Doopelganger Questions

[DoppelgangerMan]

From my name you must know I like the Doppelganger idea at least. Well I have been reading up on the Doppelganger Monster Class.

Is there a way to play a Doppelganger without him needing to be at level 8 before he gets his first normal class point.

[Verditude]

Get a thought bottle as a effective-character-level 8 doppelganger. Find a wight, get it to drain 3 of your levels (then make sure it doesn't kill you), fail your Fortitude saves allowing the level drain to turn into level loss, trade in your 1 racial hit die for a class level, use the thought bottle to regain your XP and choose whatever class(es) you want for your 3 new levels.

Alternatively, I think Savage Species has a doppelganger monster class. Nope.

[Maginomicon]

Realize that each hit die you also gain skill points and possibly feats. While you may not get class levels until later, you're not exactly stuck out in the cold.

Also... DOOPELGANGER!!!

[Karnith]

Realize that each hit die you also gain skill points and possibly feats.
You definitely get feats as normal for your HD, but considering you only get 4 HD at ECL 8, and that Monstrous Humanoid HD aren't that great, it's a pretty raw deal.

[DoppelgangerMan]

I know I misspelled it I admit this.

I know at lvl 8 your not exactly weak but you don't have any class features beyond the race. Like yes he change shapes, he can detect thoughts, he can use simple weapons like a dagger. But in a lvl 8 dungeon how effective is he?
Yes he has feats but really how effective is he with 2 feats. He gains feats at lvl 1 and 5 I am not sure if he even gets the normal progression in level feats or ability score bonuses.

I dont know what a Thought Bottle is?

[Verditude]

If you want something like a doppelganger without all the restrictions, try a changeling (Eberron Campaign Setting).

A Thought Bottle is a magic item in Complete Arcane that sets your EXP to whatever it was when you activated it. You essentially use it to save your EXP at a certain point and then, once you've lost EXP from level drain or something, use the bottle again to restore your EXP.

If you do the trick I described, your EXP gets set to that of an ECL 8 character, but you only have 1 class level (which you traded your racial hit die for) and a +4 level adjustment, so you need 3 more levels to fill out your EXP. You thus pick whatever class levels you want.

[Karnith]

But in a lvl 8 dungeon how effective is he?In combat? Not at all. Being able to disguise yourself is cool for skill monkeying (or at least it would be if not for the fact that you get 2+Int skill points per HD), but doppelgangers are basically commoners in a fight at their ECL.

Yes he has feats but really how effective is he with 2 feats. He gains feats at lvl 1 and 5 I am not sure if he even gets the normal progression in level feats or ability score bonuses.You don't get normal feat progression based on your class/character level if you use monstrous classes. Feats are obtained at 1 HD, 3 HD, and every third hit dice after that. Normally you would get one HD per class level, but because monster classes don't give HD at every level, you only get them when your monster class gives out its first HD, its third HD, and at every third HD thereafter. For a Doppelganger, this means that by ECL 8 (your eighth level in the Doppelganger monster class), you will only have two feats, one gained at your first HD (level 1), and one gained at your third HD (level 5).

EDIT: Also, where are you getting this monster class from?

I dont know what a Thought Bottle is?
A variety of piquant cheese originating from Renton, Washington.

[DoppelgangerMan]

Races of Destiny has both the normal and the Monster Class
Special
1st +1 1d8 +0 +2 +2 (2 + Int mod) × 4 1 +2 Con, immunity to sleep and charm
effects, feat
2nd +1 1d8 +0 +2 +2 1 +2 Wis, +1 natural armor, detect thoughts
3rd +2 2d8 +1 +3 +3 2 + Int mod 2 +2 Cha, change shape (1/day)
4th +2 2d8 +1 +3 +3 2 +2 Dex, +1 natural armor,
5th +3 3d8 +1 +3 +3 2 + Int mod 3 +2 Int, change shape (3/day), feat
6th +3 3d8 +1 +3 +3 3 +2 Str, +1 natural armor
7th +4 4d8 +1 +4 +4 2 + Int mod 4 +2 Wis
8th +4 4d8 +1 +4 +4 4 +1 natural armor, change shape (unlimited)

