Favorite Templates?

[Corinath]

I'm just now starting to go through all the templates in the game (Advanced Bestiary = lots of reading), and I'm considering creating a new version of the Miniature template to adjust, perhaps, one size decrease or two instead of "Instant Fine"

Felt like I'd ask...

What are your favorite templates in the game? Over, or under, powered?

[Perseus]

I'm just now starting to go through all the templates in the game (Advanced Bestiary = lots of reading), and I'm considering creating a new version of the Miniature template to adjust, perhaps, one size decrease or two instead of "Instant Fine"

Felt like I'd ask...

What are your favorite templates in the game? Over, or under, powered?

Blooded one, dark creature, dragonborn, mineral warrior.

Some assembly may be required.

[Aegis013]

Feral (Savage Species), Mineral Warrior(Underdark), Necropolitan(Libris Mortis), Dragonborn(Races of the Dragon), and Dark(Tome of Magic).

I don't really like +2 LA templates or higher as much, but Phrenic(Expanded Psionics Handbook) and Saint(Book of Exalted Deeds) get special mention.

These are my favorites because they're the options that seem most worthwhile for LA, or are attainable without LA; Dark can be gained from a Continual Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, for example.

[BowStreetRunner]

Dark creature from Tome of Magic. I generally don't like level adjusted templates for full casters (because you effectively lose caster levels) and skill monkeys (because missing out on HD means missing out on a bunch of skill points). But this one is almost an exception because the +8 Hide and +6 Move Silently are enough to make up for the pain of a lost level worth of skill points. Add to that it gives a movement bonus, vision-based abilities (necessary to make those Spot checks), and an early Hide in Plain Sight ability (which, granted, is not the best version of this ability) it's hard to turn your nose up at it when building a skill-monkey type. Now if it only advanced your caster level as well...:smallwink:

[Gavinfoxx]

Arctic
Divine Minion
Magic Blooded
Quasilycanthrope
Draconic Creature
Half-Air Elemental
Amphibious

[drack]

demilich? :smalltongue:

[Corinath]

demilich? :smalltongue:

Oh well then that sounds fun let me SRD tha--

What in gods name is that thing. LoL. Diminutive lich with 130 health and a CR of 29? Ooooooookay....

[drack]

Lol, +8ECL template that can only be applied on top of lich which is +4ECL, so it ends up taking 12 levels and all the xp/gold you throw into philantropys and soul gems. Still it has some nifty bonuses and abilities to justify it. That and you need to b able to cast at least level 21 before you can become one. :smallsigh: (4+8+21=level 33 minimum assuming non-gestalt)

[The Viscount]

Vecna-blooded. The best part of it is free.

[Vedhin]

White Dragonspawn from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting is fun. It's +1 LA and gives you three natural attacks, an every 2d4 rounds breath weapon, a fly speed, +7ish natural armor, darkvision, +2 Dex, +2 Con, Monstrous Humanoid type and 1 level of Sorcerer spellcasting. Meaning, you either cast as a 1st level Sorcerer or as a Sorcerer 1 level higher if you are a Sorcerer. It's like taking a level in Sorcerer, but almost universally better. You only miss out on a d4 HD and 2+Int skill points.

[unseenmage]

Welcome to Who's Gonna Apply the Effigy Template, where the base-creatures are all made up and the Level-Adjustments don't matter.

But seriously, why waste precious levels on LA when you can waste precious WBL on monster statblocks instead? :smallwink:

[Corinath]

Vecna-blooded. The best part of it is free.

MMV says it's a part of God-Blooded template, which is CR +1...doesn't that mean it's LA +1?


Welcome to Who's Gonna Apply the Effigy Template, where the base-creatures are all made up and the Level-Adjustments don't matter.

But seriously, why waste precious levels on LA when you can waste precious WBL on monster statblocks instead?

WBL, Monster Statblock?

[unseenmage]

WBL means Wealth by Level.
Statblock means monster statistics block.

The first is a joke about the trade off between level adjust and wealth by level both being a limited resource. The first denies you Hit Dice and feats while the second differs depending on your Game Master.

