Hyperbolic time chamber

[Cirrylius]

Yeah, yeah, I know...

My group is in a city which will be attacked by a horde of (mostly low CR) several hundred thousand undead in a couple of weeks. One of us has seized upon the idea of bolstering the number of soldiers in the city by a high-speed training program. He wants to use RAW material to make an extradimensional space of several cubic miles, completely self sufficient (food, air, waste disposal, means to keep the drill sergeants from aging too much), with a temporal rate of 1 day outside-1 year inside. The group has access to several hundred thousand GP, and 1-4 wishes.

I personally think this is an outrageously unlikely plan, mostly due to the time constraints on Crafting, and the lack of rules that would facilitate making something like this, but... *sigh* the player's got... issues, and the only way he'll take a hint is if it's wrapped around a lead pipe. So I'm looking for material that will either prove it's outside our means, or verification that this isn't covered in the non-epic ruleset so I can dump it in the DM's lap, or failing that, a way to actually make the damn thing.

[Rubik]

Since you can Wish for any magic item of any price, use one for a self-resetting trap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm) of Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm). Set it up on the Ethereal Plane, and turn it on. It'll cast the spell every round and expand the size by 180' of diameter. Since time on the plane is a planar trait, and you can choose said traits, make the time flow at the rate you want it. Since time on the plane is much faster, it should expand at the faster rate, as well. Wait a couple of weeks for the trap to do its thing while you're out and about gathering your supplies, and you should have a rather huge demiplane by the end of it.

[edit] You may want to look into the Locate City bomb (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72212), but instead of Locate City, use a Permanencied Heightened Widened Detect Magic for that. Now whenever you concentrate, you deal explosive damage to everything in a rather large cone. Run back and forth and slaughter undead like nobody's business. [edit 2] If you Widen it so that it forms a half-circle rather than a longer cone, you get a rather massive radius of undead death. Otherwise, 120' is a pretty awesome range for it.

[unseenmage]

Yeah, seconding Rubik on the Genesis trap plan.

The biggest problem I see is getting "training" to do anything at all.
IIRC by RAW the only way to gain skill points and feats through experience is to gain Experience Points which are only gained by level appropriate encounters.

There might be variant means in either the DMG or DMG 2 though. But, again IIRC, even those are based on gaining Experience Points first, then "training" them into skills or feats.

Another option is to use those Wishes for Feats and Skill buffs in Custom Magic Items. Feats that grant numerical buffs are just handled by the Custom Magic Item rules as normal, non-numerical Feats in Items has a sidebar in the Arms and Equipment Guide.

Hope some of this helps.

[Rubik]

Yeah, seconding Rubik on the Genesis trap plan.

The biggest problem I see is getting "training" to do anything at all.
IIRC by RAW the only way to gain skill points and feats through experience is to gain Experience Points which are only gained by level appropriate encounters.

There might be variant means in either the DMG or DMG 2 though. But, again IIRC, even those are based on gaining Experience Points first, then "training" them into skills or feats.

Another option is to use those Wishes for Feats and Skill buffs in Custom Magic Items. Feats that grant numerical buffs are just handled by the Custom Magic Item rules as normal, non-numerical Feats in Items has a sidebar in the Arms and Equipment Guide.

Hope some of this helps.Have them fight your summons. Order the summonses to deal nonlethal damage only, and don't summon anything that will cause permanent problems (like a medusa). Other than that, summon slightly more than level-appropriate monsters and go all out on them. They should level up fairly fast.

[unseenmage]

Have them fight your summons. Order the summonses to deal nonlethal damage only, and don't summon anything that will cause permanent problems (like a medusa). Other than that, summon slightly more than level-appropriate monsters and go all out on them. They should level up fairly fast.

"Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise
add to their forces with magic powers." DMG page 37. I suspect it applies here.

