Mind Flayer as Playable

[DoppelgangerMan]

How would you do it?

Me I would drop the levels with no Additional Hit Dice, so removing 7 of the 15 SS levels
Now the Ability Bonuses are insane they add up to +26 total from 1 to 15
Well from 1-7 each level they have give +2 to one of the stats (!rst level they dont)

But as far as things like Mind Blast, Psionics and the like. I would have no clue.

I am curious because I am contemplating a Mind Flayer for a Monsters Only game I and my current DM are discussing maybe making.

[TroubleBrewing]

Check the homebrew thread for a Mind Flayer class. It gives the abilities spaced out over a good number of levels.

[gurgleflep]

Check the homebrew thread for a Mind Flayer class. It gives the abilities spaced out over a good number of levels.

He could do that or look into the Savage Species book. I've asked this same question and was pointed directly to it - it's one of the few good progressions!
If you're wanting one that's actually psionic, it's easily modified.

[DoppelgangerMan]

I am looking at the SS one, Savage Species is where I got that stuff from.

I figured someone had a home brew but I was curious how other people would do it.

I think its an ok progression but A Mind Blast that only does 3d4 and has a will save of 10 +4+Char Mod is not that good. I mean yes by 15 you have a+6 to Char so you can get a 5/6/7 to throw into that last slot but its not insane to roll a will save that high and it does no damage.

Your tentacles which is your ONLY weapon do 1d4 plus your strength mod.

How powerful is Telepathy 100ft?

[mabriss lethe]

Another fun way to go:

Build an LA 0 psychic warrior and then use your class bonus feats to acquire Illithid heritage feats. You can get brain eating!

[gurgleflep]

How powerful is Telepathy 100ft?

As far as I know, telepathy is just for speech. I'm pretty sure you'd be able to locate every intelligent being within that distance though, I've never gotten to actually play a mind flayer.


Another fun way to go:

Build an LA 0 psychic warrior and then use your class bonus feats to acquire Illithid heritage feats. You can get brain eating!

I like this idea! Do it!
I do have a question about this though: would doing this qualify you for Illithid Savant?

[DoppelgangerMan]

Yeah but its not the same now is it lol
Not to mention you do not qualify for the Illithid Savant Prc Class

I was thinking, remove the empty levels, which would drop it down to a lvl 8 character. Either keep the layout from Savage Species as a Racial progression and let it go to normal classes from 9 on or condense down the abilities like Telepathy 100 to where you gained telepathy 60 ft instead, make Mind Blast an At Will at lvl 7/8 and as for the Astral Projection and Plane Shift Maybe add them at either 7/8 or into level 9/10 as racial progression.

Why PsyWarrior?

[Greymane]

Gorgondantess made a fantastic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9159107&postcount=1357) homebrew one that I rather like.

[Karnith]

As far as I know, telepathy is just for speech. I'm pretty sure you'd be able to locate every intelligent being within that distance though, I've never gotten to actually play a mind flayer.
Well, telepathy on its own isn't that great, but it enables you to take the Mindsight feat (from Lords of Madness), which is quite strong.

[TheGeckoKing]

There's a magic item called the Clockwork Mask of the Mindflayer detailed at the end of this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20061017a) free downloadable adventure. It'll get you the tentacles and brain-eating you want if you just want to play a refluffed Psion or something.

[DoppelgangerMan]

Ah ok I have seen that talent before, forgot about it.

The build is rather nice, I may use that but I was curious how you would work on it if someone came to your game and wanted to play it.

Would you let them use the Thought Bottle trickto reduce their level if they had to go to 15 to allow them some class levels. Their HD would be 8 over 15 levels, skills would be (2+Int)x11
So lets say you get the best possible score for Int, a 4. Thats 66 skills at level 15 and HP wise that is roughly (3d8+12(If you had 4 in Con Score)=36 Max)+(5d8+25(If your Con went to 5)=65(Max)) 101 MAX hp that is if your GM just tells you to take the max on your hitdie each level.

So their very weak after the opening levels
2nd Str+2
3rd +2 Wis
4th +2 Con
5th +2 Int
6th +2 Dex
7th +2 Cha
8th
9th +2 Int
10th +2 Wis
11th +2 Cha
12th
13th +2 Int; +2 Dex
14th +2 Wis
15th +2 Cha

Now that is a lot of bonuses to Cha, Wis, and Int. How would you handle this?