The second is a jab at players who (like myself) just want to play a character who gets to use a monster statistics block rife with monster abilities.


And now they're officially failed jokes because I've explained them.
:smallfrown:

[danzibr]

Lol, +8ECL template that can only be applied on top of lich which is +4ECL, so it ends up taking 12 levels and all the xp/gold you throw into philantropys and soul gems. Still it has some nifty bonuses and abilities to justify it. That and you need to b able to cast at least level 21 before you can become one. :smallsigh: (4+8+21=level 33 minimum assuming non-gestalt)
Philanthropy v. phylactery has got to be one of the funniest typos ever.

[Corinath]

WBL means Wealth by Level.
Statblock means monster statistics block.

The first is a joke about the trade off between level adjust and wealth by level both being a limited resource. The first denies you Hit Dice and feats while the second differs depending on your Game Master.

The second is a jab at players who (like myself) just want to play a character who gets to use a monster statistics block rife with monster abilities.


And now they're officially failed jokes because I've explained them.
:smallfrown:

Don't feel bad, I'm new to all of this. LoL. :)


Philanthropy v. phylactery has got to be one of the funniest typos ever.

Didn't even catch that till now. :D

[drack]

Philanthropy v. phylactery has got to be one of the funniest typos ever.
:smalltongue:

[Drelua]

One of my favourites is the Lolth-Touched template from MMIV. +6 strength and constitution, +4 hide and move silently and immunity to fear for +1 LA! Unfortunately, it sets your alignment to Chaotic Evil making it not very practical for most campaigns, but if you can convince you DM to switch around the skill and ability bonuses to fit another god, then that's not a problem anymore.

[Karnith]

MMV says it's a part of God-Blooded template, which is CR +1...doesn't that mean it's LA +1?
Not necessarily in 3.5 (though Pathfinder apparently handles LA/ECL differently). Challenge Rating is a measure of how tough a creature is to face in combat, where CR X means that a party of four characters at level X should consume about a quarter of their daily resources fighting said creature. Level Adjustment, by contrast, is in theory a measure of how much more powerful a race/creature type is above what its hit dice/character level would indicate, so that a LA +1 has an Effective Character Level of his character level +1.

Since not all of D&D is based on combat, there are abilities that will not increase a creature's combat effectiveness but that will make the creature very useful outside of combat. Consider a template that gives a creature at-will divination, contact other plane, and scrying spell-like abilities; it won't make a creature a more capable combatant (outside of being prepared, I suppose), but it will make a character with said abilities much more capable than he was without the template. So while it may not increase a character's Challenge Rating, it would probably warrant a Level Adjustment.

While CR and LA adjustments for templates are sometimes equivalent, they are far more often wildly different, virtually always with the LA far exceeding the CR adjustment. My favorite example is the vampire template, which is CR +2 and LA +8. Or, somehow the vampire template makes you the equivalent of two levels more capable in combat, but makes you the equivalent of a character eight levels higher.

[Azoth]

I am a fan of Winged from Savage Species. +2 LA for +4 DEX +2Wis and easily attainable perfect maneuverability flight at a speed based on how high you can jack your land speed to...yes please!

[ArcturusV]

Favorite? Hmm... hard question. I don't template up too often. I've liked Demonblooded, Feykissed, Felid, and Serpentine. Deathless was fun to run for a bit. But probably Undead of a sort would be the highest. Ghoul templates most likely.

As far as raw power (in what I've actually played), the Ghoul one is probably the best one maybe the Deathless one. Demonblooded is okay, but eats a bit too much LA for me to really consider it great. If it was one less, I certainly would top it out.

Just too often I don't like templating up because of the LA. I do not look forward to another game where I'm dealing with the level 12 party members who only have 12 HP...

[The Viscount]

MMV says it's a part of God-Blooded template, which is CR +1...doesn't that mean it's LA +1?

