw this movie 2 days ago.
The romance arc, sans kissing and sex, is there. Others have seen it as well. In a movie, every minute is precious. If you're a good director, you don't put in anything without a purpose. There were multiple scenes with the girl peeking on the guy (often half-dressed) in a curious manner, and then a scene where they're outright in the room with the guy half-naked. And then the final scene with the girl posed in a very suggestive manner before the screen cuts to credits.
This isn't 12-Monkeys-level innuendo. It's all there.

I can tell you a lot of things that directors/authors deny, even though it's right there in the finished product.

Considering just as many people DON'T see it as do, I'm inclined to side with the people who made the damned thing over you, a random internet poster who's shown time and again, even in this thread, that he's willing to do anything in order to confirm the biases he had going into this.

[Hopeless]

Has there been any update on a complete list of the Jaegers' shown in the movie?

In addition to the ones who we know who piloted them?

[GloatingSwine]

Simon has 26 episodes. That's about ten times as much as this movie had to establish that. Even in movie form the abridged version of his character arc is twice as long as Pacific Rim.


Except I already pointed out how you could do a satisfactory job in the current movie running length and make the action scene more exciting at the same time.

Try again.



The Jaegers aren't live action in those scenes. They aren't even mo-cap. Del Toro had them animated on keyframes by hand just like the EVA's. Live action doesn't factor into "will this robot fight work" because the only live action in those fight scenes is some pseudo stop-motion that was used to give the proper sense of weight.

{scrubbed} The movie is a live action movie, the context that the CG scenes exist in is that they are supposed to share the same world as real actors, and therefore the audience's expectation an suspension of disbelief is calibrated by that context.

The fact that the monsters and robits are all CG is irrelevant, because they have to share the same screen as real actors and so the audience is setting their suspension of disbelief accordingly. In an animated show the audience's suspension of disbelief is far more forgiving because the context is that they are watching something which is not real at any point.



You're talking out your ass here by comparing two incredibly dissimlar things that were designed using radically different philosophy and direction, which we know from things Anno and Del Toro have said about their respective products, and attributing it to a superficial difference. I mean with Del Toros methods and Rebuild's increasing use of 3d the actual technical differences are far smaller than you're making them out to be. They exist, but they aren't quite that far apart.


Except my point is to show why they are dissimilar and why, in fact, their differing contexts force them to be dissimilar in order for them to have a successful impact on the audience. What I am saying is that if you made a live action Eva movie and the Evas move like they do in the animated version people would say that they looked unrealistic and fake because they will not accept an 80m tall robot moving like that in a live action context, but they will accept it in animation.

This is, also, a limitation of what can be done with live action giant robots, once you accept that they have to be slow and ponderous for the audience to respond to them properly, you realise that they are going to be much more limited in how you can display them fighting.



But it wasn't under used. If you actually pay attention to what the characters say before, during, and after the test scene it all fits pretty well together. Mainly because it wasn't just a thing involving Mako. The entire episode was triggered by Raleighs original flashback and was given weight due to the context of past interactions involving the other main characters.

Mako having another flashback would have just made her look weak and vulnerable and less believable as being the good candidate she was sold as. There MAY have been a couple of flashbacks that were cut from the theatrical version, considering how damned much was cut from it, but if they were cut then it was judged that they weren't exactly integral to the plot.

No, Mako being shown to overcome her past trauma would not make her a weaker character, it would have made her a better written character, one who actually follows a proper arc rather than one which happens offscreen.

Remember the golden rule of film storytelling? Show don't tell. The film would have been better if it applied that properly to the character arcs not just the monster punching.

[warty goblin]

But it wasn't under used. If you actually pay attention to what the characters say before, during, and after the test scene it all fits pretty well together. Mainly because it wasn't just a thing involving Mako. The entire episode was triggered by Raleighs original flashback and was given weight due to the context of past interactions involving the other main characters.

If that's the case, then shouldn't there be a scene where they actually learn to work together as a team? Because there's one scene before the big fight that has them actually trying to run a robot together, and it's a complete fiasco. It'd be like if a movie showed a couple of people learning to figure skate together, and in the first practice fell flat on their faces, then cut to them winning Olympic Gold. There's some missing steps between A and B, steps that really should not be missing.


Mako having another flashback would have just made her look weak and vulnerable and less believable as being the good candidate she was sold as. There MAY have been a couple of flashbacks that were cut from the theatrical version, considering how damned much was cut from it, but if they were cut then it was judged that they weren't exactly integral to the plot.

I don't think they needed another flashback. They needed a scene of there not being a flashback, or pulling out of a flashback, to show that the two had found a way to work together effectively.

It's not like this would take more than about six minutes. They could have pruned that much out of some of those interminable fight scenes easily.

[Bhu]

Has there been any update on a complete list of the Jaegers' shown in the movie?

In addition to the ones who we know who piloted them?

http://pacificrim.wikia.com/wiki/Jaeger


http://www.heroclixworld.com/HCW/Articles.aspx?ID=486A :smallbiggrin:

[Fjolnir]

@ the development or lack thereof of miko, the movie is already almost 2.5 hours long, I don't think that dragging out the middle part of the movie where we meet the other teams and the failure to drift happens is the right call anyhow.

[warty goblin]

@ the development or lack thereof of miko, the movie is already almost 2.5 hours long, I don't think that dragging out the middle part of the movie where we meet the other teams and the failure to drift happens is the right call anyhow.

So your defense is that the movie's just so long it doesn't have time to effectively tell its own story?

Because that's a new one on me.

[turkishproverb]

Until Beef McHarbody opens his mouth before they set off in the post Hong Kong bay scene, this is certainly the case.

...The Guy using "girlfriend" as an insult? Yea, he's real reliable for plot relevant information. Particularly there.


Alright, I almost promised myself I wouldn't, but..Screw it.

SQEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!

OH MY TIAMAT! This IS THE BEST MOVIE EVER! The Fight Scenes, the action, the guts, OMT >.> I need to get the game!
BEST MOVIE YET!


*Hugs* glad you got to see it. Game isn't' great, but it could be worse. If you want a really fun mech game, look up strike suit zero.


That scene where she's looking at him sans shirt? That wasn't a platonic face, that was a 'I want to get naked with that' face.

You've never thought a person you just met was hot only for it to turn out platonic?


The flaw is the assumption that everyone (Jpnese or otherwise) likes Gundam choreography as opposed to Big O choreography, when it comes to giant robots.

Well put.


{scrubbed}The limited intimate relationship that you just described above, is the extent of all action movie intimate relationships. This isn't a chick flick.

...There's almost universally at bare minimum a kiss.



On Mako: I thought the development was fine. She worked through her issues, and didn't have to look incompetent in direct combat to do so. I'm sick of people doing the "woman is weak in combat until she overcomes her feels" plot. It's been used way too much, often quite to the detriment of story and character (I'm looking at you Other M).

[GloatingSwine]

@ the development or lack thereof of miko, the movie is already almost 2.5 hours long, I don't think that dragging out the middle part of the movie where we meet the other teams and the failure to drift happens is the right call anyhow.

If you read what I wrote, you'll see that I'm advocating this be streamed into the middle fight fight scene. If this means we have to lose one scene of a robit being thrown through a building again, then this is no loss at all, it wouldn't extend the movie, just change what it's runtime was being used for.


(also, the movie is only 2 hours 10 minutes, the fact you might have felt it was two and a half hours does seem to say that the fight scenes as they were weren't engaging enough. Make the fight scenes about the people, not just special effects punching each other, like they are in all the really good robit shows, and it would feel pacier as well because you'd be more engaged with it)

[Deathkeeper]

If you read what I wrote, you'll see that I'm advocating this be streamed into the middle fight fight scene. If this means we have to lose one scene of a robit being thrown through a building again, then this is no loss at all, it wouldn't extend the movie, just change what it's runtime was being used for.


(also, the movie is only 2 hours 10 minutes, the fact you might have felt it was two and a half hours does seem to say that the fight scenes as they were weren't engaging enough. Make the fight scenes about the people, not just special effects punching each other, like they are in all the really good robit shows, and it would feel pacier as well because you'd be more engaged with it)

I'm still not sure what these "robits" are you're talking about.:smalltongue:
And frankly I though it was around the same time and I absolutely love the film, so clearly that's not it.

[warty goblin]

You've never thought a person you just met was hot only for it to turn out platonic?
Pretty much constantly.


On Mako: I thought the development was fine. She worked through her issues, and didn't have to look incompetent in direct combat to do so. I'm sick of people doing the "woman is weak in combat until she overcomes her feels" plot. It's been used way too much, often quite to the detriment of story and character (I'm looking at you Other M).
I don't think the movie can be said to be avoiding that plot, since it's pretty clearly engaging in it. Doing a bad job of something still means you did it.

And to be honest, I thought they needed more emphasis on whatshisface the lead getting himself back into mental fighting shape. I really didn't buy that bit where the pair of them go from completely out of control to kicking all of the ass through being so mentally in tune with each other. She was shone way too torn up for it to be believable, he wasn't emotionally torn up enough.

[Fjolnir]

(also, the movie is only 2 hours 10 minutes, the fact you might have felt it was two and a half hours does seem to say that the fight scenes as they were weren't engaging enough. Make the fight scenes about the people, not just special effects punching each other, like they are in all the really good robit shows, and it would feel pacier as well because you'd be more engaged with it)

I added the trailer's run time to it as well which brings the whole moviegoing experience to approx 2 hr 25 mins, my apologies. The movie engages well in many aspects, but the part between the abortive drift test and the hong kong bay fight is a little strange, it would have been a good time to actually have Chuck Manwagon actually interact with someone besides Stacker, Miko, or Hurricane in a more meaningful way than brawling. A stacker/miko scene that isn't about the nature of vengance might be well served as well, in fact a scene with the russians where they describe an abortive drift and bookending it with miko/stacker trying to grab resolution might actually be what we need.

[Spacewolf]

Saw it yesterday and I liked the film a lot. The only things that bothered me was the pretty bad tactics used by the jaegers most of the time. (I know at the start they where kicking the kaijus around but I would of made sure they always operated in 2s who actually supported each other.) and why the pilots needed to be in the Jaegers at all (To much information to be passed remotely perhaps?).

If they do need to be in the Jaegers then i do understand the cockpits being in the head, since while it's an obvious target it's much easier to defend. The first time a head was destroyed the Pilots had to be distracted and in the second I think at least one arm had been disabled (the one on the back that seemed to be in the best place for defending the head).

By the end of the Hong Kong fight I found it quite funny how obviously useless the wall was going to be as well.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

That scene where she's looking at him sans shirt? That wasn't a platonic face, that was a 'I want to get naked with that' face.

Dude, it's Charlie Hunnam, nobody's that good an actress.

[Bhu]

http://pacificrimfilm.blogspot.com/p/jaeger-and-pilots-eng.html some nice jaeger info

[huttj509]

If they do need to be in the Jaegers then i do understand the cockpits being in the head, since while it's an obvious target it's much easier to defend. The first time a head was destroyed the Pilots had to be distracted and in the second I think at least one arm had been disabled (the one on the back that seemed to be in the best place for defending the head).


You know, that sparks a possible reason to have the nerve center in the head.

Instinct.

Since in some form, from the pilot's perspective they ARE the jaeger, their fighting instincts come into play (how that works with three-arms, I dunno). Training can overcome the "protect the head" urge, but given how many weapons they also need to get used to, perhaps it was a shortcut at first that stuck.

[Inspectre]

Also something to keep in mind on the "pilots in the head is a bad idea" thing - the Jaegars tend to get torn apart. A lot. Putting the pilots somewhere in the chest instead of the head would only last for as long as it took the Kaiju to figure it out. Then you'd get something like Knifehead impaling Jaegars and it would be the same problem all over again.

At least by making the head an important target you're forcing the Kaiju to pick an area to target - either the limbs to disable, the chest to breach the reactor (never actually seen but presumably a potential tactic), or take out the head. But judging from the sort of battle damage that the Jaegers take (at least from Cat 3s & 4s), there is no amount of protection that will stop a determined Kaiju - it's essentially a dps race over who will become crippled/dead first.

[TheEmerged]

Darn good movie. Predictable? Oh yes. But this movie is a perfect example that it doesn't matter if that it's a cliché when you do it well, and this movie did it well.

Gaming geek that I am I wish there'd have been more explanation, but I understand a lot of this is available from secondary sources.

[9mm]

well, the easiest explanation over why there is a head can be summed up like this: When something goes wrong, how do you eject? It is established early on that people who can run these things are rare, and worth protecting. It might not have been a big old honking head, but there would be a very large location for pilots to stand in. Given how you pilot the damn things, the entire cockpit would have to come off to eject "safely".


this is part of why the death of the two jeagers stand out so much. While Red Typhoon obviously just got its head crushed, the Russians just would have been able to eject assuming it had the capability (and there is no real reason why it shouldn't). As for how they got out of Gypsy... that was WAAAAAAY to slow to ever work as an emergency eject

[Tiki Snakes]

well, the easiest explanation over why there is a head can be summed up like this: When something goes wrong, how do you eject? It is established early on that people who can run these things are rare, and worth protecting. It might not have been a big old honking head, but there would be a very large location for pilots to stand in. Given how you pilot the damn things, the entire cockpit would have to come off to eject "safely".


this is part of why the death of the two jeagers stand out so much. While Red Typhoon obviously just got its head crushed, the Russians just would have been able to eject assuming it had the capability (and there is no real reason why it shouldn't). As for how they got out of Gypsy... that was WAAAAAAY to slow to ever work as an emergency eject


Having just found myself trailing around related websites, I can actually answer some of this;
The heads can indeed be ejected to save the pilots. The catch to that is, I guess, that means the Kaiju eats a few million people in most cases so I guess they aren't very keen on using it, hence the ones dying to it in the film are mostly taken by surprise with a blow to the head and then it's just too late, their chance to pull out has already gone.

Oh, and the Russians aren't in the head, that's all power plant. The Russians are infact in the chest and less able to eject even if they tried.

I presume the escape pods are very much a final fallback kind of situation. Could even be unique to Gypsy Danger.

[Jayngfet]

this is part of why the death of the two jeagers stand out so much. While Red Typhoon obviously just got its head crushed, the Russians just would have been able to eject assuming it had the capability (and there is no real reason why it shouldn't). As for how they got out of Gypsy... that was WAAAAAAY to slow to ever work as an emergency eject


Otachi completely covered the head and crushed it from all angles with a lightning move from behind using a new limb nobody had encountered before. Just like how evey other move those Kaiju pulled was "nonstandard" and couldn't be predicted ahead of time. They couldn't know about an EMP launcher or an acid cannon, nor could they know about the whiplike tail with a grasping talon at the end. It was something out of nowhere that destroyed the whole thing in less than ten seconds.

Putting it in the chest wouldn't work, since Jaegers lose chest pieces and arms at the shoulder joint CONSTANTLY. The older model Mk. 1 Jaeger almost all had chest mounted cockpits(Cherno, Yukon, and the american one stan out), and the only one that wasn't destroyed was Yukon Brawler, which was quickly made outdated and put in a museum, being a glorified prototype.

That's the point of those fights. Making reasonable defenses doesn't work when you have an enemy that can pull out multiple seemingly random weapons and blow past your prepared defenses so easily. Every defensive tactic they try failed quickly. The only thing that worked was wailing on the Kaiju until they stopped moving.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Oh damn was this move grade-A terrible.

Seriously folks this I think script-writing classes can use this movie as an object lesson in how to NOT write a script. Its all tell and no show for all that truly mindless action, its clearly more obsessed with its concepts then the only thing that actually matters: the story.

It is also a fanfic. Specifically someone's pet NGE AU fix-fic where they cut out all the "boring" stuff to make everything more "awesome" and stuff. It also ships Shinji/Rei and thinks Asuka is a dude and reaally really loved "Both of You, Dance Like You Want to Win!" I think. It also apparently really likes Independence Day.

Actually let me check.... Travis Beacham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travis_Beacham)... ahh he was born in 1980 so was is just in the range to have had both be very formative events in his life. That explains everything really

I'm just glad I was able to start laughing at every ridiculous cliche and just off-the-shelf stock character. I seriously am going to have to watch this movie drunk someday with friend, its better then Battleship for laughing at. Loved it.

Also it is nice to know that CGI can be done well and can finally support some of the more ludicrous premises of anime.

[Deathkeeper]

Oh damn was this move grade-A terrible.

Seriously folks this I think script-writing classes can use this movie as an object lesson in how to NOT write a script. Its all tell and no show for all that truly mindless action, its clearly more obsessed with its concepts then the only thing that actually matters: the story.

It is also a fanfic. Specifically someone's pet NGE AU fix-fic where they cut out all the "boring" stuff to make everything more "awesome" and stuff. It also ships Shinji/Rei and thinks Asuka is a dude and reaally really loved "Both of You, Dance Like You Want to Win!" I think. It also apparently really likes Independence Day.

Actually let me check.... Travis Beacham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travis_Beacham)... ahh he was born in 1980 so was is just in the range to have had both be very formative events in his life. That explains everything really

I'm just glad I was able to start laughing at every ridiculous cliche and just off-the-shelf stock character. I seriously am going to have to watch this movie drunk someday with friend, its better then Battleship for laughing at. Loved it.

Also it is nice to know that CGI can be done well and can finally support some of the more ludicrous premises of anime.

Yeah, that hour of characters talking and having flashbacks. Yeah, wasn't that the AWESOME part?
No seriously, what are you talking about? It wasn't necessarily well done, as some here would argue, but I fail to see how that was needless pandering to "awesome."
Also, GTD and several of the creators never watched Eva, said he explicitly avoided it, so the comparison doesn't work here. You're really coming across as needlessly spiteful.

[MLai]

Considering just as many people DON'T see it as do, I'm inclined to side with the people who made the damned thing over you, a random internet poster who's shown time and again, even in this thread, that he's willing to do anything in order to confirm the biases he had going into this.
I don't know what your problem is, but from your tone it's obvious this conversational sub-topic has gone on 5 posts too long.

Oh damn was this move grade-A terrible.
Its all tell and no show for all that truly mindless action, its clearly more obsessed with its concepts then the only thing that actually matters: the story.
It is also a fanfic. Specifically someone's pet NGE AU fix-fic where they cut out all the "boring" stuff to make everything more "awesome"..
I have to agree with the others who facepalm at all the "omg it rips of NGE!" It's as annoying as "omg Dawn Of War rips off Starcraft!" NGE is not the trope namer of anything from the robot/kaiju genre. Nor is it incredibly great. All in all, it is nothing. The only thing it is, is being within age range of a large portion of Western male viewing demographic.
But yeah, the cliches in this movie are glorious. It is more concerned with giant robots punching Cloverfields, than with the characters. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Mikeavelli]

From various:



The Screenplay was terrible, we needed more character development and less giant robots punching monsters



no No NO NO!

You are wrong. Didn't you see Transformers and listen to all the criticism about how all we wanted was to ignore the humans and focus on the giant machines punching each other? This is what we wanted out of Pacific Rim, this is what we got. If you went to Pacific Rim expecting a deep, compelling story with emotional character arcs, you were clearly deluding yourself about the kind of movie it was, and what it was very clearly advertised as.

It promised Giant Robots vs. Monsters, and it delivered Giant Robots vs. Monsters. Devoting more time to character growth, plotline, and other things we don't care about would have meant less time, effort, and budget spent on Giant Robots vs Monsters.

----------------

There is only one criticism I have for the movie, one nonsensical thing (out of so many) that I just cannot forgive.



Atomic powered is not the same thing as Analog. They're not related at all. There is no-one at all familiar with those words who would think that's what they meant.

It was pretty clearly some kind of homage to Giant Robo, but it could have been handled better.

[Pokonic]

I didn't go into this expecting a deep plotline. Or a romantic sidestory. Or a heavy handed environmental message.

I got none of those things.

I got two hours worth of giant robots beating up giant monsters.

It was everything I expected and more.

[Jayngfet]

I don't know what your problem is, but from your tone it's obvious this conversational sub-topic has gone on 5 posts too long.

