epic DR question

[tim01300]

My roommate and I are slightly confused on epic damage reduction. If a creature has Damage reduction 10/epic, that means it gets the minus 10 to everything except epic damage. What is epic damage, anything done by a character level 21 and up? Or is it solely based off the weapon, and if so when does a weapon become epic? anything after +5?

[137beth]

My roommate and I are slightly confused on epic damage reduction. If a creature has Damage reduction 10/epic, that means it gets the minus 10 to everything except epic damage. What is epic damage, anything done by a character level 21 and up? Or is it solely based off the weapon, and if so when does a weapon become epic? anything after +5?

It is only bypassed by a weapon with a modifier of +6 or higher. Note, this does not mean +5 with a special ability, it means an actual +6 weapon, which is normally only available to epic characters.
Certain high level monsters also automatically bypass DR/epic--these monsters will tell you in their description.

[tim01300]

Ok thanks for clarifying

[Glimbur]

It is only bypassed by a weapon with a modifier of +6 or higher. Note, this does not mean +5 with a special ability, it means an actual +6 weapon, which is normally only available to epic characters.
Certain high level monsters also automatically bypass DR/epic--these monsters will tell you in their description.

Why? Per epic DR,
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Per, for example, Bane,
Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus.

So, a +5 evil outsider bane sword is effectively +7 against evil outsiders, so it should bypass the DR of a Phane, which only requires an Epic weapon to bypass. Why is 'effective enhancement bonus' not an the same as 'enhancement bonus'?

[The Trickster]

Why? Per epic DR,

Per, for example, Bane,

So, a +5 evil outsider bane sword is effectively +7 against evil outsiders, so it should bypass the DR of a Phane, which only requires an Epic weapon to bypass. Why is 'effective enhancement bonus' not an the same as 'enhancement bonus'?

I guess it's like skill points. If a PrC need five ranks in ride, taking two ranks in ride with Skill Focus (Ride) does not count as five ranks. Perhaps the same form of reasoning can be used for weapons as well?

[Glimbur]

I guess it's like skill points. If a PrC need five ranks in ride, taking two ranks in ride with Skill Focus (Ride) does not count as five ranks. Perhaps the same form of reasoning can be used for weapons as well?

Skill ranks have a specific definition. A bonus to a skill is ranks + attribute mod + misc things. I don't see the parallel though, how is 'effective enhancement bonus' not the same thing as 'enhancement bonus'? I could see that a +5 Bane weapon wouldn't get the extra hardness and hp that a real +7 weapon would have, because the effective enhancement bonus is only for purposes of hitting things, but why does it not pierce epic DR?

[georgie_leech]

I guess it's like skill points. If a PrC need five ranks in ride, taking two ranks in ride with Skill Focus (Ride) does not count as five ranks. Perhaps the same form of reasoning can be used for weapons as well?

No, it's an actual increase of enhancement, not a +2 bonus to attack and damage (Skill Focus is a +3 to checks, not 3 additional ranks). A +5 weapon of whatever Bane would indeed be able to pierce Epic DR against the appropriate foe

[Jeraa]

Why? Per epic DR,

Per, for example, Bane,

So, a +5 evil outsider bane sword is effectively +7 against evil outsiders, so it should bypass the DR of a Phane, which only requires an Epic weapon to bypass. Why is 'effective enhancement bonus' not an the same as 'enhancement bonus'?

Because the 3.5 FAQ said so.


For creatures that have damage reduction bypassed by epic weapons, does the weapon have to be a +6 or greater weapon, or can it just have enhancements that push it into the epic category (like a +5 keen shocking burst vorpal longsword)?

To be considered an “epic” magic weapon, the weapon’s actual enhancement bonus must be +6 or greater. Special properties such as keen are treated as equivalent to enhancement bonuses only for the purpose of pricing and for the maximum power of a weapon (for non-epic gaming). A +5 keen shocking burst vorpal longsword is still only a +5 weapon for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction, and thus wouldn’t overcome DR 10/epic.

Granted, it never mentions something like Bane, but it specifically says only the weapons actual enhancement bonus counts. So while a +5 bane weapon may effectively count as a +7 against certain monsters, its actual enhancement bonus is still only +5 and so it will not overcome DR/epic.

[flare'90]

So, a +5 evil outsider bane sword is effectively +7 against evil outsiders, so it should bypass the DR of a Phane, which only requires an Epic weapon to bypass. Why is 'effective enhancement bonus' not an the same as 'enhancement bonus'?

DR /Epic only consider the enhancement bonus of the weapon when it strikes the creature. So, in the case of a +5 Evil Outsider Bane weapon used against a phane, the DR would be pierced. If you use the same weapon against a Ha-Naga (an Aberration the DR hold, because the weapon is only a +5.

[Douglas]

Why? Per epic DR,

Per, for example, Bane,

So, a +5 evil outsider bane sword is effectively +7 against evil outsiders, so it should bypass the DR of a Phane, which only requires an Epic weapon to bypass. Why is 'effective enhancement bonus' not an the same as 'enhancement bonus'?
He was not referring to Bane, he was referring to things like a +5 Keen weapon. +5 Keen costs as per +6, but it doesn't count as epic because the enhancement bonus by itself isn't +6.

Epic DR is pierced if and only if the enhancement bonus, by itself, is +6 or higher. +5 Holy Keen Vorpal is an epic weapon, thanks to the total cost being higher than +10 (it's +13), but since the enhancement bonus is only +5 it does not pierce DR/epic. A plain +6 weapon does pierce DR/epic. A +4 Bane weapon counts as +6 against its bane type, and because that is an actual modification of the enhancement bonus it does count - a +4 Bane weapon will pierce DR/epic against targets that its Bane ability applies to.