How Much Fast Time Is Too Much Fast Time? -OR- What's the CR increase for fast time?

[unseenmage]

There's a plane in the Eberron Campaign Setting which has 10x fast time. This was powerful enough that the plane isn't connected to the cosmology; you can't Plane Shift to it, no Portals go there, etc.

My question is, how much fast time merits this treatment?
No seriously, what if it was half that? No dice? What about half that?

Basically what's the minimum amount of fast time that doesn't completely ruin all the fun?

This question is purely hypothetical. I in no way intend to use this for a real game.

Edit: For clarity, I'm curious as to the reasoning behind limiting access to Fast Time and what the minimum amount of Fast Time the Playground would allow in their games and why.

[Big Fau]

Actually, Dal Quor/Xoriat (the two planes in Eberron that have fast time traits) are disconnected from the material plane for storyline reasons. Dal Quor's natives were in a war with the Giants of Xen'Drik, and the latter found a way to sever the planar connection in order to stop the Quori from killing them all. Xoriat, on the other hand, is being held at bay by the Gatekeepers (a druidic organization) because they tried to invade and destroy Khorvaire during the Age of Monsters.

The time traits of both planes wasn't even involved, as this was part of Keith Baker's original idea.

[unseenmage]

Actually, Dal Quor/Xoriat (the two planes in Eberron that have fast time traits) are disconnected from the material plane for storyline reasons. Dal Quor's natives were in a war with the Giants of Xen'Drik, and the latter found a way to sever the planar connection in order to stop the Quori from killing them all. Xoriat, on the other hand, is being held at bay by the Gatekeepers (a druidic organization) because they tried to invade and destroy Khorvaire during the Age of Monsters.

The time traits of both planes wasn't even involved, as this was part of Keith Baker's original idea.

Sorry but that's all just the fluff of the matter. The story is largely immaterial to the mechanical, game design reasons for not letting players of D&D 3.x have access to fast time. Which was the meat of my question. My apologies for any miscommunication on my part.

[Lightlawbliss]

Genesis

if a plane exists with that trait, the players could argue that their plane could have it too.

for small comparison: x10 means a round in real time is a minute there, a minute is 10 minute, an hour is... enough time to sleep, prepare spells, and rebuff for the day

what players REALLY want (so they can abuse it of course) is something like x10000 time. that means one round is 1000 minutes or 16.66 hours. In this time, 1 round gets you... anything your could ever want out of a full day.

[Big Fau]

The fast time trait is only useful in 2 circumstances:


The time trait is advanced to the point that 1 round on the Material Plane is 24 hours on the fast time plane, allowing spellcasters to Plane Shift themselves to that plane in order to regain spells without fear of reprisal from most monsters.
To speed up the item crafting process.


Fast time isn't really useful for players outside of those contexts.

[unseenmage]

The fast time trait is only useful in 2 circumstances:


The time trait is advanced to the point that 1 round on the Material Plane is 24 hours on the fast time plane, allowing spellcasters to Plane Shift themselves to that plane in order to regain spells without fear of reprisal from most monsters.
To speed up the item crafting process.


Fast time isn't really useful for players outside of those contexts.

I agree except in the case of players playing creatures like True Dragons and Vampires which gain power as they age.

Additionally, with a demiplane with fast enough time one could imprison mortal enemies there and wait 1 day for them to age naturally to death.

[Fouredged Sword]

Except that a plain without fast time will work just as well if your opponent can't planeshift, and if he CAN planeshift, then he just shows up one round later, fully rested and ready to kill you.

[Flickerdart]

The thing about plane-shifting to a super fast time plane is that you're not the only genius to think of that, and there are going to be other creatures there who are both smart enough to use your stuff and powerful enough to loot it from your corpse. You need a private demiplane or there's no point.

[unseenmage]

It occurs to me that even if the PCs hire a bunch of NPC itemcrafters to make all their stuff on the fast time plane all that's really happened is that the Market Price for their gear has been replaced with the cost-to-create.