Karnith well explained the difference between CR and LA above. God-blooded happens to be an LA+1 and a CR+1 template. Vecna-blooded's most potent ability is immunity to divination. If you cast a divination spell on a Vecna-blooded creature it automatically knows your name, appearance, and location. This ability remains after it loses the other effects of the template. It could be argued that when one loses the other effects of the template one loses the LA, but I'm not sure if there's a clear RAW standing on it now that I read through it.

[blelliot]

Death Knight has been a favorite of mine for quite some time. The immunity to turning just makes me giggle. First time I used one as a villain, the cleric of the party( a relatively new player at the time) thought he could handle it. He went through the turning motions, without the knowledge(religion) roll and when his( the death knight's) skeletons went to dust and he showed no ill effect, the cleric nearly had a coniption fit. I'm also a big fan of the monster of legend and horrid creature templates

[EyethatBinds]

The corrupted creature template is always good for a laugh. I used it on a Cloud Giant to bring a mainline party fighter of 16th level down in only two rounds. The guy took over 200 points of damage before even getting a single attack on the giant.

Then the 1/2 Illithid template would be next. Can be downright scary on a Githzerai monk or a Nymph Battle Dancer.

Though I do always appreciate the 1/2 dragon template giving my ogres the ability to fly AND gain access to Flyby Attack.

[LOTRfan]

Lol, +8ECL template that can only be applied on top of lich which is +4ECL, so it ends up taking 12 levels and all the xp/gold you throw into philantropys and soul gems. Still it has some nifty bonuses and abilities to justify it. That and you need to b able to cast at least level 21 before you can become one. :smallsigh: (4+8+21=level 33 minimum assuming non-gestalt)

Perhaps the wording is different in the Epic Level Handbook, but looking at the Never mind. I was going to say that template doesn't specify that you have to be a 21st level spellcaster, but then I realized creating a soul gem requires a 21st level spellcaster.

But I still think becoming a Demilich is worth it, just for the fact that it has Astral Projection. A lich of this magnitude should already be able to create its own demiplane at that point, so all it has to do is create a small extradimensional room or dungeon and then astrally project itself wherever it needs to go. And seeing as it's an at-will ability, killing it on any other plane would do absolutely nothing and it'll be back in a couple of rounds.

[Eldan]

Templates fall in different categories for me. There's templates that you stick on a creature or character for a small bonus (feral, dark) and ones you use because they change something completely.

In the second category are all the really fun ones, I think. I love the Wendigo a lot. Vampires are also fun, especially if you find one of the monster vampire variants that you can stick on almost anything. Winged is also never wrong, as is multi-headed.

Of course, those aren't really for players, the LA is way too high. But they make fun monsters.

[drack]

But I still think becoming a Demilich is worth it, just for the fact that it has Astral Projection. A lich of this magnitude should already be able to create its own demiplane at that point, so all it has to do is create a small extradimensional room or dungeon and then astrally project itself wherever it needs to go. And seeing as it's an at-will ability, killing it on any other plane would do absolutely nothing and it'll be back in a couple of rounds.

Yup, there are plenty of fun things youcan do with it, that's part of why I picked it. :smallbiggrin:

[Karnith]

But I still think becoming a Demilich is worth it, just for the fact that it has Astral Projection. A lich of this magnitude should already be able to create its own demiplane at that point, so all it has to do is create a small extradimensional room or dungeon and then astrally project itself wherever it needs to go. And seeing as it's an at-will ability, killing it on any other plane would do absolutely nothing and it'll be back in a couple of rounds.
Two things: First, at-will astral projection is already achievable by the time Demilich becomes an option (through a Nightmare Simulacrum, Shapechanging into a Nightmare, or what have you), and second you have to Astral Project from the Material Plane. You can then move your body to a demiplane, if you are so inclined, of course, but you have to start from the Material Plane.

Demiliches are cool and everything, but LA +12 is outrageous in a very bad way.

[drack]

Demiliches are cool and everything, but LA +12 is outrageous in a very bad way.

