True Undetectability

[PrinceOfMadness]

Is there a way to become completely undetectable to all forms of perception? The best I've been able to come up with is combining Superior Invisibility (SpC) with Mind Blank, which does a fair job of rendering you undetectable to many things, but it does have a few exploitable loopholes (mindsight, for one).

Clarification: this is a theoretical optimization experiment, and I have no intention of actually playing this in a game - so any dirty tricks go.

[Venusaur]

Darkstalker from Lords of Madness forces a listen check for blindsight. Mind Blank should let you beat mindsight, so I don't see why it would be a problem.

Edit: Vecna-Blooded is nice, and telepathy block may be able to block mindsight if mind blank doesn't work.

[Piggy Knowles]

If you're talking TO, then Superior Invisibility + Mind Blank is pretty good but still beatable...

Mindsight technically is not blocked by mind blank (although I houserule that to be the case in my campaigns, because I think it should).

Lifesight similarly will detect you, unless you are undead or a construct.

The deathwatch spell is not divination based, and therefore will not be blocked by Mind Blank. It won't let them pinpoint your location, but they will know that there is a creature within the range of the spell, even if you're undead or a construct.

Mind blank does not technically protect your items, so they will still show up if looked for - consider lining all your magic items with lead, or else you will glow like a Christmas tree whenever anyone casts detect magic or arcane sight.

Touchsight is of course hard to beat.

If you're a necropolitan who can turn incorporeal and line your magic items with lead, you'll beat most of the above, but Mindsight and deathwatch will still catch you. You can shut down telepathy, such as with the Hellbreaker's ability, but you've got to be close to your target to do so, and they'll still know something is up based on the fact that their telepathic field is suddenly suppressed.

Vecna-blooded also helps, as its flat divination immunity is potentially even better than what Mind Blank offers.

[tyckspoon]

Superior Invis + Mindblank + Incorporeality (prevents Touchsight) covers most things, assuming you believe Mindblank defeats True Seeing (although you still have a potential issue with creatures and abilities that simply have True Sight without actually casting the spell.) Mindsight is tricky- if you can't convince a DM that Mindblank covers it, you basically have to find a way to be or present yourself as being Mindless.. and I'm not aware of anything that grants that quality without actually making you mindless.


Darkstalker from Lords of Madness forces a listen check for blindsight. Mind Blank should let you beat mindsight, so I don't see why it would be a problem.

Superior Invis explicitly defeats every form of sense that Darkstalker helps with. Useful if you want a non-magical backup plan, tho.

[GreenETC]

There are plenty of counters to Mindsight.

The easiest one is to just go ethereal. Mindsight can't cross planar boundaries.

Then there is just Shapechanging into anything of the Ooze or Vermin Type. You gain the type and one of the features of those two types is Mindless. Mindsight specifically prevents you from detecting the minds of Mindless creatures.

Mindsight is nifty but it's not unbeatable.
Tippy went over Mindsight in another thread, so it looks like you're going to need to add a way to go Ethereal in there, if this is correct. Time for some Incorporeal Undead.

[karkus]

Just pointing out the obvious:

D&D is basically designed so that there are no limits on anything. Something can eventually be stronger.

With the Epic Seed, Conceal, you can make a nondetectability spell however powerful you want.

Conversely, you can make a detectability spell however powerful you want with the Reveal Seed.

Now that that's out of the way, try some Boots of Silence for a mere 21,600 gps. Activated by a command word (should probably be "Shh!" :smallwink:), it makes you completely silent, as per the spell. The main problem here, however, is that you can't make the verbal components for other spells...

Similarly, a fairly-balanced Epic monster ("Gloom (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Gloom)," right?) gets a pretty decent Silence effect, if you can somehow copy that.

As for wings, dragonfly-like wings are specified to make it unable for the flier to be quiet while in use, so avoid those, whereas I believe that butterfly/moth-like wings are very easily used in conjunction with Move Silently. So keep that in mind if you want some wings, although Perfect Maneuverability can also be gained from a simple Fly spell...