Racial Traits at 1st Level
• Starting Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Constitution.
Even young doppelgangers are exceptionally hardy.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, doppelgangers have no
special bonuses or penalties due to size.
• Speed: Doppelganger base land speed is 30 feet.
• Darkvision: Doppelgangers can see in the dark out to 60
feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise
like normal sight, and doppelgangers can function just
fine with no light at all.
• Immunity to sleep and charm effects
• Automatic Language: Common.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the doppelganger
monster class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Doppelgangers are
proficient with all simple weapons, but have no proficiency
with any armor or shield.
Natural Armor: A doppelganger gains a +1 natural
armor bonus at 2nd level. This bonus improves by 1 every
two levels thereafter, up to +4 at 8th level.
Detect Thoughts (Su): At 2nd level, a doppelganger can
detect thoughts, as the spell (caster level 18th; Will DC 10
negates).
Change Shape (Su): At 3rd level, a doppelganger becomes
able to assume the shape of any Small or Medium humanoid.
A doppelganger can change its shape once per day at 3rd
level (but can revert to its normal form at any time), three
times per day at 5th level, and an unlimited number of times
per day at 8th level. In humanoid form, a doppelganger
loses its natural attacks. A doppelganger can remain in its
humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one. A
change in form cannot be dispelled, but a doppelganger
reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell
or ability reveals its natural form.

That is the table and the info from those pages.

As for a Changeling just seems so watered down, I mean their Minor Change Shape is just a Disguise Self Spell. It also describes it as being This ability is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration
of a changeling’s facial features, skin color and
texture, and size, within the limits described
for the spell.

So basically drop myself down to a lvl 5 using the wight to level drain me and then the thought bottle to regain those XP but since I did technically get to level 8 I can pick a class and go from 5-8 under my new class?

As for the 4 Hit Die of 1d8 each even with Con I was rolling scores here on line just now at roughly 25-35 at lvl 8.

[Karnith]

So basically drop myself down to a lvl 5 using the wight to level drain me and then the thought bottle to regain those XP but since I did technically get to level 8 I can pick a class and go from 5-8 under my new class?Be aware that, if you try this without discussing it with your DM, you are probably going to make him/her quite confused and irate. Abusing though bottles is almost universally frowned-upon in actual play. I would suggest first discussing with your DM an alternative to having to use the Doppelganger class as-written, and instead homebrewing something.

As for the 4 Hit Die of 1d8 each even with Con I was rolling scores here on line just now at roughly 25-35 at lvl 8.
That is one of the hazards of playing monster classes, yes. Your HP, HD, saves, skills, and BAB are all going to be below the normal for a character of your ECL.

[DoppelgangerMan]

I have no doubt I could sweet talk my DM into things known em since first day of 7th grade, I know where the bodies are buried as the saying goes.

If I don't abuse the bottle, only allow it to be a 1 off I doubt he will care. And it would put me what 1 effective level above my teammates if they where lvl 4s or did I mess that up?

EDIT: If I did the bottle trick, what else would I lose aside from the 1 hit dice?

[DoppelgangerMan]

So I want to make sure I understand this.
If I used the Thought Bottle it would drop my level from 8 to 5 and in the process I lose 1 hit dice. If I did it to 4 I think I lose 2 hit dice but my level effectively becomes 4. So after getting away from the Wight (As long as my hit dice do not hit zero, and since I get a Hit Dice per 2 levels I could do the 4lvls without dieing.) And then I pick a class.. and go back up to lvl 8. So I still keep all my Monster Class additions from 4-8? like Change-Shape (Unlimited) when I jump back to 8 and would that mean I could gain 4 new class skills on top of them?

So say I picked Rogue and then used the Thought Bottle and jumped back to 8, would I gain 4 levels of Rogue, and still keep my racial bonuses?

[Valthonis]

I'm not exactly sure how the thought bottle works either, but remember that the Doppleganger has a level adjustment of 4. If your class levels were from 4-8 (5 levels total) that would be reducing the LA to 3.

[DoppelgangerMan]

Well I would take it that since it was a LA of 4 and 4 RHD. So if you remove the HD its still a LA 4 so from 1-4 would be the Doppelganger class lvls and from 5-8 would be something like a Rogue class or any other standard class.

Or am I wrong?

[mrzomby]

changeling from eberron is probably your best bet. it is pretty much half doppelganger half human.