[Matticussama]

Is there a particular reason the player wants to train the army? Rather than spending so much time and money on alternate planes with time distortion (which DMs may or may not allow) it might be easier and cheaper to just summon an army to fight for you. Use your Wishes and/or Wealth to use either Gate, Summon Monster IX, or Summon Nature's Ally IX - or all 3. By summoning up some really strong monsters with area attacks to fight for you, you could probably wipe out the enemy much more effectively than training a bunch of peasants. You also don't have to worry about them dieing off in droves fighting against the army.

[zimmerwald1915]

"Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise
add to their forces with magic powers." DMG page 37. I suspect it applies here.
Okay, call the creatures with planar binding or planar ally instead.

[unseenmage]

Okay, call the creatures with planar binding or planar ally instead.

I cannot for the life of me remember of find where, but I recall a line about how gaining xp in 3.5 has to be dependant on overcoming a potentially lethal encounter.

So either your bound creatures have to be given free reign to slaughter your unsuccessful recruits or it probably won't work.

It might be easier to just use Traps. They award xp and can literally be set up as a gauntlet to thin your ranks. In either case, training peasants to give them actual xp will have a rate of failure represented in dead bodies.

Might as well just Plane Shift them to the Prime Material and let them "train" as honest to goodness adventurers.

Edit: Did some Googling as this topic paralleled my interests (Trainable Effigies would be nice).
Check this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185424) out.

[Azoth]

Use a wish for auto reseting magical traps of summon monster (insert number) traps. Now they aren't beating summoned monsters, but are instead gaining experience for defeating a trap with a listed CR.

To cover food/water burn a wish on an auto reseting spell trap of create food + water. Bam instant non exhaustable supply of provisions.

[Rubik]

"Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise
add to their forces with magic powers." DMG page 37. I suspect it applies here.That's because they get XP as if they were going up against you directly. If you're higher level than them, they get appropriate XP as though they overcame YOU if they defeat your minions.

That's the gravy train for training troops, for sure.


I cannot for the life of me remember of find where, but I recall a line about how gaining xp in 3.5 has to be dependant on overcoming a potentially lethal encounter.

So either your bound creatures have to be given free reign to slaughter your unsuccessful recruits or it probably won't work.If you threaten them with punishment (not necessarily damaging, but "You'll have to clean out the privies by hand if you lose!") then they'll have avoided that if they win. You don't need the threat of death hanging over you for an encounter to grant XP. After all, capture or punishment as a penalty also grant XP rewards if you overcome the challenges that would otherwise result in them.

Otherwise, taking down slaver bandits wouldn't grant any XP at all.


It might be easier to just use Traps. They award xp and can literally be set up as a gauntlet to thin your ranks. In either case, training peasants to give them actual xp will have a rate of failure represented in dead bodies. Actually, that's not a bad idea. Traps won't use any of your spells per day. However, you'd need traps for each level you plan on training at so you don't fall behind the curve. That could get expensive.

What about Wishing for trap of Wish that produces rings of three Wishes? Then use those rings to Wish for whatever you want, including summons traps.

[edit] You may want to see about doing character rebuilds for everyone. Give them ToB classes, spellcasting classes, dragonfire adept levels, totemist levels, or bard/marshal classes, depending on which stats they have as their highest.

[unseenmage]

That's because they get XP as if they were going up against you directly. If you're higher level than them, they get appropriate XP as though they overcame YOU if they defeat your minions.

That's the gravy train for training troops, for sure.

Also, if you threaten them with punishment (not necessarily damaging, but "You'll have to clean out the privies by hand if you lose!") then they'll have avoided that if they win. You don't need the threat of death hanging over you for an encounter to grant XP. After all, capture or punishment as a penalty also grant XP rewards if you overcome the challenges that would otherwise result in them.

Otherwise, taking down slaver bandits wouldn't grant any XP at all.

Agreed, mostly.
I posted rashly before reading up on the subject matter.
There's still something nibbling at the back of my mind but it's been near on 10 years since I last played heavily so I just simply cannot remember the source of my unease at training Player controlled NPCs.

I just know there's a really good reason why it's a big no-no... Urrgh, curse my swiss-cheese memory!

