weaponizing drugs?

[Immabozo]

Would it be viable to weaonize drugs? Granted there is only 1 contact drug in D&D and since I dont remember which one, but I believe it is a "bend over in extreme pain and do nothing for 1 minute" no save drug (liquid pain maybe?)

Its a no-save or suck on hit. Seems like a CDG might then also be possible? Or just leave him almost guaranteed addicting to the most addictive drug in the D&D universe!

(I'm pretty sure this drug is the only contact drug, highest addiction rating, heavy effect damage, no-save intense pain for 1 minute in which you can take no actions, I will have to look at my books when I get home)

What do you guys think? Viable? How does it rate versus poisons?

[CyberThread]

addiction on a weapon..... I would say no....not a fan of how badly that could ruin others players interactions if they get hit with that, unless it is THE ENTIRE storyplot , and not just the DM being rude.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I couldn't find any contact drugs in the Book of Vile Darkness (not sure where else to look). Luhix is an injury drug though, and is seriously messed up if you wanted to use that. If you hit someone with it twice they have to make a fort save (DC 25) or die from overdosing on pain.

That said, it's a powder, so I'm not sure how easy it would be to deliver on a target.

[Immabozo]

I couldn't find any contact drugs in the Book of Vile Darkness (not sure where else to look). Luhix is an injury drug though, and is seriously messed up if you wanted to use that. If you hit someone with it twice they have to make a fort save (DC 25) or die from overdosing on pain.

That said, it's a powder, so I'm not sure how easy it would be to deliver on a target.

Thats the one! I knew it was something like that! I'm sure some kind of magic could attach it to a weapon, even if it's a homebrew spell, or even some kind of light water application holding onto it.

Or even some kid of weapon that is designed to deliver the drug. How much is required to count as "a dose"? Could a light powder be one, or does it require a decent amount, more than would be delivered on a blade?

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Any contact drug that doesn't allow a Fortitude save probably explains in its description that it needs to be kept in contact with bare skin for at least a few rounds. You couldn't manage that without grappling and pinning someone.

[awa]

maybe maybe not it would not be the first time wizards of the coast did not consider all the applications of an item for example dust of choking and sneezing

[Immabozo]

Any contact drug that doesn't allow a Fortitude save probably explains in its description that it needs to be kept in contact with bare skin for at least a few rounds. You couldn't manage that without grappling and pinning someone.

Even If so, might still be a funny idea for a character

[Squirrel_Dude]

Thats the one! I knew it was something like that! I'm sure some kind of magic could attach it to a weapon, even if it's a homebrew spell, or even some kind of light water application holding onto it.

Or even some kid of weapon that is designed to deliver the drug. How much is required to count as "a dose"? Could a light powder be one, or does it require a decent amount, more than would be delivered on a blade?Ask a DM about it, or find the rules on it that I can't. The reason it's considered an injury drug, by fluff, is that the drug is normally inserted into (self inflicted) bleeding wounds and then held there with tightly wound bandages.

[Immabozo]

if the online thing I found is of any value, all it takes is a "light sprinkling in an open wound" and the first minute of application, the subject is wracked with intense pain and must make a Fort save DC 25 or take 1 point of ability damage to all scores. Not to mention a second application is a fort save DC 25 or die.

seems very weaponizable to me. Even if it's full attack and then throw a cloud of Luhix at the person.

[Immabozo]

Ask a DM about it, or find the rules on it that I can't. The reason it's considered an injury drug, by fluff, is that the drug is normally inserted into (self inflicted) bleeding wounds and then held there with tightly wound bandages.

I see your point, but in RL, if someone took LSD and grappled you and forced it into your mouth, even if they couldn't get you to swallow, the drug would still be absorbed through the very thin skin of the mouth and you'd still feel the effects. Luhix is 1. also an extremely strong and one of the most addictive drugs in the D&D universe and 2. is applied more accurately by a knife covered with it, then my example.

Plus, the crunch says "The user is afflicted with intense, wracking pain for the first minute after application (the time of the ability score damage)" the drug was still administered, I think it would still take effect

[Crustypeanut]

In Pathfinder, there are injury-based drugs (Though most are inhaled or ingested), so technically one could weaponize those ones. Opium is the only one that comes to mind.. and at it's cheap price (25 gp per dose), and its brutal attribute damage-per-dose (1d4 con and 1d4 wis I think), AND fatigue, it would be stupidly overpowered to use as a weapon. But.. there are no rules saying you can't use them that way.

So by-the-rules.. technically drugs should be able to be used as a weapon by players or monsters.. in fact I'm making a character now (A dwarven Vivisectionist Alchemist) who keeps numerous doses of opium as a 'backup weapon' in case he needs to bring out the big guns. The DM hasn't disallowed it, but hasn't given me a true verdict, either.

This is Pathfinder, though, so I can't say if its the same for other versions.