I know that you were probably looking for some anti-scrying abilities, but this is good for when creatures are near you in the field; not when they're in their Lazy Boy chair in front of a crystal ball :smalltongue:

[Dlkpi]

The 20th level ability for Ninjas (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classes/ninja.html) in Pathfinder specifies that you "cannot be detected by any means". That seems like it'd cover all your bases.

[Drachasor]

Well, as a cheat, Magic Jar/Disguise Self/Alter Self, Mind Blank, and a high bluff check should be good enough in a lot of situations. Being someone your target is fine having close by is nearly as good as true undetectability.

[Khedrac]

For a good start be an Invisible Stalker (or other naturally invisible creature) and cast Superior Invisibility. One of the limitations of True Seeing is that it does not show up naturally invisible creatures as it shows them as they really are - invisible.

Note, this won't work with polymorph or similar, you actually need to be naturally invisible.

[Chronos]

Superior Invisibility plus Mindblank can also be defeated by a sufficiently-high Spot check: The DC to notice the presence of an invisible creature is only 20. Nor does Superior Invisibility override this, as the spell says "Certain mundane conditions (such as leaving footprints) can also render a subject detectable.". This Spot check won't make you invisible or even pinpoint your location (you need a DC 80 Spot check, "defeat illusion", to do that), but it will let you know that someone's there, which is more than you want. So any method of total undetectability still depends on having a Hide check significantly higher than your opponent's Spot.

The 6th-level ability of the Slayer prestige class, Cerebral Blind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm#cerebralBlind), is slightly better than the Mind Blank spell, and protects against "all devices, powers, and spells that reveal location". There's no exception made for non-divination methods, and it definitely works against Touchsight (since that's a power that reveals location). Mindsight might still work, though, depending on whether you consider "all... powers" to mean psionic powers, or take a broader meaning of "power".

[Waker]

Though some might disagree with me, I'd say the Telepathic Immunity ability from a 5th level Cerebrex would protect you from Mindsight. It makes you immune to telepathy or all forms of mind-reading.

[hydraa]

Since any thing goes. Hold a Sphere of Annihilation

[Necroticplague]

A ghost that hasn't manifested is undetectable, at least from the Material plane (which let's be frank, is where about 90% of all stuff is).Just cast an invisible Superior Invisibility to protect from someone using See Invisible, and you're all set to go.

[Piggy Knowles]

Though some might disagree with me, I'd say the Telepathic Immunity ability from a 5th level Cerebrex would protect you from Mindsight. It makes you immune to telepathy or all forms of mind-reading.

Again, I agree that this should beat Mindsight, just as mind blank should. However, Mindsight doesn't say that you're detecting them with your telepathy (even though it's strongly implied). Instead, it grants you an entirely new sense that works within the range of your telepathy.

It's silly, and in an actual game, one of my first houserules is that mind blank and immunity to telepathy specifically beat Mindsight, and that undead are also immune (based on the line in LoM about elder brains, who use Mindsight, being unable to detect undead). But if you're talking TO, you've got to assume that what you're trying to beat is also using TO assumptions.

Shapechanging into something with the mindless trait should work nicely, though.

Being on a different plane of course is a nice way to hide, although there are surprisingly few ways to affect creatures on the material plane when you're ethereal. That does remind me, though, of the Fiend of Possession's hide presence ability. That lets you make hide checks to defeat "virtually anything that would betray its presence in the possessed creature or object," and under examples shows it using hide checks to beat detect evil and pass through an area warded by forbiddance or magic circle.

[TheGeckoKing]

They can't find you if you don't exist. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fieryDiscorporation.htm) :smallwink:

[Psyren]

Vecna-blooded is great, but there's no way to actually get it without DM assistance. Vecna's portfolio appears to be trolling.

[Vedhin]

Vecna-blooded is great, but there's no way to actually get it without DM assistance. Vecna's portfolio appears to be trolling.

No, it's secrets. There probably is a way to get the template, but it's kept secret. That way Vecna is the only one with the secret secret of secrecy, and maintains dominance over his portfolio.