My "problem" is your repeated assertions about elements that don't exist, that only you see, that aren't there because most of the moments used to establish them as being there are nonexistent. This is consistent behavior with you, since over multiple past discussions you've been seen doing the exact same thing. You keep asserting to the existence of a hackneyed, generic romance despite very few of these tropes existing, the only real reference to them being a couple was done as an insult, and the fact that again not only do a good deal of other people say they don't see it, the director says it wasn't put it.

There is no romance. It's in your head because you walked in expecting one an interpreted anything even kinda similar as being a romance.



I have to agree with the others who facepalm at all the "omg it rips of NGE!" It's as annoying as "omg Dawn Of War rips off Starcraft!" NGE is not the trope namer of anything from the robot/kaiju genre. Nor is it incredibly great. All in all, it is nothing. The only thing it is, is being within age range of a large portion of Western male viewing demographic.
But yeah, the cliches in this movie are glorious. It is more concerned with giant robots punching Cloverfields, than with the characters. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I will however agree with you unconditionally with this statement. One of the things that's been the most aggravating about this movie is the fact that everybody keeps comparing it to that one thing twenty years ago that only looks superficially similar, because they're both based on older works that didn't wind up getting played when the speaker was a kid during the daytime, but both took radically different directions with the source material otherwise, which is something that, between the two productions, can be said of literally a dozen or more shows and movies.

It's pretty much equivalent to saying "I didn't like playing Mass Effect, it felt too much like a Star Wars knockoff" and expecting that to be the end of the conversation.

[Seharvepernfan]

In order to prevent any spoilers, I have not read through this thread, so I'm asking a question that may have been answered already:

Should I see this in 3D or not? Which is better?

[Deathkeeper]

In order to prevent any spoilers, I have not read through this thread, so I'm asking a question that may have been answered already:

Should I see this in 3D or not? Which is better?

I thoroughly enjoyed it in 3D, and I normally prefer to not watch films in that format.

[Mikeavelli]

I was not terribly fond of the 3D effects, and didn't even notice them existing for most of the movie.

I feel this way about most 3D films, and specifically gave Pacfic Rim another chance because I figured it's a giant robot action movie, it might actually have good 3D. It didn't. 3D is marginally better, but probably a waste of money overall.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

It is also a fanfic. Specifically someone's pet NGE AU fix-fic where they cut out all the "boring" stuff to make everything more "awesome" and stuff. It also ships Shinji/Rei and thinks Asuka is a dude and reaally really loved "Both of You, Dance Like You Want to Win!" I think. It also apparently really likes Independence Day.

Dude, it's obviously an It's Always Sunny fanfic — an in universe fanfic, to be specific. In order to imagine a world in which he impresses The Waitress with his freakish knowledge of Kaiju — which he was obviously able to learn given his advanced background in Bird Law — and the invaluable guidance he gave Mac (Charlie Hunnam) and Dee (Rinko Kikuchi), Charlie (Charlie Day Kelly) writes an epic story called Pacific Rim. Dennis (Idris Elba) finagled his way into being reimagined as a badass drill sergeant who leads and inspires the Jaeger Gang with his words. Frank (Ron Perlman), always a sleazy greaseball with a penchant for fake names, reinvents himself as Hannibal Chau and uses his connections with "bridge people" to sell the organs of the Kaiju — inhuman, otherworldly mutants that stand in for Charlie's longstanding enmity with the McPoyle family. Charlie's arrogance in the fic will give the waitress a chance to see his confidence and be impressed with not only his bravery and the breadth of his knowledge of rat/monster killing, but with his rock star charisma.
So, really, it's pretty much an obvious and incontrovertible fact that the only couple this film ships is the metafictional ship for Charlie/Waitress. I bid you good day, sir.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

You've got it all wrong.

Clearly, it's the gritty reboot of Gurren Lagann. They even kept the head-mech!

[warty goblin]

I didn't go into this expecting a deep plotline. Or a romantic sidestory. Or a heavy handed environmental message.

I got none of those things.

I got two hours worth of giant robots beating up giant monsters.

It was everything I expected and more.
Yes, but a kickass action movie is hardly mutually exclusive from an engaging and thought-provoking story and well done characters. See, for instance, District 9.


In order to prevent any spoilers, I have not read through this thread, so I'm asking a question that may have been answered already:

Should I see this in 3D or not? Which is better?

I saw it in 2D, but given how much of the film happens at night, and that it wasn't originally shot in 3D, I could see it getting really annoyingly dim with the glasses. It looks just fine in 2D, and is cheaper, so I'd go with that.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

and the fact that . . . the director says it wasn't put it.

To be fair, some pretty well respected theorists and critics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Barthes) have argued that this sort of thing doesn't matter (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathOfTheAuthor). Since I haven't actually seen the movie (though I stand by my It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia spin-off reading of the film), I can't really say whether or not I think his interpretation is justified, just that it's arguably irrelevant whether the director intended it to be interpreted that way.


Yes, but a kickass action movie is hardly mutually exclusive from an engaging and thought-provoking story and well done characters. See, for instance, District 9.

While I agree with the overall point, I don't agree that District 9 demonstrates it in the least.

[Seharvepernfan]

I saw it in 2D, but given how much of the film happens at night, and that it wasn't originally shot in 3D, I could see it getting really annoyingly dim with the glasses. It looks just fine in 2D, and is cheaper, so I'd go with that.

If it wasn't shot in 3D, and is often dark, then I think I will go with 2D. Thank you!

[Soras Teva Gee]

I didn't go into this expecting a deep plotline. Or a romantic sidestory. Or a heavy handed environmental message.

I got none of those things.

I got two hours worth of giant robots beating up giant monsters.

It was everything I expected and more.

It was really nice of the creators to remind us of all of those things in the first act just to point out how much they weren't actually doing them.

Along with all those "kooky and original" character designs on unimportant people just to show that they put thought into people who weren't going to do anything of siginifigance.

Its those extra little tidbits that really add to the whole movie.

[Jayngfet]

To be fair, some pretty well respected theorists and critics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Barthes) have argued that this sort of thing doesn't matter (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathOfTheAuthor). Since I haven't actually seen the movie (though I stand by my It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia spin-off reading of the film), I can't really say whether or not I think his interpretation is justified, just that it's arguably irrelevant whether the director intended it to be interpreted that way.

Death of the Author doesn't work here, by virtue of the obvious differences between modern cinema and older novels. Older novels were usually self contained and had only text, so you could read it all at once.

Pacific Rim already has a franchise planned with Del Toro being directly involved and much of it was planned out long before day one. You can't just sit there and read it and get the statement, because the whole thing is packed with quickly paced scenes, each packed with individual details you don't really have time to absorb unless you see it several times(I've missed plenty even just seeing it twice), and the teams intention WILL drive future productions, which Del Toro has said he'll be working with closely.

Their being a couple or not needs to be established now, because it'll affect the planned sequel, intended additional games and comics, and the whole thing at every level. Legendary is essentially still making Pacific Rim in the form of additional planned installments. If Pacific Rim catches on, these details can't really be considered up for interpretation.

Not to mention my own personal distaste regarding Death of the Author, which I'll freely admit to. The entire concept rubs me the wrong way since it basically means you can walk up to a guy who wrote 'the sky is blue' and tell him he REALLY meant everything was gloomy and dour even if the chapter or scene was comedic and upbeat. A writer can make unintended things happen when producing something, but this concept has been taken so far it's basically become a parody of itself within the Liberal Arts community specifically and with fandoms in general as well.

[Deathkeeper]

It was really nice of the creators to remind us of all of those things in the first act just to point out how much they weren't actually doing them.

Along with all those "kooky and original" character designs on unimportant people just to show that they put thought into people who weren't going to do anything of siginifigance.

Its those extra little tidbits that really add to the whole movie.

You're going to have to explain to me how there was an environmental message in there. Literally the closest thing was "by the time human society advanced the atmosphere was changed."
And really, I fail to see how you can call them "kooky and unoriginal" even sarcastically since they're all meant to be plays on classic archetypes. They were trying to be somewhat new takes on those of Mazinger and such, but they were not going out of their way to be 100% original. That was the point.

[MLai]

2D or 3D? 3D.

Will Jpnese ppl like this movie? I think they'll watch it, but nitpick it a lot. The aesthetics of the Jaegers and Kaijus are all oriented to Western tastes. The Jaegers are all too subdued in colors and design, basically looking like bubble-muscle sketches of humans, with a few practical armor plates slapped on. Jpnese super robots have a completely different silhouette.

The Kaiju that are featured prominently, look too much like dull-toned Del Toro Cloverfields. Del Toro himself had said that he didn't want to just copy the aesthetics of Jpnese kaiju, that he wanted his kaiju more alien in feel, and that he didn't want to give the kaiju relatable personalities that Jpnese kaiju often display... well this one I do believe, because he "succeeded" in doing that. I know I had said I found his Kaiju decent. But on reflection, they weren't *great* precisely because they had no personality.

My "problem" is your repeated assertions about elements that don't exist, that only you see, that aren't there because most of the moments used to establish them as being there are nonexistent. This is consistent behavior with you, since over multiple past discussions you've been seen doing the exact same thing. You keep asserting to the existence of a hackneyed, generic romance despite very few of these tropes existing, the only real reference to them being a couple was done as an insult, and the fact that again not only do a good deal of other people say they don't see it, the director says it wasn't put it.
(1) You disagreeing with me on multiple topics doesn't equal "consistent (wrong) behavior" on my part. It just means you disagree with me on multiple topics. Which is fine, except don't act self-righteous about it and addressing me in a condescending or angered tone. Notice I never did that with you. My condescension is usually saved for whichever sub-topic in question.

(2) The insult angle which you keep bringing up, I never brought up. Because I don't consider that young Australian a reliable witness, same as you. I agree with the young Aussie only due to other scenes in the film.

(3) A good deal of other ppl say they do see it, as well. And as someone else explained, what the director says means very little.

[Kitten Champion]

Well, Hideo Kojima liked it a lot.

From his twitter --


Dear twitter friends, The followings are my comment regarding "Pacific Rim". Luckily I was allowed to tweet in public by WB.

I have never imagined that I would be fortunate enough to see a film like this in my life.

The emotional rush I had inside me was the same kind I had when I felt the outer space via "2001: A Space Odyssey" and....

and when I had touched the dinosaur in "Jurassic Park". Animation and special effects movies and shows that I loved in my childhood days -

they all truly exist in the screen. Director Guillermo del Toro offers this spectacular vision of massive kaijus and robots in PACIFIC RIM.

This film is not simply a film to be respected, but most importantly, it let us dream the future of entertainment movies.

Pacific Rim is the ultimate otaku film that all of us had always been waiting for. Who are you, if you are Japanese and won't watch this?

I hope you would accept this inspirational love letter that had traveled across the Pacific, written by Director Guillermo del Toro.

Granted Hideo Kojima just represents Hideo Kojima.

[Jayngfet]

(1) You disagreeing with me on multiple topics doesn't equal "consistent (wrong) behavior" on my part. It just means you disagree with me on multiple topics. Which is fine, except don't act self-righteous about it and addressing me in a condescending or angered tone. Notice I never did that with you. My condescension is usually saved for whichever sub-topic in question.

{scrubbed}




(3) A good deal of other ppl say they do see it, as well. And as someone else explained, what the director says means very little.

As many people see it as not.

And as I explained, what the director says means a hell of a lot more than what you or I say, in this specific instance. Death of the author doesn't work when the author is building a franchise and the people behind it are planning a whole thing from day one. If the movie flops and we get nothing else the movie and comic are basically all we can use, but given the numbers the movie has pulled it's not unreasonable to assume that we'll be getting more material based on the stance they've put forward.

You can't really interpret one episode of a series as meaning X when it's not only intended to be Y, but the next episode works off the idea that it means Y anyway.


Well, Hideo Kojima liked it a lot.

It's a pretty safe assumption that once this opens in Japan(and China), there will be a significant boost in box office numbers. Enough to clear it's production budget certainly, though the real question is how will this movie will do after the theaters take their cut and the marketing budgets are added. Given this movies so far phenominal word of mouth buzz, and how people have been reacting overall in the audiences, I'm hopeful this'll be a decisive win for mecha movies overall. It's certainly doing way better than it's most pessimistic assumptions, and while it's being described as bring crushed by Grown Ups 2, it's holding it's own pretty damn well domestically and once you add international box office dollars it's making double Sandlers movie's revenue. It needs to just to break even, but again, I'm hopeful.

[Soras Teva Gee]

You're going to have to explain to me how there was an environmental message in there. Literally the closest thing was "by the time human society advanced the atmosphere was changed."

Remember crackpot science guy's little tidbit about "we practically terraformed it for them" right after his Vulcan Mind Meld?

It was quick, just enough to put another checkmark down on standard themes overused today.

I really gave that one a pass (one line, pish-tosh) and wouldn't have brought it up but felt no need to edit it out of the quote.



And really, I fail to see how you can call them "kooky and unoriginal" even sarcastically since they're all meant to be plays on classic archetypes. They were trying to be somewhat new takes on those of Mazinger and such, but they were not going out of their way to be 100% original. That was the point.

Ursa and Non from Superman II are classic archetypes?.... Seriously that's who the Russians were. Least visually. I about screamed "Non Doesn't Talk!" at his one line, because I was listening for one to see if that was the joke. The Chinese were maybe a little better, but why were there three of them? I'm not sure they had a line.

They weren't actual characters though so there's no actual archetype there to play.

They are literary junk. As in actual junk lying around in the story that should have been thrown out. Drawing attention to them only reveals how shallow the story actually is, because mere unique features does not make you a character.

And lets not get started on the meaningless science guys and an entire subplot that serious... is the sort of thing best handled by "flash of insight" in the final battle. Seriously all that subplot and another meaninglessly overly flashy character introduced for nothing. And cripes why did I have to put up with two of these guys and what the heck was up with cane guy. You needed a "traditional" scientist to oppose "that crackpot that turns out to be right" or something. We really didn't need that but then you couldn't come up with more then aping most famous scientist of the modern era. I mean he was supposed to be high function Steven Hawking right? Right?

Oh and going back a smidge, speaking Ron Perlman... easily the most transparent attempt at recreating "the Boba Fett" type ultracool side character Ensemble Darkhorse I've ever seen. Right down to that last stunt.

Heck I'll give the Marshal (who's obviously American so wtf there?) a free pass just for kicks and actually say they got our rival pilot guys about right... and we've still got a cast with enough "flair" to fill out the oddball slot on any five television shows, only not spread out among shows and over the course of a season.

Oh and Shark Woman might have been interesting if her plot didn't resolve itself offscreen and then she disappeared in the third act only to suddenly reapear. No she wasn't on screen, that was a solo mission.

Then again that is when the movie finally settled down and decided to become a triangle between Maverick and Iceman (w/ Viper) and not Maverick and Goose. And it kinda worked. Would have been nice for that to have been the whole movie.

Then again that would mean it had a basic, minimalist, and functioning plot and not just a bunch of pieces dragged out and dazzled in front of to show the writer couldn't write his way out of a paper bag.

Less would truly have been more here.

What's there I got the impression was more like a TV series where you'd have at least a season to work with and needed a lot more unique (except we didn't get that) character design to carry the plot arc and fill out the time.

That would make a lot of sense actually since this was totally ripping anime which love those big meaty non-reducible works. Probably how the story was written (did you note it got its own separate credit) then the whole fic got cut in all the wrong places to make a movie.

It truly terrible. Then again mediocrity is almost the new terrible these days so it was a breath of fresh air almost. Or perhaps smelling bad is just more interesting then not smelling like anything, which is pretty standard.

Probably why I loved this movie. Finally something recent to join Battleship on the so-bad-its-good pile. Though I guess others might not appreciate Battleship's merits as much as I do.

[Deathkeeper]

{scrubbed}
Anyway, I want to comment on what you just wrote, but you just made references to about five characters I don't know, so I really can't respond much.

[Jayngfet]

Ursa and Non from Superman II are classic archetypes?.... Seriously that's who the Russians were. Least visually. I about screamed "Non Doesn't Talk!" at his one line, because I was listening for one to see if that was the joke. The Chinese were maybe a little better, but why were there three of them? I'm not sure they had a line.

They weren't actual characters though so there's no actual archetype there to play.


I've probably said this like three times now but I can't harp on this enough. PAY ATTENTION TO THE BACKGROUNDS. The triplets show up pretty regularly in the background and manage to get their collective personality across without actually needing to say anything, through use of gesture and prop. You can get actual emotion and a group dynamic from how they walk and what they do.




They are literary junk. As in actual junk lying around in the story that should have been thrown out. Drawing attention to them only reveals how shallow the story actually is, because mere unique features does not make you a character.


Or perhaps, like every other background character, they're there to make the world an actually populated, real place? I mean there were dozens of such groups that didn't have attention drawn to them because they weren't pilots. Should the dudes in oxygen suits have been thrown out? What about the Kaiju cultists? I mean they didn't have any lines, so obviously by your logic they should just be thrown out.



And lets not get started on the meaningless science guys and an entire subplot that serious... is the sort of thing best handled by "flash of insight" in the final battle. Seriously all that subplot and another meaninglessly overly flashy character introduced for nothing. And cripes why did I have to put up with two of these guys and what the heck was up with cane guy. You needed a "traditional" scientist to oppose "that crackpot that turns out to be right" or something. We really didn't need that but then you couldn't come up with more then aping most famous scientist of the modern era. I mean he was supposed to be high function Steven Hawking right? Right?


Neither of them were normal or traditional. They harp on each other specifically because of how weird the other is. Again, pay attention to the background and don't expect the movie to hold your hand. When one is talking, even when the other isn't in focus you can see he's reacting to what the other is saying and displaying how that character fits into the setting. They were both crackpots who were right. Their entire subplot was to reinforce the theme of "people who don't normally get along need to work together, finding out they had more in common than they thought".




Oh and going back a smidge, speaking Ron Perlman... easily the most transparent attempt at recreating "the Boba Fett" type ultracool side character Ensemble Darkhorse I've ever seen. Right down to that last stunt.


You mean that obvious joke? I mean again, pay attention to the movie in front of you. He wasn't being cool, he was feeding a load of blatant crap to you. He says "I took one look at him and had it figured out", even though you saw him run like a little girl before the other guy even shows up.





Then again that would mean it had a basic, minimalist, and functioning plot and not just a bunch of pieces dragged out and dazzled in front of to show the writer couldn't write his way out of a paper bag.



This isn't a minimalist plot. It's a movie that's supposed to take place in it's own setting that reflects that with how the characters act. You know, all those characters you couldn't stand and didn't seem to notice when they weren't in the foreground. Hence why from the first moments we saw all those shots of museum pieces and early robots that were in no other scenes and why the characters kept referencing events that weren't shown.

This was never meant to be a simple, turn your brain off movie. It's not a terribly complex plot in and of itself, but everything around the plot is what you're supposed to be focusing on.



Probably why I loved this movie. Finally something recent to join Battleship on the so-bad-its-good pile. Though I guess others might not appreciate Battleship's merits as much as I do.

Battleship was just plain bad.

As an aside, I realize I'm coming off as more than a little pretentious in this post(more like really, REALLY pretentious, so I'll try to tone it down in future posts) but seriously dude? "Might not appreciate Battleship's merits as much as I do."?

[The Glyphstone]

Battleship's only merit is that it has none, is fully aware of this fact, and doesn't try to pretend it's any good. But that's Battleship.

[turkishproverb]

Oh damn was this move grade-A terrible.

No, it's not. Grade A terrible would be something like Manos: The hands of Fate.


Seriously folks this I think script-writing classes can use this movie as an object lesson in how to NOT write a script. Its all tell and no show for all that truly mindless action, its clearly more obsessed with its concepts then the only thing that actually matters: the story.

If it's all tell with no show how come there are extended flashback sequences?

And mindless action? Action, I'd give you, but it was less mindless than I see in many films.

And the story happens in detail. hence that whole "lots of flashbacks" thing, as well as the myriad plots. It was military fiction, but a story is a story.



It is also a fanfic. Specifically someone's pet NGE AU fix-fic where they cut out all the "boring" stuff to make everything more "awesome" and stuff. It also ships Shinji/Rei and thinks Asuka is a dude and reaally really loved "Both of You, Dance Like You Want to Win!" I think. It also apparently really likes Independence Day.