[DoppelgangerMan]

Yes but its change shape is just an Alter Self spell

[Khatoblepas]

Changeling into Cabinet Trickster is your best bet.

Possibly something like:
Changeling Rogue 1/Factotum 8/Cabinet Trickster 5/Mindspy 5

Would model a Doppleganger far better than a Doppleganger actually would. Take Font of Inspiration a lot, be a sneak attacker (Get Iajutsu Focus!) and read your opponent's mind (Lucid Dreaming may actually be a flavorful addition for once). You'll lose some skill points with Mindspy, but you'll have full HD, and be decently alien and dopplegangery. Also: Nothing says you can't use Minor Change Shape with Change Shape. If you have LA Buyoff, add in Phrenic + Magic in the Blood for some extra goodies so you're not entirely a one trick pony.

It's not game breaking, but it's way better than vanilla Doppleganger. Monstrous races are always boned, LA-wise.

[DoppelgangerMan]

Wouldn't that set up be like... a lvl 19 character?

Well my DM doesn't car about LA at all because he has seen people play Monsters and by later levels be virtually useless which is a good way to make a player just drop out if their not doing anything of real value.

But I wanted info on if I played under another DM because I am fairly certain I could make a Doppelganger Psion lvl 1 and have all the bonuses of the Doppelganger monster from starting and the DM wouldn't care to much I do tend to play the face of the party and use bluff and Diplo more then any other which is why I liked the Doppelganger for fluff.

[shaikujin]

Since you like Illithid Savant as well, why not just become an Illithid Savant, then use it to pick up either:

1) the Consume Identity ability of the Greater Doppelganger (Monsters of Faerun)

2) the Assume Identity ability of the Ethereal Doppelganger (MM2)


I was fooling around with that idea before.

Rebuild my levels & feats into a ardent (caster build), then cast Ice Assassin of myself.
Rebuild again into a psionic artificer (crafter build), ice assassin again.
Rebuild once more into a warblade (melee build), ice assassin.
Rebuild 1 last time back into whatever build you had.

Polymorph Any Object the 3 ice assassins into something with edible brains (or jello if it makes it more platable), eat their brains.

Now you can use Assume Identity to switch your build as required.

[DoppelgangerMan]

To be a Illithid Savant you need to be a Mindflayer to qualify for it.
Doppelgangers can only turn into Humaniods, Mindflayers are not Humaniod they are aberration.

And I am a noob so what you just said sounds cool.. but I am stumped.
Speak to me like a 5 year old would ya?

[shaikujin]

No worries, I tend to jump steps.

What I meant was, rather than starting as Doppelganger, start as a Mindflayer instead.

Then go into the Illithid Savant PrC.

Using the Illithid Savant, eat the brain of an Ethereal Doppelganger or a Greater Doppelganger to pick up their abilities to change into someone else.



Also, how familiar are you with template stacking and the Symbiotic, Tauric and Lycanthrope templates?

You can cut down LA/RHD drastically, but it's quite cheesy.

[DoppelgangerMan]

I have the Savage Species book but I have not actually read up on the Templates.

I figured I have a thread on how to make a Mindflayer playable without starting at lvl 15

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

As a doppelganger you get change shape and detect thoughts
when ppl succeed their saves for detect thoughts, they know someone is casting spells at them - so don't expect to spam it.

On the other hand, as a rogue changeling (and maybe factotum and/or chameleon) you can still change your shape, and disguise yourself in a way no one will be able to tell (with the disguise skill). You won't be able to detect thoughts at low levels, but you will get spells either from factotum or from chameleon (or even use wands). Also, you will have diplomacy, bluff and other skills like that, and with changeling rogue sub levels you can take 10 on them. And if you go chameleon, you will be able to cast divine spells when you are disguised as a cleric, wizard spells when you are a wizard, etc etc (you get spells from all divine/arcane spell lists) and later you can cast bot at once. Also you get a feat you can change each day to help you better fit into your role, and other useful things.

If you like doppelganger, you HAVE to check out changeling rogue, factotum, and the chameleon prestige class. I once went for a build changeling rogue 1/factotum 3/rogue 1/chameleon x. We stopped playing at some point, but it was fun.

you can find chameleon here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b)
factotum is from dungeonscape
you can find changeling in MM3
and changeling rogue sub levels in Races of Ebberon I think