[Immabozo]

In Pathfinder, there are injury-based drugs (Though most are inhaled or ingested), so technically one could weaponize those ones. Opium is the only one that comes to mind.. and at it's cheap price (25 gp per dose), and its brutal attribute damage-per-dose (1d4 con and 1d4 wis I think), AND fatigue, it would be stupidly overpowered to use as a weapon. But.. there are no rules saying you can't use them that way.

So by-the-rules.. technically drugs should be able to be used as a weapon by players or monsters.. in fact I'm making a character now (A dwarven Vivisectionist Alchemist) who keeps numerous doses of opium as a 'backup weapon' in case he needs to bring out the big guns. The DM hasn't disallowed it, but hasn't given me a true verdict, either.

This is Pathfinder, though, so I can't say if its the same for other versions.

sounds like a fun character! In 3.5 there is exactly 1 injury drug that I know of

[Darrin]

Akal Saris' Arsenic & Old Lace: the Poison Handbook (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=4854.0) is a good place to start.

I discussed drugs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8235956&postcount=11) in part of Shax's Haversack, which lists most of the nasty overdose conditions. I don't think I go too deeply into weaponizing, but there are two pieces of equipment that I've discussed in other threads that can be used to force an overdose.

The first is the Sprayer from Arms & Equipment Guide. Similar to a vaporizer or perfume bottle, this turns a liquid into a 5' x 10' area effect. For contact, injury, and inhaled drugs, this exposes your target without any attack roll or saving throw (other than the initial/secondary Fort save against the drug itself). The nasty bit is some drugs have overdose effects that kick in if you expose the target multiple times, and some of these overdose effects automatically do damage or paralyze without any further save.

If this makes your DM a little too squeemish, then you can try the Mister from Drow of the Underdark. This turns a contact or inhaled drug into a ranged touch attack (ingested drugs allow the target a Ref save DC 15). It only works on an adjacent target, which will probably trigger an AoO, but if you've got some way to negate that, then with only 2-3 rounds of work, you can render your target paralyzed or unconscious.

Kammarth was the nastiest, two doses within 8 hours and the target is automatically paralyzed for 2d4 minutes. It can be administered as contact or ingested, but I wasn't sure how the powder/jelly thing worked with the sprayer or mister. It was also magical, so not something you could whip up with psionic minor creation.

Mushroom Powder also caused paralysis, but I think you need three or four hits for that. Powder form only, so mister-friendly, and non-magical vegetable matter.

[Immabozo]

Akal Saris' Arsenic & Old Lace: the Poison Handbook (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=4854.0) is a good place to start.

I discussed drugs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8235956&postcount=11) in part of Shax's Haversack, which lists most of the nasty overdose conditions. I don't think I go too deeply into weaponizing, but there are two pieces of equipment that I've discussed in other threads that can be used to force an overdose.

The first is the Sprayer from Arms & Equipment Guide. Similar to a vaporizer or perfume bottle, this turns a liquid into a 5' x 10' area effect. For contact, injury, and inhaled drugs, this exposes your target without any attack roll or saving throw (other than the initial/secondary Fort save against the drug itself). The nasty bit is some drugs have overdose effects that kick in if you expose the target multiple times, and some of these overdose effects automatically do damage or paralyze without any further save.

If this makes your DM a little too squeemish, then you can try the Mister from Drow of the Underdark. This turns a contact inhaled drug into a ranged touch attack (ingested drugs allow the target a Ref save DC 15). It only works on an adjacent target, which will probably trigger an AoO, but if you've got some way to negate that, then with only 2-3 rounds of work, you can render your target paralyzed or unconscious.

again, I like it.

But I am seeing a ninja, with Luhix-coated shurukens, rapid fire or something to give multiple throws, and upon the second hit, DC 25 fort or die! I am loving the idea of this guy!

[Darrin]

again, I like it.

But I am seeing a ninja, with Luhix-coated shurukens, rapid fire or something to give multiple throws, and upon the second hit, DC 25 fort or die! I am loving the idea of this guy!

Try Kammarth (I edited my post). Contact poison, two shuriken hits = paralyzed, no save.

[Maginomicon]

Weaponizing drugs? Looks like someone needs to hear about The Squirt Gun Wars! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnPM7I49fj8)

[Immabozo]

Try Kammarth (I edited my post). Contact poison, two shuriken hits = paralyzed, no save.

Is that from the Book of Vile Darkness?

[Darrin]

Is that from the Book of Vile Darkness?