...You need to watch an anime prior to 1996.

...And how is it like Independence Day? Because of a "destroy the enemy base" plot? Really?



Actually let me check.... Travis Beacham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travis_Beacham)... ahh he was born in 1980 so was is just in the range to have had both be very formative events in his life. That explains everything really

Sure, and the fact Del Toro was involved means nothing. Heck. I was born later than that and my favorite films are Rashamon and Duck Soup. My formitive action influence was Empire strikes back, followed probably by BTAS.

I've seen Eva. It's a ridiculously derivative show that retreats up itself to the point it fails to even deconstruct properly. You want to deconstruct Japanese giant robot or monster storytelling tropes? Read some Go Nagai.


I'm just glad I was able to start laughing at every ridiculous cliche and just off-the-shelf stock character. I seriously am going to have to watch this movie drunk someday with friend, its better then Battleship for laughing at. Loved it.

...

...

Well, there are parts you're supposed to laugh. I'm going to be nice and assume you meant those, rather than get into a very serious fight here.


Also it is nice to know that CGI can be done well and can finally support some of the more ludicrous premises of anime.

That it is, that it is. Mind, I doubt people would appreciate a fair bit of them. Too...esoteric.


Remember crackpot science guy's little tidbit about "we practically terraformed it for them" right after his Vulcan Mind Meld?

It was quick, just enough to put another checkmark down on standard themes overused today.

I really gave that one a pass (one line, pish-tosh) and wouldn't have brought it up but felt no need to edit it out of the quote.


Yea, it's an explanation for why they're only doing this now. One that was needed. The desperate instinct of some to divide instead of unite vis-a-vis politicians pushing the wall even when it's not working would seem to be the more obvious theme.


Ursa and Non from Superman II are classic archetypes?.... Seriously that's who the Russians were. Least visually. I about screamed "Non Doesn't Talk!" at his one line, because I was listening for one to see if that was the joke. The Chinese were maybe a little better, but why were there three of them? I'm not sure they had a line.

They weren't actual characters though so there's no actual archetype there to play.

They are literary junk. As in actual junk lying around in the story that should have been thrown out. Drawing attention to them only reveals how shallow the story actually is, because mere unique features does not make you a character.



1. There were 3 because the mech's design required a second arm on one side, and so needed further pull in their brains. It was obvious.

2. The russians were minor characters, and while "big russian guy" is a cliche, it's also not inherently wrong to use it.

Man, that War and Peace. What crap. So many useless characters. It should have been like...10 people. max.



And lets not get started on the meaningless science guys and an entire subplot that serious... is the sort of thing best handled by "flash of insight" in the final battle. Seriously all that subplot and another meaninglessly overly flashy character introduced for nothing. And cripes why did I have to put up with two of these guys and what the heck was up with cane guy. You needed a "traditional" scientist to oppose "that crackpot that turns out to be right" or something. We really didn't need that but then you couldn't come up with more then aping most famous scientist of the modern era. I mean he was supposed to be high function Steven Hawking right? Right?

Or, they were a loving reference to the "quirky scientists" in almost every kaiju and robot series ever, dating back to Godzilla and ASTRO BOY. There's always that.

Also you're missing the actual solution that happened. Both the quirky guy and the traditionalist were right. One about the nature of the creatures and drifting, the other about the numbers. The guy predicted a double event, then a triple. And he was right.

It was a subversion there.

And you know what your "flash of insight" idea is in narrative terms? Crap coming out of nowhere. It's a gaping plot hole in the making. Somehow the combat pilot will "just know" it'll bounce again. Yea, that wouldn't seem forced. Or maybe this is the first time they try to close the rift, and it works! Because yea, that wouldn't have happened before they built giant robots.


Oh and going back a smidge, speaking Ron Perlman... easily the most transparent attempt at recreating "the Boba Fett" type ultracool side character Ensemble Darkhorse I've ever seen. Right down to that last stunt.

Or, he was a reference to war profiteers and classic gangster characters. Really, he had shades of a Dashiell Hammett villain. Literary classic because he's an oddity in the work.


Heck I'll give the Marshal (who's obviously American so wtf there?) a free pass just for kicks and actually say they got our rival pilot guys about right... and we've still got a cast with enough "flair" to fill out the oddball slot on any five television shows, only not spread out among shows and over the course of a season.

1. Uniting militaries to fight the Kaiju was covered in the plot.

2. Accents slipping in a film. I think you've just eliminated many award-winners as having merit.

3. So These cliches are ok, but only these?

[/QUOTE]Oh and Shark Woman might have been interesting if her plot didn't resolve itself offscreen and then she disappeared in the third act only to suddenly reapear. No she wasn't on screen, that was a solo mission. [/QUOTE]

...what?

[/QUOTE]Then again that is when the movie finally settled down and decided to become a triangle between Maverick and Iceman (w/ Viper) and not Maverick and Goose. And it kinda worked. Would have been nice for that to have been the whole movie. [/QUOTE]

..what?

[/QUOTE]Then again that would mean it had a basic, minimalist, and functioning plot and not just a bunch of pieces dragged out and dazzled in front of to show the writer couldn't write his way out of a paper bag. [/QUOTE]

Yea, the guy who penned Pan's Labyrinth can't write.

You get a plot that's more cohesive than the films you're referencing, and you're acting like it's not there?

[/QUOTE]Less would truly have been more here.[/QUOTE]

...and yet you're complaining the film doesn't "show" enough?

[/QUOTE]What's there I got the impression was more like a TV series where you'd have at least a season to work with and needed a lot more unique (except we didn't get that) character design to carry the plot arc and fill out the time. [/QUOTE]

...can you rephrase this?.



That would make a lot of sense actually since this was totally ripping anime which love those big meaty non-reducible works. Probably how the story was written (did you note it got its own separate credit) then the whole fic got cut in all the wrong places to make a movie.

Non-reducible. That's why Mobile Suit Gundam is better as a movie trilogy than a series. And why Kikaider was more critically appreciated as a dozen or so episode anime than a 50 episode live action series. Or why the Eva movies have better plotting than much of the series.

And separate story-credits happen all the time.

Also, again: NGE fanfic is the quite low on the list of things I expect this started as when it came to giant robots.


t truly terrible. Then again mediocrity is almost the new terrible these days so it was a breath of fresh air almost. Or perhaps smelling bad is just more interesting then not smelling like anything, which is pretty standard.

Probably why I loved this movie. Finally something recent to join Battleship on the so-bad-its-good pile. Though I guess others might not appreciate Battleship's merits as much as I do.

...You haven't watched a truly terrible movie in a long long time if you think this is one. And, frankly, you seem like you haven't looked at a homage or metafictional piece in a long time.

Although one could argue Battleship was a homage to Transformers 2...:smalltongue:

[Tiki Snakes]

Heck I'll give the Marshal (who's obviously American so wtf there?) a free pass just for kicks and actually say they got our rival pilot guys about right...

...Obviously american? You mean the Marshal with the pronounced and undisguised British Accent, played by a British Actor? (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0252961/bio)

I mean, there might be a touch of american in there, given that he's worked in America quite a bit, but so has the Marshal by all accounts.

[Chen]

I enjoyed this movie. Decent action and a bit of plot to go along with it. Pretty much what I expected when going in. One thing that really bothered me though:

They really shouldn't have used that nuke at the end to kill those Kaiju. It completely undermined the whole concept of using giant robots to fight them. You KNOW where the rift is. Whenever you detect a new Kaiju, drop a couple dozen nukes down there (or one really big one). It would be WAY cheaper than building those $100 billion dollar Jaegers. Maybe build a couple of giant robots to standby NEAR the rift just to deal with anything that survives the nukes. Knowing where the enemy is coming from is a HUGE deal. I gotta wonder why there wasn't some sort of base setup near the rift instead of on the coasts. Hell even just dropping some bombs (non-nuclear) whenever the Kaiju spawned from the rift would at the very least weaken them a bit so that the Jaegers would have an advantage.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I've probably said this like three times now but I can't harp on this enough. Pay attention to the backgrounds. The triplets show up pretty regularly in the background and manage to get their collective personality across without actually needing to say anything, through use of gesture and prop. You can get actual emotion and a group dynamic from how they walk and what they do.

Which might be nice if they went anywhere or the movie actually used them in any capacity.

Like seriously most of the script they just get all dressed up and then don't actually go anywhere.

This movie is so full of dead wood I could probably heat my house all winter once I got done chopping it all out. Not sure what would be left but I guess you could then steal notes from Top Gun to get your plot back to functioning. That almost worked and needed expansion.


Or perhaps, like every other background character, they're there to make the world an actually populated, real place? I mean there were dozens of such groups that didn't have attention drawn to them because they weren't pilots. Should the dudes in oxygen suits have been thrown out? What about the Kaiju cultists? I mean they didn't have any lines, so obviously by your logic they should just be thrown out.

That's the really problem, this is a movie more obsessed with its setting and concepts then its actual story. Which lacks any central theme and instead has a hodgepodge of elements that appear and disappear without ever going anywhere.

Now its not all bad. The cultist thing? That worked actually, bit standard but there and done without fuss in the course of a conversation. I'd have cut it but only because the subplot its attached to is wasting my time. But could have included it in some other way.


Neither of them were normal or traditional. They harp on each other specifically because of how weird the other is.

Or because someone watched a bit too much Big Bang Theory.

Problem is the movie didn't need them. It told a complete side-plot here maybe, only for no real pay-off. Its whole upshot was the sort of thing that could have been done with the hero figuring out that idea. And shook up some minutes to focus making the main characters more then cardboard cut-outs.



This isn't a minimalist plot. It's a movie that's supposed to take place in it's own setting that reflects that with how the characters act. You know, all those characters you couldn't stand and didn't seem to notice when they weren't in the foreground. Hence why from the first moments we saw all those shots of museum pieces and early robots that were in no other scenes and why the characters kept referencing events that weren't shown.

No I did notice them and that's the problem. I'm looking for them to be more faceless an uninteresting so they don't distract from the actual main action. All those added details are so much dead wood. Maybe if this was a TV show and I was going to have several episodes to flesh out that cast that batch of special and unique snowflakes would have worked out.

As is, yeah this wasn't minimalist. It also largely wasn't a plot.


Battleship was just plain bad.

As an aside, I realize I'm coming off as more than a little pretentious in this post(more like really, REALLY pretentious, so I'll try to tone it down in future posts) but seriously dude? "Might not appreciate Battleship's merits as much as I do."?

Well I just happen to think its extremely fun to have a whole extra set of things to make fun of when your ex-Navy and watched it with some fellow Navy guys. We all agreed it would be at its "best" several months into the middle of deployment.


No, it's not. Grade A terrible would be something like Manos: The hands of Fate.

Nah to steal from Japan that would be "S" because its above even A. And its seriously an amateur film so it while great for laughs is the sort of thing you'd ignore in the grand scheme of things.




If it's all tell with no show how come there are extended flashback sequences?

You mean all one of them?

And I'm not sure what it actually showed anyways. Fortunately they had already told me ahead of time. I was more concerned with how Shark Woman and Protagionist's traumas just sort of disappeared and stopped being the main plot in the third act.


...You need to watch an anime prior to 1996.

...And how is it like Independence Day? Because of a "destroy the enemy base" plot? Really?

Care to suggest any and which ones had influence on this movie?

Admittedly my super robot end is light but I've seen Macross, and some of the Gundam's. I guess waaaaay back as a kid I also saw the Macekre's Voltron and Teknoman but I'm not counting those.

And seriously dude Marshal's speech is totally lifted from President Lone Starr in ID4. Even the camera angle so help me. I thought of this and have found it independently (http://blog.sfgate.com/thebigevent/2013/07/12/cineprep-six-things-to-do-before-seeing-pacific-rim/) so I know its not me.


I've seen Eva. It's a ridiculously derivative show that retreats up itself to the point it fails to even deconstruct properly. You want to deconstruct Japanese giant robot or monster storytelling tropes? Read some Go Nagai.

What I said: this movie is cribs its notes from NGE

What you said: NGE sucks.

The two are not mutually exclusive and if that's you argument then perhaps you are suffering from a bit of myopia that needs to tear Eva down anywhere to the point its an irrelevant footnote in the mecha genre that never had any impact.

Me I actually don't consider stealing from NGE a problem really. Remeber I liked the movie. My take on Eva's (particularly visual aesthetic) is such that you in many ways couldn't have done it before (no tech/budget for it) and that after it it just plain works such that unless you arc doing a deliberate throwback look its simply a big part of *how* you make a modern looking mecha piece. Only so many ways to skin a cat

And Go Nagai? I'm only passingly familiar with that but I didn't see much connection to what I know about Getter

Well, there are parts you're supposed to laugh. I'm going to be nice and assume you meant those, rather than get into a very serious fight here.



Yea, it's an explanation for why they're only doing this now. One that was needed. The desperate instinct of some to divide instead of unite vis-a-vis politicians pushing the wall even when it's not working would seem to be the more obvious theme.

Would have been if they hadn't just kinda forgot about that whole thing. Just became another irrelevant rabbit trail that didn't go anywhere.

I don't think I can name a work were Act III has less connection in theme to Act I.


1. There were 3 because the mech's design required a second arm on one side, and so needed further pull in their brains. It was obvious.

Your missing the point. I *know* that. Its an obvious detail. The problem is there nothing for it. Its *just* a detail there to make the character design seem a bit more "special" or whatever. This isn't some team movie where you see everyone show off unique talents or whatever. You would have needed people to talk to do that, not just be there.

And it probably would end up awkward with the control scheme inflating the characters needed logically.



Man, that War and Peace. What crap. So many useless characters. It should have been like...10 people. max.

Which in a 1956 film clocked in at 208 minutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_and_Peace_%281956_film%29) or 3.46 hours, so roughly and hour longer. Its noted to be a condensed version. The presumably more complete Soviet Series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_and_Peace_%28film_series%29) in four parts was originally 431 minutes or over 7 hours.

Not that its entirely impossible to do a fair sized group of characters well in 2.5 hours. This movie simply failed to do so though.



Or, they were a loving reference to the "quirky scientists" in almost every kaiju and robot series ever, dating back to Godzilla and ASTRO BOY. There's always that.

Original Godzilla/Gojira is a good counter-example as the scientist is completely vital to that film to the point of being the hero and maybe even protagonist. Also it hammers in the science horror aspect with the Oxygen Destroyer's central pathos being the fear it would be even worse then Godzilla, driving Serizawa's suicide.

This movie they've got a whole subplot for what amounts to merely secondary info. Oh sure its ostensibly important info, but its not a revelation that couldn't have been handled far more simply. Figuring out how just nuking the tunnel would work at all might have been worth the subplot, not merely subverting the firewall.



And you know what your "flash of insight" idea is in narrative terms? Crap coming out of nowhere. It's a gaping plot hole in the making. Somehow the combat pilot will "just know" it'll bounce again. Yea, that wouldn't seem forced. Or maybe this is the first time they try to close the rift, and it works! Because yea, that wouldn't have happened before they built giant robots.

Let's be clear the grand plan wasn't exactly all that clever anyways but it would have been serviceable without the subplot.


Or, he was a reference to war profiteers and classic gangster characters. Really, he had shades of a Dashiell Hammett villain. Literary classic because he's an oddity in the work.

Which could have been done without the footwear I think.

And he's only in an irrelevant waste of my time.


3. So These cliches are ok, but only these?

Sure quantity not quality here. I'm not expecting this to be Oscar-bait or anything. I will settle for a basic plot to string together the action. I got a tangled overcomplicated mess that didn't go anywhere.


...what?

She wasn't in the last act except at the very end when she mysteriously reappeared. Don't believe your eyes because she wasn't there.

GlaDOS had more of a role as the computer voice.


..what?

You never saw Top Gun?


Yea, the guy who penned Pan's Labyrinth can't write.

Story got a separate credit that wasn't him. Which is well... strange.

And whatever came from him on the screeplay and direction didn't amount to much.

And past performance is no guarantee of future results.


[/QUOTE]...can you rephrase this?.[/QUOTE]

Yeah lets see... I felt the movie had about the quality and style of TV writing. There were too many ideas for the time availible and nothing was cut right to make it work.


Non-reducible. That's why Mobile Suit Gundam is better as a movie trilogy than a series. And why Kikaider was more critically appreciated as a dozen or so episode anime than a 50 episode live action series. Or why the Eva movies have better plotting than much of the series.

And separate story-credits happen all the time.

All still longer then our format here I'd note. (And that's presuming your right and they are better I can only judge NGE from experience)

Rebuild's pieces certainly wouldn't work as stand alone films, no real resolution and all that. I can't judge if they'd work without the series as a baseline to orient yourself on. Also 3.33 went completely off the rails and ends up just well, bad. Unless the point was confusion, loneliness, and bewilderment to be repaid later in 4.44 there's just not much in the third to be had. Then again maybe I'm biased here too by expect closer adherence to the original series.



Although one could argue Battleship was a homage to Transformers 2...:smalltongue:

Well its certainly was told "be Michael Bay" so that's plausible.


...Obviously american? You mean the Marshal with the pronounced and undisguised British Accent, played by a British Actor? (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0252961/bio)

I mean, there might be a touch of american in there, given that he's worked in America quite a bit, but so has the Marshal by all accounts.

Well if that's the case then... yeah fair enough.

I seriously didn't hear it, but I only speak American. :smalltongue:

[Deathkeeper]

I fail to see how this movie could steal from NGE when the people who made it said they specifically never saw it and there isn't a real reason for them to lie about that.

More importantly, I barely see the parallels. Other than being a part of a Mecha-based worldwide resistance, I really don't see any real comparisons. But maybe it's because I find 80% of Eva's cast annoying as hell so any set of characters that are less dysfunctional I consider different.

[mangosta71]

Once again, I'm left wondering if I saw the same movie that everyone else in the thread apparently saw. The only redeeming feature of this movie was the action, which I admit was pretty cool for the most part. Everything else was terrible.

[supermonkeyjoe]

I think the problem a lot of people are having with this film, especially those who are saying there was too much tell and not enough show, is with Guillermo Del Toro's style.

He does show, but most of it is in the little details, the events in the background, the world that's presented to you, subtle hints and little details that set the scene. I came out of the film with no qualms whatsoever about the film, everything clicked just right.

It was a beautiful homage to Japanese Kaiju and Giant Robot Genre with some of the best action sequences I've seen.

This was everything I expected and more. This film was made for me, it is my new favourite film.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Well if my presence isn't enough consolation... at least the box office evidently agreed. :smallyuk:

Hmm have we had two high profile flops in a row recently? Or this close togther at all.

At least this movie I can *totally* understand the budget, and it was well used. Won't pay off much, but I can see where you'd need money like 190 mil to make this movie. I don't know how you can spend 215 million on a Western.

[Aidan305]

Saw the movie last night and thought that it was great fun. I'll agree with those in the thread who say that it wasn't an amazing movie. Objectively, it lacked a lot. However, that didn't stop me from catching myself pretending that I was piloting a giant mech as I was driving home. The movie managed to evoke a sense of wonder and child-like enthusiasm in me and that was precisely what I was looking for out of the film. Pacific Rim isn't a terrible film, far from it. It's fun, and silly, and plays with all of the tropes and stereotypes native to the genres that it is a homage to.
I think that Movie Bob (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escape-to-the-movies/7705-Pacific-Rim) says it best though.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I think that Movie Bob (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escape-to-the-movies/7705-Pacific-Rim) says it best though.

More ID4 comparison... and glad to know someone else got Ayanami.

I really gotta disagree with the 3D character sound bite though. Unless he saw it in 3D which here is completely understandable especially if also IMAX.

[Karoht]

I want to ask a question of Del Toro.

If this film turned out this good, then what bloody excuse do you have for the hack job you pulled on Hellboy 2?

On Topic:
At first I was like... ^______^
But then I was like... ^_____^ <3 <3 <3
And at the end I was like... @____@ <3 <3 <3 !!!!!!!!!

Great characters, not one ounce of wasted dialogue, not one dull moment. I had to pop out to the bathroom, I felt I was treating the film with disrespect.