Edit:

Actually, that's not a bad idea. Traps won't use any of your spells per day. However, you'd need traps for each level you plan on training at so you don't fall behind the curve. That could get expensive.

Y'know, now I think about it, maybe this is the reason why insane mages build dungeons of death and trap-ey doom.
Perhaps all those trapped corridors without off switches are intended to "train" their minions.
Would even explain why the traps get tougher and tougher the deeper you delve into the dungeon. Use Sending to communicate with your lowest level dudes who're nearest the entrance, have them fetch and carry supplies from out in the world. The dangerous world that gives them more potential xp allowing them to penetrate deeper into the training dungeon and gain prestige among their peers...

This is so going to be either a PC concept or a Campaign idea. :smallwink:

[Rubik]

I edited my previous post. See above.

[unseenmage]

I edited my previous post. See above.

Me too. :smallbiggrin:

[Cirrylius]

Since you can Wish for any magic item of any price, use one for a self-resetting trap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm) of Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm).
I thought you could only do that safely if the item's price was below a certain threshold?



The biggest problem I see is getting "training" to do anything at all.

Sorry, by RAW I meant creating the training ground; we were gonna petition the DM to handwave actual xp calculations, and assume they came out 1st level fighters/warriors/whatevers.


Is there a particular reason the player wants to train the army? Rather than spending so much time and money on alternate planes with time distortion (which DMs may or may not allow) it might be easier and cheaper to just summon an army to fight for you.
The player fixates. And has a poor grasp of uber-opt/cheese.:smallannoyed:

I take your point, though we'll be lucky if we can get more than one caster to use Summon X/Gate/Planar Ally without using our Wishes; high-level NPC's are thin on the ground in our campaign.

[Karnith]

I thought you could only do that safely if the item's price was below a certain threshold?
Nope, 'cause RAW is silly. Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm):

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
[...]
Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
[...]
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)
Notice that creating a nonmagical item has a gp limit, while creating a magic item does not.

[Deophaun]

I would just make a big room, filled with clocks. Each clock has a permanent magic mouth on it, triggered when an appropriate event happens, to say something in regards to that event.

Example: Person near clock casts fireball
Magic Mouth: What are you doing! You're going to kill us all! That fireball was big enough to bring down this whole building! Pelor save us!

And that is how you build a hyperbolic time chamber.

[TuggyNE]

I would just make a big room, filled with clocks. Each clock has a permanent magic mouth on it, triggered when an appropriate event happens, to say something in regards to that event.

Example: Person near clock casts fireball
Magic Mouth: What are you doing! You're going to kill us all! That fireball was big enough to bring down this whole building! Pelor save us!

And that is how you build a hyperbolic time chamber.

Well played.

[Cirrylius]

And that is how you build a hyperbolic time chamber.

Of course, now I must destroy you.:smallannoyed:



:smallwink:

[Drachasor]

I do not see how a time chamber could work given the allotted time you have to make it.

Two weeks is enough time to make a magic item worth 14,000gp. Which is not going to be enough to cover any sort of time dilation device. Short of making a demi-plane there are no alternatives -- and a demi-plane would also require DM approval of time properties. I doubt the demi-plane is an option since if you were that high in level you wouldn't be worried about training up some commoners (or whatever).

Best to focus your energies on other things. What levels and classes are your characters?

[Rubik]

Sorry, by RAW I meant creating the training ground; we were gonna petition the DM to handwave actual xp calculations, and assume they came out 1st level fighters/warriors/whatevers.Is that all you want? Check the DMG II and character rebuilding. It's cheap, it's easy, and it takes a bit of time but not that much.

You'll have what you need and in much less time than you thought.

[Cirrylius]

What levels and classes are your characters?
Barb13/Fighter4, generalist Wizard16/Archmage1, FighterX/Monk17-X, Rogue11/Swash3/Factotum3. The barbarian's player is on the outs with the DM, though, so he's probably gonna get snuffed between games.