Kammarth
Price: 80 GP
(Lords of Darkness p. 183)
Initial: same effect as expeditious retreat for 1d4+1 minutes
Secondary: +2 alchemical bonus to Dex for duration of drug's effect
Side: none (fluff)
Overdose: 2 doses within 8 hours, 1d4 damage and paralyzed for 2d4 minutes. 3+ doses within 24 hours, 4d4 damage and paralyzed for 2d4 hours.
Comments: Magical effect. No real downside here, other than addiction or overdose. The speed increase is an enhancement bonus, however, so it won't stack with other enhancement bonuses.
Addiction: Medium

Mushroom Powder
Price: 100 GP
(Book of Vile Darkness p. 43)
Initial: +2 alchemical bonus to Int and Cha
Secondary: 1 point Str damage
Side: -2 alchemical penalty to Wis for 1d4 hours and same penalty to Str and Con for 2d4 hours
Overdose: 2d6 damage (within 12 hours) or 4d6 damage plus paralyzed for 2d4 hours
Comments: Kicks in immediately and stacks with enhancement bonuses, although bonus to Int and Cha only lasts 10 rounds. Most spellcasters could care less about the Str damage. The penalties to Wis/Str/Con have durations so they can be negated with IHS.
Addiction: Medium
Craft (Alchemy) DC: 25

[Phippster]

Weaponizing drugs? Looks like someone needs to hear about The Squirt Gun Wars! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnPM7I49fj8)

I was JUST about to post that. This is a pretty good reason why I tend to avoid drug/poison based characters, as fun as they can be to play. The rogue who has arrows with Dexterity-draining poison suddenly shuts down the DM's dragon boss fight. DM is irritated, so he starts either using poison-immune enemies all the time or starts employing killer toxins to get even.

Not all DMs will do this, of course; clever ones with throw a few poison-immune enemies into the mix as the way to make the player think on their feet, but it can still happen and I don't personally like to chance it.

[Immabozo]

Kammarth
Price: 80 GP
(Lords of Darkness p. 183)
Initial: same effect as expeditious retreat for 1d4+1 minutes
Secondary: +2 alchemical bonus to Dex for duration of drug's effect
Side: none (fluff)
Overdose: 2 doses within 8 hours, 1d4 damage and paralyzed for 2d4 minutes. 3+ doses within 24 hours, 4d4 damage and paralyzed for 2d4 hours.
Comments: Magical effect. No real downside here, other than addiction or overdose. The speed increase is an enhancement bonus, however, so it won't stack with other enhancement bonuses.
Addiction: Medium

Mushroom Powder
Price: 100 GP
(Book of Vile Darkness p. 43)
Initial: +2 alchemical bonus to Int and Cha
Secondary: 1 point Str damage
Side: -2 alchemical penalty to Wis for 1d4 hours and same penalty to Str and Con for 2d4 hours
Overdose: 2d6 damage (within 12 hours) or 4d6 damage plus paralyzed for 2d4 hours
Comments: Kicks in immediately and stacks with enhancement bonuses, although bonus to Int and Cha only lasts 10 rounds. Most spellcasters could care less about the Str damage. The penalties to Wis/Str/Con have durations so they can be negated with IHS.
Addiction: Medium
Craft (Alchemy) DC: 25

Thank you.


I was JUST about to post that. This is a pretty good reason why I tend to avoid drug/poison based characters, as fun as they can be to play. The rogue who has arrows with Dexterity-draining poison suddenly shuts down the DM's dragon boss fight. DM is irritated, so he starts either using poison-immune enemies all the time or starts employing killer toxins to get even.

Not all DMs will do this, of course; clever ones with throw a few poison-immune enemies into the mix as the way to make the player think on their feet, but it can still happen and I don't personally like to chance it.

This videos is about 8 years long. What part should I be listening to?

[Phippster]

The basic idea of it is that someone used DMSO along with all these others drugs to instantly kill pretty much anything the DM threw at them without any effort. He then gave his guards both squirt-guns with DMSO and seal bio-hazard suits. From there, it escalated to ridiculous proportions to the point where they were using water cannons filled with DMSO and arsenic, and the entire plot had been derailed.

It's an extreme example, but using things like poison/drugs can lead to stupid situations in which the DM feels cheated because his encounter went down easier than it should have, which can cause a lot of problems. I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying it's thin ice and you just need to make sure you don't cross lines with it.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Has anyone mentioned Devilweed, yet?

Its primary effect is 1 wis damage, secondary is a +2 bonus to strength. But, it has a wonderful side effect. The taker is treated as Shaken, but it's not Mind Effecting.

It's DC is only 15, but that's more than enough for the early levels.

[Immabozo]

The basic idea of it is that someone used DMSO along with all these others drugs to instantly kill pretty much anything the DM threw at them without any effort. He then gave his guards both squirt-guns with DMSO and seal bio-hazard suits. From there, it escalated to ridiculous proportions to the point where they were using water cannons filled with DMSO and arsenic, and the entire plot had been derailed.

It's an extreme example, but using things like poison/drugs can lead to stupid situations in which the DM feels cheated because his encounter went down easier than it should have, which can cause a lot of problems. I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying it's thin ice and you just need to make sure you don't cross lines with it.

I see. Well I was thinking perhaps as a last ditch effort to 1, not die and 2, avoid a TPK