That.
Was the movie I was waiting for. Worth seeing in 3D but not necessary. Either way the 3D isn't a complete waste of money.
Movie Bob was 100% right. Go see it.
Soundtrack is awesome, bought it just after the show. I adore that main theme, and Ramin Djawadi seems to be the new John Williams IMO.
If there are games I will likely play them.
If there are graphic novels I WILL buy them.

And now I wonder about sequel potential. Not that it needs one, but I do sincerely hope there is one.

Sequel Talk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Rim_(film)#Potential_sequel

My thoughts, if they want to continue with that whole idea of 'we made monsters of our own' theme...
After the rift is closed, the world is left with a buildup of post Kaiju war tech. It leads to a cold war between nations which fragments them, followed by a real war. Mass production Jaegers see service as weapons of war among the nations.
So everyone is caught completely by surprise when the rifts reopen, or the Kaiju menace is again thrust upon the world in some other way.

[Tiki Snakes]

I want to ask a question of Del Toro.

If this film turned out this good, then what bloody excuse do you have for the hack job you pulled on Hellboy 2?

On Topic:
At first I was like... ^______^
But then I was like... ^_____^ <3 <3 <3
And at the end I was like... @____@ <3 <3 <3 !!!!!!!!!

Great characters, not one ounce of wasted dialogue, not one dull moment. I had to pop out to the bathroom, I felt I was treating the film with disrespect.

That.
Was the movie I was waiting for. Worth seeing in 3D but not necessary. Either way the 3D isn't a complete waste of money.
Movie Bob was 100% right. Go see it.
Soundtrack is awesome, bought it just after the show. I adore that main theme, and Ramin Djawadi seems to be the new John Williams IMO.
If there are games I will likely play them.
If there are graphic novels I WILL buy them.

And now I wonder about sequel potential. Not that it needs one, but I do sincerely hope there is one.

Sequel Talk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Rim_(film)#Potential_sequel

My thoughts, if they want to continue with that whole idea of 'we made monsters of our own' theme...
After the rift is closed, the world is left with a buildup of post Kaiju war tech. It leads to a cold war between nations which fragments them, followed by a real war. Mass production Jaegers see service as weapons of war among the nations.
So everyone is caught completely by surprise when the rifts reopen, or the Kaiju menace is again thrust upon the world in some other way.


What? I loved Hellboy 2.
Did you have a problem with the Barry Manilow scene perhaps? :smallbiggrin:

[Karoht]

What? I loved Hellboy 2.
Did you have a problem with the Barry Manilow scene perhaps? :smallbiggrin:
I rather enjoyed that scene actually. I'll toss the remainder of my rant into a spoiler, because off-topic:

Prince: "I'm going to sick this 'last of it's kind' monster on you, for really no reason, because I'm not going to actually try and escape while you fight it!"
Princess: "No brother no!" *worst acted line in history*
Prince: "Make my monster grow."
*Later, in the Hellboy cave*
Princess: "I could solve this whole thing by being honest and turning over the crown piece and letting them destroy it before my brother gets here, thereby rendering the superweapon useless and the whole thing moot. Heck, I could warn them that he will be on his way here right away. Or not."
Abe Sapien, Super Genius: "I have the final crown piece. I could hand it over to my friends, who could destroy it, rendering the superweapon useless. And since the Prince can't hurt the Princess without hurting/killing himself, the whole thing is moot so he would probably just let her go. Or not.
Also, I'm really smart, and I'm really good at chess."
Princess: "I could solve everything by killing myself, or hurting myself to create a momentary distraction. Or not.
Nope, I'll be a completely useless trope damsel just because. No reason."
Liz: "I'm only here to provide slight romantic tension. And be a host of other tropes at the same time."

My head hurt very very much while watching that film, pretty much non-stop. Granted, it wasn't the worst film ever, Uwe Boll didn't make it. But, anyone who read that script had to have had some inkling that something was wrong. IE-The Director. Ergo my question, what is his excuse?
Granted, he was working with a lot of the same people doing Pan's Labyrinth at the same time, I could see him being slightly confused.

Meanwhile, he turns out solid gold in Pacific Rim. Maybe he just liked giant robots more?

PS-I totally forgot to mention how awesome Idris Elba's acting job was. Yeah, "cancelling the apolcalypse" was a bit cheesey, but everything else from him was absolutely solid gold. Platinum even.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I want to ask a question of Del Toro.

If this film turned out this good, then what bloody excuse do you have for the hack job you pulled on Hellboy 2?

Since I've never actually gotten around to watching Pan Labyrinth and was kinda take or leave on both Hellboys (I's technically speaking better, II is a bit more watchable/fun) as movies I'm kinda questioning this "good director" rep personally.

There's some competence sure and he know his way around a fight scene and monster design but he gets talked about at a sort of elevated level I can't actually attest personally he deserves.


And now I wonder about sequel potential. Not that it needs one, but I do sincerely hope there is one.

No need to wonder with a #3 opening of 38 mil, a 190 mil budget, and no supporting source material there is no sequel potential.

Success these days seems to be somewhere in covering your production budget domestically, so overseas and disc can cover the marketing and start actually turning a profit. And to do that with these big money movies you seem to need to break 100 mil on the first weekend.

Unless something odd occurs like a merchandising homerun or something. Ostensibly unlikely since the kids are going to see Despicable Me 2 this month.

[Jayngfet]

Well if my presence isn't enough consolation... at least the box office evidently agreed. :smallyuk:

Hmm have we had two high profile flops in a row recently? Or this close togther at all.

At least this movie I can *totally* understand the budget, and it was well used. Won't pay off much, but I can see where you'd need money like 190 mil to make this movie. I don't know how you can spend 215 million on a Western.

Pacific Rim made about half it's production budget back on opening weekend along and has yet to open in some of it's largest markets. The theaters talk of PacRim "trailing behind" is an exagerration, since Grown Ups 2 is only doing marginally better domestically(like a few million and less than a 5% difference), and once you figure in international markets Pacific Rim is actually making more than twice the money of it's competitor easily.

The box office doesn't agree with you {scrubbed}



Or because someone watched a bit too much Big Bang Theory.



That show is terrible and any comparisons are both unfounded and show your entire opinion is based on "Well I like these popular things, obviously this entire plot is based entirely around popular things I like!"





Care to suggest any and which ones had influence on this movie?

Admittedly my super robot end is light but I've seen Macross, and some of the Gundam's. I guess waaaaay back as a kid I also saw the Macekre's Voltron and Teknoman but I'm not counting those.



{Scrubbed}

Gipsy Danger is blatantly inspired by Mazinger Z. That's not even up for debate. It has all the same iconic moves. VOTOMS and Patlabor were pretty blatantly the inspirations for Cherno Alpha, to the point where the pilot suits were a rather obvious nod to this, sharing the same color and faceplate. Crimson Typhoon is a mecha obviously meant to evoke the idea of the three man mecha teams from Getter Robo/Zambot 3/Aquarion/All those other popular mecha that have popped up over DECADES that you somehow were never aware of. The whole piloting system has shades of both Godanner and Gunbuster.

On a broader scale Getter Robo is pretty much this things obvious descendant. The whole allusion to dinosaurs(getters iconic enemy), the costuming and design decisions, the use of morally questionable scientists, the need for multiple pilots. Though the entire "head attaches to main body" is such a clear reference to Kotatsu Jeeg, combined with all the obvious Mazinger influences and general stylistic choices clearly done to look like an old Dynamic Productions anime given an actual budget. Which the actual people there were ok with, considering that Go Nagai, the godfather of super fighting robots himself and co-creator of these big influences, heartily approves.

Those last few were also the inspiration for Evangelion. The entire premise for Eva only really works from a meta perspective if you're at least vaguely aware that the tropes made by those three or four shows were popular and widely used.

Hell, Del Toro didn't even SEE Evangelion until the movie was done. Some other people in the cast and crew saw it, but Del Toro was adamant that a large number of the people involved at least saw a good deal of other stuff, including plenty of stuff I haven't even mentioned here but had nothing to do with Evangelion. Hell, even now that they're talking plans for the sequel the elements that look more Evangelionesque are obviously drawn from Getter Robo more directly all things considered.

[BRC]

No need to wonder with a #3 opening of 38 mil, a 190 mil budget, and no supporting source material there is no sequel potential.

Success these days seems to be somewhere in covering your production budget domestically, so overseas and disc can cover the marketing and start actually turning a profit. And to do that with these big money movies you seem to need to break 100 mil on the first weekend.

Unless something odd occurs like a merchandising homerun or something. Ostensibly unlikely since the kids are going to see Despicable Me 2 this month.

Sadly, this is probably true. The Sequels-and-Remakes philosophy works because it stirs up free publicity as people say "Did you hear? They're making a movie of ______". Pacfic Rim, as an original property, had to stand entierly on it's own merits. It had the benefit of being a relatively unique concept, which helped spread the word, but didn't fill theaters.

The movie itself was great in my opinion, better than your average brainless action movie. Word-of-Mouth will probably convince people who were in the target market to go see it, but it dosn't have any real potential to break into any new demographics. I don't see action-movie buffs getting into it, since it's too far away from your standard action-movie fantasy (using Die Hard or the Borne movies as a standard) of a lone badass hero taking down bad guys.

The framing device of the movie leaves lots of room for great stories (The 15 or so years between the first Kaiju attacks and the events of the film), but no big Events that would be good fodder for a major film. You could have the portal re-open, but then it would seem like a retread.

That said, the concept itself is highly minable for adaptations. I doubt we'll be seeing another big-budget film, but I could easily see a comic series being made (That's a fairly low-cost way to appeal to fans). In addition, while I heard the inevitable tie-in video games are terrible, given a proper development cycle, I could see a very good game being made. Perhaps centered around a vs mode, where players can customize Jaegers and Kaiju and have multiplayer battles.

I wouldn't be surprised if this movie develops a cult following, and it may be remembered as a great film, but I very much doubt it's going to go down as a major commercial success.

[Karoht]

@Reopening the Portal

Kaiju/Jaeger hybrid was mentioned on the wiki article in regards to a sequel.
There are plenty of people in-universe who could have a motive for actively working towards reopening the portal.
Hannibal Chau. His business is now effectively dead. Without cloning tech or a reopened/new portal. He also could have caught some kind of disease while inside the newborn.
Newt was connected to the hive mind and was already a Kaiju Fanboy, though I will credit him with enough fear/common sense to NOT reopen that portal, and his brother was connected as well, but he doesn't seem the type to intentionally reopen the portal. I wonder how strong the connection is, and how powerful the leaders minds are.
Plenty of spoiler hooks involving the portal. Lots more if they ignore the portal and focus on earth struggling amongst one another after the Kaiju War is over.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread seems to be a bit hostile overall. Please remember to be civil toward others and abide by the Forum Rules.

[John Cribati]

I mean even Evas had the pilot in the back of the neck

Fans of a certain anime will find this hilarious.

Anyweay, this movie is definitely on my "to see" list because hey, sometimes I like big, stupid movies, and this definitely promises to be such. Now I just need $11 and a date.

[Karoht]

Now I just need $11 and a date.
Fixed that for you.
Megas XLR taught us one very important thing.
In the opening credits no less.
"I. Like. Giant Robots.
You. Like. Giant Robots.
Chicks. Dig. Giant Robots.
We. Love. Giant Robots!"

[GloatingSwine]

PS-I totally forgot to mention how awesome Idris Elba's acting job was. Yeah, "cancelling the apolcalypse" was a bit cheesey, but everything else from him was absolutely solid gold. Platinum even.

It really doesn't matter what cheese you ask Idris Elba to say, he'll do it brilliantly.

He does have more screen presence in the film than all of the giant robits and monsters.

[Hopeless]

So how about listing potential ideas for sequels?

1) The rift reopens and an alien escape craft comes through with survivors' aboard begging for humanities help as they have defeated the enemy from the first movie but many other worlds are in peril from the Kaiju.

2) Humanity experiments with Kaiju of their own as the portak reopens as the enemy have Kaiju cyborgs intended to outmatch the foe that destroyed their first invasion portal, now a young boy and his remarkable talent to empathise with the Earth born Kaiju are all that stands between a world with no remaining Jaegers' and a new menace...

3) Humanity reopen the portal and discover it leads to several other worlds leading to encountering new enemies as well as potential new home for humanity perhaps ending the second with the aliens sending a warfleet to earth to annihilate the only race they couldn't defeat with their bioweapons?

Care to add your own?

[GloatingSwine]

On Mako: I thought the development was fine. She worked through her issues, and didn't have to look incompetent in direct combat to do so. I'm sick of people doing the "woman is weak in combat until she overcomes her feels" plot. It's been used way too much, often quite to the detriment of story and character (I'm looking at you Other M).


Just coming back to this, the problem is that Mako works through her issues off screen in between times where it would have been dramatic and effective to show it, and it is never referenced again.

She goes from completely incapable to completely competent in the course of one breakfast conversation. In a way she doesn't overcome her issues, they're just forgotten and never mentioned again.

And doing that misses a really good way to engage and audience with the action, fighting the monster within in order to defeat the one without. Something which would have been easy to do in the context of the film as presented, all it would need is for Gipsy Danger to falter momentarily and then the two pilots support each other (because they're both facing their pasts) and punch the monster at the critical moment.

[Deathkeeper]

Just coming back to this, the problem is that Mako works through her issues off screen in between times where it would have been dramatic and effective to show it, and it is never referenced again.

She goes from completely incapable to completely competent in the course of one breakfast conversation. In a way she doesn't overcome her issues, they're just forgotten and never mentioned again.

And doing that misses a really good way to engage and audience with the action, fighting the monster within in order to defeat the one without. Something which would have been easy to do in the context of the film as presented, all it would need is for Gipsy Danger to falter momentarily and then the two pilots support each other (because they're both facing their pasts) and punch the monster at the critical moment.

I wouldn't say completely incapable- they made it clear that it went pretty well before she freaked out.
But yeah, I do agree that a twenty-second clip could have made that subplot make a lot more sense.

[Karoht]

So how about listing potential ideas for sequels?
Care to add your own?See my two spoiler tagged posts.



Just coming back to this, the problem is that Mako works through her issues off screen in between times where it would have been dramatic and effective to show it, and it is never referenced again.I agree that at least acknowledging it, even if it was just in the form of an encouraging word from Raleigh when they got back into Gypsy ("Don't worry, I'm right here, we'll just take this ride a bit slower okay?" or somesuch, use one's imagination) would have been better.


She goes from completely incapable to completely competent in the course of one breakfast conversation. In a way she doesn't overcome her issues, they're just forgotten and never mentioned again.I kind of got something different from this. Recall that Raleigh lost control first. His talking to her was all about him working through his baggage. With him finally acknowledging his problem, it didn't come up again, ergo it didn't knock her out of alignment either. But I still agree, they paid very little attention to the problem.


And doing that misses a really good way to engage and audience with the action, fighting the monster within in order to defeat the one without. Something which would have been easy to do in the context of the film as presented, all it would need is for Gipsy Danger to falter momentarily and then the two pilots support each other (because they're both facing their pasts) and punch the monster at the critical moment.100% Agreed. It didn't need much, they didn't even need to punch the point home to this degree, but it did need at least something. This is about the only thing I disliked about the film. The whole 'synch rate' thing could have been an interesting plot point to explore a bit more.
And IMO, she needed to be WAY more vocal than she was in the cockpit. She seemed to just follow his lead a bit too much. She was a strong willed character, a bit more of that strong will in combat would have really drove that home.

[BRC]

Just coming back to this, the problem is that Mako works through her issues off screen in between times where it would have been dramatic and effective to show it, and it is never referenced again.

She goes from completely incapable to completely competent in the course of one breakfast conversation. In a way she doesn't overcome her issues, they're just forgotten and never mentioned again.

And doing that misses a really good way to engage and audience with the action, fighting the monster within in order to defeat the one without. Something which would have been easy to do in the context of the film as presented, all it would need is for Gipsy Danger to falter momentarily and then the two pilots support each other (because they're both facing their pasts) and punch the monster at the critical moment.

Well, there is kind of a way that this works, though you have to do some logical gymnastics.

Ameridude says "I should have warned you, first drifts are rough", which makes sense. Any new experience is going to be tricky. With that in mind, one could argue that her going out of synch was because she was caught off-guard by her first time Drifting and that later on (when she was more prepared) she was able to do fine. In which case it's not that she magically got over her issues off-screen, it's that she was already as in-control as any other Jaeger pilot, and just got caught off-guard her first time piloting one for real.

It's a solid theory, and it makes sense, but it dosn't quite work with the other character's reactions. Ameridude shrugs it off by saying "First drifts are rough", but everybody else acts like she totally failed. Also, if First Drifts are so bad, why did they plug the head into the rest of the Jaeger that first time out. Seems like an uneccessary risk.


Also, the whole "Synch Rate" thing was an underexplored concept.

It makes sense as it's presented, you use pilots who are already mentally in-tune in order to make the connection stronger. A pair of brothers, a husband-wife team, a father and son. People who share a lot of memories, which makes the whole "being inside the other person's head" thing a lot easier and more comfortable for everybody involved.

However, Ameridude and Mako are apparently crazy in-synch despite having never met each other before, somthing you can apparently tell by some frantic stick-fighting (which dosn't make much sense since the Jaegers don't use sticks anyway. Boxing would have been better). Despite the fact that he's Drifting with a complete stranger (whereas the standard drift-partnership seems be a very close connection), their performance dosn't suffer outside of that first time going "Out of Synch", which is portrayed as a failure of mental discipline, not as a result of their not knowing each other.

Meanwhile, Marshal Moustache and Australia Jr are apparently able to Synch up somehow, because Marshal Moustache knows that Australia Jr. is an ******* with daddy issues.

I understand why they did that for the plot, the idea of pilot synchronization is a fascinating concept that could have been mined a lot more than it was. Admittedly, it was already a very long movie. Maybe have fewer scenes of Mako staring at shirtless Ameridude, and more scenes demonstrating how their ability as pilots changes as they come to understand each other better.

[Tiki Snakes]

Well, there is kind of a way that this works, though you have to do some logical gymnastics.

Ameridude says "I should have warned you, first drifts are rough", which makes sense. Any new experience is going to be tricky. With that in mind, one could argue that her going out of synch was because she was caught off-guard by her first time Drifting and that later on (when she was more prepared) she was able to do fine. In which case it's not that she magically got over her issues off-screen, it's that she was already as in-control as any other Jaeger pilot, and just got caught off-guard her first time piloting one for real.

It's a solid theory, and it makes sense, but it dosn't quite work with the other character's reactions. Ameridude shrugs it off by saying "First drifts are rough", but everybody else acts like she totally failed. Also, if First Drifts are so bad, why did they plug the head into the rest of the Jaeger that first time out. Seems like an uneccessary risk.

First drifts are tough. Drifting with someone for the first time when they have a huge chunk of a dead persons mind left permanently merged with their own? Rougher. All seemed pretty clear from context, personally speaking.

[Bhu]

If there are games I will likely play them.
If there are graphic novels I WILL buy them.
[/SPOILER]

Your current options are Heroclix figures, an art book, and this

http://www.amazon.com/Pacific-Rim-Tales-Legendary-Comics/dp/0785153942


I'm surprised more people didn't scream Go Nagai when they saw the techie with the massive sideburns. Weirdly enough 90% of the audience when I went to see this were all women, only one of whom had a kid.

[BRC]

First drifts are tough. Drifting with someone for the first time when they have a huge chunk of a dead persons mind left permanently merged with their own? Rougher. All seemed pretty clear from context, personally speaking.

It does seem clear, so clear in fact that other character's reactions are a little strange. The other characters should have been reacting like "Okay, that didn't go very well, but it was your first drift, so we'll fix everything up until you're ready to try again".

Instead everybody acts like their performance during the First Drift means that everything is ruined and neither of them should be allowed in a Jaeger ever again. The other character's takeaway seems to be that Marshal Moustache was right to keep Mako out of the candidate pool.

[Deathkeeper]

Your current options are Heroclix figures, an art book, and this

http://www.amazon.com/Pacific-Rim-Tales-Legendary-Comics/dp/0785153942


I'm surprised more people didn't scream Go Nagai when they saw the techie with the massive sideburns. Weirdly enough 90% of the audience when I went to see this were all women, only one of whom had a kid.