Namely how would you handle the 15 level adjustment, the fact you would have a lvl 15 Mindflayer in your party who is much weaker then your other players

Mindflayers cannot use ANY weapons or armor mind you.

[Rubik]

You could always take the standard mind flayer savage progression, but buy off every empty level as a level adjustment. That way you'll have everything bought off and will be only a level or (at most) two behind by the time you're finished, and you'll level up much more quickly.

[DoppelgangerMan]

Well that was kinda the idea of dropping off the empty levels. But a thought bottle could bottle the EXP couldn't I use that to pay off the XP for those 7 empty levels? Leaving me at level 8 total.

[Rubik]

Well that was kinda the idea of dropping off the empty levels. But a thought bottle could bottle the EXP couldn't I use that to pay off the XP for those 7 empty levels? Leaving me at level 8 total.That could work. Serious cheese, but it's doable.

[DoppelgangerMan]

Well blame the guy in the Doppelganger thread for introducing me to the Cureall of the Thought bottle (I know its not)

Because it would work to pay off those levels to deal with the inflation of the Monster Class which is not all that powerful even if given all their abilities at lvl 1.

Because in theory you could use the Thought Bottle again to save your new lvl 8 and let a Wight drain you down to level 1 (Leaving you with only 1 hit dice) and then choose a class and use the Thought Bottle to level up to 8 meaning your effective character level is 8 with 1 level as a monster and the 7 as the class of choice.

Or did I totally mess that up?

[DoppelgangerMan]

Ok if I took Human PsyWarrior and my first three Feats where Illithid Heritage, Illithid Skin, and Illithid Grapple.
How would flaws work? How would you build it or rule on it?
I would see as the Tentacles having a good benefit but Storyline wise and in character your features are messed up and now people see you with this and how much you look like a illithid and might react hostile toward you. Maybe tie in a -1 Charisma for each Grapple taken as a flaw

What would you give or get for having these flaws?

[Urpriest]

I'd just like to point out that if your DM is running an all-monster campaign, then they'll either have houserules in place to make playing monsters easier or they'll be reducing the challenge of encounters. Either way, trying to circumvent monster RHD and LA in that sort of environment is a bad idea.

[DoppelgangerMan]

Agreed just dont want to play a Flayer at 15 who is weaker then a lvl 8.
As for the Illithid Heritage Feats Question
Would you allow someone to take the Grapple feat (3 or 4 of them) as flaws?

[Urpriest]

Agreed just dont want to play a Flayer at 15 who is weaker then a lvl 8.


Why are you assuming the character is weaker than a level 8? They're weaker than a level 8 Human, sure...but if you're in a campaign with other characters with comparable level adjustments, you'll be of comparable power to them, and if your DM is lowering the difficulty of your enemies to match then that's the power level you should be aiming for.

[DoppelgangerMan]

Why are you assuming the character is weaker than a level 8? They're weaker than a level 8 Human, sure...but if you're in a campaign with other characters with comparable level adjustments, you'll be of comparable power to them, and if your DM is lowering the difficulty of your enemies to match then that's the power level you should be aiming for.

I know i was meaning the human. the other monsters would not have my high of a level I think one wants to be a centaur, a Doppelganger, so each of those have a LA of 4 plus 4 dice so level 8. LA make my head hurt.

Also again, on the Heritage feats?

[DoppelgangerMan]

UPDATE:
Ok my GM has decided that at least for me and the Mind Flayer he may just let me have two progression charts. One for my class and one for my race. Meaning I would start as a lvl 1 Mind Flayer and get Feat; 2 Tentacles 1d4, +1 Natural Armor. But I could also take a class such as Illithid Savant and level up both together. He said he would just ignore the Races Hit Die and Skills and only use the class die and skills.

He wants to know if this would be OP?

[Rubik]

UPDATE:
Ok my GM has decided that at least for me and the Mind Flayer he may just let me have two progression charts. One for my class and one for my race. Meaning I would start as a lvl 1 Mind Flayer and get Feat; 2 Tentacles 1d4, +1 Natural Armor. But I could also take a class such as Illithid Savant and level up both together. He said he would just ignore the Races Hit Die and Skills and only use the class die and skills.

He wants to know if this would be OP?Why not ask your DM about gestalt rules? Put race on one side and class on the other, so people with high LAs aren't horrifically penalized. They'll come out at about the same all around, depending on optimization levels.

[DoppelgangerMan]

Well here is my plan you tell me if it would work.
I am planning on playing a Mind Flayer to get Illithid Savant, and then after lvl 3 go Psion Telepath

[Karnith]

[...]Illithid Savant[...]

He wants to know if this would be OP?
Yeah, things involving Illithid Savant have a tendency to be OP. Make sure to carefully discuss with your DM what you plan on getting from Illithid Savant and/or what he makes available with it, because it's a very powerful class.

[DoppelgangerMan]

Yeah, things involving Illithid Savant have a tendency to be OP. Make sure to carefully discuss with your DM what you plan on getting from Illithid Savant and/or what he makes available with it, because it's a very powerful class.

I only plan to go up to level 3 so 1 skill, 1 feat, 1 feature from something I eat.

[Karnith]

I only plan to go up to level 3 so 1 skill, 1 feat, 1 feature from something I eat.
Getting one class feature can be extremely powerful, particularly if said class feature is spellcasting (though getting stuff like Wildshape for free is pretty strong, too).

[DoppelgangerMan]

Yeah I know the Savants are insanely powerful but Flayers dont feel very psychic at this point, they have a few psionic powers so I wanted to go into Psion.. especially since at lvl 10 it gets 3 of each from a victim.

[mabriss lethe]

I think there *was* some way to take a ritual to allow you to be treated as a creature that you aren't. I think it was in savage species, but I don't recall off the top of my head. It costs a load of gold though, if I remember correctly. There may be a way to use it to enter into Illithid Savant. It looks like Ritual of
Association in savage species may be used to allow an illithid heritage psychic warrior enter Illithid Savant.

[Rubik]

I think there *was* some way to take a ritual to allow you to be treated as a creature that you aren't. I think it was in savage species, but I don't recall off the top of my head. It costs a load of gold though, if I remember correctly. There may be a way to use it to enter into Illithid Savant. It looks like Ritual of
Association in savage species may be used to allow an illithid heritage psychic warrior enter Illithid Savant.For even more fun, a psychic warrior illithid slayer turned illithid savant.

KNOW THY ENEMY.

What better way to know them than to be one yourself?

[DoppelgangerMan]

But how, the prereq for Savant is to be a Mind flayer so how does that work?

Not that I wouldn't mind that idea. I do think this would be interesting and slightly more legit.

[Rubik]

But how, the prereq for Savant is to be a Mind flayer so how does that work?

Not that I wouldn't mind that idea. I do think this would be interesting and slightly more legit.An illithid psywar (or telepath)/illithid slayer/illithid savant.

[DoppelgangerMan]

If you're a Illithid wouldn't the slayer class kill you off? They hunt the Mindflayers.

[Rubik]

If you're a Illithid wouldn't the slayer class kill you off? They hunt the Mindflayers.The class doesn't prevent illithids from entering. They just have to go after illithids to kill them. It doesn't forbid illithid illithid-killers.

[DoppelgangerMan]

Well I suppose so especially if they became a Illithid due to a ritual or curse they would hate what they are. Good RP options.

Ritual of Association does say it changes Subtype or Type and says to Orc, Gobliniod, etc. So you could use that to transform the subject into an illithid by turning them into an Aberration Illithid.

Or Wish being simple. I could work with the DM to say someone Wished a curse on him.

[mabriss lethe]

A cheaper method might be to look up the generic cursed item list in the SRD. One of the options is that it changes the player's race. I've always loved that little joke.

" It's a dwarven flaming waraxe... Well, sort of. You see it only works for dwarves, that's true enough. the axe just interprets that a wee bit liberally. How do we put it? It really works for everyone, because if you're not a dwarf it makes you a dwarf. Do you still want it now?"

[DoppelgangerMan]

I could do that have the cursed object me an Illithid mask or so and it actually changes him.

What Template should I use? The Psionic Mindflayer in the Expanded Psionic Book? Like those skills, abilities and what not. Like Improved Grab and Extraction?