Well 4 of that is for the lich template. :smallconfused:
That and at will harm, getting create undead&greater at will as an SLA, a few extra immunities including immunity to magic, a few nice numeric boosts like HD in insight bonus to AC, and to touch attacks, three epics and a nonepic feat worth of still spell, three epic feats, smaller size, enough turn resistance that you won't gt turned unless you're fighting something you really shouldn't be, the ability to benefit from items that can't be sundered by your opponents, and a +10 boost to all mental ability stats seems worth 8LA to me... :smallconfused:
As a nice bonus if your GM chooses to read it that way you can apply it to a dry lich instead of a normal lich. It boosts the overall LA to 13, but gives you more nice bonuses. :smalltongue:

[LOTRfan]

and second you have to Astral Project from the Material Plane.

Manual of the Planes says otherwise. I assume the spell is worded the way it is would be because the default assumption is that you are natives to the Material Plane.

But besides that, those are valid points. I didn't realize Nightmares had astral projection at will. My mistake. Actually, that might explain why it seems that they are such desirable mounts to fiends.

[nedz]

Tauric, because it's like playing with Lego. The trick is to keep the RHD down of course.

[The Viscount]

Symbiotic is hilarious and ripe for abuse, as Sgt. Cookie has showed us. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259833)

I quite like gravetouched ghoul. It's LA +2, but it's worth it to me, especially if buyoff is allowed.

[Gildedragon]

Divine Minion Nepthys
+1 LA for free flight, infinite healing, and a couple of cool wildshapes

Deep
+1 LA for +2 int, supercharging for a factotum

[Sylthia]

Call me boring, but in my current PF game, my favorite templates are Giant, Half-dragon, Advanced, Vampire, Wight, and Zombie, not necessarily all at once.

I like Lich, but mechanically, it doesn't seem to add that much challenge for a +2 level adjustment, unless no one has a magic blunt weapon. The only real bonus is having an easy returning villain, but vampires get that as well, and they get more goodies to play with.

[Darth Stabber]

As already mentioned the dark template is neat, lots of neat abilities at the cost of 1lvl, worthy of consideration in any sneaky build.

Mineral warrior offers some solid benefits (no pun intended) for any one who doesn't care about being dumb as a rock (pun intended). Also easily available if you have a spellcaster in the party, and trust the caster to release you from servitude immediately.

Necropolitan is probably my favorite, offering you all the benefits of undeath simply and easily. It also includes the flaws of undeath, but let's face it, you weren't making those fortitude saves in the first place.

The chameleon template offers reach on touch spells with your tongue which is cute, and the stealth benefits are cool (not as good as dark, but might be worth it for the touch reach).

If you get a free template, you couldn't go wrong with paragon creature. Big stat buffs and huge bonuses to everything.

[The Viscount]

Dry Lich and Psionic Lich are very cool, the only downside being they show how poorly lich stacks up.

[DeusMortuusEst]

I like the Shade template, mostly because they get a lot of seriously cool stuff, not just bonuses to abilities etc. It's LA +5 though, so it's best used for NPC:s.

Evolved (LA +1) is also nice if you're undead (Necropolitan).

[Agent 451]

If you get a free template, you couldn't go wrong with paragon creature. Big stat buffs and huge bonuses to everything.

Is there an official LA for that anywhere?

[Karnith]

Is there an official LA for that anywhere?
Yep, it's in the Epic Level Handbook. It's LA +11.

[Agent 451]

Does it actually list the LA anywhere? I mean, I see how you are getting +11 by subtracting the ilithid's 8 HD and 7 LA from the +26 ECL of the Paragon example. I'm just curious if it outright states the LA adjustment anywhere. I haven't been able to find anything like that in the ELH or the 3.5 update for it.

[Karnith]

I'm just curious if it outright states the LA adjustment anywhere.
It doesn't. 3.0 had no real set way of dealing with LA/ECL, which is why you would often never see it listed in a creature's stat block, or see it put in weird places. So stupid calculations like "Paragon Mind Flayer ECL minus Mind Flayer ECL equals Paragon LA," or "Pseudonatural Troll ECL minus Troll ECL equals Pseudonatural ECL" are the only way to calculate the LA of templates in the ELH.

[Agent 451]

Alright, thanks Karnith. Just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing something completely obvious there.