There are also Neca 7" figures with a 18" Gypsy coming in August. They look very nice, actually.

[warty goblin]

I understand why they did that for the plot, the idea of pilot synchronization is a fascinating concept that could have been mined a lot more than it was.
Yeah. From the trailers I was kinda hoping for some sort of Joe Haldeman stuff with the neurally linked warmachine pilots. Really though, ended up feeling like a gimmick.

[Tiki Snakes]

It does seem clear, so clear in fact that other character's reactions are a little strange. The other characters should have been reacting like "Okay, that didn't go very well, but it was your first drift, so we'll fix everything up until you're ready to try again".

Instead everybody acts like their performance during the First Drift means that everything is ruined and neither of them should be allowed in a Jaeger ever again. The other character's takeaway seems to be that Marshal Moustache was right to keep Mako out of the candidate pool.

The others are unaware of what's actually going on. Marshal understands, but our protagonist is probably right when he calls the marshal out as simply trying to protect her.

After all, the Marshal is possibly the only other pilot ever to have gone through what whatsisface went through.

[BRC]

The others are unaware of what's actually going on. Marshal understands, but our protagonist is probably right when he calls the marshal out as simply trying to protect her.

After all, the Marshal is possibly the only other pilot ever to have gone through what whatsisface went through.
All the pilots would have gone through a First Drift. In fact, most of them would have gone through a first drift where both pilots were new and therefore likely to "Chase the Rabbit"

Yeah. From the trailers I was kinda hoping for some sort of Joe Haldeman stuff with the neurally linked warmachine pilots. Really though, ended up feeling like a gimmick.
It's just that they never really showed us a pilot team that was "out of synch" as it were (Not be confused with "Chasing the Rabbit", which they literally called being Out of Synch). We were told that it was important, but since every team had it (Whether it made sense for them to be connected or not), it wasn't really explored.

[warty goblin]

It's just that they never really showed us a pilot team that was "out of synch" as it were (Not be confused with "Chasing the Rabbit", which they literally called being Out of Synch). We were told that it was important, but since every team had it (Whether it made sense for them to be connected or not), it wasn't really explored.
I was kinda thinking more as a metaphor for the primary group. Which it was, but in a sort of inert, basically unexplored way.

[Tiki Snakes]

All the pilots would have gone through a First Drift. In fact, most of them would have gone through a first drift where both pilots were new and therefore likely to "Chase the Rabbit"

It's just that they never really showed us a pilot team that was "out of synch" as it were (Not be confused with "Chasing the Rabbit", which they literally called being Out of Synch). We were told that it was important, but since every team had it (Whether it made sense for them to be connected or not), it wasn't really explored.

But there's a good chance that no-one else has ever drifted with someone who was linked to their partner when their partner died before, given the way pilot teams usually work and the fact that only two people ever survived piloting solo.

[Bhu]

http://io9.com/pacific-rims-hilarious-fourth-string-jaegers-reveale-788692826

Too funny mot to link to, but beware some nsfw stuff in the comments.

[Mikeavelli]

Gipsy Danger is blatantly inspired by Mazinger Z.


Objection! Giant Robo is the clear inspiration here!

[turkishproverb]

Objection! Giant Robo is the clear inspiration here!

Gigantor*'s defense counsel would also like to raise comment!

*For legal reasons, Mr. Tetsujin has chosen to use this name in certain english markets. Thank you.



Seriously though, Mazinger Z was huge in mexico and spain, so I think it's likely certain homages were deliberate there.

[Jayngfet]

Objection! Giant Robo is the clear inspiration here!

Gipsy is obviously inspired by a wide range of different mecha, so trying to pin it on any one thing was kinda stupid on my part. It's got Giant Robo's color scheme and sense of weight, Mazinger's most often used moveset(though it lacks like half the total moveset), a Gunbuster esque control scheme, and a docking sequence that's got a lot in common with Kotetsu Jeeg.

Mazinger is just the one that came to mind most quickly simply because of the fact that it's the obvious inspiration for it's moveset.



Also, I'm going to repeat this since people seem to be working off a faulty assumption:

So far, this movie isn't failing. The 38 million was from the weekend excluding sunday, and only in the USA. It's made more than half it's money internationally, and the real revenue number is already upwards of 90 million.

Again, the movie hasn't opened in China, Japan, Brazil, and France, which all love the anime this thing is based on and it's guaranteed to be a hit there.

The various news agencies are pretty much lying to you by saying it's coming in third. The first place movie has a week of a lead on the other two(Despicable Me 2), and the second(Grown Ups 2) has made almost nothing internationally and it's total revenue is sitting at less than half of Pacific Rim. By giving a slanted timeframe and using less than half the money the movie has made, they're pretty much trying their hardest to make this movie look like a flop long before the final numbers will be coming in. We won't know the final numbers until the movie finishes in Greece in September and the biggest markets don't even get this until next month, so between that and this just being opening weekend, we can expect this to at least make it's production budget back.

[Corvus]

http://io9.com/pacific-rims-hilarious-fourth-string-jaegers-reveale-788692826

Too funny mot to link to, but beware some nsfw stuff in the comments.

A design your own Jaeger site? How cool.

Welcome Resplendent Fury, based out of Sydney Shatterdome, piloted by the brother and sister team of Raven and Caleb Stirling. Now to fanfic their epic encounter with the Kaiju Razorsmile.

Making names for the setting is just too much fun.

[Scowling Dragon]

Also I just quickly wanted too say:

The story doesn't always matter. Its true.

Some films rather have style, or interesting visuals or a mix of both as the focus.

You know what films have some of the LEAST amounts of plot?

Arthouse films. There its mainly a focus on cinematography and weirdness.

I haven't seen the movie yet, but a focus on some good action, and not insufferable characters is fine.

Stuff like Transformers gets hate because its CRAP at EVERYTHING. The characters aren't just bland but annoying *BLEEPS* of *BLOOP*.

The Robot designs are AWFUL and are just messes of metal banging together.

The action is blurry and causes headaches.

And the story gains notoriety because its just another bad part of the movie.

If the story was good, people would give the movie more slack. However is the storm of bad that comes together for the ultimate insult.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Also, I'm going to repeat this since people seem to be working off a faulty assumption:

So far, this movie isn't failing. The 38 million was from the weekend excluding sunday, and only in the USA. It's made more than half it's money internationally, and the real revenue number is already upwards of 90 million.

Again, the movie hasn't opened in China, Japan, Brazil, and France, which all love the anime this thing is based on and it's guaranteed to be a hit there.

Yeah look man that's just... not... how the industry judges these things.

Don't believe me look at Superman Returns being considered a disappointment and it going into hiatus for years. Or the most recent widely reported bomb that is John Carter.

A big part of that is that box office gross is not even close to actual final studio profits between the budget, the unreported marketing, anyone entitled to a percentage figure and the unreported marketing. I presume worldwide adds a whole extra layer of middle men to carve into that too, on top of everyone taking an inch of flesh from the gross here.

And of course the studios need to make millions extra to write off the inevitable failures that will occur, or they won't remain in business. Disney has to eat up Lone Ranger somewhere, and this isn't the first time in recent memory. Of course Marvel will win it back for the corporate whole, but maybe not the Disney movie brand itself which keeps failing to find the next Pirate movie.


The various news agencies are pretty much lying to you by saying it's coming in third. The first place movie has a week of a lead on the other two(Despicable Me 2), and the second(Grown Ups 2) has made almost nothing internationally and it's total revenue is sitting at less than half of Pacific Rim.

Despicable Me 2 won the weekend with a 47.4% (http://boxofficemojo.com/weekend/chart/) decline in ticket sales. A drop that is pretty normal actually, sales only go down from the top. It also has covered its quite modest budget already and has raked in 400 mil worldwide.

Grown Ups 2 in addition to being a comedy thus not subject to the same expectations is half way to its budget. It should cover it eventually from domestic while Pacific Rim will have to work for its half-point in domestic. I think you might have a point *only* because of the foreign box office... but more insult then injury here, lots of movies loose to family films loosing to Adam Sandler is a bit much for a mega-budget film.


By giving a slanted timeframe and using less than half the money the movie has made, they're pretty much trying their hardest to make this movie look like a flop long before the final numbers will be coming in.

Standard reporting there, this movie is not special somehow. And I can find you better percentages ratios for overseas returns even if you'd like.

And rightly or wrongly the industry clearly judges by domestic box office, and opening weekend there first.

And studio suits will key off the industry. Presumably because they actually get to see inside the Hollywood Accounting (which could teach Wall Street, DC, and the Mafia tricks) to what the real costs and pay out is.

[Jayngfet]

Yeah look man that's just... not... how the industry judges these things.

Don't believe me look at Superman Returns being considered a disappointment and it going into hiatus for years. Or the most recent widely reported bomb that is John Carter.



Actually I believe that there were plans for a sequel to returns. Just like there were plans for more Batman movies before Begins came out. Movies without breakout numbers get sequels all the time and the DC/WB partnership has been notoriously troubled for years now.

Likewise John Carter actually did way worse initially, and it's primary market had to be domestic considering that the Barsoom novels were American novels popular mostly in America to begin with.




A big part of that is that box office gross is not even close to actual final studio profits between the budget, the unreported marketing, anyone entitled to a percentage figure and the unreported marketing. I presume worldwide adds a whole extra layer of middle men to carve into that too, on top of everyone taking an inch of flesh from the gross here.


Obviously there's marketing and theater cuts to account for, but even shaving those off those off it could go either way. That's why I'm saying "it' not failing" as opposed to "it's succeeding". I don't think it'll be a huge failure, but I don't think it'll pull record breaking numbers either. From my viewpoint I think Pacific Rim actually has a far smaller marketing budget than John Carter, as well as a notably smaller budget, so I don't think Legendary will be losing the same amount(over a hundred million) if it pulls the same numbers as John Carter.



And of course the studios need to make millions extra to write off the inevitable failures that will occur, or they won't remain in business. Disney has to eat up Lone Ranger somewhere, and this isn't the first time in recent memory. Of course Marvel will win it back for the corporate whole, but maybe not the Disney movie brand itself which keeps failing to find the next Pirate movie.
[QUOTE]

You don't need to convince me about that. A company struggling along can almost go under from a notable flop. However considering how the Batman/Superman movies have done I doubt Pacific Rim needs to eat up the damage done by say, Green Lantern. In any case Legendary is footing most of the bill and their track record is so solid there isn't much in the way of current failures to write off, since most of their films have been solidly successful as of late, both enough to be successes in their own right and with enough collective profit to probably give them a slight buffer for failure at the company level.


[QUOTE]
Despicable Me 2 won the weekend with a 47.4% (http://boxofficemojo.com/weekend/chart/) decline in ticket sales. A drop that is pretty normal actually, sales only go down from the top. It also has covered its quite modest budget already and has raked in 400 mil worldwide.

Grown Ups 2 in addition to being a comedy thus not subject to the same expectations is half way to its budget. It should cover it eventually from domestic while Pacific Rim will have to work for its half-point in domestic. I think you might have a point *only* because of the foreign box office... but more insult then injury here, lots of movies loose to family films loosing to Adam Sandler is a bit much for a mega-budget film.


Those are only domestic numbers. Again, Pacific Rim's global is better than Grown ups 2, and while Despicable Me 2 looks to have beat it, it's not by a huge margin.

That's not enough for a number one, but it's enough for a second place and enough to put the reports of "GROWN UPS TWO BEATS PACIFIC RIM" to rest.




Standard reporting there, this movie is not special somehow. And I can find you better percentages ratios for overseas returns even if you'd like.

And rightly or wrongly the industry clearly judges by domestic box office, and opening weekend there first.


The problem is that the movies plan was pretty much never to do well domestically. This thing has "INTERNATIONAL FIRST" written all over it.

The problem is that judging by domestic was viable for decades, but it really isn't anymore. Because again, even without a good deal of it's main countries getting it yet the bulk of box office money is coming from overseas. This is a relatively new phenomenon that they still need to catch up to, as opposed to giving Pacific Rim special treatment.



And studio suits will key off the industry. Presumably because they actually get to see inside the Hollywood Accounting (which could teach Wall Street, DC, and the Mafia tricks) to what the real costs and pay out is.

We DON'T get to see those costs though. I don't doubt they add a whole lot to the actual cost and this is going to be close even if it gives them payout, but all things considered if they were planning things with this, then they may just give it the go ahead anyway provided it isn't a total flop. I've heard a few stories from people in this or that industry about the byzantine nightmare the decision system can be and you will sometimes get sequels spat out regardless of logic.

If Pacific Rim gets a sequel, I certainly don't expect it to be as big unless the final numbers shatter everybodies expectations. It'll definitely have a way smaller budget.

I'm not gonna lie an say I expect this to be a revolutionary new thing. Heck, given it's huge budget just breaking even could be a huge ordeal that I'm not even certain of despite loving this movie. It's not a perfect movie despite all my gushing, considering it's pacing and characterization.

What I AM going to say is this: The bulk of complaints I've actually SEEN are rather shallow if not blatantly wrong. It's not an Evangelion ripoff(as it draws from other examples of the genre entirely). It's not a flop just yet yet(It hasn't opened in most of the markets it'll do best in). It isn't original, but that's not bad(that's why it's good, it's taking it's favorite elements from stuff most of it's audience hasn't seen or hasn't seen in years and showing them how cool they can be).

As well, I'm not going to keep complaining about the industry. Right now, I'm going to address you directly:

You are the one saying the box office agrees with you that it's bad using slanted numbers. You are the one saying it's an Evangelion ripoff, when you later admit to not seeing or even being aware of the programs that inspired Eva and set the stage for it(and this movie). You are the one complaining about the characters being intended to be something they weren't. The bulk of your complaints, as stated by you, are wrong. You can say the market judges it differently, and I won't fight you that that's how it's done. However, the specific things you've said and linked, and how you've said them, are things I am contesting.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Death of the Author doesn't work here, by virtue of the obvious differences between modern cinema and older novels. Older novels were usually self contained and had only text, so you could read it all at once.
I'd argue that they weren't so cut-and-dried as that; Faulkner's novels feature interwoven narratives and recurring characters; Shakespeare's Henry V obviously follows his Henry IV, with Henry V appearing in both and Falstaff appears inThe Merry Wives of Windsor in addition to Henry IV; and so on. Readers can do a close reading and analysis of a particular work within a larger frame, and critics have done this for quite some time. Of course, those more familiar with the whole of a work or an author's canon may argue against an interpretation that is contradicted in a related work — arguing Henry V is a brash, arrogant buffoon may make sense from his unflattering portrayal in the Henry IV plays, but the argument seems less solid when his character in Henry V is considered. Now, one could make the argument that Henry V is a vapid scapegrace specifically in the Henry IV plays, and in that case, his maturation in his own play would no longer be relevant to the argument.



Pacific Rim already has a franchise planned with Del Toro being directly involved and much of it was planned out long before day one. You can't just sit there and read it and get the statement, because the whole thing is packed with quickly paced scenes, each packed with individual details you don't really have time to absorb unless you see it several times(I've missed plenty even just seeing it twice), and the teams intention WILL drive future productions, which Del Toro has said he'll be working with closely.
I'd argue that you can't always just "sit there and read it and get the statement" with novels any more than with films, and analysis of both benefits immensely from close reading. As you say, you've missed plenty of stuff seeing it twice; who's to say one of the things you've missed isn't an romantic subtext — intentional or otherwise — between the leads?


Their being a couple or not needs to be established now, because it'll affect the planned sequel, intended additional games and comics, and the whole thing at every level. Legendary is essentially still making Pacific Rim in the form of additional planned installments. If Pacific Rim catches on, these details can't really be considered up for interpretation.
I don't think anyone has claimed that the characters going steady and exchanged promise rings offscreen; the issue is if they're attracted to one another, right? If a text within the franchise were to outright confirm or deny an attraction then, sure, that would be one thing, but until that happens, it's perfectly justifiable for a viewer to interpret whether they are attracted to another based on the information available to the viewer.


Not to mention my own personal distaste regarding Death of the Author, which I'll freely admit to. The entire concept rubs me the wrong way since it basically means you can walk up to a guy who wrote 'the sky is blue' and tell him he REALLY meant everything was gloomy and dour even if the chapter or scene was comedic and upbeat. A writer can make unintended things happen when producing something, but this concept has been taken so far it's basically become a parody of itself within the Liberal Arts community specifically and with fandoms in general as well.

That's, uh, not at all what it basically means. The point of Death of the Author is that literary critics ought to analyze the text itself rather than basing their analyses on the author's politics, biography, &c. If the text says the sky is blue and there is no basis for assuming it's not, such as an unreliable narrator, then, no, Death of the Author does not support the interpretation that it's gloomy and dour. In other words, you could only walk up to a guy who wrote "the sky is blue" and tell him the weather in the scene was actually gloomy and dour if you could back up that interpretation with close readings of the text itself.
Also, Death of the Author has nothing to do with telling the author what he meant. In fact, not doing that is part of the point.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Actually I believe that there were plans for a sequel to returns. Just like there were plans for more Batman movies before Begins came out. Movies without breakout numbers get sequels all the time and the DC/WB partnership has been notoriously troubled for years now.

Course there were plans it managed to get a good budget, noted director, and some net buzz anticipation. If you wanted to get the sequel out by 2015 you'd best start work now to get it all greenlit so you can maybe start work but the time the movie closes in theater. That's if it was a success, and enough of one to get the suits to sign off on it.

Plans aren't meaningful until production starts.


Likewise John Carter actually did way worse initially, and it's primary market had to be domestic considering that the Barsoom novels were American novels popular mostly in America to begin with.


Actually John Carter (http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=johncarterofmars.htm) did only 7 mil worse on its opening, 30 mil to Pacific Rims 37 mil. Now it went on to total only 73 mil in 16 weeks of release in the states. In other words it made 41% of its total domestic gross in opening.

Now given your comments I'm sure if you followed the link you are going about how it made 75% of its money overseas. Bringing it up to 282 million total.

Note however that its budget was 250 million. Now tack on at least 50 million to that "production budget" is only a fraction of the ridiculous hundreds of millions numbers (http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/5-recent-box-office-bombs-and-why-they-failed.html/?a=viewall) I've seen tossed around for its marketing costs. I can find more if I dig but all of them eat up that measely 30 mil without breaking a sweat. I don't know where they spent it.

In Hollywood even massive amounts of money still equal net failure. John Carter is a pretty extreme case... but seriously you can assume marketing was enough to make another movie.

Oh and dig into the foreign market (http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intl&id=johncarterofmars.htm) numbers. The best total run is Russia at 33 mil. That's all of Russia, in all of its run, and it barely beats the American opening weekend. The domestic market is still the 800 pound gorilla of movie audiences, much like the rest of the American economy.


Obviously there's marketing and theater cuts to account for, but even shaving those off those off it could go either way. That's why I'm saying "it' not failing" as opposed to "it's succeeding". I don't think it'll be a huge failure, but I don't think it'll pull record breaking numbers either. From my viewpoint I think Pacific Rim actually has a far smaller marketing budget than John Carter, as well as a notably smaller budget, so I don't think Legendary will be losing the same amount(over a hundred million) if it pulls the same numbers as John Carter.

No you see its already failed in the eyes of Hollywood.

Oh Pacific Rim may scrape up its mere budget if its 58.7% (http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=pacificrim.htm) foreign ratio changes and it really tears things up overseas. Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christopher-rosen/pacific-rim-box-office_b_3595944.html) guesses 200-250 mil. Thats all not bad, but 190 mil is already gone. And 60 mil in marketing... totally not unthinkable. And thats not including the lies, the carvings of the slices, and all the rest.

Not as bad as John Carter... but yeah not profitable. And not profitable means forget a sequel..

[Jayngfet]

I'm posting way too much and too long, but VeisuItaThjyys's post is something I want to reply to. I'm spoilering it so everyone doesn't have to slog through a huge thing again.


I'd argue that they weren't so cut-and-dried as that; Faulkner's novels feature interwoven narratives and recurring characters; Shakespeare's Henry V obviously follows his Henry IV, with Henry V appearing in both and Falstaff appears inThe Merry Wives of Windsor in addition to Henry IV; and so on. Readers can do a close reading and analysis of a particular work within a larger frame, and critics have done this for quite some time. Of course, those more familiar with the whole of a work or an author's canon may argue against an interpretation that is contradicted in a related work — arguing Henry V is a brash, arrogant buffoon may make sense from his unflattering portrayal in the Henry IV plays, but the argument seems less solid when his character in Henry V is considered. Now, one could make the argument that Henry V is a vapid scapegrace specifically in the Henry IV plays, and in that case, his maturation in his own play would no longer be relevant to the argument.


I'll retract that, since the divide on a novel series vs other things in this specific respect isn't large enough to contest after a bit of thought.




I'd argue that you can't always just "sit there and read it and get the statement" with novels any more than with films, and analysis of both benefits immensely from close reading. As you say, you've missed plenty of stuff seeing it twice; who's to say one of the things you've missed isn't an romantic subtext — intentional or otherwise — between the leads?


Yes, but you can read and re-read a novel or work of text several times over at you leisure. With a movie, once a line is done you can't go back and check again unless it's on DVD, and even that will mess with the pacing. Once you take into account all the differences between text and many other kinds of recording things get a bit muddier. You have to analyze every medium differently, so what works for one thing may not work for another.

I'll say I could have missed the subtext. I'm not infallible and I hope I never gave off the image that I thought I was. However what I WILL say for that specific example was that I thought that I picked up a different idea of what was going on based on a number of scenes and expressions. That is to say, given how Mako observes Ralleigh with his shirt off(showing scars, though also muscle), and how she observes him interact with other characters(particularly his scene with Tendo), the vibe being given off isn't one of romance so much as a newcomer looking at a veteran. How much actual physical attraction IS there is up for debate.



I don't think anyone has claimed that the characters going steady and exchanged promise rings offscreen; the issue is if they're attracted to one another, right? If a text within the franchise were to outright confirm or deny an attraction then, sure, that would be one thing, but until that happens, it's perfectly justifiable for a viewer to interpret whether they are attracted to another based on the information available to the viewer.


The problem was never them having an attraction. The problem was the assertion that they had a romance arc and were involved in that specific capacity, somewhere between their meeting and the films end. If it was just them having an attraction as the statement I'd be fine with it. But the original assertion was that they were a stereotypical action movie couple running off romance tropes, given MLai's specific posts within this thread.




That's, uh, not at all what it basically means. The point of Death of the Author is that literary critics ought to analyze the text itself rather than basing their analyses on the author's politics, biography, &c. If the text says the sky is blue and there is no basis for assuming it's not, such as an unreliable narrator, then, no, Death of the Author does not support the interpretation that it's gloomy and dour. In other words, you could only walk up to a guy who wrote "the sky is blue" and tell him the weather in the scene was actually gloomy and dour if you could back up that interpretation with close readings of the text itself.
Also, Death of the Author has nothing to do with telling the author what he meant. In fact, not doing that is part of the point.

I think the problem is partially Death of the Author itself, in that it ignores whole dimensions when it comes to actually analyzing something. However, a large part comes from the way it gets so liberally thrown around in internet arguments, as well as in real life by amateur analysts who don't fully understand it. I'm more than a little jumpy regarding it simply because of the way it's often used, as well as the fact that it personally runs counter to everything I've been taught in regards to analysis.

Even in this thread I don't see it being used as well as it could, and given the specific choices the film makes at more than a few points I'd say it's not something it's best to apply it to: The where and how of this movie's production are frequent discussion points by both supporters and detractors. The background of the cast and crew's choices, execution, and decisions are an entire dimension that can't be ignored given how often viewers and reviewers have said certain things.

Given that we're straying off topic, if you want to keep going we should take this to PM's. The concept of Death of the Author is an interesting one so I'm not going to just shut it down, but I'm making way too many posts in this thread and they're becoming way too long.

EDIT: I'll reply to Soras here too, again spoilered.


Course there were plans it managed to get a good budget, noted director, and some net buzz anticipation. If you wanted to get the sequel out by 2015 you'd best start work now to get it all greenlit so you can maybe start work but the time the movie closes in theater. That's if it was a success, and enough of one to get the suits to sign off on it.

Plans aren't meaningful until production starts.


No, I mean sequels to Superman Returns were planned. Names were thrown around and people were contacted but things never came together. A lot of DC Hero stuff is like that. There are suits and scripts and people who worked on various concepts and tried to get various movies for this or that thing planned. But a lot of them plain fall through or get cancelled to go in another direction. A lot of projects plain fall through even if they're in the early stages of production.






Actually John Carter (http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=johncarterofmars.htm) did only 7 mil worse on its opening, 30 mil to Pacific Rims 37 mil. Now it went on to total only 73 mil in 16 weeks of release in the states. In other words it made 41% of its total domestic gross in opening.

Now given your comments I'm sure if you followed the link you are going about how it made 75% of its money overseas. Bringing it up to 282 million total.

Note however that its budget was 250 million. Now tack on at least 50 million to that "production budget" is only a fraction of the ridiculous hundreds of millions numbers (http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/5-recent-box-office-bombs-and-why-they-failed.html/?a=viewall) I've seen tossed around for its marketing costs. I can find more if I dig but all of them eat up that measely 30 mil without breaking a sweat. I don't know where they spent it.



Yes, but you're forgetting the essential difference between Pacific Rim and John Carter: John Carter is based on a series of books largely popular in America, do it's safe to assume it's primary market was still domestic. Pacific Rim is based on Japanese tv series that were popular in Japan, France, and Brazil more than America, and these markets haven't opened yet. They'll contribute way more to Pacific Rim than they did John Carter.

There's also the differences in marketing and production. Pacific Rim cost about 20% less on production, which is what we can see, and made just under. 20% more on opening weekend. I can't see Marketing numbers but even that is a bit more promising.

I've ALSO heard a bunch of ridiculous bull thrown around regarding John Carter's huge marketing budget. However from what I've seen Pacific Rim was a bit less liberal, not spending that much until it's last two weeks before opening to avoid Man of Steel and not having nearly as many TV commercials, if memory serves. Pacific Rim's markting budget is something I'm confident isn't quite as big as John Carter.



In Hollywood even massive amounts of money still equal net failure. John Carter is a pretty extreme case... but seriously you can assume marketing was enough to make another movie.

Oh and dig into the foreign market (http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intl&id=johncarterofmars.htm) numbers. The best total run is Russia at 33 mil. That's all of Russia, in all of its run, and it barely beats the American opening weekend. The domestic market is still the 800 pound gorilla of movie audiences, much like the rest of the American economy.


Yes, but again, there's that essential difference between the two. If in a couple of days there's no real uptick once more countries get it, then I'll begin to consider this a failure. However, Pacific Rim's core market still stands as essentially being half done.



No you see its already failed in the eyes of Hollywood.

Oh Pacific Rim may scrape up its mere budget if its 58.7% (http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=pacificrim.htm) foreign ratio changes and it really tears things up overseas. Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christopher-rosen/pacific-rim-box-office_b_3595944.html) guesses 200-250 mil. Thats all not bad, but 190 mil is already gone. And 60 mil in marketing... totally not unthinkable. And thats not including the lies, the carvings of the slices, and all the rest.


Again, it's foreign ration is going to go off like a shot in the next month or so. Hollywood may call this one a failure but it's far from over and they've been wrong on this movie before, since it's already beat the lowball estimates.

The American market may not give a huge amount more but it's timing an content means the Japanese market will probably throw down a rather huge amount of money to it, in addition to the Brazillian market is huge and not to be underestimated since it's been viewing sentai and mecha anime since the 80's favorably. France has a lower population but since Mazinger series and Super Sentai were popular back in the day I'm expecting relatively good numbers from it.




Not as bad as John Carter... but yeah not profitable. And not profitable means forget a sequel..

I'm not expecting it to make anybody rich. However it's not unheard of for some crazy executive to take a liking to a project and push a sequel out so long as it doesn't look like a total disaster. Considering the split between universal/legendary I'm not holding my breath though and that's about as likely as Kaiju actually showing up to trash Tokyo.

I'm ok with not getting a sequel honestly, all this really is is me not liking the assertions that this movie is going to fail before it's ever been given a chance. Which is something that's been going on before it was even out.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm unsure what to make of Pacific Rim. I wanna go see it because I've read that it's good, and I'm a Del Toro fan. My brother, on the other hand, is also a Del Toro fan and he thinks it was a horrible idea for Del Toro to do a sci-fi film about kaiju and big stompy robots. His opinion on the movie is that this genre is not one Del Toro is suited for (he loved Pan's Labyrinth and Devil's Backbone, but doesn't really have an opinion about the Hellboy movies), and that "If I wanted to watch Evangelion, I'd just watch Evangelion," that the movie is just a rehashing of old plots and tropes and that it lacks the soul that he'd seen not just in Del Toro's earlier films, but in pretty much the only mecha show he's ever actually watched.

I myself will probably see the movie myself, because I tend to take my brother's opinions with a grain of salt anyway as he's kind of a snob and he views Irish and Celtic folk music traditions as superior to any genre of music that came after the 1930's, but if my friends' reactions are any indication, this is an incredibly polarizing film, some praising it as a bold and successful attempt to add more depth and seriousness to a normally somewhat cheesy genre, or that it's a vaguely horrible love story disguised as a cliched movie where robots fight off aliens.

[Deathkeeper]

I'm unsure what to make of Pacific Rim. I wanna go see it because I've read that it's good, and I'm a Del Toro fan. My brother, on the other hand, is also a Del Toro fan and he thinks it was a horrible idea for Del Toro to do a sci-fi film about kaiju and big stompy robots. His opinion on the movie is that this genre is not one Del Toro is suited for (he loved Pan's Labyrinth and Devil's Backbone, but doesn't really have an opinion about the Hellboy movies), and that "If I wanted to watch Evangelion, I'd just watch Evangelion," that the movie is just a rehashing of old plots and tropes and that it lacks the soul that he'd seen not just in Del Toro's earlier films, but in pretty much the only mecha show he's ever actually watched.

I myself will probably see the movie myself, because I tend to take my brother's opinions with a grain of salt anyway as he's kind of a snob and he views Irish and Celtic folk music traditions as superior to any genre of music that came after the 1930's, but if my friends' reactions are any indication, this is an incredibly polarizing film, some praising it as a bold and successful attempt to add more depth and seriousness to a normally somewhat cheesy genre, or that it's a vaguely horrible love story disguised as a cliched movie where robots fight off aliens.

As you can see from the arguments above, its status as a love story is very much up to question. I personally don't think it is one, and if it is that's definitely not the focus of the movie. Not to mention I would say that the film has plenty of soul, lovingly using tropes, even if some don't like how it did so.
And in my opinion it does things much differently than Eva, and not just because the main character is competent.

[KnightDisciple]

"If I wanted to watch Evangelion, I'd just watch Evangelion,"

Smack your brother because this movie is not Evangelion. At all.

Go see it. While there's potentially room for improvement in a few places for the script, and I would have liked a bit more of this and that, it was still a good movie, and it was the best Action Movie we may get this whole year.

Del Toro is a huge anime nerd, a huge mecha anime nerd, and yet instead of just blatantly copying, he lovingly homaged while still shaping a unique vision that was distinctive, visceral, and fun.

[BRC]

Saying Pacific Rim is Evangelion is like saying that every WWII movie is "Saving Private Ryan", or that every spy movie is James Bond, or that every mystery story is Sherlock Holmes.

Yes, "Giant Robots punching giant monsters" is a sub-genre with a very limited number of works. However, there is just as much room for variance within that sub-genre as there is in, say, a Western movie, or a WWII movie.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Smack your brother because this movie is not Evangelion. At all.

Go see it. While there's potentially room for improvement in a few places for the script, and I would have liked a bit more of this and that, it was still a good movie, and it was the best Action Movie we may get this whole year.

Del Toro is a huge anime nerd, a huge mecha anime nerd, and yet instead of just blatantly copying, he lovingly homaged while still shaping a unique vision that was distinctive, visceral, and fun.
That's what I was told, yes, and that's why I personally wanna see it. Del Toro has yet to disappoint me personally, and I love movies where a director is doing what they love. I think my brother's problem is that he wants to see Del Toro as more of an artsy independent type, and views a film like Pacific Rim as selling out in the worst possible way. Plus, I think he's less of the opinion "Every WWII movie is Saving Private Ryan" and more like "Saving Private Ryan is the only WWII movie that was actually good," or "Goldfinger, Casino Royale, From Russia With Love and Skyfall are the only James Bond movies worth watching," or "The people of Ireland and Scotland were godlike musicians whose genius has been banished to the bargain bins of second-hand CD stores by iPods and rock and roll." How is doing something for the love of it selling out? I think that's QUITE the opposite of selling out.

I also have another friend who had very strong words about the movie that gave me pause, claiming he "hasn't hated a movie as strongly as Pacific Rim since seeing Prometheus." Personally I don't see what the fuss is about but then I never saw Prometheus, nor was I really interested in the Alien series after having the crap scared out of me by it on the Great Movie Ride in Disney World when I was about seven or eight.

Personally, I have higher hopes after hearing more about it, and was just feeling a bit cautious and defensive given the very passionate reactions it's invoked in my social circles.

[Jayngfet]

That's what I was told, yes, and that's why I personally wanna see it. Del Toro has yet to disappoint me personally, and I love movies where a director is doing what they love. I think my brother's problem is that he wants to see Del Toro as more of an artsy independent type, and views a film like Pacific Rim as selling out in the worst possible way. How is doing something for the love of it selling out? I think that's QUITE the opposite of selling out.

I also have another friend who had very strong words about the movie that gave me pause, claiming he "hasn't hated a movie as strongly as Pacific Rim since seeing Prometheus." Personally I don't see what the fuss is about but then I never saw Prometheus, nor was I really interested in the Alien series after having the crap scared out of me by it on the Great Movie Ride in Disney World when I was about seven or eight.

Personally, I have higher hopes after hearing more about it, and was just feeling a bit cautious and defensive given the very passionate reactions it's invoked in my social circles.

It's... a very polarizing and divisive movie, when you get down to it. Hence why a lot of people across the internet are having some very volatile conversations(I mean, even moreso than usual).

I mean as one point, it's essentially a story about a couple of dudes doing a love story to an obscure genre they grew up with, but it's budget is so huge it can never really be considered a little arthouse project. It's a mostly original idea in an unpopular genre with so much money behind it it can't be slotted into any one category so easily.

At the same time, Evangelion is pretty much the only thing most of the audience has seen, if that. So the largely unfounded comparisons are inevitable. I mean look at Soras Teva Gee, who pretty much showed up and proclaimed the movie a steaming load because he walked in assuming it was an Eva fanfic. That's not a one off thing so much as a thing that's been popping up in every thread on every forum repeatedly for months and very rarely gets cleared up as it should. Guilmo Del Toro hasn't even SEEN Evangelion and Travis Beacham has, but has seen a bunch of other stuff as well. Comparisons to the only real thing in the west that's still popular are inevitable, but it's been so readily declared a ripoff it's been tainting everybodies views of it. You can still enjoy it thinking that, but it's less than ideal since you're going in with neither a clean palette nor as a real fan of the whole genre.

[Hawriel]

I saw it a few hours ago. I enjoyed this movie like I should have enjoyed Man of Steel. Just a 10 year old kid kicking his feet having a good time.

[Hawriel]

Since I've never actually gotten around to watching Pan Labyrinth and was kinda take or leave on both Hellboys (I's technically speaking better, II is a bit more watchable/fun) as movies I'm kinda questioning this "good director" rep personally.

There's some competence sure and he know his way around a fight scene and monster design but he gets talked about at a sort of elevated level I can't actually attest personally he deserves.


Your opinion of Del Toro is what I used to have for JJ Abrams. Except Del Toro's competence is consistent, while Abrams' short comings are more apparent with every movie I see of his.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

It's... a very polarizing and divisive movie, when you get down to it. Hence why a lot of people across the internet are having some very volatile conversations(I mean, even moreso than usual).

I mean as one point, it's essentially a story about a couple of dudes doing a love story to an obscure genre they grew up with, but it's budget is so huge it can never really be considered a little arthouse project. It's a mostly original idea in an unpopular genre with so much money behind it it can't be slotted into any one category so easily.

At the same time, Evangelion is pretty much the only thing most of the audience has seen, if that. So the largely unfounded comparisons are inevitable. I mean look at Soras Teva Gee, who pretty much showed up and proclaimed the movie a steaming load because he walked in assuming it was an Eva fanfic. That's not a one off thing so much as a thing that's been popping up in every thread on every forum repeatedly for months and very rarely gets cleared up as it should. Guilmo Del Toro hasn't even SEEN Evangelion and Travis Beacham has, but has seen a bunch of other stuff as well. Comparisons to the only real thing in the west that's still popular are inevitable, but it's been so readily declared a ripoff it's been tainting everybodies views of it. You can still enjoy it thinking that, but it's less than ideal since you're going in with neither a clean palette nor as a real fan of the whole genre.
Actually I kind of AM going in with a clean palette. My knowledge of Evangelion largely comes from my brother's explanation of it and my own trope-surfing. I have yet to watch the actual show, and given what I've heard and read, I'd like it even less than Pacific Rim due to how depressing it is, how socially maladjusted the characters are and how confusing it gets at the end when allegory just grabs the plot and runs away with it (at least that's what SEEMS to happen from what I can tell). And assimilation plots like that scare the bejeebers out of me like nothing else. So...more like a few dirty smudges than anything else. And I thought Real Steel was a fantastic movie. So in theory, a movie where the robots are even BIGGER should be even cooler, right? Right?! :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

Real Steel was a fantastic movie. Let no one tell you otherwise.:smallsmile:

[Deathkeeper]

Real Steel was a fantastic movie. Let no one tell you otherwise.:smallsmile:

Rock'em Sock'em Robots: The Movie not being fun to watch? Who would ever suggest such a thing?

[The Glyphstone]

Rock'em Sock'em Robots: The Movie not being fun to watch? Who would ever suggest such a thing?

It's more like Rocky Balboa: Robot Edition. It's incredibly formulaic; a father-son bonding story glued to a underdog-works-up-to-fight-the-champ boxing movie. But formulas can be good, the same way cookie recipes can be good even if you know exactly what the end result it, and Real Steel uses its formula ingredients very well. Then you add the Rock-em-Sock-em Robots visuals on top like delicious frosting on your cookies, and it just gets better.

[Hawriel]

{scrubbed}

Romance plot.

Am I reading the conversation right in that there was really no intended romance between Raleigh and Mako? I was expecting a a little more obvious showing of a romance. However it was clear to me that Mako's slight idolizing of Raleigh began to turn into affection and attraction after meeting him. After the readjustment of actually meeting some one you idolized.

Mako's whole demeanor was one of attraction. She just wasn't over the top aggressive about it. Which I appreciated. Yet still very clear.

Granted between the two characters/actors Mako had showed it better than Raleigh.

[Bhu]

Yes, "Giant Robots punching giant monsters" is a sub-genre with a very limited number of works. However, there is just as much room for variance within that sub-genre as there is in, say, a Western movie, or a WWII movie.

Japan has been doing monsters vs robots since the 50's. They're more limited than some genres but there are tons of stuff out there.

Gigantor/Tetsujin 28
Mazinger Z
Great Mazinger
UFO Robot Grendizer
God Mazinger
New Mazinger
Mazinkaiser
Mazinger Angels
Shin Mazinger
Getter Robo
Combattler V
Voltes V
Daimos
Raideen
Zambot 3
Daitarn 3
Giant Robo
Voltron
Gunbuster
Gaiking
Kotetsu Jeeg
The Brave Series
Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann
Some of the Gundam Series
Neon Genesis Evangelion
Dancougar
Planet Robo Danguard Ace
Every Sentai series featuring giant robots...

And that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's at least easily one or two dozen I didn't mention by name other than the Sentai stuff.

[Magatsu Izanagi]

On all the Evangelion {scrubbed}: If anything, Pacific Rim has more similarities with freaking Robot Jox (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW8H3tHe_FU). Who here even knows that movie exists, much less remembers it?