Is there really so little difference between a fast time enabled campaign and a normal time campaign???

[Lightlawbliss]

...
Is there really so little difference between a fast time enabled campaign and a normal time campaign???

yes. For most campains, it is safe to say fast time planes exist and nobody ever pays them ANY attention. In fact the cosmetology in the DMG has some planes with altered time, mostly the astral plane and a layer or more of the abyss.

[unseenmage]

yes. For most campains, it is safe to say fast time planes exist and nobody ever pays them ANY attention. In fact the cosmetology in the DMG has some planes with altered time, mostly the astral plane and a layer or more of the abyss.
Emphasis mine.

This bit had me chuckling as it made me picture an entire chapter of the DMG devoted to clown makeup and Joker-faced characters.

[Eldariel]

yes. For most campains, it is safe to say fast time planes exist and nobody ever pays them ANY attention. In fact the cosmetology in the DMG has some planes with altered time, mostly the astral plane and a layer or more of the abyss.

Or alternatively, they exist and everyone capable is using them. Which makes a whole lot more sense in my books.

[TuggyNE]

The fast time trait is only useful in 2 circumstances:


The time trait is advanced to the point that 1 round on the Material Plane is 24 hours on the fast time plane, allowing spellcasters to Plane Shift themselves to that plane in order to regain spells without fear of reprisal from most monsters.
To speed up the item crafting process.


Fast time isn't really useful for players outside of those contexts.

There's a third, and far more dangerous, exploit: in-combat action economy abuse by way of planar bubble/Acorn of Far Travel/Planar Shepherd. Because this straight-up gives extra actions continuously, it's almost a multiplication of the character, and by the time you hit x3 speed, it's probably the equivalent of two full characters.

[Spuddles]

Fast time is best with planar bubble. Any amount is good, because breaking the action economy is tight.


Emphasis mine.

This bit had me chuckling as it made me picture an entire chapter of the DMG devoted to clown makeup and Joker-faced characters.

Rouges are experts in cosmetology.

[unseenmage]

There's a third, and far more dangerous, exploit: in-combat action economy abuse by way of planar bubble/Acorn of Far Travel/Planar Shepherd. Because this straight-up gives extra actions continuously, it's almost a multiplication of the character, and by the time you hit x3 speed, it's probably the equivalent of two full characters.

Well at least there's a number we can work with.
With the action economy as a guide certainly we could build a rule for how much CR/ECL fast time is worth.

My question is, at what point would it need to be adjusted for mortal races vs immortal ones?
Or would that concern just get ignored with heavy applications of immortality-fu? Esp as there are several (many?) methods of attaining immunity to the deleterious effects of fast time on lifespan.

Then again, spell durations for the fast time character vs spell durations for everyone else would seem to be a major drawback as well. More so for buffs.






Rouges are experts in cosmetology.

May I please sig that?

[Lightlawbliss]

...
Then again, spell durations for the fast time character vs spell durations for everyone else would seem to be a major drawback as well. More so for buffs.
...
Depends on the buffs and how you are applying them. OH yes, and how short the fight gets with the EXTRA ACTIONS. Action economy is more important (and valuable) then spell slot economy. Spending gold for spell slots (or something to cast the spell for you [and use/day items will recharge faster in the sped up time too]) is cheap, especially compared to buying actions. And let's face it, the former adventurer is always an old man in the stories.

[Chronos]

Besides which, you don't need to be using the fast time all the time. Speed up for a combat, then end the planar bubble afterwards. Net result, you age a minute or two extra each day. That's not really even noticeable.

[Phelix-Mu]

Besides which, you don't need to be using the fast time all the time. Speed up for a combat, then end the planar bubble afterwards. Net result, you age a minute or two extra each day. That's not really even noticeable.

Couldn't a character get knocked out with the bubble still in effect? That would be bad. Wake up with a headache and a long beard you didn't previously have.