[Valwyn]

It's actually possible to be alive and escape Lifesense. Lifesense specifically says "This life-light behaves like regular light," so it basically turns the living into torches. If you use a spell with the Darkness descriptor, you should be able to block the light. I'd recommend a cloak with a constant Blacklight effect. It only lasts 1 round/level, so it would be expensive, but it might be worth it if you're having trouble with undead. Plus, a figure hooded in impenetrable darkness is kinda cool. :smalltongue:

[Thurbane]

A ghost that hasn't manifested is undetectable, at least from the Material plane (which let's be frank, is where about 90% of all stuff is).Just cast an invisible Superior Invisibility to protect from someone using See Invisible, and you're all set to go.
Would a Dream Dwarf's Dream Sight be able to get around that?

[Psyren]

No, it's secrets.

EDI: "That was a joke"

[Brains]

Vecna-blooded is great, but there's no way to actually get it without DM assistance. Vecna's portfolio appears to be trolling.

If you meet the prerequisite and take it at first level, I don't think many DMs would call you out on fluff. Randomly obtaining it at some point in the later levels would be stretching it for sure.

[Arcanist]

No, it's secrets.

Is it safe? :smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

Dust of Disappearance, should be a nice starter, since "you cannot be detected by magical means"...

[Psyren]

If you meet the prerequisite and take it at first level, I don't think many DMs would call you out on fluff. Randomly obtaining it at some point in the later levels would be stretching it for sure.

The crunch specifically references the fluff though. You can't get around it by RAW.


CREATING A GOD-BLOODED CREATURE

“God-blooded” is an acquired template that can be added to a creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature) favored by the deity in question, as defined in the specific deity entries.

You have to be "favored," and the procedure to gain favor is defined in the entry. Vecna's is... I'll be charitable and say "unlikely."

[Andezzar]

So keep that in mind if you want some wings, although Perfect Maneuverability can also be gained from a simple Fly spell...You are mistaken:
The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load). It can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed, and its maneuverability is good.

[Arcanist]

You have to be "favored," and the procedure to gain favor is defined in the entry. Vecna's is... I'll be charitable and say "unlikely."

Gaining Vecna's favor, per the letter of the template, requires you to be an Evil creature capable of casting 2nd arcane level spells. You must also solve the 7 riddles of Vecna and travel to the Oubliette of Secrets to encounter the Anchorites and be tortured for an undisclosed amount of time until you emerge a Vecna Blooded.

The real trouble is solving the seven riddles because they're undefined and thus unknowable and unsolvable. Saying that it is "unlikely" is WAY to charitable, you would be better off being brutally honest in saying it is "impossible". :smalltongue:

[Necroticplague]

Would a Dream Dwarf's Dream Sight be able to get around that?

It would appear to be so. In that case, just layer a normal Superior Invisibilty over the Invisible Superior Invisibility while de-manifested. A dream dwarf can't see cause you're invisible, someone using see invisible can't see you because they see the effects of the invisible spell, which makes you invisible, and everything else can't see you because senses don't normally extend acoss planes. Other ethereal creatures could use mindsight to figure where you were, but other than that, i think you're pretty good.

[Scow2]

Superior Invisibility plus Mindblank can also be defeated by a sufficiently-high Spot check: The DC to notice the presence of an invisible creature is only 20. Nor does Superior Invisibility override this, as the spell says "Certain mundane conditions (such as leaving footprints) can also render a subject detectable.". This Spot check won't make you invisible or even pinpoint your location (you need a DC 80 Spot check, "defeat illusion", to do that), but it will let you know that someone's there, which is more than you want. So any method of total undetectability still depends on having a Hide check significantly higher than your opponent's Spot.

Actually, it's "only" DC 40-60 to Pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. Defeat Illusion is another function entirely.

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).

[Phelix-Mu]

Epic-level stuff, but there was a discussion in another thread about the ELH item ring of sequestering. This 3.0 ring seems to refer back to the 3.0 sequester description, which didn't have the clause about being "as invisibility."

So, the ring doesn't cause the sequester coma, and prevents all forms of "sight" and divination. Pretty nice. One could make the argument that it blocks mindsight, as mindsight is a kind of "sight."

The key to this interpretation is getting the 3.0 version of sequester that the 3.0 ring is referencing, as the 3.5 version was bizarrely nerfed, making the item less useful

[Chronos]

Ah, OK, I was looking at the Spot skill description, not the special ability entry for Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility).