Infernal / Abyssal politics in 1st edition

[tooley1chris]

Back in the earlier days of Ad&D the game was pretty heavily persecuted by religion so I don't think the details of hell or the abyss were very well spelled out. I'm projecting to run a campaign involving demon/devil worshippers and am having snags that I hope the brilliant minds here can help untangle.
1. When an evil npc dies what happens to their soul?
A. Goes to hell and transforms into lesser devil?
B. Goes to Hades and becomes Soul Larvae?
1. If so then how does hell repopulate slain
devils?
2. What benefits are there to worshipping devils if
they can't grant power as deities do for clerics?
3. I believe demon worship involves human sacrifice. But again, what would demon worshippers gain?

I'd like to stay close to D&D 1st edition Canon.
Thanks in advance.

Edit: anyone taken up this subject for OSRIC or other "old school " supplements?

[The Rose Dragon]

Back in the earlier days of Ad&D the game was pretty heavily persecuted by religion so I don't think the details of hell or the abyss were very well spelled out. I'm projecting to run a campaign involving demon/devil worshippers and am having snags that I hope the brilliant minds here can help untangle.
1. When an evil npc dies what happens to their soul?
A. Goes to hell and transforms into lesser devil?
B. Goes to Hades and becomes Soul Larvae?
1. If so then how does hell repopulate slain
devils?
2. What benefits are there to worshipping devils if
they can't grant power as deities do for clerics?
3. I believe demon worship involves human sacrifice. But again, what would demon worshippers gain?

For starters, the word is Abyssal, not Abyssmal.

As for the question:

1) It depends on the setting, as well as the beliefs, inclinations and exact alignment of the soul. Some souls go to the appropriate planes for the gods they worship (most possibly to be tortured because, well, evil). Some get persuaded to join either the Baatezu or the Tanar'ri. Some get stolen and forcibly transformed into fiends. I don't remember how yugoloths work.

2) Material benefits, for starters. Baatezu usually have involved networks of mortal cultists, and any devil worshiper that can prove his allegiance can expect cooperatin from others, usually far more immediately than most faiths dedicated to gods do. Also, depending on the setting, devils might be able to grant spells, or other powers, and casters might not need divine sponsorship to cast spells.

3) Besides magical benefits gained from the sacrifice, if any, very little. Tanar'ri rarely have the inclination to build networks of cultists, and they do not usually attract the kind of individual willing to work with others. That is not to say exceptions don't exist, but they are rare compared to what the baatezu offer. One nice thing about being a worshiper of tanar'ri is that they are generally more powerful than their baatezu equivalents, but it's harder to get their cooperation.

[tooley1chris]

For starters, the word is Abyssal, not Abyssmal. Thankfully you appear to know what I meant. But Thanks for correction.


either the Baatezu or the Tanar'ri.
Aren't these SECOND edition creations? Need to stay as close to FIRST edition lore as possible.



2) Material benefits, for starters. Baatezu usually have involved networks of mortal cultists, and any devil worshiper that can prove his allegiance can expect cooperatin from others, usually far more immediately than most faiths dedicated to gods do. Also, depending on the setting, devils might be able to grant spells, or other powers, and casters might not need divine sponsorship to cast spells.

This isn't bad but even in your second edition supplement "Guide to Hell" it declares that only deities can grant followers spells and only Asmodeus has worked around this by making deals with evil deities to grant HIS followers spells.



3) Besides magical benefits gained from the sacrifice
Is this magical benefit mentioned somewhere? (I hope) please expand.

[The Rose Dragon]

Like I said, depends on the setting. Planescape's rules are different from Forgotten Realms's rules (which I played the most, and am most familiar with), which are quite different from Greyhawk's. Any non-setting specific rule, such as will be superseded by setting-specific ones. It would be more helpful if you mentioned hich setting you are working with.

As for the naming conventions, since I don't play AD&D anymore, it is entirely possible I am melding my knowledge of various editions together, but the rules between Manual of the Planes (First Edition) and Planescape (Second Edition), at least, should be largely preserved, even if names aren't.

[meschlum]

Lots of things can happen - it depends on the books you're using.

Per the Monster Manual:

LE respawn as lemures, and can eventually become undead entities.

CE respawn as manes, and can also be upgraded to undead forms, or utterly consumed by greater demons.

NE become larva, which can then be turned into Imps or Quasits by Devil / Demon lords. They are relatively rare and valuable, being collected by Night Hags for the most part.

Quasits can be upgraded to Type I or Type II demons if they please their masters.

Imps presumably can also be upgraded, but this is not stated.


Legends and Lore adds some extras to this:

- Beings with souls (can be affected by Raise Dead) wind up stuck on their plane for eternity, presumably as lemures, manes, or larva.

- Beings with spirits (not affected by Raise Dead, but have deitites) are only temporarily in the plane and will eventually reincarnate. They can also become favored servants of their god, hence turning into demons, devils, and the like.

Yes, this is a rather poor deal for those with souls.


L&L also confirms that any form of worship is enough to get up to 2nd level cleric spells, demigods grant spells of up to 5th level, lesser gods go to 6th, and greater gods go to 7th.

Demon and Devil Lords are explicitly called out as being lesser gods in L&L, so worshipping one of them will grant up to 6th level spells.


Monster Manual II goes into a bit more detail.

- LE beings of insufficient evil become Nupperibo. If they are then slain for the cause of evil, they may (very rarely) return as special lemures who can become lesser devils.

The moral being: don't be too evil if you're LE.


If you're a cleric, to remain in good standing with your deity, you need to perform the proper rites. If you happen to worship a demon lord, this can include human sacrifice - so the explicit benefit is not being blasted by the power you worship, and keeping access to level 3+ spells.


You can, of course tinker with all this - there is no explicit mechanism allowing demons or devils to go up in rank, for instance. An interesting feature is that imps and quasits (as well as night hags) are called out as specifically collecting the souls of individuals. So Demon and Devil lords don't get souls automatically - maybe a demon who delivers sufficient good souls gained via sacrifice will be granted power by its master...

[tooley1chris]

Mesch, you rock!

[tooley1chris]

Is there anywhere I can purchase official TSR PDFs that are searchable instead of crappy scans of material I already own?

[Mr.Bookworm]

Is there anywhere I can purchase official TSR PDFs that are searchable instead of crappy scans of material I already own?

Yep (http://www.dndclassics.com/index.php?affiliate_id=287376). Don't know if it has exactly what you need, as they've been doing a gradual rollout since it was started, but that's the only place to buy them.


As for the naming conventions, since I don't play AD&D anymore, it is entirely possible I am melding my knowledge of various editions together, but the rules between Manual of the Planes (First Edition) and Planescape (Second Edition), at least, should be largely preserved, even if names aren't.

Baatezu and all of the rest are 2nd edition naming conventions, yes. They were made up around the time of all of the "BLACK LEAF NOOOOOO" hysteria.

[tooley1chris]

Just what the doctor ordered. Thanks bookworm!