Also, somewhat off the cuff, but why did it have to be Raptors? It should have been Super Hornets instead. They are useless little bugs, after all. :smalltongue:

[Seharvepernfan]

Alright, so I went to see it. I'm confused about Ron Perlman's character. Was he a Jaeger pilot? How and why would he try to drift with a Kaiju brain? He did, so I guess that's (part of) how the Kaiju got better at fighting? Did I miss anything?

[SuperPanda]

Re Romance and "Death of the Author" discussion

Spoilered for being sort of off topic, some quips about the ending:

I actually think that "Death of the Author" applies far more strongly to film than it does to written stories.

Part of the foundation of "Death of the Author" is that literature in inherently dialogic, it is about the writer and the reader connecting over the book, and as such the reader's experience with the book is not inherently less valuable than the writers intention. In literature you usually have the writer, the publisher, the reader, and possibly the literary critics in that dialogue to consider (and it is a valid take to look at different editions of the same text to see how the publisher changed things and examine the publsiher's take on a text).

With a Film like Pacific Rim and a subplot like Mako/Raleigh there are more players. There is the acting director, the cinemetographer, the producer, the actors themselves, the script writer, the video editor, the musical director, the viewer, and probably some I'm missing.

Del Toro is one of those people, and its is fair for him to say "I didn't put any romance into this movie." Even if that is true it doesn't mean the romance isn't there.

For one thing, the movie deliberately sets a young unattached attractive man in an inherently intimate relationship with a young unattached attractive woman. The actors run with this and their body language suggests that neither of them is opposed to that intimacy being "friends only."

There are specific gender roles they fall into which reinforce the fact that they are man and woman. Raleigh plays the guardian angel to Mako and gets into conflicts with her surrogate father figure... Mako, who is introduced as a competent character in the fight scene then is reduced to shy and weak (with the exception of the sword vs flying Kaiju moment) for much of the rest of the movie. Raleigh sacrifices himself for her ... except not because apparently he didn't need the oxygen anyways (and at that depth they should've died going straight to the surface come to think of it). So his saving her stands out as is her near desperate need for him to still be alive at the end.

Does any of this add up to an explicit romance plot? No. Not even the concluding embrace is definitively romantic... but the film spends a lot of time on a connection between the two characters which seems to go beyond what the other pilot-teams have.

If Del Toro wanted it to be Definitively clear that there wasn't any romance in this the film would have had the characters involved with someone else (which honestly could have been amazingly funny). In the drift you share memories, so imagine if Mako was actually dating on the scientists and said scientist got an uncomfortable moment later on when Raleigh started feeling Mako's feelings for the guy... Would have been a very different movie though.

On the one hand, there is nothing in the film which is "proof" that there is romance there. On the other, there is nothing in the film which is "proof" that there isn't. The choice to make it a cross gender team between two available people who are obviously interested in one another and share an extremely intimate mental connection already is there. The choice for there to be all of the sexual tension subtext and the flirting in the fight sequence was there. The choice to make Mako go from badass (in the fight) to frightened girl while she peeped out her door at shirtless "hero" was there. The choice for shirtless hero to stand up to "Daddy" about letting Mako make her own choices was there. All of that adds up to a lot of steamy subtext which is completely reasonable to expect a viewer to pick up on as a "behind the curtain" romance arc.

I can see it either way. I think what I am seeing is a compromise between a production / marketing voice saying "Yes romance" and a director / writer saying "No romance" and the actors saying "give me more lines or I'll just make eyes at people."

Regarding the movie: A comment was made on the first page of the thread that a White Whale and Ahab inspired plot would have helped. Heck, you had the fodder for two of them.

You don't even need to have the Kaiju survive... they've been established as clone with a hive mind. So when a bigger... badder duo of swordfish-shark Kaiju and Crab-pocalypse close in on the Jager team it causes major trouble. Now me... I'd have had Raleigh's brother survive until the turn at the end of Act 1... I'd have just opened with the Shatterdome and Gyspy being an ace team with only the Mk 5 Australians and a Mk 4 piloted by the Marshal and Mako as better than them. So At the end of Act 1 when Crab-pocalypse returns and Shark Kaiju first appears, Mako freezes up causing the Marshal to have to take over the mech solo while Gypsy rushes to help. Sword-Shark comes up and smacks down Gypsy and the other 3 Jager show up to save the day.

Raleigh spend much of Act 2 out of it. Gypsy is being repaired as fast as they can. Mako is grounded, the Marshall's condition is revealed. Act 2 revolves around resolving Mako's issues (through her confronting Raleigh who hates her for freezing up and causing his brother's death) and the scientists get their moment to come up with the plan/test things out. Act 2 ends with the other 3 Jaeger in danger and Mako getting through to Raleigh, drifting with him and suiting up in the repaired Gypsy to do some major hurt.

Act 3 works as before only Mako and the Marshall can't drift anymore, The connection they'd had came from him protecting her and her dependence on him and now she's "all grown up" His insecurity from his condition and her new found confidence make them no longer compatible. So teams work same as the film now.

They don't use the nuke (since as pointed out in the thread that defeats the purpose of using the giant monsters) instead the payoff of the "drift with a kaiju" experiment is that they're able to take control of a category 4 for a while and help Gypsy fight down the Cat 5. The link doesn't last long and the sacrifice team grabs the "tame" 4 and rides it down breach while Raleigh and
mako have a last fight with "revenge of the sword-shark" during which Mako has to help Raleigh overcome his fear. Ending is more or less unchanged, only Gypsy is destroyed at the bottom of the ocean and possibly salvageable eventually.


Not saying my idea is better, I liked the film, its just how I'd have changed a few things around.


I loved that the film had such an amazing amount of thought and detail put into it that everything seemed to be begging to be extended on, but at the same time I can see that getting in the way of the movie itself. I think a closer focus on the character arcs could have really helped the few nitpicks I had. Overall though, far more fun than i was seriously expecting.

[Kitten Champion]

Re Romance and "Death of the Author" discussion

Spoilered for being sort of off topic, some quips about the ending:

I actually think that "Death of the Author" applies far more strongly to film than it does to written stories.

Part of the foundation of "Death of the Author" is that literature in inherently dialogic, it is about the writer and the reader connecting over the book, and as such the reader's experience with the book is not inherently less valuable than the writers intention. In literature you usually have the writer, the publisher, the reader, and possibly the literary critics in that dialogue to consider (and it is a valid take to look at different editions of the same text to see how the publisher changed things and examine the publsiher's take on a text).

With a Film like Pacific Rim and a subplot like Mako/Raleigh there are more players. There is the acting director, the cinemetographer, the producer, the actors themselves, the script writer, the video editor, the musical director, the viewer, and probably some I'm missing.

Del Toro is one of those people, and its is fair for him to say "I didn't put any romance into this movie." Even if that is true it doesn't mean the romance isn't there.

For one thing, the movie deliberately sets a young unattached attractive man in an inherently intimate relationship with a young unattached attractive woman. The actors run with this and their body language suggests that neither of them is opposed to that intimacy being "friends only."

There are specific gender roles they fall into which reinforce the fact that they are man and woman. Raleigh plays the guardian angel to Mako and gets into conflicts with her surrogate father figure... Mako, who is introduced as a competent character in the fight scene then is reduced to shy and weak (with the exception of the sword vs flying Kaiju moment) for much of the rest of the movie. Raleigh sacrifices himself for her ... except not because apparently he didn't need the oxygen anyways (and at that depth they should've died going straight to the surface come to think of it). So his saving her stands out as is her near desperate need for him to still be alive at the end.

Does any of this add up to an explicit romance plot? No. Not even the concluding embrace is definitively romantic... but the film spends a lot of time on a connection between the two characters which seems to go beyond what the other pilot-teams have.

If Del Toro wanted it to be Definitively clear that there wasn't any romance in this the film would have had the characters involved with someone else (which honestly could have been amazingly funny). In the drift you share memories, so imagine if Mako was actually dating on the scientists and said scientist got an uncomfortable moment later on when Raleigh started feeling Mako's feelings for the guy... Would have been a very different movie though.

On the one hand, there is nothing in the film which is "proof" that there is romance there. On the other, there is nothing in the film which is "proof" that there isn't. The choice to make it a cross gender team between two available people who are obviously interested in one another and share an extremely intimate mental connection already is there. The choice for there to be all of the sexual tension subtext and the flirting in the fight sequence was there. The choice to make Mako go from badass (in the fight) to frightened girl while she peeped out her door at shirtless "hero" was there. The choice for shirtless hero to stand up to "Daddy" about letting Mako make her own choices was there. All of that adds up to a lot of steamy subtext which is completely reasonable to expect a viewer to pick up on as a "behind the curtain" romance arc.

I can see it either way. I think what I am seeing is a compromise between a production / marketing voice saying "Yes romance" and a director / writer saying "No romance" and the actors saying "give me more lines or I'll just make eyes at people."


I agree, beyond being a collaborative process where directorial fiat isn't necessarily omnipotent, Hollywood studios tend to push for such conventions. If there is a continuation but Pacific Rim doesn't do as well as expected - or even it does - whether anyone originally intended it or not, a romance would probably happen anyways.


As to "death of the author" to me it simply means to avoid being prejudicial regarding a work based on the intimate details of an artist's life and acknowledge that the process of creating fiction leads one to a certain structure which undermines complete creative freewill and creativity isn't fully rational or conscious to begin with. That Orson Scott Card harbours opinions I deeply disagree with doesn't mean this year's coming blockbuster Ender's Game is going to be right-wing extremist propaganda, or that Will Smith "is a Scientologist" doesn't make After Earth proselytizing for an unpopular belief system. I'll wait to see the latter to make my judgments on that, I suppose. People pick a part works based on criticisms which use "facts" from that author's life that aren't necessarily in the works at all. I don't like the prejudicial attitude, especially when it's applied to women or non-whites as a blanket assumption.

Ya'know, the thing I can't understand, why people are so vehement in their repudiation of Evangelion as an inspiration for this film. Claims of plagiarism I would understand, but that accusation would seem glib on the face of it. Would it be any better if I said it's a total rip off of Gunbuster or Dancouga Nova? Simply drawing inspiration for some of its ideas, in a movie which is pretty up front in its referencing an existing body of work, I don't see the controversy. It may be an inaccurate claim - I don't really care one way or another - it's simply the way people treating it like their mother is being disparaged that bothers me. Evangelion is, regardless of your opinion on it, the most successful and globally popular giant mecha franchise to date.

[Soras Teva Gee]

At the same time, Evangelion is pretty much the only thing most of the audience has seen, if that. So the largely unfounded comparisons are inevitable. I mean look at Soras Teva Gee, who pretty much showed up and proclaimed the movie a steaming load because he walked in assuming it was an Eva fanfic.

If you turn off the White Knighting of the film for a second you might notice that being a rip of Evangelion says nothing on its own about quality. Stealing Eva's notes is actually not a bad idea. It is a show that has stuck around in otaku consciousness for a reason. :smallwink:

The problem is that they failed to make a functioning story while doing so. Nevermind a good one, this movie didn't need a good one. Just a Bayformers I basic to string action together and ensure the general audience could connect.

Every artist steals, the important thing is to do it well.


Guilmo Del Toro hasn't even SEEN Evangelion and Travis Beacham has, but has seen a bunch of other stuff as well. Comparisons to the only real thing in the west that's still popular are inevitable, but it's been so readily declared a ripoff it's been tainting everybodies views of it. You can still enjoy it thinking that, but it's less than ideal since you're going in with neither a clean palette nor as a real fan of the whole genre.

You give great weight to this whole "Del Toro hasn't seen it" thing. My conclusion after the movie is... well maybe he should have so then he could have stomped it out when the story's originator and co-screenwriter (Beacham) inserted it from the get go. And recognized when the crew was nerding out on him and putting it in too.

Also I heard nothing about Eva prior to seeing the movie. I just heard the Eva music go off in my head during a base sequence when they were getting things ready.

The rest just sort of spun out from there.

And its not like its only Eva. This movie is nabbing bits form lots and lots of source material. Some equally clear ID4 influences and a Rocket Punch is always a Rocket Punch. But yeah way to many points of similarity to Eva in particular.

Unless I'm under the mistaken understanding that old super robot shows were actually military drama all along... and not super hero drama like I thought. Because lord knows that doesn't show up in everything I can find about say Mazinger Z. Heck Tetsujin seems to have started it all with a deliberate distancing of itself from the military.

That super robot via military real robot sensibility was always something distinct about Eva and Pacific Rim does the same thing. Eva might not be the absolute first, but lord knows anything else is obscure. Add on how Crimson Typhoon and Eureka(?) are clearly from the Eva school of mecha design, down to Unit-00s head on the red one. Unless its secretly a Zaku descendent or something. Add a bunch of little bits like how they are synching to the same thing.

Finish with Mako's relationship with the Marshal and yeah. Waaaaaayyyy to much to be coincidence for me.

What's that again Del Toro didn't but Beacham did and he's the guy that came up with this movie to start. Umm, yeah. Nails and coffin, horses and death, closing and cases.

On a short list of animes people (especially outside of Japan) are likely to have seen and been influenced by Eva is just plain hard to beat. I've never understood this whole counter-revolution that seems incapable of accepting that that show can have the influence it did.

[Scowling Dragon]

Evangelion is, regardless of your opinion on it, the most successful and globally popular giant mecha franchise to date.

I thought that honor wen't too power rangers,

[Deathkeeper]

My thing against the Eva arguments is that Eva didn't invent many tropes. It took a lot of pre-existing tropes and twisted them into a deep, dark, and really weird show. So when people say that this movie ripped it because it has Mecha with suit-up scenes, has serious moments, a quiet girl, a globally funded team to wait and watch for killer monsters, bridge bunny scenes, scenes of destruction in a city, and a strong leader figure, it bothers me because Eva invented none of those things. Eva contributed to the genre as a whole (and maybe invented the incredibly annoying Rei archetype*) but it did not invent those tropes and PR uses them in a very different way, which is why I think that it's not the be-all end-all of this movie's basis.

*Speaking of which, I don't see Mako as Rei. She didn't strike me as the "Stupidly quiet and passive type who is super dedicated to the mission" that Rei is, and more of the "intelligent female character who really needs to get over her past." The two are who everyone compares, but other than being female with blue hair and soft-spoken I don't see them as very similar.

[Tiki Snakes]

*Speaking of which, I don't see Mako as Rei. She didn't strike me as the "Stupidly quiet and passive type who is super dedicated to the mission" that Rei is, and more of the "intelligent female character who really needs to get over her past." The two are who everyone compares, but other than being female with blue hair and soft-spoken I don't see them as very similar.

Yeah, that's because they aren't similar at all. Dispassionate, submissive clone girl vs revenge-driven ace pilot and her conflicting emotions and desires. There's no meaningful similarity at all.

Also, stealing Eva's notes would have been a terrible idea if they'd actually done it. But given that it has nothing significant in common with Eva that it doesn't have in common with numerous other giant robot shows, it's pretty clear Eva isn't a serious influence even if the Script-writer has seen it.

[mangosta71]

I'll say this - Pacific Rim can be enjoyable if you go in wanting nothing more than giant robots punching monsters and completely turn your brain off. That's what the movie does well. Every attempt they make to be scientific/technical will hurt if you know anything at all about the subject matter being discussed. Some of the things they do are so ridiculously stupid that, even in the context of the movie, you'll go "WTF? Why would they ever do that when this was an option?" if your brain is still switched on.

The movie is silly and ridiculous, but it's not Prometheus bad. Pacific Rim is two hours of face-palming. Prometheus is two hours of apoplectic rage.

[Karoht]

Alright, so I went to see it. I'm confused about Ron Perlman's character. Was he a Jaeger pilot?Um, no, he was a black market salesman. At no point did you see Ron Perlman in a Jaeger. How did you come to that conclusion?


How and why would he try to drift with a Kaiju brain?He didn't. You see two scientists try and drift with a Kaiju brain. Again, not sure where you got this from. As for why they tried to do so, that was explained, rather explicitly.


He did, so I guess that's (part of) how the Kaiju got better at fighting? Did I miss anything?A non-fighter drifted with a Kaiju brain, how would that help them get better at fighting?
Moreover, there was a category system. Higher and higher category Kaiju came out of the portal. The one at the end was the largest one they ever saw.
Size = Strength with these things. Most of them weren't getting 'better' they were getting more brute force from strength to apply to the Jaegers.
Lastly, they were adapting to the Jaegers because of prolonged contact/combat with them. They said this out loud. Twice actually.

[Chen]

He didn't. You see two scientists try and drift with a Kaiju brain. Again, not sure where you got this from. As for why they tried to do so, that was explained, rather explicitly.


When he took off his glasses didn't he say something to the effect of "I tried doing it too" when he was talking to the scientist dude?

[BRC]

When he took off his glasses didn't he say something to the effect of "I tried doing it too" when he was talking to the scientist dude?

He was talking about riding out a Kaiju attack in a public shelter.

[Chen]

He was talking about riding out a Kaiju attack in a public shelter.

Hmm that's not how I interpreted that line...

[BRC]

Hmm that's not how I interpreted that line...

IIRC it was something like this.

"I will be riding out this attack in my private Kaiju Bunker, YOU will be going to a public shelter. I tried doing that" *Dramatically removes glasses* "Once."

[KnightDisciple]

IIRC it was something like this.

"I will be riding out this attack in my private Kaiju Bunker, YOU will be going to a public shelter. I tried doing that" *Dramatically removes glasses* "Once."
Yeah. That was a pretty obvious meaning. Not sure how it could get confused with drifting with Kaiju. :smallconfused:

[Jayngfet]

If you turn off the White Knighting of the film for a second you might notice that being a rip of Evangelion says nothing on its own about quality. Stealing Eva's notes is actually not a bad idea. It is a show that has stuck around in otaku consciousness for a reason. :smallwink:

The problem is that they failed to make a functioning story while doing so. Nevermind a good one, this movie didn't need a good one. Just a Bayformers I basic to string action together and ensure the general audience could connect.

Every artist steals, the important thing is to do it well.



The argument wasn't just quality.

The argument is that you, you specifically and in particular, came in here and started with the claim that this was bad Evangelion fanfiction.



You give great weight to this whole "Del Toro hasn't seen it" thing. My conclusion after the movie is... well maybe he should have so then he could have stomped it out when the story's originator and co-screenwriter (Beacham) inserted it from the get go. And recognized when the crew was nerding out on him and putting it in too.


The final product by the time Del Toro came on board wasn't much. It was still in a very early stage and has been reworked several times between then and now. Even then, they were very clear about not making it a homage to any one thing.



Also I heard nothing about Eva prior to seeing the movie. I just heard the Eva music go off in my head during a base sequence when they were getting things ready.

The rest just sort of spun out from there.



Yeah, because again, that's pretty much the only Super Robot show you've seen. Which is the issue. You assumed it was the only thing you'd seen that counted and judged it entirely on that merit.



And its not like its only Eva. This movie is nabbing bits form lots and lots of source material. Some equally clear ID4 influences and a Rocket Punch is always a Rocket Punch. But yeah way to many points of similarity to Eva in particular.


Not really. You know all those shows you admit to having not seen that came out before or around the same time as Evangelion? It resembles those even more strongly.



Unless I'm under the mistaken understanding that old super robot shows were actually military drama all along... and not super hero drama like I thought. Because lord knows that doesn't show up in everything I can find about say Mazinger Z. Heck Tetsujin seems to have started it all with a deliberate distancing of itself from the military.


The team behind Pacific Rim tried NOT to make them the military for the bulk of the film. Notice how after the first fight, almost everybody stops wearing uniforms, the only ranks used aren't directly or exclusively associated with the military.

The idea of an organization having larger control of the robot than the pilots isn't new either. That's something that also began with Getter Robo, which you can't say is languishing in obscurity, mainly because it's had four sequels and remakes up until the modern day, like half a dozen separate manga, and has been in literally every Super Robot Wars game.



That super robot via military real robot sensibility was always something distinct about Eva and Pacific Rim does the same thing. Eva might not be the absolute first, but lord knows anything else is obscure. Add on how Crimson Typhoon and Eureka(?) are clearly from the Eva school of mecha design, down to Unit-00s head on the red one. Unless its secretly a Zaku descendent or something. Add a bunch of little bits like how they are synching to the same thing.


Those aren't unique to Eva either. The mecha were designed from the top down beginning with silhouettes, all of which look nothing like an Evangelion because everyone knows what they looked like and didn't want any design to be a direct reference. Pacific Rim mecha are all far bulkier than the Evangelion and move differently. Crimson Typhoons eye in one specific shot that isn't even in the theatrical version may be a nod to Evangelion, but that's the extent of it.



Finish with Mako's relationship with the Marshal and yeah. Waaaaaayyyy to much to be coincidence for me.


Their relationship is a mentor/student dynamic that has no real similarity to the Gendo/Rei dynamic outside of superficial similarities.

In any case "head honcho of the robot base has a daughter figure involved" is something that literally everything in this genre does. It's in Mazinger, Getter, Jeeg, and almost every other robots vs monsters thing to predate Eva. It's a genre staple that's shown up dozens of times over the decades. That's WHY Evangelion used it.



What's that again Del Toro didn't but Beacham did and he's the guy that came up with this movie to start. Umm, yeahs. Nails and coffin, horses and death, closing and cases.


Beacham also didn't ape the plot from Evangelion. He liked certain broad elements in a meta sense(such as it taking the genre so seriously), but he also lists a large number of other influences.

Del Toro also explicitly said that he had everything that got done on the movie after he joined on went through him. All the designs have to go through him and he knows what an Eva looks like, since he may not have seen the series but he does own figures. He oversaw the creation of every practical effect and had all the robots and monsters designed in his own home garage with him looking over the shoulder of everybody else doing design work constantly. There really couldn't be much sneaking past him considering how many designs he saw(like a hundred) vs how many got into the movie or comics or other material(less than ten I believe).



On a short list of animes people (especially outside of Japan) are likely to have seen and been influenced by Eva is just plain hard to beat. I've never understood this whole counter-revolution that seems incapable of accepting that that show can have the influence it did.

It's not about saying Evangelion wasn't influential. Nobody's denying it's one of the most influential works to come out of Japan in the last twenty years and it's influenced the bulk of what's come out in the genre since then.

What I'm saying is that in this specific instance, with this specific movie, it's influence was much more limited. Both by specific effort and by it being only one in a long, long list of anime.

The costuming and set design choices are obviously inspired by specific anime and stylistic choices that predate Evangelion in a large number of places and for every thing you could say had a direct influence, there's usually an alternate explanation given by the team that made it or else it being a trope that predates the anime by decades, being used by things Beacham and Del Toro actually did grow up with.

[TheKoalaNxtDoor]

I really think that people are writing off the international audience unfairly. Audiences over seas are now accounting for up to 80% of a movie's profits, and what the markets in china, japan, and especially brazil like are big special effects, and crazy-real, larger-than-life CGI. Whoever said that Pacific Rim had "International First" stamped all over it hit the nail on the head. I predict this will kill when it comes out in those three previously mentioned countries.

[Spacewolf]

I honestly think it's a joke having different region release dates at this point. Why can't they manage a unified release date unless their are issues with copyright or something?

[Jayngfet]

I honestly think it's a joke having different region release dates at this point. Why can't they manage a unified release date unless their are issues with copyright or something?

I think they're trying to time it to local custom. Japan's summer vacation is scheduled differently from the american/canadian/general western system. The vacation doens't begin until like mid June so by going to august they aren't risking anything. This way all the kids and teens can see it without having to jump through hoops.

Brazil is scheduled weirdly as well and according to a wikipedia check WILL miss school vacations.

Maybe it's also to get the dubs done better? I have no idea on that one.

[Bhu]

Posible sequel:

Hannibal Chau is pissed about the destruction of his bidness. Kaiju are clones, and at least one was pregnant, so Chau finds either an underage one or clones one outright, and uses it in an attempt to set himself up first as a local warlord then a world conqueror, and the race is on to build a new jaeger/repair one that was in retirement.

[Hawriel]

When he took off his glasses didn't he say something to the effect of "I tried doing it too" when he was talking to the scientist dude?

He said "I used a public shelter once". After saying he was going to his private shelter and the scientist had to run off to a public one. The obvious implied meaning is Hannibal used a public bunker, it was heavily damaged/destroyed and he was badly injured, and lost an eye.

[Karoht]

I've speculated on sequels a few times now in earlier posts, but if there is one thing I really hope they carry forward from the first film, it is this.

"So we made monsters of our own."
That theme, while being slightly cliche, to me already sounded like a sequel hook.

[GloatingSwine]

*Speaking of which, I don't see Mako as Rei. She didn't strike me as the "Stupidly quiet and passive type who is super dedicated to the mission" that Rei is, and more of the "intelligent female character who really needs to get over her past." The two are who everyone compares, but other than being female with blue hair and soft-spoken I don't see them as very similar.

She's not.

The comparisons to Eva aren't really at the level of character. If you squint a bit the aussie might be Asuka, but really it's more about the sense that they're actually fighting a hopeless battle, and the organisation doing it isn't fully trusted by the people funding them to do the job.

Eva, remember, was basically about "if you put a real 14 year old in the situation that most super robot shows do, with the level of emotional support they tend to receive, they will actually break".


A non-fighter drifted with a Kaiju brain, how would that help them get better at fighting

Not fighting, necessarily, but they were certainly better at fighting those specific Jaegers. They went almost immediately for the pilots and acted to disable them, and came prepped with an EMP to disable Striker Eureka because it was the most dangerous, whereas previously the kaiju had just been shown to batter themselves against the Jaegers until they just did enough damage in general.

It's not that they got better at fighting, but they did get access to information on their enemy.

[Jayngfet]

She's not.

The comparisons to Eva aren't really at the level of character. If you squint a bit the aussie might be Asuka, but really it's more about the sense that they're actually fighting a hopeless battle, and the organisation doing it isn't fully trusted by the people funding them to do the job.

Eva, remember, was basically about "if you put a real 14 year old in the situation that most super robot shows do, with the level of emotional support they tend to receive, they will actually break".


Yeah. Shinji is more or less a response to the Kouji Kabuto school of main character design. Though I'd argue that most teen super robot pilots are actually broken before they get into the robot.



Not fighting, necessarily, but they were certainly better at fighting those specific Jaegers. They went almost immediately for the pilots and acted to disable them, and came prepped with an EMP to disable Striker Eureka because it was the most dangerous, whereas previously the kaiju had just been shown to batter themselves against the Jaegers until they just did enough damage in general.

It's not that they got better at fighting, but they did get access to information on their enemy.

The problem there is the attack was predicted to occur then and the establishing shots show that Kaiju are grown ahead of time. For the Kaiju to just show up on schedule and to have adjusted would mean they'd need to have some kind of plug or slot and they could just swap in already done EMP and Acid weapons.

It's more likely that the Kaiju were mostly done and had already adjusted to the encounters done before. Striker Eureka had been fought almost a dozen times and Cherno Alpha and Crimson Typhoon more than half a dozen each. I could buy that they'd already adjusted.

[Seharvepernfan]

He said "I used a public shelter once". After saying he was going to his private shelter and the scientist had to run off to a public one. The obvious implied meaning is Hannibal used a public bunker, it was heavily damaged/destroyed and he was badly injured, and lost an eye.

Ah, okay. See, I missed that "public shelter" line of his, I thought he meant he tried drifting once - he did have a bloody eye.

I also thought it was implied that he had some kind of history with the marshall, perhaps as a jaegar pilot, and that's how he got to try drifting with a kaiju.

In the theater I watched it in, it was simultaneously too-loud and difficult to understand what people were saying. Often I would miss the first half of a sentence because it sounded like jiberrish.

[Bhu]

I've speculated on sequels a few times now in earlier posts, but if there is one thing I really hope they carry forward from the first film, it is this.

"So we made monsters of our own."
That theme, while being slightly cliche, to me already sounded like a sequel hook.

That would pull from Gamera. Instead of mentally linking to the Kaiju protecting humanity via amulet they could do it via drift...

[Hawriel]

Ah, okay. See, I missed that "public shelter" line of his, I thought he meant he tried drifting once - he did have a bloody eye.

I also thought it was implied that he had some kind of history with the marshall, perhaps as a jaegar pilot, and that's how he got to try drifting with a kaiju.

In the theater I watched it in, it was simultaneously too-loud and difficult to understand what people were saying. Often I would miss the first half of a sentence because it sounded like jiberrish.

Ive been in theaters like that. There is an old theater in my town that plays more indy or lesser known releases. There sound system can sound like an old loud TV set at times.

[Scowling Dragon]

Just watched the movie. It was not a complicated movie. But NOT a dumb one either.

I loved it. It feels.... wonderfully simple.

I think a better comparison then Independence Day is Stargate (Heck it even ends the same way).

Loved the movie.

[Dragonus45]

Rocky Sock'em Robots: The Movie not being fun to watch? Who would ever suggest such a thing?

Yea, i fixed that for you.

[Scowling Dragon]

Yea, i fixed that for you.

Well thats subjective. I found the action quite fun and interesting and not actually repetitive at all.

[The Glyphstone]

Well thats subjective. I found the action quite fun and interesting and not actually repetitive at all.

He was talking about Real Steel, which got mentioned a page back. He didn't even quote you.:smallcool:

[Wolf_Haley]

People need to stop witht he EVA comparisons, this is all Gaiking baby

When I saw Gypsy hit that Fisherman's suplex me and my friends got hype as hell.

[Jayngfet]

People need to stop witht he EVA comparisons, this is all Gaiking baby

When I saw Gypsy hit that Fisherman's suplex me and my friends got hype as hell.

Who DIDN'T get hyped during that ten minute sequence?

Kaiju Suplex!
Rocket Punch!
Chain Sword!
Otachi Wing!
Coolant Vent!
Thundercloud Formation!
Boat Cudgel!
Trailer Boxing-Gloves!
Crane Club!

That entire big blew my goddamned mind.

I won't lie and say this is a deep or philosophical piece. It's an action movie. But it's a GOOD action movie that knows what it is. There's no tiny dogs humping, there's no pot brownies, there's no giant steel reproductive organs.

It puts all of it's energy into what you walked in wanting to see, in order to hand you it done up as well as it can do it.

[Dragonus45]

He was talking about Real Steel, which got mentioned a page back. He didn't even quote you.:smallcool:

That i was, and also i seem to be a page behind. Also you ninja me. I am shamed.

[Wolf_Haley]

If anyone came into this movie expecting Hamlet or science that makes logical sense you messed up. This is probably the best action movie to come out in a hot minute because it has no problem being what it is and it's extremely well done and paced.

[Tychris1]

God, I loved this movie. It was just.... So freaking awesome. The music was just UUUUUGH, I couldn't help but shake and quake when it started playing and the Jaegers started punching out Kaijus. The fact that I own Heroclix models for 4 of the Kaiju has greaty deepened my love for them.

Heck, my only gripes stem from the Heroclix models themselves, the movie was pretty spot on on almost everything it did (Save some touchy spots at the end, but hey, movie drama). I just loved the look of the Kaiju. They were uniform, but in a way that didn't feel bland or repetitive. They're all big scary leathery monsters, but this one spits acid and flies! This other one has two faces! That one is a freaking giant enemy crab! THAT ONE'S HUGE! I spent most of my time just gawking at the immensity and weight of it all, the sheer lovecraftian-esque destruction that the Kaiju created with such ease. The part where the Kaiju runs through the wall of life and doesn't even slow down, smashing everything aside, just got me all giddy inside.

Not to mention the drift memory scene where the little girl was running away. Holy crap that point of view and the design of the Kaiju. I felt like I was riding by the monsters side as it just swept everything aside.

[Seharvepernfan]

I guess I'm the only one who found the music to be forgettable...because I forgot what it was like. I do remember it being moving in a few places, but I can't remember how any of it went. I can remember pretty much every scene in the movie, but I can't remember the music.

[Deathkeeper]

I guess I'm the only one who found the music to be forgettable...because I forgot what it was like. I do remember it being moving in a few places, but I can't remember how any of it went. I can remember pretty much every scene in the movie, but I can't remember the music.

I actually really liked the music. I can't remember it all, but that's mostly because the Jaeger's leitmotif dominates my memory of the soundtrack.

[Avilan the Grey]

So... when does it come out in Scandinavia?

Also, how has the marketing been in the US? There has not been a SINGLE marketing ANYTHING here, no posters, no TV spots, not even any pre-other-movies-in-theatre spots. It seems to me someone dropped the ball completely on marketing.

Sidenote: a few pages back someone talked Hellboy 2.
If I had been in that movie it would have been very very short, because of the Obvious Solution (tm) that everyone holding giant idiot balls refused to see.

[Forrestfire]

I saw posters around New York in the weeks leading up, and a few tv commercials, but not much else.

[Avilan the Grey]

I saw posters around New York in the weeks leading up, and a few tv commercials, but not much else.

So that is the obvious explanation for a bad Box Office. But why no marketing?

[Ishikar]

I saw the movie Friday and as the people I went with said "It was like my childhood done as a live action movie". The movie was the exact PERFECT type of camp, it was a little predictable but still messed with some of your expectations. It was brilliantly simple in it's theme and execution and didn't get pretentious with itself (one reason why the Eva movie I saw referenced would probably flop here outside of the established fandom). The monsters were well done and the fighting was visceral enough to feel realistic without feeling stodgy or inflexible. One particular example was when the Aussie Jaeger threw the Kaiju away and then answered my confusion of leaving melee with it by preparing to use it's missile barrage.

I think that they could have used one or two more fights to really show off the Chinese and Russian Jaegers (they got kinda punked by the plot, IMO) and I did make a comment about being sad they used buzz-saws but not some kind of chainsaw katana (which went away when we had sword boat vs. the flier). The "check for a pulse" line and action after Leatherback was both a nice call back to the first fight and a funny moment on it's own. The only thing that I really didn't get was the ridiculous insistence on the Wall project. They found out pretty quickly that it wouldn't really work but still insisted on keeping to it rather than rebooting the Jaeger project which had proved successful for years by that point.

I did enjoy the Gypsy Danger docking process though, it felt very Mazinger-ish and I had known I was going to see that movie from the first time I saw the preview online and went "holy crap rocket punch!".

[BRC]

I saw the movie Friday and as the people I went with said "It was like my childhood done as a live action movie". The movie was the exact PERFECT type of camp, it was a little predictable but still messed with some of your expectations. It was brilliantly simple in it's theme and execution and didn't get pretentious with itself (one reason why the Eva movie I saw referenced would probably flop here outside of the established fandom). The monsters were well done and the fighting was visceral enough to feel realistic without feeling stodgy or inflexible. One particular example was when the Aussie Jaeger threw the Kaiju away and then answered my confusion of leaving melee with it by preparing to use it's missile barrage.

I think that they could have used one or two more fights to really show off the Chinese and Russian Jaegers (they got kinda punked by the plot, IMO) and I did make a comment about being sad they used buzz-saws but not some kind of chainsaw katana (which went away when we had sword boat vs. the flier). The "check for a pulse" line and action after Leatherback was both a nice call back to the first fight and a funny moment on it's own. The only thing that I really didn't get was the ridiculous insistence on the Wall project. They found out pretty quickly that it wouldn't really work but still insisted on keeping to it rather than rebooting the Jaeger project which had proved successful for years by that point.

I did enjoy the Gypsy Danger docking process though, it felt very Mazinger-ish and I had known I was going to see that movie from the first time I saw the preview online and went "holy crap rocket punch!".

I've heard there was about an hour of cut footage giving the Crimson Typhoon and Cherno Alpha some more screentime. I certainly hope so. They're both really cool in concept, but they don't get to do much.


As for the wall of life, we only see that one politican continuing to support it after it was breached, and that was a very rushed press conference. Given some time (Perhaps even a few hours to confer with the rest of the Pan-Pacific Alliance) it's likely that the political community would have abandoned the project.

Perhaps the PPA agreed to putting up a united front where the Wall is concerne, so the politican didn't want to switch his view without approval from the rest of the group.


Also, the Jaeger project had spent five years (Since the appearance of the Cat 3s and 4s) being a very expensive failure.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I think that they could have used one or two more fights to really show off the Chinese and Russian Jaegers (they got kinda punked by the plot, IMO)
Absolutely; the Chinese Jaeger was a really interesting concept, and though the Russians got to show off their tough-as-permafrost stuff a bit, they totally needed more screen time--they were ace.

The only thing that I really didn't get was the ridiculous insistence on the Wall project. They found out pretty quickly that it wouldn't really work but still insisted on keeping to it rather than rebooting the Jaeger project which had proved successful for years by that point.
I didn't think it was proven to be a bad idea quickly...
To the best of my knowledge, the bigger-than-before kaiju breaking through (in a very Shingeki no Kyojin moment, heh) was a surprise to all, and it happened shortly before everything went down at Hong Kong. So they didn't have time to shift gears to the Jaegers.

[Hopeless]

So I apologize in advance for bringing this up but will this mean any extended footage will only be present in the blu ray release?

The Hobbit on dvd just consisted of the movie so I was wondering how they'll handle this when it comes out hopefully before Xmas?:smallredface:

[Scowling Dragon]

I do wish the Russians and the Chinese got too show off their stuff somewhat more.

Im sure as hell going too buy the DVD too get the extra features.

[Deathkeeper]

I've heard there was about an hour of cut footage giving the Crimson Typhoon and Cherno Alpha some more screentime. I certainly hope so. They're both really cool in concept, but they don't get to do much.
.

If they put it on the DVD I'm buying it even more than I already was going to.

[BRC]

If they put it on the DVD I'm buying it even more than I already was going to.

If there isn't, I fully expect a few Comics featuring the Jaeger war from the perspective of the Cherno Alpha pilots, piloting their trusty Mark 1 Jaeger, as various more advanced models get ripped to shreds.

[Scowling Dragon]

In general, this movie is a good jumping off point for some cool new franchise in general.

[Dragonus45]

If there isn't, I fully expect a few Comics featuring the Jaeger war from the perspective of the Cherno Alpha pilots, piloting their trusty Mark 1 Jaeger, as various more advanced models get ripped to shreds.

Honestly I think the best thing I could say about this movie is that even thought i saw it last friday, every time I think of the Cherno Alpha pilots get a severe case of the feels. They fought for so long only to get taken out at the very end of the war by a Kaiju with a cheap shot that was designed to defeat them.

[Callos_DeTerran]

So I apologize in advance for bringing this up but will this mean any extended footage will only be present in the blu ray release?

From what I've heard, a large amount of the cut footage is being used as the groundwork for the sequel (which Del Toro was signed on for before the movie even aired). I imagine we'll definitely get an 'extended' version on DVD/Blu-Ray...but not to the extent we'll get all the footage that was cut.


Honestly I think the best thing I could say about this movie is that even thought i saw it last friday, every time I think of the Cherno Alpha pilots get a severe case of the feels. They fought for so long only to get taken out at the very end of the war by a Kaiju with a cheap shot that was designed to defeat them.

They fought like warrior poets...they fought like Russians. *salute*

Also, gotta point out that it took two kaiju to take out Cherno, the Chinese one got taken out by just Otachi. Otachi (even after the reveal of it's secret weapon) was still getting her leathery butt handed to her, it was Leatherback's surprise attack that kept Cherno from finishing off Otachi...which made sense considering Leatherback was big and beefy and Otachi was essentially the fragile speedster type going two to two with the biggest and most well-armored Jaeger still in use. Sadly, we never got to see Cherno Alpha use it's flame-gel throwers...

EDIT: Also, why couldn't we have gotten this line in the movie from the prequeal tie-in graphic novel?


"I've never believed in the End Times. We are mankind. Our footprints are on the moon. When the last trumpet sounds and the Beast rises from the pit — we will kill it."
-Stacker Pentecost

If they had swapped 'Today we are cancelling the apocalypse!' line to coincide with the construction of the first Jaeger so this line was part of his speech...so much cooler then the original line considering context of the Slattern and the final battle.

[Scowling Dragon]

Plus Husband and Wife team. And a horrible drowning death.

Poor fellows. They got double teamed.

[Seharvepernfan]

They didn't drown, they got blown up. The core of their Jaeger exploded after they got pushed under the water.

[Scowling Dragon]

So a double kill. Pass out from water, then blown up.

Thats a Hardcore death.